The question is "what sort of experience system is best". A good game will work with most any experience system. Pen and paper players didn't care much what level they were, they didn't grind, the gm was good enough to make all levels fun, it didn't get more fun as the game went on, it was equally fun amongst all levels. Think of it like playing quake. Would anyone cheat to get to the last boss and then throw the game away after 10 minutes of play? No. You'd be missing out on all the fun. Its the whole journey of getting to the end that you are playing for. The boss is just the feel good moment of triumph at the end, the sizzle of the steak. The gamers of today somehow have lost their way and think that the point of these games is to get to max level (or max skill). And thats what has to be fixed. A game should be equally fun at 1 as at 50. A game should entice you to play 1-50 because buying a maxxed character will make you miss out on all the fun. The point of play should be to have fun, not to get to some max level. You shouldn't care what level (or skill) you are at. Sadly, games aren't good enough to achieve this .... yet.
Good post! As an avid PnP player I share your view. No matter what advancement scheme or lack thereof the game has/had, the bottom line was and is enthralling your players and making it an enjoyable and fun 'voyage' through your DM/GM's creations. But both computer games and PnP games can still suffer from the instant-gratification and railroading syndromes, it's just more noticeable in CRPGs.
Either system can work: skill-point based (like we have in FPS games) or skill-based RPG (like TES series)
MMORPGs dont use either- they are sharply vertical. This causes veterans and newbies not to benefit from each other's company at all for adventuring, etc.
Games do not have to follow real life- but it makes no sense too me I buy an mmorpg to play with my friend but if he outlvls me I'm screwed?
Now take NWN2. Yeah i know, i know most anyone hates NWN2. But what is interestng my friend was like lvl 5 and I was high lvl yet we partied together fine. Wish most mmorpgs consider this
City of Heroes had sidekicking. There's a handful of skill-based RPGs that have it (fun teaming)
I'm also for having all my skills unlocked on one character (like in UO, EVE, FPS games).
Anyway finally found mmorpgs that make me happy. I just stick to skill-based RPGs and FPS games. Also play coop RPGs since those seem to realize what online gaming is about (friends!!!!)
Originally posted by CactusmanX A lot of people seem to be mentioning TES series, Was I the only one that found having to hit things repeatedly or use skills repeatedly to level them up annoying and not fun. To me it is practically the same as getting xp but for one skill at a time, it is just reshaping the grind. I couldn't enjoy that game without cheating and making my character max in all the skills I wanted, so I didn't have to worry about leveling them. Although the game levels with you, you can still gimp your character, there is a very counter-intuitive formula to leveling properly. I really don't like levels, but skills are no improvement, you may have more options but you still have to grind to get them. Oh well I have just kind of given up on all games in general
hehe yeah Skill-based RPGs can be much more grindy infact.
The great thing about them is the freeform aspect to unlock any skill on one avatar. Another bonus is that player made quests work much better in a skill-based game vs a quest-driven game
Neither system, mathematically, is superior to the other (skill-point vs skill-based)
However, if the game is Developer-Quest driven (linear), then skill-point or level-based system is the way to go
If the game is sandbox- whereas players can create quests for each other or simply ignore quests altogether, then skill-based is way to go
Skill-point or level-based gels well with quests for mathematical cohesion (award XP, level up)
It all boils down to this:
skill-based RPG rewards players for skills THEY REALLY used. If atrophy is in-play, then we have an even more accurate picture of what this player can do
skill-point or level-based RPG rewards players for anything they find fun. However, it only thrives at its best under Developer driven content. So for linear / quest driven games this is the way to go
Give Crackdown a try if you have an xbox360 (skill-based coop RPG). Much better example of a true skill-based RPg then TES. It feels a lot less redundant
I don't really care for TES skill system, so, what about still gaining exp, but using said exp to advance your character by buying/upgrading skills for your class.
ex: i'm lvl 5 and need 1000 exp for lvl 6. In theory i could collect those 1000 exp and either A) lvl to 6 gaining a few hps for the lvl. use some of those points to buy some lvl 1-5 skills or upgade exisiting skills.
