Originally posted by Kriminal99 Its amazing how people who actually believe that exploiting has any effect on the player believe that many share their view. If your talking about duping items or money, if everyone does it its not unfair to anyone. Its not the players fault for doing it, theyre goal is to get ahead in the virtual world, and they pay the company to make an arena to allow us to do this. If a game is a haven for exploiters its because that games designers are incompetent. They have a bad product. It certainly is not their place to bitch and whine at customers for their own stupidity. If everyone in a game is using a "so-called" exploit then its not an unfair advantage for anyone person to use it and its not an exploit. If the game is too easily beaten because it was not designed well then players can simply go play a better game (when there is competition). The only party that truly has an interest in stopping so called "exploits" is the company because they want the game to last as long as possible and get your money. What has happened is people have been brainwashed into thinking that the companies interest is their own, when it is not.
I just cant agree with this on any level I'm afraid, notwithstanding my previous point regarding 'grey area' activities its usually pretty obvious if something is intended or not, and if its obvious its not then you shouldnt do it regardless of it the system lets you or not
Arguing that 'eveyone one can do it' gains no ground since you dont know if everyone knows about it, and those players with morals/scruples wouldnt be doing it even if they knew - sorry but trying to justify the use of an exploit just comes over as lame however you try and paint it (I took that mans wallet because he left it on the table, I thought he didnt want it! - yes he was stupid to leave it there but that didnt give you the right to take it!)
You'd be showing more 'skill' playing the game properly rather than taking the easy way out
Originally posted by 5150 I just cant agree with this on any level I'm afraid, notwithstanding my previous point regarding 'grey area' activities its usually pretty obvious if something is intended or not, and if its obvious its not then you shouldnt do it regardless of it the system lets you or not Arguing that 'eveyone one can do it' gains no ground since you dont know if everyone knows about it, and those players with morals/scruples wouldnt be doing it even if they knew - sorry but trying to justify the use of an exploit just comes over as lame however you try and paint it (I took that mans wallet because he left it on the table, I thought he didnt want it! - yes he was stupid to leave it there but that didnt give you the right to take it!) You'd be showing more 'skill' playing the game properly rather than taking the easy way out
Ok part of your argument here reduces to "Im right because I'm right"- If you can't prove that its wrong to exploit then saying that people wouldn't exploit because its wrong even if they knew has no meaning... Then to say that "well what if people don't know" Well they learn through other people using it just like any other tactic. Unless you want to ban every strategy or tactic that everyone in the game doesn't already know then this argument makes no sense as well. Then you use a metaphor of something completely unrelated to try and make your argument "sound" valid.
If this is truly the reasoning behind the argument against exploits then I think you demonstrate its incorrectness as well as I do.
And its not true that most exploits are obvious. Duping items is about as good as it gets in terms of obviousness and this still doesn't justify claiming it wrong. There is no way to stop EVERYONE from duping items without fixing the bug. Therefore threatening to ban players for it only gives people willing and able to break the rules without being caught an advantage over people that do not.
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I'd say its too cynical and pessimistic and that believing everyone follows it, subconsciously or not is a bit deluded, it may be your beliefs and they are valid but you can't presume what philosophies others follow.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with slavery, in the past if was thought to be ok and so was legal, over time it was decided it wasn't so its not. As peoples opinions changed so did the law.
Its not a few people posting on the forums, its a few hundred and when the active population of the English speaking community in the game is most likely less than a thousand, i'd say thats a large proportion, you may get the impression people don't mind it but then you may have associated with those doing it.
They tell us, its them making the rules about exploits.
Because its not meant to be in the game, they know better than you what is (it's their game!) and it is up to them.
It was never said this was an exploit and nobody was banned for this, KK simply added the penalties. At the start of retail they put loms in in that form to allow people who didn't understand the skill system to fix mistakes, it was the players who said people were abusing it in the way you mentioned, kk simply did something about it. First off do you even know what this exploit was? Rhinos could be emote repaired even when at full health, and were giving disproportionate exp, thus people would stock up on remote repair nanites and tape their mouse down and go afk, fully capping a spy in about 24 hours. This really defeats the purpose of the game and the player base complained about how unfair it was, yes they could have done it but as it is obviously cheating they would prefer it was removed so the game can be played as it was intended. KK to fix it until they can patch in another method disabled remote repair tools (this i disagree with, imo they should have just removed exp gain from repair). Nobody was banned for it, they found another method quickly and implemented it.
You are only supposed to level and gain items in a specific way, hence the rules to prevent people cheating to gain these things by other means. In chess you can just pick up a pawn move it over the whole board and take the king, it would be stupid if you could and remove the purpose of the game. Rather you have to move at set intervals and play through the game, get the oppositions king into check mate and then you have won. In a mmo there is also a set way you must play the game to attain the objectives, there may be no fixed "win" at the end, but thats just the nature of these games.
its not a question of you know if something is fair, its a question of did you have any doubt in your mind that the devs would view it otherwise, if no player has ever said "thats exploiting" or you have not been informed by any other means you are innocent and you wont get in trouble, just informed and warned. However if you have heard on some form that it might be exploiting its up to you to confirm this and stop doing it.
This isn't a power as such, he can still easily refuse your application and let you quit, the power is in his hands, yes you can say you have the power to quit and not do what he says but as is said before thats just a right you have, you have no way of forcing him to comply to your wishes, you aren't as important to him as your job is to you, if you are then you are most likely in a more freelance position. Also in the everyday work enviroment you can't tell him to do task a but he can tell you what to do, due to the employee worker relationship, this is his power.
Very few lecturers teach just one class, in a school system the school assigns you to set classes, in a University circumstance, the compulsory curriculum is split between the lecturers and the advanced classes , if no one subscribes, does not reflect directly on the lecturer until no one has taken it for a while, they get to go back to their research and carry on teaching their classes which are compulsory.
Yes and? If the company has any contracts underway however, those party to them must fulfil their end of the contract, even if the company goes bankrupt the trustee in bankruptcy will fulfil any contracts that can still be fulfilled.
Some authority is imposed or inferred by law and there is no way you can get out of it, the authority of the police for example, or the government.
The company wants to maintain the majority of its customers not each one individually, especially when they break the rules set out in the contract.
It is just your view they are poor and selfish based on your opinions on exploiting, I don't think its selfish for them to run their product the way they see fit and best for their customers, exploiters are a minority of customers and so they are thinking about the majority base, yes they decide what an exploit is but most customers can guess what is and isn't too based on the objectives within the game.
Will it NC's population be hurt by future games? Yes most definitely (not that it can get much worse), but not for the reasons you say, I very much doubt any of these games will turn a blind eye to cheating and if they do they will fail.
Look at complaints on all forums, which are a representation of the games community, also note how many people say they quit NC because of the level of exploiting in the past.
But it defeats the purpose of the game then it makes the game meaning irrelevant, if i want to watch numbers fly up i'll use a calculator, in a mmo your meant to earn cash and items by specific in-game methods only.
They must stop their mistakes being taken advantage of and spoiling the game while they work out a fix.
But what if its only too easy because of flaws in the game the designer did not intend. The designers fix the flaws so the game keeps with their intention, and people don't have to go to other games. It also makes the game more interesting for those playing, if your annoyed you can't get ahead using illegitimate means, why not work on getting ahead legitimately? Game not fun for you when you can't cheat?
