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Jumpgate Evolution: PvP: Conflicts and Considerations
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
NetDevil Programmer Steve "Istvan" Hartmeyer stops by once more to talk about the upcoming MMORPG, Jumpgate Evolution. In this new developer journal Hartmeyer talks about PvP in the sci-fi game.
The issue of PvP features in Jumpgate Evolution has the appearance of being extremely controversial, making the subject sensitive for the development team to address. Jumpgate Evolution is in many ways derived from Jumpgate Classic, and the original game's community has become extremely agitated over the potential changes coming in the new product. Even before Jumpgate Evolution appeared on the horizon, PvP was a divisive issue for the Jumpgate Classic community. Jumpgate Classic was designed from the start as a PvP game. Its simplistic PvE gameplay was a late-beta addition, nearly an afterthought. For some players, however, the available PvE became a major draw and main point of the game. For many others, PvP combat was simply never interesting or important because other activities and styles of play were more enjoyable.
Discussions of PvP matters in Jumpgate have a tendency to take on aspects of religious warfare. There are two diametrically opposed camps within the Jumpgate community, and there appears to be no dissuading members of either side. One group insists that "No place in the game should be safe from PvP", while the other side demands "Don't push your RP on me." As developers, we absolutely must build our game to appeal to the most customers possible, maximizing commercial success, or we risk inability to offset the costs of development. The PvP issue is so strongly polarizing, however, that the forms of PvP gameplay we provide can powerfully affect the number of customers we might attract. Despite the obvious conflict, we want to build a sound PvP system for Jumpgate Evolution that will satisfy many of the extremists in both camps, while also ensuring there is plenty of room in the game for people who don't wish PvP to be the entirety of their game experience.
;)
Read it all here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Good post.
The biggest problem of JGE to tackle is its own JGC community.
JGC was hardcore PVP game - in true PVP spirit of Shadowbane or UO. And its old community expects JGE to be the same.
But games with such hardcore pvp are not usually comercially succesful. JGC was a struggling game just like Shadowbane , or the latest example Fury.
To be succesful JGE has to blend PVE and PVP in a unique way
And old JGC community is very likely to come short and furious over this.
But its the only way for JGE to become mainstream and not niche game.
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
I am interested in the PvE and not the PvP.
PvP is one of the reasons that Eve Online is not as large as it could be.
PvE is one of the reasons why WoW is as successful as it is.
Earth and Beyond was very successful because it was PvE and if EA had not bought Westwood I am willing to bet that it would still be around today.
If you want to have PvP in the game make it optional. That is the best way. The next choice is to have certain high reward areas that would draw people to them as PvP only areas. Not as effective but at least middle ground.
If this game is going to be major PvP then I am not interested in it anymore.
They should be watching what's happening in POTBS. The lack of PVP and overall PVP design is creating some problems for the PVPr's, some are already leaving.
I hope they don't make the same mistake of ignoring Solo PVP. Auto Assaults PVP design was a disaster.
As a long time EVE player I'm eagerly following Jumpgate's development.
EVE does not possess 'wholly safe' zones. While pvp'ers in those zones sacrifice their ships if they attack anyone, it's much more common than one would believe. Suicide ganking in high security space is a very profitable profession in eve; by catching lazy empire haulers laden with high end minerals, loot, manufacturing materials its possible to make billions off a single kill, which is certainly worth suiciding a ship for.
A spatial separation between PvP and non-PvP areas appears to be the way to go, e.g. we have the "core sections" which are so heavily guarded by NPC police and AI defence systems that not even the most skilled solo PvPer can cause serious havoc; and the "frontier" sectors where basically "everything goes". So non-PvP, "carebear" players can go about their businesses in almost complete safety (from unconsensual PvP at least).
I'm not a PvPer myself - in almost all MMOGs I've played so far I somehow ended up spending a good deal of my time mining or hauling stuff - but even I like the feeling of danger, not to know what lurks in the next sector, or just outside my radar range.
JGE has a somewhat unique opportunity to re-define PvP in a MMO due to the true skill based combat.
Unlike EVE, or the classic SWG, or the founding UO, where the "skill" systems were merely use based skill leveling (or leveling over time of skills); JGE is truly "twitch" based skill.
So indeed a "noob" who is a hot hand with his/her joystick can and SHOULD be able to compete with the grizzled veteran spacer.
Looking at what has been successful, and where other modern titles under construction are going, the idea of shards with varying rule sets is most likely the most well received and profitable solution.