From the above example lets say i choose and upgrade my sword skill to lvl 5 for 500 points (lets say each lvl is 100 exp). Then I would only have 500 exp towards lvl 6 unless i decided to spend those on skills as well.
dunno if it would actually work well but just thought i'd offer my 2cp.
I disagree with you, XP is needed in an mmo. I think the reason they use XP is because they want the games to seem more like real life in a way. Say you're going into the military, you go up in rank as you gain experience. Its the same in trade schools, as you get more experience they give you higher level classes. In learning martial arts you get higher belts as you get more experience. life is all about experiences and what you get out of them. So I think in this aspect XP is needed in an MMO.
The problem we face in MMO's is while you're character is learning and leveling, the mobs are pretty static. They're in the same basic place all the time, and they only move out of their "zone" when you aggro them. To make an MMO more interesting would be to make the NPC's and mobs actually act like real people and beasts. An mmo that the mobs act more like single player games, the best one I can think of is Oblivian. You had to meet people at a specific time, shop owners would be in the bar or at home, or walking the streets sometimes. This is how MMO's can be more realistic and not seem so dull because it would be like you're going after a more living breathing thing. I know FPS' and such have spawns and for the most part in most games you know mobs are going to come from a particular area, but its getting better. MMO's really don't have AI, what AI they have is almost like pacman was...if they see you they follow you but in an MMO they only follow a certain distance then they either move back or spawn back to their "zone" . Maybe right now it would be to difficult to make a huge game that had AI like in single player games? Maybe we don't have the bandwith right now? I know some MMO's you have the mobs on everyone specific computer and they just load from your computer when needed, so maybe to make more realistic AI they would have to have the mobs on the server, and to do that they would need more bandwith?
I think the first company to make an MMO with decent AI...monsters that move and hunt smaller monsters, animals that hibernate or move to a different climate when it gets to hot or cold, bad guys that will walk a look like their busy, or if their on patrol they'll make their rounds or have conversations with other guards. Also realistic weather change, rain in the winter or in a tropical area, earthquakes, volcanos, twisters...etc. Once MMO's get to that level then I think they'll be very entertaining because it won't seem like you're just playing a game, it'll see more real. A lot of the FPS' now are pretty realistic in many ways (even they can get better), I think MMO's will go in that direction at some point. There is a hump I think devs have to get over before they can do this, so until then they're doing the best they can with what they can do. MMO's are still pretty new, look now long it took for single player games to get as far as they have. What can be done besides just grinding, I have no idea right now. Maybe somewhere out there is a dev that is working on a game that will break the rules of today's MMO's? Maybe that game is Spore, or Stargate Worlds or Star Trek Online (when it starts back up again)? Maybe its a game we haven't even heard of yet because its just on paper? One thing I do know is the future of computer gaming is going to be good, it just takes time.
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills
There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought
Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
Experience (Exp) is SUPPOSED to be the rate at which an adventurer adapts and becomes wiser to the situations that occur and can occur around him.. An EXPERIENCED adventurer is one that KNOWS what to expect from certain places or things...
I believe that experience in these MMO's should not be centered as a whole or "level" type thing because people can be EXPERIENCED in many different things..
I think that all exp should go to a certain skill or weapon specialty.. Kind of like AO, but instead of spending points, the player has to actually use the weapon AND kill monsters with that weapon to gain experience with it.. BUT it doesnt stop there... There needs to also be a pool for each type of monster that the player defeats, because not all monsters react the same way to the same weapons..
They need to make a system where the adventurer can actually become experienced rather than just a "level" of strength... It makes no sense to spend POINTS on strength and agility.. They should have to be gained like in GTA: San Andreas where you have to lift weights and etc..