And what if the fix was going to take a few days to develop, why would people subscribe for a service they can't use?
Saying that someone follows a philosophy subconsiously means that their emotions lead them to follow it. Yes I do know this to be true. If you give money to someone intending to help them and you find out they are spending the money on drugs and are using you then you stop giving them money. (unless you try to place yourself in denial that this is happening)
Claiming that this philosophy is not common sense philosophy that all people follow in their actions is to deny this fact and claim people do not fear being used, or care if theyre efforts really benefit other people, or care weather or not they recieve recognition for their efforts. The design of the unconsious mind is what prevents us from doing things that obviously do not work. Believing people that we actually know never lie or decieve only people on tv do, and that right and wrong is always black and white never grey, does not work in the real world and thus people do not act according to these philosophies even if they believe them because doing so would seriously frustrate them.
Anyways your trying to put the chicken before the egg here with the slavery issue. The law is mostly what changed peoples minds, the majority of southererners still wanted their slaves when they were freed. That is just simple fact, if what you were saying was true then there wouldn't have been any slaves to be freed because the southerners would have all just freed them voluntarily... There are plenty of laws that have existed where people did not agree with them but they were enacted anyways because they were right.
About the forum - A) A few hundred people on the forums never all agreed that expoiting was wrong. There was plenty of people that thought as I did on the neocron forums The people on the forums are most likely to be people that would mistakenly think exploiting is wrong, the people who played the game for the game itself are less likely to be in tune with a misguided idea spread socially and have more natural ideas so forum activity would be a terrible representation of the avg player for the purpose of determining current beliefs.
If it were true that exploits were limited ONLY to what the developers told us they decided were exploits then banning people for them wouldn't be AS bad, but as long as anything not specifically stated as an exploit might be considered as one then no player can enjoy the game without worrying about what he is doing.
Actually in KK often times the people who determined exploits claimed things were exploits that were intended by the devlopers. So often times they really didn't have any clue what they were doing. But anyways like I said its not as bad if they specifically denote every exploit, but every one better damn well be described exactly in the contract or rules of conduct.
Its not true that they did not refer to such LOM tactics as exploits. http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=228 There were other examples but I couldn't be bothered to find them, but they called use of LOMS exploits everywhere at the time and the gms threatened people before they changed it. Exploits are not limited to obvious or predeclared actions.
The developers controlled how much experience the rhinoes gave, and even if the rhinos did not allow you to continue repairing when full then players could have done the same thing by having their friend tape down the mouse button with a low level psi spell attacking the rhino. If they truly did as you say and did not ban anyone then they did nothing wrong.
Again with the unconnected metaphors. If your going to use a metaphor you have to complete the connection. In chess, the rules are equivalent to the design of an mmorpg. Exploits are equivalent to someone trying to make up rules in the middle of the game. If there is a problem with the rules of chess midgame that unbalance the game you still do not change the rules midgame, you document the problem and any future game you would play with the new rules. In MMORPG's thats equivalent to either making sure players know after a certain point its considered an exploit, or just removing it from the game. But if you can just remove it from the game why threaten paying customers?
Ok players have declared everything under the sun to be an exploit before. Unless you are some kind of sheep gamer that vows never to do anything but the simplest, stupidest and most obvious way, then everything you do is likely to have been called cheating by an immature player. Even if it were not rediculous to claim that it is the paying customers responsibillity to determine weather the devlopers consider something an exploit or not, it would take an infinite amount of time to confirm every new tactic as not an exploit. Thats pretty much all you would be doing.
I have no way of forcing my boss to comply with my wishes and he has no way of forcing me to comply with his. Both parties only comply to the degree that they want to maintain the deal. Any power is only had by the fact that one party wants to maintain the deal more than the other and that is determined by competition. If I can go work somewhere else and be treated more respectfully or be paid more then I will do so and if he wants to maintain the relationship he would have to adjust his behavior. If the terms of the deal regard being available to help the boss then I would have already agreed to do that in exchange for taking the job. But anything you didn't agree to that the boss tried to do would cause you to reevaluate the deal.
There are plenty of jobs where you can tell your boss what to do because for some reason the boss needs you more than you need him at the moment. Theres high profile jobs like acting etc, but even just say being a resturaunt employee. If anyone got pissed off at the boss and left the boss would be totally screwed, and could easily be fired himself for mishandling employees. Also it might be the terms of the job that you tell him what to do. If you are some kind of advisor, or something like a sail or tour guide.
The label "boss" is pretty much limited to a very specific kind of deal in a very specific kind of enviornment where he represents the company you have a deal with and it is given that you have more desire to maintain the relationship than the company does. That does not make him an "authority figure" however, you only do what he tells you because you choose to in order to best benefit yourself.
Granted in a University system teaching classes is not the sole responsibility of the teachers, however not all teachers are useful for research and weather they fire a teacher because everyone hates him even if he is a good researcher depends solely on how much they value teaching ability in comparison to research ability.
My point in mentioning a company going bankrupt is to point out the absurdity of referring to KK as an "authority figure" simply because the market is temporarily uncompetitive, because besides the fact that there is no such thing as an authority figure the second the market becomes competitive it will be KK that has the stronger desire to maintain the contract.
No authority cannot be imposed, you can beat someone, toss them in a jail, kill them etc but that is not the same as "exacting obedience" as your definition put it. Furthermore it is said that the government has the ability to arrest you etc because by being a member of that country you agree to it, if you don't like it you can simply move to another country or island. In exchange for allowing police to arrest you when they deem it necessary you gain protection yourself from being randomly attacked and get everything else that the government provides. It is a deal in which both parties recieve something, and you do not have to participate in it, therefore it is no different.
The point of mentioning that a company most wants to maintain the deal with its customers in a competitive market is to show that once the mmorpg market becomes more competitive, better and better contracts will be offered to the customers. Since like I said it costs LESS money to simply fix "exploits" rather than chase around paying customers and ban them for "exploits", AND it makes the customers happier then a company will no longer be able to survive with a policy that allows them to ban players for exploits.
Stopping exploits DOES NOT benefit the customers. You still have yet to deal with the cut and dry argument against this... If everyone can use an exploit its not unfair for any one person to use it, if you claim otherwise then you must also claim the same thing about ALL strategies and tactics which is rediculous. THere is nothing from the players point of view that differentiates exploits from any other tactic. You said yourself it depends only on the developers intentions, and therefore only benefits the developer. If it somehow truly benefitted the players then there would HAVE to be some way to differentiate an exploit from any other tactic WITHOUT reffering to the developers intentions.
If a fix really took a few days to handle then I would simply leave it in the game until the fix was finished. However there is usually a temporary hotfix that can be used instantly such as KK uses anyways (because they cant actually stop exploiters by banning random ones) to any exploit
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Originally posted by Kriminal99 Yes I do know this to be true.
You can only speak for yourself when it comes to opinions, not for others. I and many I know don't follow your philosophies, I am by no means a minority with obscure ideals.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If you give money to someone intending to help them and you find out they are spending the money on drugs and are using you then you stop giving them money. (unless you try to place yourself in denial that this is happening)
Your generalising and exaggerating, you can't group every homeless person into another group i.e. drug users.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Anyways your trying to put the chicken before the egg here with the slavery issue. The law is mostly what changed peoples minds, the majority of southererners still wanted their slaves when they were freed. That is just simple fact, if what you were saying was true then there wouldn't have been any slaves to be freed because the southerners would have all just freed them voluntarily... There are plenty of laws that have existed where people did not agree with them but they were enacted anyways because they were right.