1. You need to have PvE oriented servers where PvP is either purely consensual (i.e. entering a specific instanced area) or a toggle of some sort. Be it guild vs. guild conflicts, it's still a form of a PvP toggle. Be it specific PvP missions or star systems, it's still a form of toggle.
2. You also need to have more PvP oriented servers where PvP is consensual only because you chose that server type. These still need to have "safe" areas such as home worlds/star systems. Even the hardcore PvPer wants to take a break and chat, sell loot, repair etc. in relative safety.
My suggestion for this type of server would be a faction based system. Not only does it create a sense of belonging which adds greatly to immersion, but it garauntees even the solo PvPer some backup and assistance.
On the other hand, the sci-fi space based universe lends itself greatly for the role of Pirate. Lawless, solo PKs who who just want to watch the world burn and get rich in the process.
This is fine, this kind of FFA element, but the ONE thing you HAVE to do to make FFA work is make the consequences of choosing the "dark" path very severe. Just the fact that because you attack anyone, anyone can attack you is NOT enough consequence for the PK. You have to make the role of anti-PK much more lucrative and valuable then the role of PK, for starters. Otherwise, you'll end up just like UO were the ganker/griefer ruled the day.
For FFA to work you have to make players really have to think about whether or not they should attack another player. If just given the option to attack, many will because they have no fear of retaliation or just consequence. This has been the #1 problem with all FFA PvP games.
It's hard to make players feel the consequences of their devious action in a MMO. It's just a game, why not kill that poor noob and steal his hard earned stuff? Or simple kill him for fun!
To do FFA PvP you need harsh consequences for the PK, and very, very lucrative rewards for the Anti-PK. I garauntee you'll still get plenty of PKs, but (hopefully) you'll also get enough Anti-PKs to balance things out.
Sometimes the arguments on the JGC and JGE boards can give a false impression of the game enviroment. For the most part the PVE players and the PVP players are the same people who divide their their time between both activities. You can't make a living PVPing only so almost all PVPers have to get involved in the other aspects of the game, and almost all PVE players have at one time or another tried PVP.
Most of the play going on at any one time is PVE and the players can go about their lives quite safely, but it's true you are never entirely safe and despite the penalties sometimes you are attacked for political reasons or just for the hell of it. People perceived as greifers are generally hunted down by the PVPers or by traders and haulers who get into fighting ships. This together with the economic hit means that its relatively rare, but the vocal reaction to it can make it appear much more common than it is.
I have played this game for 6 years, most of the time as a PVPer, I have around 600 kills thats about 100 a year, this game is not "Quake in Space" you can PVP for hours and not get a kill sometimes, which makes them when they come all the sweeter.
Despite this I would not be interested in a PVP only game, the ability and necessity of PVE give the game depth. OK if it's needed make certain areas safer in JGE but not completly safe as in Eve. But when you've got half the peeps complaining that the penalties for a rip are too high and half complaining that they are too low you've probably got it about right.
PS. In my opinion they are probably a little too high at the moment as Pirating is almost gone and some pure PVPers are voting with their feet, I dont see the PVE guys going.
EVE does not possess 'wholly safe' zones. While pvp'ers in those zones sacrifice their ships if they attack anyone, it's much more common than one would believe. Suicide ganking in high security space is a very profitable profession in eve; by catching lazy empire haulers laden with high end minerals, loot, manufacturing materials its possible to make billions off a single kill, which is certainly worth suiciding a ship for.
I suspect that type of "gaming the game" will be squashed in Eve, much like all the other high sec exploits of the past were.
Would be nice to see no safe zones whether being RvR or FFA especially because controls will be twitched based.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
EVE does not possess 'wholly safe' zones. While pvp'ers in those zones sacrifice their ships if they attack anyone, it's much more common than one would believe. Suicide ganking in high security space is a very profitable profession in eve; by catching lazy empire haulers laden with high end minerals, loot, manufacturing materials its possible to make billions off a single kill, which is certainly worth suiciding a ship for.
I suspect that type of "gaming the game" will be squashed in Eve, much like all the other high sec exploits of the past were.
Hardly..
And yeah.. the developers of a space MMO not 100% understanding eve is pretty epic fail in my books
I kind of like the Ideal of space cops if your hauling for a group or doing questing for a company they should provide the security. Dont mean you wont get pirated but at least you have someone covering your escape and or butt.And if I had a business or company I would surely provide said security in my zone.
So why coudnt NPC do the same.The real world is not totaly safe but we do feel protection from are laws and police.I believe.