Exp should also be gained as time progresses, because regaurdless of where you are and where you have been, you are always learning.. Kind of like EvE where you are constantly gaining points, but the exp gained this way would only go into your WIS stat or perhaps a perception stat or such, pretty much showing how experieinced you are in life itself..
Since skills normally progress with practice and time, I'd like to see those as the criteria. Anyone who's played Dungeon Siege will know about the 'the more you use this, the better you get at it' approach, I really liked that. Also, Time-based XP. And only in-game time, not 24-hour training like EVE, man I hated that ('crap, it's 3 o' clock and I'm at work! Hey honey, can you log in and switch me over?). Of course, you'd have to figure a way around AFKers, but....
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
well, i have to admit, that would be a pretty good idea cept not many people would like to specialize in more than one area in any givin stat. people who like to 1-hit kill would go for power and people who like not being hit at all would go for dex. but who would like it if u had to do both just to get stronger?? everyone would be the same.
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
It would go a long way towards not allowing everyone to pick the same build. However, unlike most MMOs, you wouldn't be able to max every skill in your class, and you might be able to pick up some skills from another class, but at a higher cost or lower skill cap.
I'm just concerned that in a pure skill based game, a lot of people do tend to pick what they see as "the most powerful build", and everyone ends up being a battlemage.
Retaining a loose class system would at least force a little diversity.
Trust me if I had the money I have ideas for games (but I won't mention them on here).
Pure skill games would also shy away people who aren't really good at pure skill games. I like the idea of having a game that takes skill, but one that also takes brains and tactics. The problem I have with online FPS games is that most people are just run and shoot and they use little tactics. If they're quick at aiming (or have a good cheat) they dominate. I try and use skill like using cover, and sneaking around and I get slaughtered. If you use those same tactics in a real battlefield you're dead but since people in a game just spawn back to life with no adverse effects they don't care. Even games like Americas Army where if you die you have to sit out for the rest of the game, some people use little cover, but its still better because if you get a good team you do work well together. A good MMO skill based mmo would have to have good adverse effects if you die, a good cover system and also since it is skill based you can do head shots. But this game would have to be difficult to just run, jump and fire like in most FPS online games like counter strike.
Also another thing that I was thinking, for more immersion, when you go and talk to an NPC instead of reading quests and such you actually hear voice. I know this would take more bandwith and a bigger download, but it would definitly help. How many people here just pick up quests without reading the story and then do the quest because they don't want to read a book in between quests?
Earth & Beyond had a nice way of leveling. You could do the traditional grind and combat, but they also had the option of getting XP through trade and also through exploration. it really let you do what you wanted to do and it was fun.
not everyone likes combat but in all too many games they force you to do it ::cough wow::
leveling through exploration or trade is always nice. and i dont mean exploration like "you discovered this part of the city" but true exploration, finding easter eggs and classic/fabled spots in the game that arent easy to come by.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
Originally posted by Guintu Originally posted by vajuras sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb. Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do. I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better. In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills
There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought
Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
Originally posted by Guintu Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by Guintu
Originally posted by vajuras
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb. Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do. I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better. In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room. Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills
There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought
Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
I think an MMO in the way of COD4 or Battlefield 2142 would get old too because it would just be like playing a regular FPS online shooter. There has to be some kind of mission system, a reason for playing, not just to kill or to capture something or plant a bomb.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
I was just saying that a game with no quests and just skill isn't good either. If you make a game thats just skill then you might as well just play COD4. The things I have against online FPS games are the gamers itself. Most of them are skilled, but skilled at just running out, jumping like a punch of sissies and killing people. I'd want a game that if your not good at running, jumping and killing, you can use strategy. The game that works best that was is Americas Army, because if you die you have to sit out the rest of the round, but even that doesn't stop the run, jump killers all the time. If there is going to be a good MMOFPS there would have to be quests of some kind and I can think of many types of quests that would work well in this type of game. The best idea would be to look at single player FPS' and have a quest system that has objectives like these have. Single player FPS' have a way to go, but their more dynamic than your average MMORPG.
ok im totally nuetral in which one is better, but if u ask me FPS online is probably alot more fun than MMORPG's soley because no one in the right mind would want to grind for hours and hours in which if u aint totally dedicated to lvling, will just either pay someone to do it or get a bot ( basically why Lineage 2 is nothing but botters and powerleveling) and i disagree that WoW is doing anything new and the grinding sucks as bad as any other MMORPG.