The south didn't make up the whole countries population, war broke out with slavery being one of the reasons and those that won the war and created a majority rule and abolished slavery. I really think this is getting off topic.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 About the forum - A) A few hundred people on the forums never all agreed that expoiting was wrong. There was plenty of people that thought as I did on the neocron forums The people on the forums are most likely to be people that would mistakenly think exploiting is wrong, the people who played the game for the game itself are less likely to be in tune with a misguided idea spread socially and have more natural ideas so forum activity would be a terrible representation of the avg player for the purpose of determining current beliefs.
A customer forum is a representation of a player base. They actively play the game and so its their opinions that matter, they are the paying customers. How can their opinion be "mistakenly wrong"? Because they don't agree with you?
Originally posted by Kriminal99 but as long as anything not specifically stated as an exploit might be considered as one then no player can enjoy the game without worrying about what he is doing.
Very few players have to worry if their exploiting as the majority of players play legitimately and don't break the rules.
[quote]Originally posted by Kriminal99 [b] [url=http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=228] There were other examples but I couldn't be bothered to find them, but they called use of LOMS exploits everywhere at the time and the gms threatened people before they changed it. Exploits are not limited to obvious or predeclared actions. [/b][/quote]
It is being used in another context in the patch notes, an adjective not a noun. They never banned anyone for it and it wasn't considered "cheating" at the time, it was considered not fair and so was changed.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Again with the unconnected metaphors. If your going to use a metaphor you have to complete the connection. In chess, the rules are equivalent to the design of an mmorpg. Exploits are equivalent to someone trying to make up rules in the middle of the game. If there is a problem with the rules of chess midgame that unbalance the game you still do not change the rules midgame, you document the problem and any future game you would play with the new rules. In MMORPG's thats equivalent to either making sure players know after a certain point its considered an exploit, or just removing it from the game. But if you can just remove it from the game why threaten paying customers?
It takes time to remove something from the game. I see the exploiter as changing the rules in the middle of the game, they are using means that aren't meant to be in the game to attempt to win, thus braking the rules.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Ok players have declared everything under the sun to be an exploit before.
Yes but if someone tells you something is an exploit you should make sure it isn't.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 My point in mentioning a company going bankrupt is to point out the absurdity of referring to KK as an "authority figure" simply because the market is temporarily uncompetitive
It has nothing to do with competition, while you play their game under their rules of conduct, they can do what they feel necessary to make you abide by the rules, or permanently ban you.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 The point of mentioning that a company most wants to maintain the deal with its customers in a competitive market is to show that once the mmorpg market becomes more competitive, better and better contracts will be offered to the customers. Since like I said it costs LESS money to simply fix "exploits" rather than chase around paying customers and ban them for "exploits", AND it makes the customers happier then a company will no longer be able to survive with a policy that allows them to ban players for exploits.
All mmo's ban for exploiting and all mmo's will continue to. If you want to make a game where all can cheat and in game items and money mean nothing in the game, go ahead, it wont last very long though. MMO's need structure.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Stopping exploits DOES NOT benefit the customers.
Funny how customers of the game disagree with you, it might not benefit cheaters but thats another story...
Originally posted by Kriminal99 You still have yet to deal with the cut and dry argument against this... If everyone can use an exploit its not unfair for any one person to use it, if you claim otherwise then you must also claim the same thing about ALL strategies and tactics which is rediculous. THere is nothing from the players point of view that differentiates exploits from any other tactic. You said yourself it depends only on the developers intentions, and therefore only benefits the developer. If it somehow truly benefitted the players then there would HAVE to be some way to differentiate an exploit from any other tactic WITHOUT reffering to the developers intentions.
It ruins the purpose of the game, and there have been plenty of arguments put forward and not just by me, you just don't like them as you like to cheat.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 If a fix really took a few days to handle then I would simply leave it in the game until the fix was finished.
If you leave it in-game for a few days the game can become unbalanced.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 because they cant actually stop exploiters by banning random ones
And the law can't stop crimes by arresting the criminals that they find, if someone is guilty they have to be punished. In a game cheaters shouldn't get away with it, there has to be repercussions to their actions and kk enforce them.
You can only speak for yourself when it comes to opinions, not for others. I and many I know don't follow your philosophies, I am by no means a minority with obscure ideals.
Your generalising and exaggerating, you can't group every homeless person into another group i.e. drug users.
The south didn't make up the whole countries population, war broke out with slavery being one of the reasons and those that won the war and created a majority rule and abolished slavery. I really think this is getting off topic.
A customer forum is a representation of a player base. They actively play the game and so its their opinions that matter, they are the paying customers. How can their opinion be "mistakenly wrong"? Because they don't agree with you?
Very few players have to worry if their exploiting as the majority of players play legitimately and don't break the rules. It is being used in another context in the patch notes, an adjective not a noun. They never banned anyone for it and it wasn't considered "cheating" at the time, it was considered not fair and so was changed.
It takes time to remove something from the game. I see the exploiter as changing the rules in the middle of the game, they are using means that aren't meant to be in the game to attempt to win, thus braking the rules.
Yes but if someone tells you something is an exploit you should make sure it isn't.
It has nothing to do with competition, while you play their game under their rules of conduct, they can do what they feel necessary to make you abide by the rules, or permanently ban you.
All mmo's ban for exploiting and all mmo's will continue to. If you want to make a game where all can cheat and in game items and money mean nothing in the game, go ahead, it wont last very long though. MMO's need structure.
Funny how customers of the game disagree with you, it might not benefit cheaters but thats another story...
It ruins the purpose of the game, and there have been plenty of arguments put forward and not just by me, you just don't like them as you like to cheat.
If you leave it in-game for a few days the game can become unbalanced.
And the law can't stop crimes by arresting the criminals that they find, if someone is guilty they have to be punished. In a game cheaters shouldn't get away with it, there has to be repercussions to their actions and kk enforce them.
I didn't say that you followed the philosophy consiously, I said you follow it unconsiously meaning your emotions are based off it. But unless you give money to any beggar off the street, and have never talked about anyone badly behind their back, etc then you have followed your emotions which are based on this philosophy and therefore have followed it consiously in a sense as well.
I wasn't generalizing anything, I didn't say anything about homeless people in that example. I said IF it actually happened that someone you gave money to was using it for drugs and you then stopped giving money to people without knowing anything about them then you are a subscriber to my philosophy. Try explaining this phenonomon without my philosophy, or tell me that you give money to people without knowing anything about them.
The slavery is off topic but it was not majority rule in the south. The simple fact is the rule went against people wanted. And there are plenty of examples where lawmakers declare something wrong that people didn't previously want and it sticks because they are convinced or do not think it is wrong enough to make a big deal about.
Peoples opinion can be mistakenly wrong when it is based on very flawed reasoning. There is one and only one right answer to every question, and one and only one best answer to every question where all information is not provided. but anyways the point of that statement was that you are overestimating the number of people who agree with you, both on the forums and in the game. Anti-exploiters are by no means the majority.