I dont want to have a game were I cant take chances,But I wouldnt want a free pass If I decided to become one with the universe's ten most wanted list.
Random thoughts from a random type of guy.
I would like to see something like a freelancer type experience - crossed with th RvR they mentioned.
So say I could do trade runs deep in freindly territory for medium profit with low risk of attack. Or maybe I could smuggle stuff through disputed territory for high profit with high risk of attack.
Then if I expect to get paid enough on the trip I could hire some protection to defend me.
As long as there is some way to rate the protection services so I know if I am hiring good people.
From the FFA pvp vs PvE - the main reason I see for the big division between the two groups - whilst both are paying to play the game, PvE players dont interfere in the PvP players fun, but FFA PvP can seriously interfere in the PvE players fun.
so what was the point of all that verbiage?
we learned absolutely nothing about how either PVP or PVE is going to be handled
not a surprise of course because that is usually what we get from the reports, news items, dev chats blah blah blah on this site
I'm sure it's been said above, but the answer appears obvious to me, multiple servers:
1) Pure PvE, no PvP at all
2) Balanced PvE with PvP that is faction based (or consensual duelling type thing)
3) Pure PvP, no PvE at all
Personally, I wouldn't be interested in #1, but may well wish to have at least one character on each of #2 and #3, probably favouring #2.
Whatever the decision, Jumpgate Evolution is sounding like one of the most innovative MMORPGs in production and I'm looking forward to it. So enough chatting, get on with developing it!
--
First: DAOC
Current: WAR
Played: PotBS, WoW, DDO, LOTRO, SWG, 9D
Anticipating: Stargate Worlds, Warhammer 40k Online
In the earliest days of Jumpgate Classic, there were no safe zones, and it didn't work. Certain players would literally camp right outside the exit ports of the starting space stations, and gank noob pilots immediately after they launched to space for the first time.
At lot of times, in the chat channels, you could tell that the noobs didn't even really understand what had happened before they were dead.
NetDevil asked the gankers to stop, explaining that it only hurt the game as a whole by discouraging new players, but it didn't stop.
JGC started losing new players in droves, and the policy of "PvP everywhere, all time" had to be top-down modified pretty quickly thereafter.
I don't like the concept of having multiple independant servers for the game (example: WoW).
I like to be able to "see" anybody who is playing the game (example: Eve, Guild Wars). If they didn't authorize to travel from a certain server type to another, that would bug me.
So I'd really like they try to sort it out., without resorting to not-fully satisfying solutions like multiple server-types.
I think Eve Online would be more successful if it was a little more noob friendly. Also, Eve is a space game. If it was a swords-and-sorcery game, there'd probably be more subscriptions (not that I'd want that personally: Eve is perfect as it is for me^^ I'm just saying).
I think these are the real reasons why Eve is not that successful, not because it's PvP-oriented.
If they make JGE a PvP-oriented sandbox game like Eve (= with quasi-safe zones for PvE players (or PvP players who need a break)), and make it easier to get into, I think many people might be drawn and stick to it.
Making a game oriented for PvE players and adding just the minimum to make PvP players play the games is not the suitable solution. OK, PvE players may play the game if it's good enough. But PvP players are just too picky ^^ and will get sick of the lack of liberty rather quickly.
---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
Very true, as a PvP type of player, I cannot stand a game where I do not have full range ion where I can PvP. I am picky about that
.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
The usual rabies soaked fanboys whining over why they newer game won't be as hardcore. Honestly do they think that a game is going to be successful if it only allows all but a few of the elite being able to play? Any normal mmo player is going to go for that. They want a fun enjoyable experience not some mountain dew code red induced laser trauma fest. Learn to enjoy and respect the pve/pvp balance because that's usually what the majority favor.
Bollocks!
First off, this aticle is a total waiste of time. They didn't clarify ONE thing they were going to do in pvp. Just a bunch of gibberish about PVP in other games and the fact some people like it and some don't
What a freaking waiste of time reading that.
2nd to the comment EVE is a "epic fail"
Are you living in some bazzaro universe or something? Eve is going very strong, more populated then ever, with MUCH more releasing in the future (like walking avatars). Eve is a very well designed game with so many different areas you can get into. It is very Epic, but I don't see your fail. The graphics in eve are stunning with the Trinity upgrade. Infact all the free upgrades and expansions have been strong.
Eve is by far the most advanced game structure from the industry/market to all the different aspects of combat. They even have a real economist working studying the market to give reports on.