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
There are enough allegations of GM favoritism and power abuse when they AREN'T allowed to hand stuff out. You want to staff your game with people that can give away XP? .............. there's no other way to spell that but M I S T A K E
_______________________________ PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
I don't think you can make a MMORPG without grinding. I haven't seen one yet. The trick is to make grinding FUN and WOW's approach is a step in the right direction.
The idea isn't taking away grinding, but making the grinding fun and more challenging. Life is one big grind, but if you enjoy your job it doesn't seem like it. The way to make an MMO to seem less of a grind is to make the game play of MMO's more like the game play of a good single player game. Maybe thats not being done in 3D mmo's because of bandwith and processing power of todays computers but Devs can start out making games like this in top down games like Diablo style game. You start out in that way and then when technology catches up you go to 3D. Think of an MMO that has some aspects of GTA, and some of Hitman and Thief, a little bit of Half-Life 2 thrown in. This would make games more dynamic and feel less like a grindfest.
Easy rinic? Ya right.... There are enough allegations of GM favoritism and power abuse when they AREN'T allowed to hand stuff out. You want to staff your game with people that can give away XP? .............. there's no other way to spell that but M I S T A K E
So someone cheats and they get fired. Makes sense to me?
Comments
Good post! As an avid PnP player I share your view. No matter what advancement scheme or lack thereof the game has/had, the bottom line was and is enthralling your players and making it an enjoyable and fun 'voyage' through your DM/GM's creations. But both computer games and PnP games can still suffer from the instant-gratification and railroading syndromes, it's just more noticeable in CRPGs.
Either system can work: skill-point based (like we have in FPS games) or skill-based RPG (like TES series)
MMORPGs dont use either- they are sharply vertical. This causes veterans and newbies not to benefit from each other's company at all for adventuring, etc.
Games do not have to follow real life- but it makes no sense too me I buy an mmorpg to play with my friend but if he outlvls me I'm screwed?
Now take NWN2. Yeah i know, i know most anyone hates NWN2. But what is interestng my friend was like lvl 5 and I was high lvl yet we partied together fine. Wish most mmorpgs consider this
City of Heroes had sidekicking. There's a handful of skill-based RPGs that have it (fun teaming)
I'm also for having all my skills unlocked on one character (like in UO, EVE, FPS games).
Anyway finally found mmorpgs that make me happy. I just stick to skill-based RPGs and FPS games. Also play coop RPGs since those seem to realize what online gaming is about (friends!!!!)
hehe yeah Skill-based RPGs can be much more grindy infact.
The great thing about them is the freeform aspect to unlock any skill on one avatar. Another bonus is that player made quests work much better in a skill-based game vs a quest-driven game
Neither system, mathematically, is superior to the other (skill-point vs skill-based)
However, if the game is Developer-Quest driven (linear), then skill-point or level-based system is the way to go
If the game is sandbox- whereas players can create quests for each other or simply ignore quests altogether, then skill-based is way to go
Skill-point or level-based gels well with quests for mathematical cohesion (award XP, level up)
It all boils down to this:
skill-based RPG rewards players for skills THEY REALLY used. If atrophy is in-play, then we have an even more accurate picture of what this player can do
skill-point or level-based RPG rewards players for anything they find fun. However, it only thrives at its best under Developer driven content. So for linear / quest driven games this is the way to go
Give Crackdown a try if you have an xbox360 (skill-based coop RPG). Much better example of a true skill-based RPg then TES. It feels a lot less redundant
I don't really care for TES skill system, so, what about still gaining exp, but using said exp to advance your character by buying/upgrading skills for your class.
ex: i'm lvl 5 and need 1000 exp for lvl 6. In theory i could collect those 1000 exp and either A) lvl to 6 gaining a few hps for the lvl.
use some of those points to buy some lvl 1-5 skills or upgade exisiting skills.
