well it seems like you guys are getting you wish...no AAA title in 2008 has a in depth complicated crafting system or profession. Looks like guys like me are a dying breed.
I must admit that crafting like in EQ or Vanguard is a killer for me.All those millions of different but yet the same things and than succes and if dont succed you loose your stuff from inventory.Well im really really not into that kind of crafitng that base on pure luck.
On the other hand WoW got 10 millions subs. becouse 5 millions are chines and they play it for gruinding a gold and sell to others.Its a job for them LOL
WoW just suck.And I give up playing years ago.And than BC came out and friend beg me to play again and i did and i stop again.Grinding grinding.Got lvl 70 and stop.You need to go to the same instance zillions time kill mega zilions mobs just for rep.Than go again hunderds of time just to get good gear(heoric mode) so you can go to top instances.And than you need even to have a group that want you becouse nobody wants new guys couse of loot.And in the end you got that gear and what than?
Wery borring and stupid game.It was fun when you level up.Really great game but when you hit the cap its crap.And not to mention there are milions of bot running around and grinding 24/7
I must admit that crafting like in EQ or Vanguard is a killer for me.All those millions of different but yet the same things and than succes and if dont succed you loose your stuff from inventory.Well im really really not into that kind of crafitng that base on pure luck.
There's actually a fair amount of skill behind it. In EQ2's model, it's become even easier over time, and now just consumes more time than it does skill. Sad really. Crafting used to have consequences so if you made an item "pristine", you knew you had some skill.
So it's not just based on pure luck.
Lets say you're right and five million WoW subscriptions (I think this is an inflated number) come from China. Number one, not all of them are gold sellers. Number two, if even just one million of those subscriptions come from the U.S., then it's a more successful MMO than any other MMO currently out there right now. Lets face it, people vote with their wallets, and WoW wins that vote hands down.
That's not to say that everyone should enjoy WoW, but obviously Blizzard did something right with their game design to have so many subscriptions. You can complain about that all you want, but it's just waves breaking against the solid rock that is 10 MILLION WoW subscriptions.
Blizzard just make good game at the right time.Noone was ever close for now so they got their share.Even i play this game and stop and play again only becouse there is no other mmo worth playing.I dont play it anymore couse i hate almost everything when you reach pop cap.Ok.
Let just admit that there are ppl that want to stop playing but dont have any decent game to play so thay play wow.If aoc or maybe warhamer will do something good and take some players from wow is to remain to see.I dont know but i know I will give them a chance and decide if its worth or not of my time and money.
And for 5 milion chinese it was a joke.
As i say many ppl play wow couse the timing was perfect and the game was excellent but it got tired and bored and still there is no game to date that can match it.
The timing on the release of WoW was good, but then what accounts for the rise in subscriptions from 8 to 10 million over the last year alone? Why would you play a game (and pay to play it) that you didn't like?
I've spent a fair amount of time chatting with WoW players, and they're convinced that every other MMO on the horizon will just fail like they always have. Of course, this remains to be seen, but I've not met many WoW players who are ready to dump their WoW accounts and all the time that they've put into them for another MMO, particularly given the track record of the so called "Next Gen" MMORPGs.
WoW is popular because it is one of the best current gen mmo's out right now, and truthly it has had little competition on the same level. Those who want to leave are simply burnt out and tired, want something new.
I do not know why crafting seems like such a big deal to so many people, realistically you could not spend so much time training, discovering, fighting, and undergoing quests and still find the time to be a master craftsmen. If crafting can "kill" the game for you if its too hard, you need to reconsider how you play because apparently you do not like crafting.
not true at all...in SWG i managed 20+ harvesters, was a master chef for 3+ years, and managed to level up a bounty hunter and a jedi, as well as rp and pvp. I did my crafting for maybe 5-8 hours a week..the rest of the time i was doing other things. it was probably why i lasted so long in the game...cause i didnt burn myself out doing quests over and over. I had a business to run which was a nice little side activity, and i had fun doing it
Well from all the information that is available within the public domain, crafting at the moment is overly simplistic and a MAJOR issue for many potential customers.(i.e. those that enjoy crafting)
It is not an issue to those that don't like to craft, they of course see nothing wrong with a childish simplistic crafting system. That suits them perfectly.
The issue is for those of us that enjoy crafting in MMOs. Crafting that involves thought, dedication and depth.