Ok... QUOTE: "Very few players have to worry if their exploiting as the majority of players play legitimately and don't break the rules." What the hell does this mean? If they "play legitmately" but they exploit they wont get in trouble? This is like politician level issue dodging right here. The point was they can't even TELL what the rules are and therefore must worry about everything they do and your response is they can tell what the rules are because they don't break the rules?
No they did not use it JUST in a different context in the patch notes, there were other posts where it was used as a noun if I thought it would help I would track them down to but since you simply refuse to acknowledge any proof of anything you don't agree with it would be pointless. Thats some of the only evidence left of the fact that they started calling it exploit, and its provides SOME proof of what I am saying because why would they even play with the word "exploit" for something that was just an unexpected use when exploit entails bannabillity. They posted about it in the forums several times before the patch notes and gms were talking about it in the forums and in game as an exploit, and also threatened people.
Rules of a board game are very specific and clear because their purpose is to define what can and cannot be done, like the design of an mmorpg. There is no parallell of mmorpg rules in a board game because if you can physically control what a player can and can't do then what the heck would you need rules for? The concept of "exploiter" is completely impossible in a board game because THE ONLY things that are not allowed in a board game is what the rules SPECIFICALLY STATE. Anything else is not only fair game, but is in fact the PURPOSE OF THE GAME. Try and find one board game that has a rule even remotely resembling a MMORPG rule against exploiting. If someone broke the rules in a board game then they would be a cheater not an exploiter. An exploiter in a board game would just be called a clever person who came up with a new strategy, and an anti-exploiter is just someone that whines about not seeing it coming.
Again, Noone is going to spend their entire gaming time allotment checking and rechecking every possible action with the developers because a sore loser called it exploiting.
Not having a "ban exploiter" policy does nothing to promote exploiting. KK hasn't stopped anyone from exploiting with their bs. Why do you think they still need to remove tools, lower xp, keep anyone from discussing exploits on the forums? Wake up and smell the coffee. Banning doesn't even work, it has no effect on reducing exploiting, all it does is piss off the players.
Its not a majority that dislikes exploiting because a person has to be brainwashed before they even know what an exploit is. And even if there was a majority belief in that, as long as those opinions were based on flawed reasoning then it still would not be in the people's interest. They just wouldn't realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.
I do not cheat, and players have all kinds of misconstrued ideas about the purpose of the game but that doesn't determine weather they like the game or not. They like the game or not depending on weather or not its fun. If one game ceases to be fun they can just go play a different one, and therefore exploiting is of no importance to them.
If a game has a bug that can be exploited and there truly is no way to stop it by a minor tweak that you don't even need to patch for, AND its so bad that its going to unbalance the game then its going to unbalance the game weather you ban exploiters or not. Furthermore you can simply rebalance the game afterwords by say raising npc prices for a wekk or something. But I can't possibly imagine a bug that couldn't be temp fixed by changing something else anyways.
Before you can draw a likeness between exploiting and a REAL crime you have to prove that there is something wrong with it without begging the question. Anyways there are alot of "crimes" as well that are not truly crimes in the traditional sense - The person committing them is not commiting an aggressive act with the intention to hurt someone else. They are declared crimes because it is believed that stopping it will raise the general happiness of the community. For example speeding.
Someone might claim after it is well known that if you speed you are hurting people. But before this can be done, it actually has to be PROVEN that speeding is dangerous. This is like exploiting, except they just skipped to the part where they try to make people feel bad about it without ever having proven that it is harmful to the community.
All of your arguments are heavily based on the presumption that there is something wrong with exploiting, yet you don't have a legitimate argument of how it is wrong to begin with...
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First of all, the majority of players are brainwashed against exploiting? Ah, i see is that because they disagree with you?
Anyway, exploiting is wrong because it unbalances the game, and breaks the rules. By knowing what the rules are and the purpose of the game, players can tell what and what isn't exploiting and the majority do, of those that exploit most know their doing it too, they are just deluded that they'll get away with it.
If you read back through my posts you will see plenty of reasons why I believe exploiting is wrong, they are there you just fail to except them, your argument is based on if everyone cheats it ok, well imo its not ok, cheating ruins games and destroys their purpose, some people prefer to use skill in games to win. As for my argument is based on presumptions, I fail to see any facts in yours either. Banning does prevent exploiting, there are a lot less problems with exploiting now in nc than there were a year ago, those that happen now are minor and kk deal with them swiftly.
Originally posted by cyphor First of all, the majority of players are brainwashed against exploiting? Ah, i see is that because they disagree with you? Anyway, exploiting is wrong because it unbalances the game, and breaks the rules. By knowing what the rules are and the purpose of the game, players can tell what and what isn't exploiting and the majority do, of those that exploit most know their doing it too, they are just deluded that they'll get away with it. If you read back through my posts you will see plenty of reasons why I believe exploiting is wrong, they are there you just fail to except them, your argument is based on if everyone cheats it ok, well imo its not ok, cheating ruins games and destroys their purpose, some people prefer to use skill in games to win. As for my argument is based on presumptions, I fail to see any facts in yours either. Banning does prevent exploiting, there are a lot less problems with exploiting now in nc than there were a year ago, those that happen now are minor and kk deal with them swiftly.
Not because they disagree with me but because A) they are wrong, and because awareness of exploiting as something the player has a moral obligation not to do does not even arise until a mmorpg dev tries to force the idea on himher.
No you have layed out right here pretty much the reasons why you think exploiting is wrong that you have used in the other posts. Most of your posts have not had arguments to this end.
Does it unbalance the game? No not if everyone uses it. Does it break the rules? Yes, if the rules say something against it, but rules for their own sake do not have any value. If a law says I have to kill someone is it wrong not to kill someone just because its a law? oO What is your argument for claiming that exploits are wrong that actually makes sense?
"some people prefer to use skill rather than cheat" Once again you are begging the question. To call one tactic cheating and another skill you have to explain why one is cheating and hence why it is wrong. The only difference is weather the developers wanted you to do it or not and therefore it is not "right or wrong" A whole game could be made in which the point was to find things that other games called exploits and use them to your advantage. - And before you say "its their game so its wrong" well thats assuming that the developer would call it an exploit and were trying to figure weather they should or not in order to be competitive and in the right.
There are a lot less PEOPLE in neocron now then there was a while ago lol... And I said it doesn't stop exploiting, as in altogether prevent.
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Exploiting topic has been moved to here where those poor "brainwashed" souls can now argue the issue. I have gave reasoning why I am against it, I'll let others take over now as you are repeating yourself as much as I am and you fail to except anyone elses arguments but your own.
LOL what argument? There never was any argument for why exploiting was wrong that wasn't begging the question.... Here is what I have seen and why anyone can see the arguments were wrong:
"If noone knows the exploit not everyone can use it so its an unfair advantage" - Unless people can never discover it its not unfair, to follow this reasoning you would have to ban every tactic that wasn't given to every player before use....
"Exploiting is wrong, breaking the rules, metaphors to commiting crimes" - circular argument, you have to prove its wrong before you can say its wrong or call it a crime, and we are debating weather or not it SHOULD be a rule.
"It makes the game not as fun for as long" - So does poor game balance or lack of endgame, does that mean players should be banned for using playing unbalanced characters, playing to the end of the game, or not compensating for every design mistake the developers may make?