From the above example lets say i choose
and upgrade my sword skill to lvl 5 for 500 points (lets say each lvl is 100 exp). Then I would only have 500 exp towards lvl 6 unless i decided to spend those on skills as well.
dunno if it would actually work well but just thought i'd offer my 2cp.
Garland~
I disagree with you, XP is needed in an mmo. I think the reason they use XP is because they want the games to seem more like real life in a way. Say you're going into the military, you go up in rank as you gain experience. Its the same in trade schools, as you get more experience they give you higher level classes. In learning martial arts you get higher belts as you get more experience. life is all about experiences and what you get out of them. So I think in this aspect XP is needed in an MMO.
The problem we face in MMO's is while you're character is learning and leveling, the mobs are pretty static. They're in the same basic place all the time, and they only move out of their "zone" when you aggro them. To make an MMO more interesting would be to make the NPC's and mobs actually act like real people and beasts. An mmo that the mobs act more like single player games, the best one I can think of is Oblivian. You had to meet people at a specific time, shop owners would be in the bar or at home, or walking the streets sometimes. This is how MMO's can be more realistic and not seem so dull because it would be like you're going after a more living breathing thing. I know FPS' and such have spawns and for the most part in most games you know mobs are going to come from a particular area, but its getting better. MMO's really don't have AI, what AI they have is almost like pacman was...if they see you they follow you but in an MMO they only follow a certain distance then they either move back or spawn back to their "zone" . Maybe right now it would be to difficult to make a huge game that had AI like in single player games? Maybe we don't have the bandwith right now? I know some MMO's you have the mobs on everyone specific computer and they just load from your computer when needed, so maybe to make more realistic AI they would have to have the mobs on the server, and to do that they would need more bandwith?
I think the first company to make an MMO with decent AI...monsters that move and hunt smaller monsters, animals that hibernate or move to a different climate when it gets to hot or cold, bad guys that will walk a look like their busy, or if their on patrol they'll make their rounds or have conversations with other guards. Also realistic weather change, rain in the winter or in a tropical area, earthquakes, volcanos, twisters...etc. Once MMO's get to that level then I think they'll be very entertaining because it won't seem like you're just playing a game, it'll see more real. A lot of the FPS' now are pretty realistic in many ways (even they can get better), I think MMO's will go in that direction at some point. There is a hump I think devs have to get over before they can do this, so until then they're doing the best they can with what they can do. MMO's are still pretty new, look now long it took for single player games to get as far as they have. What can be done besides just grinding, I have no idea right now. Maybe somewhere out there is a dev that is working on a game that will break the rules of today's MMO's? Maybe that game is Spore, or Stargate Worlds or Star Trek Online (when it starts back up again)? Maybe its a game we haven't even heard of yet because its just on paper? One thing I do know is the future of computer gaming is going to be good, it just takes time.
sorry if I were to make one correction to my windy posts I would say level-based / skill-point systems do not necessarily have to be quest driven. I'm thinking about Call of Duty 4 / Battlefield 2142 whereas there are no quests- simply kill your fellow man and unlock skills
There may be ways to get player created quests happening in these systems as well but it would take some thought
Personally I like both sandbox & quests. Quests to help me get on my feet in a new game then transition into Sandbox as I get more experienced.
Experience (Exp) is SUPPOSED to be the rate at which an adventurer adapts and becomes wiser to the situations that occur and can occur around him.. An EXPERIENCED adventurer is one that KNOWS what to expect from certain places or things...