It is the one thing that right now will stop me buying this game. Those that have no interest in crafting won't 'get' this.
Best way to understand how it feels is to imagine that combat in the game was designed to be childish and simplistic, and all that combat involved was to click once then the loser would die and the winner would be rewarded, no variety, no animations no skill etc. How would that appeal to you? as a game?
That is how it feels to read about crafting for those of us interesting in that area of MMOs.
They need to fix this as a priority or risk losing potential customers, and that is an issue that everyone should be concerned about.
I am just stunned that Funcom has shown no understanding of the whole crafting scene.Management just has a blind spot when it comes to crafting.To them crafting in other games is painful...a grind and to be avoided.Therefore it should not be like that in AOC. So........you get the new ..... CRAFTING FOR DUMMYS.
WoW is popular because it is one of the best current gen mmo's out right now, and truthly it has had little competition on the same level. Those who want to leave are simply burnt out and tired, want something new.
I do not know why crafting seems like such a big deal to so many people, realistically you could not spend so much time training, discovering, fighting, and undergoing quests and still find the time to be a master craftsmen. If crafting can "kill" the game for you if its too hard, you need to reconsider how you play because apparently you do not like crafting.
The people who are burned out, have already left. Everyone I talk to in-game, including some good friends of mine, love WoW and are in huge and active guilds. The game is, for all intensive purposes, going very strong.
I don't think people play MMOs because they're interested in a completely "realistic" experience.
Best way to understand how it feels is to imagine that combat in the game was designed to be childish and simplistic, and all that combat involved was to click once then the loser would die and the winner would be rewarded, no variety, no animations no skill etc. How would that appeal to you? as a game?
That's exactly it. I don't think it could be stated any more clearly.
When you make a game, you should appeal to everyone and offer many, many different tasks and things to do in games.
A game where you just swing your sword all day long would get boring in less than an hour. That's why these games have layers and the easy to learn, hard to master games have the most staying power.
Game companies need to look long and hard at the current MMO market and find out what aspects of games players like, and which aspects they don't.
As a general rule though, simplifying an element of a game is almost never a good idea.
Sure wish those questions from a certain post would get answered.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Reading the OP post i would say it sounds ALOT like funcom is copying EQ2/vanguard's crafting template.That is not a bad thing as vanguard's crafting was quite good and also quest driven.Thing i didn't like was vanguard made it a little too hard as you had to sometimes go places that would make a huge timesink to get affiliation with a race.
Some extremely vague stuff in here however on the importance of the crafter.OP said a crafted weapon can be as good or better than a raid drop.From what i gather this will only be true if you need a specific added stat to a weapon that a raid drop doesn't have,otherwise this sounds ALOT like raid drops will still rule,and only the very best crafted weapon can live up to it.This statement also makes it sound like certain stats will change the pace of combat?I cannot see this happening unless they are making combat quite skillfull.By skill i mean you don't just afflict DMG,but you need to think and use whatever TYPE of DMG will wound a specific mob.A simple example would be to add say FIRE dmg to your weapon that would of course be usefull on an ICE based mob.Is this what others gather from the OP's post?on said topic of stats and can be a better weapon on certain bosses?
The mention that they are still balancing,sort of makes me laugh because i have not once ,seen crafters skills balanced to levelling skills.I wouldn't be expecting too much on that statement.
100 slots for crafting is extremely low.I take crafting seriously in every mmorpg i play and i can tell you it usually takes several alts and more like 500 slots to even come close.Not sure why they are limiting players to 100,perhaps hoping for alt subs.
In eq2 the recipe books were EARNED, wich made it a more satisfying experience.You had to kill certain mobs to achieve a recipe book as a drop.Will this game make you earn them? or just sell them off?I didn't really like the books being sold in auction because then players can buy RMT gold and just buy them ,wich isn't earning them.
EQ'2 crafting system was quite intensive using tiers even for its recipes.This meant that even if you have utilized all your resources in trying to make a pristine craft[best stats]you still could end the crafting process and gain a decent crafted weapon.This made you take a risk going for broke or accept a lesser crafted item,again this adds to the fun of crafting.
Looking at the professions it again sounds like there trying to copy the EQ2/vanguard template,however is it as intense as even having crafting gear?Tons of crafting gear in vanguard that really helped alot.