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Originally posted by Kriminal99 LOL what argument? There never was any argument for why exploiting was wrong that wasn't begging the question.... Here is what I have seen and why anyone can see the arguments were wrong: "If noone knows the exploit not everyone can use it so its an unfair advantage" - Unless people can never discover it its not unfair, to follow this reasoning you would have to ban every tactic that wasn't given to every player before use.... "Exploiting is wrong, breaking the rules, metaphors to commiting crimes" - circular argument, you have to prove its wrong before you can say its wrong or call it a crime, and we are debating weather or not it SHOULD be a rule. "It makes the game not as fun for as long" - So does poor game balance or lack of endgame, does that mean players should be banned for using playing unbalanced characters, playing to the end of the game, or not compensating for every design mistake the developers may make?
The issue I have with the 'prove its wrong first' argument is this
The real world doesnt work on those principles, laws are not retrospectively drawn up after a new crime has been 'discovered' - certain acts and actions are just _known_ to be 'wrong' and are thus judged illegal, we have laws that are broad in scope (and courts to argue the specifics of each case) because it is not practical (or even possible?) to draw up specific laws for every specific crime
In the same vein the EULA you agree to when you play these games contains broad 'laws' (you will not cheat etc) designed to cover all 'illegal' behaviour - again its impractical (impossible?) to expect devs to rule on every single activity in game (especially if none of the players are reporting it) but in most cases (certainly the most damaging 'exploits' its bloody obvious to the player that either they shouldnt be doing what they are doing or that the result of their actions wasnt intended - unfortunately the mental age of alot of players (and I'll go so far as to say specifically the ones I have met playing Neocron) is such that these 'advantages' are used without pause (and either without stopping to consider if it was intended or proceeding to use it with the knowledge that is is not intended) because of the hyper-competitive nature of some people (despte the fact that the 'achievement' is a hollow one)
Going by your 'standards' whenever I start a new game I should/must spend my initial game time trying to find as many 'advantages' as I can just to keep pace with the 'clever' players
Sorry but that a load of tosh - if tose 'features' arent listed in the manual then its pretty obvious they are unintended, at which point thier use should be avoided and/or reported to the devs (if for no other reason than to check if is ok to use it - then you'll be in the clear if you do)
Originally posted by 5150 The issue I have with the 'prove its wrong first' argument is this The real world doesnt work on those principles, laws are not retrospectively drawn up after a new crime has been 'discovered' - certain acts and actions are just _known_ to be 'wrong' and are thus judged illegal, we have laws that are broad in scope (and courts to argue the specifics of each case) because it is not practical (or even possible?) to draw up specific laws for every specific crime In the same vein the EULA you agree to when you play these games contains broad 'laws' (you will not cheat etc) designed to cover all 'illegal' behaviour - again its impractical (impossible?) to expect devs to rule on every single activity in game (especially if none of the players are reporting it) but in most cases (certainly the most damaging 'exploits' its bloody obvious to the player that either they shouldnt be doing what they are doing or that the result of their actions wasnt intended - unfortunately the mental age of alot of players (and I'll go so far as to say specifically the ones I have met playing Neocron) is such that these 'advantages' are used without pause (and either without stopping to consider if it was intended or proceeding to use it with the knowledge that is is not intended) because of the hyper-competitive nature of some people (despte the fact that the 'achievement' is a hollow one)
Going by your 'standards' whenever I start a new game I should/must spend my initial game time trying to find as many 'advantages' as I can just to keep pace with the 'clever' players Sorry but that a load of tosh - if tose 'features' arent listed in the manual then its pretty obvious they are unintended, at which point thier use should be avoided and/or reported to the devs (if for no other reason than to check if is ok to use it - then you'll be in the clear if you do)
Thats bull.. If something is really wrong then there is a reason why it is wrong and someone damn well better know what that reason is before you try and get people in trouble for it. Yeah people sometimes try and hurt someone else because they "feel" what that person is doing is wrong but have no clue why... like KKK members for instance. Its called ignorance and stupidity. And exploits are obviously NOT wrong. In any case it is certainly absolutely meaningless for people to run around calling it cheating without even knowing why its not fair.
Any aggressive act is wrong because you are attempting to hurt someone else to relieve yourself of your own insecurity. But in doing so you cause the other person insecurity and therefore break the golden rule and make yourself a hypocrite. (Btw people that argue against exploits resort to aggresive acts all the time even while calling exploits wrong)
But exploiting is not an aggresive act. You don't do it with the intent of hurting someone else. Its like the example I used with cyphor: Speeding. Before you can make speeding against the law and call people immoral for speeding you have to determine that doing it actually has a negative effect on the community. In the case of speeding it does because speeding means going faster then posted speed limits which are supposed to be designed with the slowest speed someone might be traveling after entering the road in mind (relative speeds are what matters) But the truth is probably half the cops that pop off at the mouth about speeding don't even know why its wrong. If speeding didn't have an overall effect on safety they would probably still be mouthing off about it to everyone.
Determining the overall effect on happiness in a mmorpg or anywhere else of allowing any one strategy or exploit is by no means easy and if you believe otherwise you are dilluding yourself. Why do you think so many developers fail in the task of creating a game that many people enjoy? Calling an exploit wrong or cheating in any way shape or form is totally invalid unless you have done a perfect analysis of the results both with and without. Say you wanted to know if rocket jumping in an online fps made it better or worse. Even I would hesitate at knowing where to start at such a task... You would have to get totally unbiased players and either hack open their brains and look for physical signs that they had fun, or maybe just take a poll but then you would have to realize that some people would say they didn't like it just because they couldn't do it yet etc.
Removing all your propaganda rules you have just that it is in the contract, but the argument is to determine if it SHOULD be in the contract.
The manual does not tell you how to climb your way up a moutain by finding soft spots where most of the moutain is too steep and then snipe people that would take 30 minutes to find how to get where you are. That doesn't make this an exploit, although some developers might try to claim it is which is obviously rediculous. This kind of thing is the most fun part of the game for someone like me and is exactly why I hate antiexploiting policies. As far as I'm concerned they ought to rename them anti-intelligence policies.
And what is different about discovering exploits than discovering strategies that other people use in a game? Nothing. If other people fight in third person so they can see behind them better you can learn that from them. If other people hide part of their bodies behind walls so they can shoot you and you can't shoot them you can learn that from them. If other people find ways to get to hard to reach places, or anything else you can learn it and do it too. Same with exploits.
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Comments
I just cant agree with this on any level I'm afraid, notwithstanding my previous point regarding 'grey area' activities its usually pretty obvious if something is intended or not, and if its obvious its not then you shouldnt do it regardless of it the system lets you or not
Arguing that 'eveyone one can do it' gains no ground since you dont know if everyone knows about it, and those players with morals/scruples wouldnt be doing it even if they knew - sorry but trying to justify the use of an exploit just comes over as lame however you try and paint it (I took that mans wallet because he left it on the table, I thought he didnt want it! - yes he was stupid to leave it there but that didnt give you the right to take it!)
You'd be showing more 'skill' playing the game properly rather than taking the easy way out
Ok part of your argument here reduces to "Im right because I'm right"- If you can't prove that its wrong to exploit then saying that people wouldn't exploit because its wrong even if they knew has no meaning... Then to say that "well what if people don't know" Well they learn through other people using it just like any other tactic. Unless you want to ban every strategy or tactic that everyone in the game doesn't already know then this argument makes no sense as well. Then you use a metaphor of something completely unrelated to try and make your argument "sound" valid.