I believe that experience in these MMO's should not be centered as a whole or "level" type thing because people can be EXPERIENCED in many different things..
I think that all exp should go to a certain skill or weapon specialty.. Kind of like AO, but instead of spending points, the player has to actually use the weapon AND kill monsters with that weapon to gain experience with it.. BUT it doesnt stop there... There needs to also be a pool for each type of monster that the player defeats, because not all monsters react the same way to the same weapons..
They need to make a system where the adventurer can actually become experienced rather than just a "level" of strength... It makes no sense to spend POINTS on strength and agility.. They should have to be gained like in GTA: San Andreas where you have to lift weights and etc..
Exp should also be gained as time progresses, because regaurdless of where you are and where you have been, you are always learning.. Kind of like EvE where you are constantly gaining points, but the exp gained this way would only go into your WIS stat or perhaps a perception stat or such, pretty much showing how experieinced you are in life itself..
Since skills normally progress with practice and time, I'd like to see those as the criteria. Anyone who's played Dungeon Siege will know about the 'the more you use this, the better you get at it' approach, I really liked that. Also, Time-based XP. And only in-game time, not 24-hour training like EVE, man I hated that ('crap, it's 3 o' clock and I'm at work! Hey honey, can you log in and switch me over?). Of course, you'd have to figure a way around AFKers, but....
Evil will always win, because Good is dumb.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
well, i have to admit, that would be a pretty good idea cept not many people would like to specialize in more than one area in any givin stat. people who like to 1-hit kill would go for power and people who like not being hit at all would go for dex. but who would like it if u had to do both just to get stronger?? everyone would be the same.
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
What do people think about class+skills?
It would go a long way towards not allowing everyone to pick the same build. However, unlike most MMOs, you wouldn't be able to max every skill in your class, and you might be able to pick up some skills from another class, but at a higher cost or lower skill cap.
I'm just concerned that in a pure skill based game, a lot of people do tend to pick what they see as "the most powerful build", and everyone ends up being a battlemage.
Retaining a loose class system would at least force a little diversity.
man seriuosly, we really should become game developers, the stuff we all talk about can really help the MMO community
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
Trust me if I had the money I have ideas for games (but I won't mention them on here).
Pure skill games would also shy away people who aren't really good at pure skill games. I like the idea of having a game that takes skill, but one that also takes brains and tactics. The problem I have with online FPS games is that most people are just run and shoot and they use little tactics. If they're quick at aiming (or have a good cheat) they dominate. I try and use skill like using cover, and sneaking around and I get slaughtered. If you use those same tactics in a real battlefield you're dead but since people in a game just spawn back to life with no adverse effects they don't care. Even games like Americas Army where if you die you have to sit out for the rest of the game, some people use little cover, but its still better because if you get a good team you do work well together. A good MMO skill based mmo would have to have good adverse effects if you die, a good cover system and also since it is skill based you can do head shots. But this game would have to be difficult to just run, jump and fire like in most FPS online games like counter strike.
Also another thing that I was thinking, for more immersion, when you go and talk to an NPC instead of reading quests and such you actually hear voice. I know this would take more bandwith and a bigger download, but it would definitly help. How many people here just pick up quests without reading the story and then do the quest because they don't want to read a book in between quests?
Earth & Beyond had a nice way of leveling. You could do the traditional grind and combat, but they also had the option of getting XP through trade and also through exploration. it really let you do what you wanted to do and it was fun.
not everyone likes combat but in all too many games they force you to do it ::cough wow::
leveling through exploration or trade is always nice. and i dont mean exploration like "you discovered this part of the city" but true exploration, finding easter eggs and classic/fabled spots in the game that arent easy to come by.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
Player driven quests would be interesting but it was tried on Face of Mankind and was really bad, but then again the quest system on that game was pretty lame. Its a nice idea but it would be really hard to do.