Lots of vague stuff in the OP's post.Crafting to alot of players can earn them SUBS even if the players don't really like the combat engine.However the DEVS have to show the public that they took crafting seriously and didn't just dumb it down for sake of having it.Ths is what we are seeing in PVP content,it's just there with no real effort in it's makeup.I could play this game or any for that matter if crafting is very good/rewarding/satisfying and fun.The same pre req's we expect from the battle engine/combat.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In eq2 the recipe books were EARNED, wich made it a more satisfying experience.You had to kill certain mobs to achieve a recipe book as a drop.Will this game make you earn them? or just sell them off?I didn't really like the books being sold in auction because then players can buy RMT gold and just buy them ,wich isn't earning them. EQ'2 crafting system was quite intensive using tiers even for its recipes.This meant that even if you have utilized all your resources in trying to make a pristine craft[best stats]you still could end the crafting process and gain a decent crafted weapon.This made you take a risk going for broke or accept a lesser crafted item,again this adds to the fun of crafting.
I'm guessing you haven't played EQ2 recently, because the crafting system has been changed so that if you don't make a "pristine" item, you just get all your fuel, and in the case of mastercrafted items, your rare back. It's not a much simpler system.
If players had to earn the books through combat and couldn't sell them, then nobody would have a full collection of recipes.
As for as buying gold goes, that's going to happen no matter what, but limiting players' ability to sell items because you want players to have to "earn" everything through combat is a really bad idea.
I accept your thought on the matter but i still stick to what i said.I didn't say can't sell items i was talkign about the books.That would make crafting very unique to each player as not having every collection makes it better not worse,IMO anyhow.Your theory would allow a broken system ,wich we see in every game, i am sure you don't want this process to continue down the road neverending?
You are corrrect i havn't played EQ2 in about i'd say close to 2 years now.I know it was steadily changing as in contrary to myths SOE does listen to the public and will make a game worse if that's what the players want.
I would like to see the books earned ,no matter how few you may have,i guess you'll just have to work at it if you want many.That's waht i want,i'd like for all to actually have to work hard for there craft and not be given everything or anything.Then the selling of the crafted items becomes truly unique and a truly rewarding system.
It is the same premise as all the players who want player customization,they don't want to all look the same.If there is hundreds of crafters all with every recipe made then the market is just flooded and RMT activity will run rampant.After time goes by eventually the majority will have most recipes,but i think i am not alone ,thinking that it would be cool knowing you have made the ONLY elite weapon for a certain amount of time.Players having to EARN everything it takes to make a recipe would mean the staying time of your unique craft would be alot longer.
If players can just buy the books or even have an online walkththrough of the quest to get the books,what really is the sense of even playing?your just being hand fed,nothing is earned,to me that is a waste of time in a game with no satisfaction,i don't know maybe some players don't want any satisfaction to there playing experience?
This is just what i want ,and i think there is other serious players who want the same,but i am sure there is those who want it EASY and hand fed too,i am just hoping for my ideal that's all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
well it seems like you guys are getting you wish...no AAA title in 2008 has a in depth complicated crafting system or profession. Looks like guys like me are a dying breed.
I must admit that crafting like in EQ or Vanguard is a killer for me.All those millions of different but yet the same things and than succes and if dont succed you loose your stuff from inventory.Well im really really not into that kind of crafitng that base on pure luck.
On the other hand WoW got 10 millions subs. becouse 5 millions are chines and they play it for gruinding a gold and sell to others.Its a job for them LOL
WoW just suck.And I give up playing years ago.And than BC came out and friend beg me to play again and i did and i stop again.Grinding grinding.Got lvl 70 and stop.You need to go to the same instance zillions time kill mega zilions mobs just for rep.Than go again hunderds of time just to get good gear(heoric mode) so you can go to top instances.And than you need even to have a group that want you becouse nobody wants new guys couse of loot.And in the end you got that gear and what than?
Wery borring and stupid game.It was fun when you level up.Really great game but when you hit the cap its crap.And not to mention there are milions of bot running around and grinding 24/7
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
There's actually a fair amount of skill behind it. In EQ2's model, it's become even easier over time, and now just consumes more time than it does skill. Sad really. Crafting used to have consequences so if you made an item "pristine", you knew you had some skill.
So it's not just based on pure luck.
Lets say you're right and five million WoW subscriptions (I think this is an inflated number) come from China. Number one, not all of them are gold sellers. Number two, if even just one million of those subscriptions come from the U.S., then it's a more successful MMO than any other MMO currently out there right now. Lets face it, people vote with their wallets, and WoW wins that vote hands down.