If this is truly the reasoning behind the argument against exploits then I think you demonstrate its incorrectness as well as I do.
And its not true that most exploits are obvious. Duping items is about as good as it gets in terms of obviousness and this still doesn't justify claiming it wrong. There is no way to stop EVERYONE from duping items without fixing the bug. Therefore threatening to ban players for it only gives people willing and able to break the rules without being caught an advantage over people that do not.
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Saying that someone follows a philosophy subconsiously means that their emotions lead them to follow it. Yes I do know this to be true. If you give money to someone intending to help them and you find out they are spending the money on drugs and are using you then you stop giving them money. (unless you try to place yourself in denial that this is happening)
Claiming that this philosophy is not common sense philosophy that all people follow in their actions is to deny this fact and claim people do not fear being used, or care if theyre efforts really benefit other people, or care weather or not they recieve recognition for their efforts. The design of the unconsious mind is what prevents us from doing things that obviously do not work. Believing people that we actually know never lie or decieve only people on tv do, and that right and wrong is always black and white never grey, does not work in the real world and thus people do not act according to these philosophies even if they believe them because doing so would seriously frustrate them.
Anyways your trying to put the chicken before the egg here with the slavery issue. The law is mostly what changed peoples minds, the majority of southererners still wanted their slaves when they were freed. That is just simple fact, if what you were saying was true then there wouldn't have been any slaves to be freed because the southerners would have all just freed them voluntarily... There are plenty of laws that have existed where people did not agree with them but they were enacted anyways because they were right.
About the forum - A) A few hundred people on the forums never all agreed that expoiting was wrong. There was plenty of people that thought as I did on the neocron forums
The people on the forums are most likely to be people that would mistakenly think exploiting is wrong, the people who played the game for the game itself are less likely to be in tune with a misguided idea spread socially and have more natural ideas so forum activity would be a terrible representation of the avg player for the purpose of determining current beliefs.
If it were true that exploits were limited ONLY to what the developers told us they decided were exploits then banning people for them wouldn't be AS bad, but as long as anything not specifically stated as an exploit might be considered as one then no player can enjoy the game without worrying about what he is doing.
Actually in KK often times the people who determined exploits claimed things were exploits that were intended by the devlopers. So often times they really didn't have any clue what they were doing. But anyways like I said its not as bad if they specifically denote every exploit, but every one better damn well be described exactly in the contract or rules of conduct.
Its not true that they did not refer to such LOM tactics as exploits. http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=228 There were other examples but I couldn't be bothered to find them, but they called use of LOMS exploits everywhere at the time and the gms threatened people before they changed it. Exploits are not limited to obvious or predeclared actions.
The developers controlled how much experience the rhinoes gave, and even if the rhinos did not allow you to continue repairing when full then players could have done the same thing by having their friend tape down the mouse button with a low level psi spell attacking the rhino. If they truly did as you say and did not ban anyone then they did nothing wrong.
Again with the unconnected metaphors. If your going to use a metaphor you have to complete the connection. In chess, the rules are equivalent to the design of an mmorpg. Exploits are equivalent to someone trying to make up rules in the middle of the game. If there is a problem with the rules of chess midgame that unbalance the game you still do not change the rules midgame, you document the problem and any future game you would play with the new rules. In MMORPG's thats equivalent to either making sure players know after a certain point its considered an exploit, or just removing it from the game. But if you can just remove it from the game why threaten paying customers?
Ok players have declared everything under the sun to be an exploit before. Unless you are some kind of sheep gamer that vows never to do anything but the simplest, stupidest and most obvious way, then everything you do is likely to have been called cheating by an immature player. Even if it were not rediculous to claim that it is the paying customers responsibillity to determine weather the devlopers consider something an exploit or not, it would take an infinite amount of time to confirm every new tactic as not an exploit. Thats pretty much all you would be doing.
I have no way of forcing my boss to comply with my wishes and he has no way of forcing me to comply with his. Both parties only comply to the degree that they want to maintain the deal. Any power is only had by the fact that one party wants to maintain the deal more than the other and that is determined by competition. If I can go work somewhere else and be treated more respectfully or be paid more then I will do so and if he wants to maintain the relationship he would have to adjust his behavior. If the terms of the deal regard being available to help the boss then I would have already agreed to do that in exchange for taking the job. But anything you didn't agree to that the boss tried to do would cause you to reevaluate the deal.
There are plenty of jobs where you can tell your boss what to do because for some reason the boss needs you more than you need him at the moment. Theres high profile jobs like acting etc, but even just say being a resturaunt employee. If anyone got pissed off at the boss and left the boss would be totally screwed, and could easily be fired himself for mishandling employees. Also it might be the terms of the job that you tell him what to do. If you are some kind of advisor, or something like a sail or tour guide.
The label "boss" is pretty much limited to a very specific kind of deal in a very specific kind of enviornment where he represents the company you have a deal with and it is given that you have more desire to maintain the relationship than the company does. That does not make him an "authority figure" however, you only do what he tells you because you choose to in order to best benefit yourself.
Granted in a University system teaching classes is not the sole responsibility of the teachers, however not all teachers are useful for research and weather they fire a teacher because everyone hates him even if he is a good researcher depends solely on how much they value teaching ability in comparison to research ability.
My point in mentioning a company going bankrupt is to point out the absurdity of referring to KK as an "authority figure" simply because the market is temporarily uncompetitive, because besides the fact that there is no such thing as an authority figure the second the market becomes competitive it will be KK that has the stronger desire to maintain the contract.
No authority cannot be imposed, you can beat someone, toss them in a jail, kill them etc but that is not the same as "exacting obedience" as your definition put it. Furthermore it is said that the government has the ability to arrest you etc because by being a member of that country you agree to it, if you don't like it you can simply move to another country or island. In exchange for allowing police to arrest you when they deem it necessary you gain protection yourself from being randomly attacked and get everything else that the government provides. It is a deal in which both parties recieve something, and you do not have to participate in it, therefore it is no different.
The point of mentioning that a company most wants to maintain the deal with its customers in a competitive market is to show that once the mmorpg market becomes more competitive, better and better contracts will be offered to the customers. Since like I said it costs LESS money to simply fix "exploits" rather than chase around paying customers and ban them for "exploits", AND it makes the customers happier then a company will no longer be able to survive with a policy that allows them to ban players for exploits.
Stopping exploits DOES NOT benefit the customers. You still have yet to deal with the cut and dry argument against this... If everyone can use an exploit its not unfair for any one person to use it, if you claim otherwise then you must also claim the same thing about ALL strategies and tactics which is rediculous. THere is nothing from the players point of view that differentiates exploits from any other tactic. You said yourself it depends only on the developers intentions, and therefore only benefits the developer. If it somehow truly benefitted the players then there would HAVE to be some way to differentiate an exploit from any other tactic WITHOUT reffering to the developers intentions.
If a fix really took a few days to handle then I would simply leave it in the game until the fix was finished. However there is usually a temporary hotfix that can be used instantly such as KK uses anyways (because they cant actually stop exploiters by banning random ones) to any exploit
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You can only speak for yourself when it comes to opinions, not for others. I and many I know don't follow your philosophies, I am by no means a minority with obscure ideals.
Your generalising and exaggerating, you can't group every homeless person into another group i.e. drug users.