Eve's pvp system is the best I've seen in a MMO and EVE does what NO OTHER mmo can. Has all it's people on the SAME SERVER.
SHOHADAKU
Nice book report, it read like something I wrote in high school.
Hopefully later we might actually get some facts.
Not just a breakdown of PvP in other games.
Aspirant
There is no Absolute Truth or Absolute Reality. That Truth is whatever the majority on hand want it to be. Real Truth is egalitarian and democratic and not at all compelled to correspond to the world in any useful way. Truth has no respect for Right, What's Best, or Needs Must. Real Truth is a dangerous beast in need of caging in even the quietest of times.
Ask any prince or priest.
Real Truth was the First Traitor.
-- Glen Cook
1 and 3 wouldnt work imo in JG.. Most old JG players did both PVP and PVE. Most did do mining, and hauling and kill "monsters/aliens", even if they were seen as PVPers. Lets just say it wouldnt be Jumpgate if there was Pure PVP and pure PVE servers.. The story would contradict the game ..
2. Wouldnt play that game, tried Potbs, and while its kind of cool being a pirate, its to safe, it lacks much more PVP.
I do support a sort of like EVE system..
Failing to see how EVE is a holy grail that posters above imgainge themself to be... anyway.
The best would be JGC pre MTpatch system.. with some minor modifications.. So look innwards before you start looking out for answers.
My cool sig: Turrets suck.
Amazing that some posters lack the ability to read into an article such as this. If its not listed in straight forward prose they just can't understand or infer from it.
Here's what I learned. JE will not have totally unrestricted PVP like the original one did. This is news to me, and I'm glad to hear it. I do like to PVP, but I like how EVE has implemented it.
We know that Netdevil is working hard to come up with a new model for PVP/PVE balance that will draw from, but try not to copy previously successful PVP models.
They want the game to succeed financially, so they will be trying to cater to all sorts of customers, both PVE and PVP. (also news to me). So that means there's a better chance for a healthy population and a more interesting game.
I also learned that they realize their hardcore PVP Jumpgate crowd numbers in ....the hundreds perhaps, while their potential market of players who've never heard of Jumpgate is in the millions. Guess which market they're going to try and target?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm really interested in this title I just wish I played the original Jumpgate which I never have.
I understand both sides of the argument on PvP and both sides have legitimate reasons.
I have argued in the past on other mmorpg titles and stated alot of facts on PvP. Many die-hard PvPers use scripting programs or what others call hacking, cheating whatever you want to call it, this is a fact not fantasy.
No matter what security features a company puts in place to make an attempt at stopping players from scripting there's always a work around, period.
It can never be stopped and no matter how loud someone screams that they don't use hacks they are usually the ones who do.
But enough of that here is an example of what gaming companies should implement and it's more than feasible.
Run multiple servers, some servers for pure PvP, some for PvP and PvE combined and some strictly for PvE. Then you satisfy every customer and greatly enlarge your subscriber base, simple as 1,2,3.
It has been done with past online games so a company that claims it is not possible is a company that is lazy as all hell.
Can't use JGC as a useful measuring stick for a good way to do PvP.
An all PvE server COULD work in JGE.
An all PvP server would be JGC, limiting the game to the tiny community that JGC has.
PvE + PvP obviously is the way to go, with *safe* PvE areas. That has the broadest appeal.
Humors me to see people say things like "I can't understand why people would want to play a MMO only to PvE?" Talk about a narrow mind. Its easily reversible to: "I can't understand why people would want to play a MMO only to PvP?" After all, any number of games (such as freelancer and JGC!) already fill the space PvP niche quite well, and if all else fails, could always play Eve and live in 0.0 space.
I dont have a problem with open PvP. I like the way WoW does it. You get killed by a player, you lose nothing but time going back to you body from the graveyard. The person who killed you, gets honor points, if withing a certain level span, otherwise nothing.
If the penalties for dieing by another player are harsh, forget it. If you die by an NPC, yes, penalties should be harsh to some extent.
I admit, I have ganked lower characters just for the fun of it. The problem is, they anounce it on global chat and within minutes, I am getting my *&^$ handed to me by higher level characters. I rez and get the heck out of Dodge.
You dont need huge rewards for killing other players. Maybe medals, recognition and or experience, depending on the level spread. When you start losing your hard earned cash and items to PvP, it kills the fun in the game.
Call me a carebear, I dont care. I play to have fun and losing everything to someone who has a bigger, more powerful ship and a much higher level than you are, is no fun.
The me who hears what the other me can't, is the dominant one.