That's not to say that everyone should enjoy WoW, but obviously Blizzard did something right with their game design to have so many subscriptions. You can complain about that all you want, but it's just waves breaking against the solid rock that is 10 MILLION WoW subscriptions.
Blizzard just make good game at the right time.Noone was ever close for now so they got their share.Even i play this game and stop and play again only becouse there is no other mmo worth playing.I dont play it anymore couse i hate almost everything when you reach pop cap.Ok.
Let just admit that there are ppl that want to stop playing but dont have any decent game to play so thay play wow.If aoc or maybe warhamer will do something good and take some players from wow is to remain to see.I dont know but i know I will give them a chance and decide if its worth or not of my time and money.
And for 5 milion chinese it was a joke.
As i say many ppl play wow couse the timing was perfect and the game was excellent but it got tired and bored and still there is no game to date that can match it.
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
The timing on the release of WoW was good, but then what accounts for the rise in subscriptions from 8 to 10 million over the last year alone? Why would you play a game (and pay to play it) that you didn't like?
I've spent a fair amount of time chatting with WoW players, and they're convinced that every other MMO on the horizon will just fail like they always have. Of course, this remains to be seen, but I've not met many WoW players who are ready to dump their WoW accounts and all the time that they've put into them for another MMO, particularly given the track record of the so called "Next Gen" MMORPGs.
WoW is popular because it is one of the best current gen mmo's out right now, and truthly it has had little competition on the same level. Those who want to leave are simply burnt out and tired, want something new.
I do not know why crafting seems like such a big deal to so many people, realistically you could not spend so much time training, discovering, fighting, and undergoing quests and still find the time to be a master craftsmen. If crafting can "kill" the game for you if its too hard, you need to reconsider how you play because apparently you do not like crafting.
not true at all...in SWG i managed 20+ harvesters, was a master chef for 3+ years, and managed to level up a bounty hunter and a jedi, as well as rp and pvp. I did my crafting for maybe 5-8 hours a week..the rest of the time i was doing other things. it was probably why i lasted so long in the game...cause i didnt burn myself out doing quests over and over. I had a business to run which was a nice little side activity, and i had fun doing it
Well from all the information that is available within the public domain, crafting at the moment is overly simplistic and a MAJOR issue for many potential customers.(i.e. those that enjoy crafting)
It is not an issue to those that don't like to craft, they of course see nothing wrong with a childish simplistic crafting system. That suits them perfectly.
The issue is for those of us that enjoy crafting in MMOs. Crafting that involves thought, dedication and depth.
It is the one thing that right now will stop me buying this game. Those that have no interest in crafting won't 'get' this.
Best way to understand how it feels is to imagine that combat in the game was designed to be childish and simplistic, and all that combat involved was to click once then the loser would die and the winner would be rewarded, no variety, no animations no skill etc. How would that appeal to you? as a game?
That is how it feels to read about crafting for those of us interesting in that area of MMOs.
They need to fix this as a priority or risk losing potential customers, and that is an issue that everyone should be concerned about.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I am just stunned that Funcom has shown no understanding of the whole crafting scene.Management just has a blind spot when it comes to crafting.To them crafting in other games is painful...a grind and to be avoided.Therefore it should not be like that in AOC. So........you get the new ..... CRAFTING FOR DUMMYS.
The people who are burned out, have already left. Everyone I talk to in-game, including some good friends of mine, love WoW and are in huge and active guilds. The game is, for all intensive purposes, going very strong.
I don't think people play MMOs because they're interested in a completely "realistic" experience.
That's exactly it. I don't think it could be stated any more clearly.
When you make a game, you should appeal to everyone and offer many, many different tasks and things to do in games.
A game where you just swing your sword all day long would get boring in less than an hour. That's why these games have layers and the easy to learn, hard to master games have the most staying power.
Game companies need to look long and hard at the current MMO market and find out what aspects of games players like, and which aspects they don't.
As a general rule though, simplifying an element of a game is almost never a good idea.
OOO Goodie a indepth post all about CRAFTING..
Forgive me while I try to control my self....
Sure wish those questions from a certain post would get answered.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Reading the OP post i would say it sounds ALOT like funcom is copying EQ2/vanguard's crafting template.That is not a bad thing as vanguard's crafting was quite good and also quest driven.Thing i didn't like was vanguard made it a little too hard as you had to sometimes go places that would make a huge timesink to get affiliation with a race.