The south didn't make up the whole countries population, war broke out with slavery being one of the reasons and those that won the war and created a majority rule and abolished slavery.
I really think this is getting off topic.
A customer forum is a representation of a player base. They actively play the game and so its their opinions that matter, they are the paying customers. How can their opinion be "mistakenly wrong"? Because they don't agree with you?
Very few players have to worry if their exploiting as the majority of players play legitimately and don't break the rules.
[quote]Originally posted by Kriminal99
[b]
[url=http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=228] There were other examples but I couldn't be bothered to find them, but they called use of LOMS exploits everywhere at the time and the gms threatened people before they changed it. Exploits are not limited to obvious or predeclared actions. [/b][/quote]
It is being used in another context in the patch notes, an adjective not a noun. They never banned anyone for it and it wasn't considered "cheating" at the time, it was considered not fair and so was changed.
It takes time to remove something from the game. I see the exploiter as changing the rules in the middle of the game, they are using means that aren't meant to be in the game to attempt to win, thus braking the rules.
Yes but if someone tells you something is an exploit you should make sure it isn't.
It has nothing to do with competition, while you play their game under their rules of conduct, they can do what they feel necessary to make you abide by the rules, or permanently ban you.
All mmo's ban for exploiting and all mmo's will continue to. If you want to make a game where all can cheat and in game items and money mean nothing in the game, go ahead, it wont last very long though. MMO's need structure.
Funny how customers of the game disagree with you, it might not benefit cheaters but thats another story...
It ruins the purpose of the game, and there have been plenty of arguments put forward and not just by me, you just don't like them as you like to cheat.
If you leave it in-game for a few days the game can become unbalanced.
And the law can't stop crimes by arresting the criminals that they find, if someone is guilty they have to be punished. In a game cheaters shouldn't get away with it, there has to be repercussions to their actions and kk enforce them.
It takes time to remove something from the game. I see the exploiter as changing the rules in the middle of the game, they are using means that aren't meant to be in the game to attempt to win, thus braking the rules.
Yes but if someone tells you something is an exploit you should make sure it isn't.
It has nothing to do with competition, while you play their game under their rules of conduct, they can do what they feel necessary to make you abide by the rules, or permanently ban you.
All mmo's ban for exploiting and all mmo's will continue to. If you want to make a game where all can cheat and in game items and money mean nothing in the game, go ahead, it wont last very long though. MMO's need structure.
Funny how customers of the game disagree with you, it might not benefit cheaters but thats another story...
It ruins the purpose of the game, and there have been plenty of arguments put forward and not just by me, you just don't like them as you like to cheat.
If you leave it in-game for a few days the game can become unbalanced.
And the law can't stop crimes by arresting the criminals that they find, if someone is guilty they have to be punished. In a game cheaters shouldn't get away with it, there has to be repercussions to their actions and kk enforce them.
I didn't say that you followed the philosophy consiously, I said you follow it unconsiously meaning your emotions are based off it. But unless you give money to any beggar off the street, and have never talked about anyone badly behind their back, etc then you have followed your emotions which are based on this philosophy and therefore have followed it consiously in a sense as well.
I wasn't generalizing anything, I didn't say anything about homeless people in that example. I said IF it actually happened that someone you gave money to was using it for drugs and you then stopped giving money to people without knowing anything about them then you are a subscriber to my philosophy. Try explaining this phenonomon without my philosophy, or tell me that you give money to people without knowing anything about them.
The slavery is off topic but it was not majority rule in the south. The simple fact is the rule went against people wanted. And there are plenty of examples where lawmakers declare something wrong that people didn't previously want and it sticks because they are convinced or do not think it is wrong enough to make a big deal about.
Peoples opinion can be mistakenly wrong when it is based on very flawed reasoning. There is one and only one right answer to every question, and one and only one best answer to every question where all information is not provided. but anyways the point of that statement was that you are overestimating the number of people who agree with you, both on the forums and in the game. Anti-exploiters are by no means the majority.
Ok... QUOTE: "Very few players have to worry if their exploiting as the majority of players play legitimately and don't break the rules." What the hell does this mean? If they "play legitmately" but they exploit they wont get in trouble? This is like politician level issue dodging right here. The point was they can't even TELL what the rules are and therefore must worry about everything they do and your response is they can tell what the rules are because they don't break the rules?
No they did not use it JUST in a different context in the patch notes, there were other posts where it was used as a noun if I thought it would help I would track them down to but since you simply refuse to acknowledge any proof of anything you don't agree with it would be pointless. Thats some of the only evidence left of the fact that they started calling it exploit, and its provides SOME proof of what I am saying because why would they even play with the word "exploit" for something that was just an unexpected use when exploit entails bannabillity. They posted about it in the forums several times before the patch notes and gms were talking about it in the forums and in game as an exploit, and also threatened people.
Rules of a board game are very specific and clear because their purpose is to define what can and cannot be done, like the design of an mmorpg. There is no parallell of mmorpg rules in a board game because if you can physically control what a player can and can't do then what the heck would you need rules for? The concept of "exploiter" is completely impossible in a board game because THE ONLY things that are not allowed in a board game is what the rules SPECIFICALLY STATE. Anything else is not only fair game, but is in fact the PURPOSE OF THE GAME. Try and find one board game that has a rule even remotely resembling a MMORPG rule against exploiting. If someone broke the rules in a board game then they would be a cheater not an exploiter. An exploiter in a board game would just be called a clever person who came up with a new strategy, and an anti-exploiter is just someone that whines about not seeing it coming.
Again, Noone is going to spend their entire gaming time allotment checking and rechecking every possible action with the developers because a sore loser called it exploiting.
Not having a "ban exploiter" policy does nothing to promote exploiting. KK hasn't stopped anyone from exploiting with their bs. Why do you think they still need to remove tools, lower xp, keep anyone from discussing exploits on the forums? Wake up and smell the coffee. Banning doesn't even work, it has no effect on reducing exploiting, all it does is piss off the players.
Its not a majority that dislikes exploiting because a person has to be brainwashed before they even know what an exploit is. And even if there was a majority belief in that, as long as those opinions were based on flawed reasoning then it still would not be in the people's interest. They just wouldn't realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.
I do not cheat, and players have all kinds of misconstrued ideas about the purpose of the game but that doesn't determine weather they like the game or not. They like the game or not depending on weather or not its fun. If one game ceases to be fun they can just go play a different one, and therefore exploiting is of no importance to them.
If a game has a bug that can be exploited and there truly is no way to stop it by a minor tweak that you don't even need to patch for, AND its so bad that its going to unbalance the game then its going to unbalance the game weather you ban exploiters or not. Furthermore you can simply rebalance the game afterwords by say raising npc prices for a wekk or something. But I can't possibly imagine a bug that couldn't be temp fixed by changing something else anyways.
Before you can draw a likeness between exploiting and a REAL crime you have to prove that there is something wrong with it without begging the question. Anyways there are alot of "crimes" as well that are not truly crimes in the traditional sense - The person committing them is not commiting an aggressive act with the intention to hurt someone else. They are declared crimes because it is believed that stopping it will raise the general happiness of the community. For example speeding.
Someone might claim after it is well known that if you speed you are hurting people. But before this can be done, it actually has to be PROVEN that speeding is dangerous. This is like exploiting, except they just skipped to the part where they try to make people feel bad about it without ever having proven that it is harmful to the community.