I really think if AI in MMO's was more mature like single player games are now then the games would be much better.
In RF online you don't put stats to anything you just get experience for the weapons or powers you use. That is an interesting way. The more you use something the more experience you get, and if you don't use a say a sword you don't get experience in any sword abilities. I agree putting stats in str, and dex is kind of out dated and isn't really needed. It should be more like if you sword fight a lot you'll gain more strength as you fight instead of having to put stats in it when you level up. All your stats should go up as you do something that uses that stat.
you misread my post I wasn't suggesting porting Call of Duty 4 into an MMORPG. interesting, point about RF Online tho
I didn't say you said their should be a port of COD4. I said if there were games MMO's of pure skill like COD4 is, it would get dull. Unlocking items doesn't really make sense, if you find an item then you should be able to learn and use it. You unlocked the BFG gun...why can't you just find the BFG gun then pick learn which would take a minute or to that you're vulnerable so you have to find a spot thats somewhat safe. If after learning you're not strong enough to use it you can't pick it up or if the discharge is to much you'll get thrown across the room.
Yeah thats where RF online is pretty cool. It has a couple downfalls though like having to pay $150,000 just for opening up a warehouse and to take out stuff it costs you as well.
I'm not sure I follow you on the CoD4 point but that's okay I guess....
I was pointing out XP driven games are fun- even in the absense of quests.
I was just saying that a game with no quests and just skill isn't good either. If you make a game thats just skill then you might as well just play COD4. The things I have against online FPS games are the gamers itself. Most of them are skilled, but skilled at just running out, jumping like a punch of sissies and killing people. I'd want a game that if your not good at running, jumping and killing, you can use strategy. The game that works best that was is Americas Army, because if you die you have to sit out the rest of the round, but even that doesn't stop the run, jump killers all the time. If there is going to be a good MMOFPS there would have to be quests of some kind and I can think of many types of quests that would work well in this type of game. The best idea would be to look at single player FPS' and have a quest system that has objectives like these have. Single player FPS' have a way to go, but their more dynamic than your average MMORPG.
I don't think you can make a MMORPG without grinding. I haven't seen one yet.
The trick is to make grinding FUN and WOW's approach is a step in the right direction.
Like people tell you, you are making the assumption that XP is necessary or even at all beneficial to MMOs.
It certainly isn't necessary, and personally I don't think it's beneficial either.
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
ok im totally nuetral in which one is better, but if u ask me FPS online is probably alot more fun than MMORPG's soley because no one in the right mind would want to grind for hours and hours in which if u aint totally dedicated to lvling, will just either pay someone to do it or get a bot ( basically why Lineage 2 is nothing but botters and powerleveling) and i disagree that WoW is doing anything new and the grinding sucks as bad as any other MMORPG.
kill, kill , kill some more, go to sleep, wake up, rinse, lather repeat
Very easy.
Have active GMs constantly monitoring the world, giving out EXP awards for actually ROLEPLAYING in a MMORPG
Easy rinic? Ya right....
There are enough allegations of GM favoritism and power abuse when they AREN'T allowed to hand stuff out. You want to staff your game with people that can give away XP? .............. there's no other way to spell that but M I S T A K E
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PM me when an MMO as good as UO was comes out.
The idea isn't taking away grinding, but making the grinding fun and more challenging. Life is one big grind, but if you enjoy your job it doesn't seem like it. The way to make an MMO to seem less of a grind is to make the game play of MMO's more like the game play of a good single player game. Maybe thats not being done in 3D mmo's because of bandwith and processing power of todays computers but Devs can start out making games like this in top down games like Diablo style game. You start out in that way and then when technology catches up you go to 3D. Think of an MMO that has some aspects of GTA, and some of Hitman and Thief, a little bit of Half-Life 2 thrown in. This would make games more dynamic and feel less like a grindfest.
So someone cheats and they get fired. Makes sense to me?