Some extremely vague stuff in here however on the importance of the crafter.OP said a crafted weapon can be as good or better than a raid drop.From what i gather this will only be true if you need a specific added stat to a weapon that a raid drop doesn't have,otherwise this sounds ALOT like raid drops will still rule,and only the very best crafted weapon can live up to it.This statement also makes it sound like certain stats will change the pace of combat?I cannot see this happening unless they are making combat quite skillfull.By skill i mean you don't just afflict DMG,but you need to think and use whatever TYPE of DMG will wound a specific mob.A simple example would be to add say FIRE dmg to your weapon that would of course be usefull on an ICE based mob.Is this what others gather from the OP's post?on said topic of stats and can be a better weapon on certain bosses?
The mention that they are still balancing,sort of makes me laugh because i have not once ,seen crafters skills balanced to levelling skills.I wouldn't be expecting too much on that statement.
100 slots for crafting is extremely low.I take crafting seriously in every mmorpg i play and i can tell you it usually takes several alts and more like 500 slots to even come close.Not sure why they are limiting players to 100,perhaps hoping for alt subs.
In eq2 the recipe books were EARNED, wich made it a more satisfying experience.You had to kill certain mobs to achieve a recipe book as a drop.Will this game make you earn them? or just sell them off?I didn't really like the books being sold in auction because then players can buy RMT gold and just buy them ,wich isn't earning them.
EQ'2 crafting system was quite intensive using tiers even for its recipes.This meant that even if you have utilized all your resources in trying to make a pristine craft[best stats]you still could end the crafting process and gain a decent crafted weapon.This made you take a risk going for broke or accept a lesser crafted item,again this adds to the fun of crafting.
Looking at the professions it again sounds like there trying to copy the EQ2/vanguard template,however is it as intense as even having crafting gear?Tons of crafting gear in vanguard that really helped alot.
Lots of vague stuff in the OP's post.Crafting to alot of players can earn them SUBS even if the players don't really like the combat engine.However the DEVS have to show the public that they took crafting seriously and didn't just dumb it down for sake of having it.Ths is what we are seeing in PVP content,it's just there with no real effort in it's makeup.I could play this game or any for that matter if crafting is very good/rewarding/satisfying and fun.The same pre req's we expect from the battle engine/combat.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm guessing you haven't played EQ2 recently, because the crafting system has been changed so that if you don't make a "pristine" item, you just get all your fuel, and in the case of mastercrafted items, your rare back. It's not a much simpler system.
If players had to earn the books through combat and couldn't sell them, then nobody would have a full collection of recipes.
As for as buying gold goes, that's going to happen no matter what, but limiting players' ability to sell items because you want players to have to "earn" everything through combat is a really bad idea.
I accept your thought on the matter but i still stick to what i said.I didn't say can't sell items i was talkign about the books.That would make crafting very unique to each player as not having every collection makes it better not worse,IMO anyhow.Your theory would allow a broken system ,wich we see in every game, i am sure you don't want this process to continue down the road neverending?
You are corrrect i havn't played EQ2 in about i'd say close to 2 years now.I know it was steadily changing as in contrary to myths SOE does listen to the public and will make a game worse if that's what the players want.
I would like to see the books earned ,no matter how few you may have,i guess you'll just have to work at it if you want many.That's waht i want,i'd like for all to actually have to work hard for there craft and not be given everything or anything.Then the selling of the crafted items becomes truly unique and a truly rewarding system.
It is the same premise as all the players who want player customization,they don't want to all look the same.If there is hundreds of crafters all with every recipe made then the market is just flooded and RMT activity will run rampant.After time goes by eventually the majority will have most recipes,but i think i am not alone ,thinking that it would be cool knowing you have made the ONLY elite weapon for a certain amount of time.Players having to EARN everything it takes to make a recipe would mean the staying time of your unique craft would be alot longer.
If players can just buy the books or even have an online walkththrough of the quest to get the books,what really is the sense of even playing?your just being hand fed,nothing is earned,to me that is a waste of time in a game with no satisfaction,i don't know maybe some players don't want any satisfaction to there playing experience?
This is just what i want ,and i think there is other serious players who want the same,but i am sure there is those who want it EASY and hand fed too,i am just hoping for my ideal that's all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.