All of your arguments are heavily based on the presumption that there is something wrong with exploiting, yet you don't have a legitimate argument of how it is wrong to begin with...
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First of all, the majority of players are brainwashed against exploiting? Ah, i see is that because they disagree with you?
Anyway, exploiting is wrong because it unbalances the game, and breaks the rules. By knowing what the rules are and the purpose of the game, players can tell what and what isn't exploiting and the majority do, of those that exploit most know their doing it too, they are just deluded that they'll get away with it.
If you read back through my posts you will see plenty of reasons why I believe exploiting is wrong, they are there you just fail to except them, your argument is based on if everyone cheats it ok, well imo its not ok, cheating ruins games and destroys their purpose, some people prefer to use skill in games to win. As for my argument is based on presumptions, I fail to see any facts in yours either. Banning does prevent exploiting, there are a lot less problems with exploiting now in nc than there were a year ago, those that happen now are minor and kk deal with them swiftly.
Not because they disagree with me but because A) they are wrong, and
because awareness of exploiting as something the player has a moral obligation not to do does not even arise until a mmorpg dev tries to force the idea on himher.
No you have layed out right here pretty much the reasons why you think exploiting is wrong that you have used in the other posts. Most of your posts have not had arguments to this end.
Does it unbalance the game? No not if everyone uses it. Does it break the rules? Yes, if the rules say something against it, but rules for their own sake do not have any value. If a law says I have to kill someone is it wrong not to kill someone just because its a law? oO What is your argument for claiming that exploits are wrong that actually makes sense?
"some people prefer to use skill rather than cheat" Once again you are begging the question. To call one tactic cheating and another skill you have to explain why one is cheating and hence why it is wrong. The only difference is weather the developers wanted you to do it or not and therefore it is not "right or wrong" A whole game could be made in which the point was to find things that other games called exploits and use them to your advantage. - And before you say "its their game so its wrong" well thats assuming that the developer would call it an exploit and were trying to figure weather they should or not in order to be competitive and in the right.
There are a lot less PEOPLE in neocron now then there was a while ago lol... And I said it doesn't stop exploiting, as in altogether prevent.
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Exploiting topic has been moved to here where those poor "brainwashed" souls can now argue the issue. I have gave reasoning why I am against it, I'll let others take over now as you are repeating yourself as much as I am and you fail to except anyone elses arguments but your own.
LOL what argument? There never was any argument for why exploiting was wrong that wasn't begging the question.... Here is what I have seen and why anyone can see the arguments were wrong:
"If noone knows the exploit not everyone can use it so its an unfair advantage" - Unless people can never discover it its not unfair, to follow this reasoning you would have to ban every tactic that wasn't given to every player before use....
"Exploiting is wrong, breaking the rules, metaphors to commiting crimes" - circular argument, you have to prove its wrong before you can say its wrong or call it a crime, and we are debating weather or not it SHOULD be a rule.
"It makes the game not as fun for as long" - So does poor game balance or lack of endgame, does that mean players should be banned for using playing unbalanced characters, playing to the end of the game, or not compensating for every design mistake the developers may make?
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To Cyphor/ Kriminal99
Respect
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
The issue I have with the 'prove its wrong first' argument is this
The real world doesnt work on those principles, laws are not retrospectively drawn up after a new crime has been 'discovered' - certain acts and actions are just _known_ to be 'wrong' and are thus judged illegal, we have laws that are broad in scope (and courts to argue the specifics of each case) because it is not practical (or even possible?) to draw up specific laws for every specific crime
In the same vein the EULA you agree to when you play these games contains broad 'laws' (you will not cheat etc) designed to cover all 'illegal' behaviour - again its impractical (impossible?) to expect devs to rule on every single activity in game (especially if none of the players are reporting it) but in most cases (certainly the most damaging 'exploits' its bloody obvious to the player that either they shouldnt be doing what they are doing or that the result of their actions wasnt intended - unfortunately the mental age of alot of players (and I'll go so far as to say specifically the ones I have met playing Neocron) is such that these 'advantages' are used without pause (and either without stopping to consider if it was intended or proceeding to use it with the knowledge that is is not intended) because of the hyper-competitive nature of some people (despte the fact that the 'achievement' is a hollow one)
Going by your 'standards' whenever I start a new game I should/must spend my initial game time trying to find as many 'advantages' as I can just to keep pace with the 'clever' players
Sorry but that a load of tosh - if tose 'features' arent listed in the manual then its pretty obvious they are unintended, at which point thier use should be avoided and/or reported to the devs (if for no other reason than to check if is ok to use it - then you'll be in the clear if you do)
Thats bull.. If something is really wrong then there is a reason why it is wrong and someone damn well better know what that reason is before you try and get people in trouble for it. Yeah people sometimes try and hurt someone else because they "feel" what that person is doing is wrong but have no clue why... like KKK members for instance. Its called ignorance and stupidity. And exploits are obviously NOT wrong. In any case it is certainly absolutely meaningless for people to run around calling it cheating without even knowing why its not fair.
Any aggressive act is wrong because you are attempting to hurt someone else to relieve yourself of your own insecurity. But in doing so you cause the other person insecurity and therefore break the golden rule and make yourself a hypocrite. (Btw people that argue against exploits resort to aggresive acts all the time even while calling exploits wrong)
But exploiting is not an aggresive act. You don't do it with the intent of hurting someone else. Its like the example I used with cyphor: Speeding. Before you can make speeding against the law and call people immoral for speeding you have to determine that doing it actually has a negative effect on the community. In the case of speeding it does because speeding means going faster then posted speed limits which are supposed to be designed with the slowest speed someone might be traveling after entering the road in mind (relative speeds are what matters) But the truth is probably half the cops that pop off at the mouth about speeding don't even know why its wrong. If speeding didn't have an overall effect on safety they would probably still be mouthing off about it to everyone.
Determining the overall effect on happiness in a mmorpg or anywhere else of allowing any one strategy or exploit is by no means easy and if you believe otherwise you are dilluding yourself. Why do you think so many developers fail in the task of creating a game that many people enjoy? Calling an exploit wrong or cheating in any way shape or form is totally invalid unless you have done a perfect analysis of the results both with and without. Say you wanted to know if rocket jumping in an online fps made it better or worse. Even I would hesitate at knowing where to start at such a task... You would have to get totally unbiased players and either hack open their brains and look for physical signs that they had fun, or maybe just take a poll but then you would have to realize that some people would say they didn't like it just because they couldn't do it yet etc.
Removing all your propaganda rules you have just that it is in the contract, but the argument is to determine if it SHOULD be in the contract.
The manual does not tell you how to climb your way up a moutain by finding soft spots where most of the moutain is too steep and then snipe people that would take 30 minutes to find how to get where you are. That doesn't make this an exploit, although some developers might try to claim it is which is obviously rediculous. This kind of thing is the most fun part of the game for someone like me and is exactly why I hate antiexploiting policies. As far as I'm concerned they ought to rename them anti-intelligence policies.
And what is different about discovering exploits than discovering strategies that other people use in a game? Nothing. If other people fight in third person so they can see behind them better you can learn that from them. If other people hide part of their bodies behind walls so they can shoot you and you can't shoot them you can learn that from them. If other people find ways to get to hard to reach places, or anything else you can learn it and do it too. Same with exploits.
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sure=)