So why isn't there a run skill stat that the higher it is allows me to move faster thus allowing me to better dodge attacks by moving out of the way? This is a game, why can't I have control over my character? Asheron's Call (Turbines first game which made them rich and a big player in the MMORPG industry) was about stats but they allowed me to move out of the way to dodge attacks.
Sorry, I don't think you'll find any MMO developers here. If you seriously want a discussion about this then post it over in LoTRo's official forums. The devs will occasionally drop by and give very detailed reasons on certain aspects of the game. I can't say if they will respond for sure, but if they do it may actually be an explanation that means something... as any of the responses here will just be opinions.
In the end it boils down to: That is the way the game plays. If it's not fun for you because of it... hopefully you can find a game that is fun for you.
That being said... LoTRo does a better job than some previous MMOs as far as the problem you are stating. It doesn't let you shoot through rocks, trees, walls, or closed doorways to hit your target. I'm sure you've seen the infamous "you have lost line of sight" message. Also, if you shoot a mob and then quickly duck out of sight; you will probably take one hit... but the mob can't continually hit you until it re-establishes line-of-sight as well. This means that it will come out and seek to find you; which works very well in certain situations.
So yeah, you have to put up with that first shot that might hit you when you are behind a wall, rock, or tree. However, once you get used to how it works it really is a great tactic to pull mobs to you. As to why even the first shot has to be that way... well, that's for a Turbine dev. to answer.
Edit:
I did a bit of digging and this is what I've learned. I don't have links or quotes yet, as it's mostly hear-say, or second-hand. So, remember it's just a theory; NOT fact.
LoTRo determines whether an action is "legal" or not at the time the action is initiated; NOT at the time the action completes. So, as long as an action is "legal" when it is "cast" it will finish. This goes for ranged shots hitting you or your target even though when the missile arrives it should no longer be legal. Once an action is completed it will hit it's target regardless of the conditions when the missile arrives.
So, if you want to "dodge" missile attacks... you can. You just have to make sure that the missile attack can never be initiated. Quite a bit more challenging than the other way around. See, LoTRo is even more challenging than you thought. Yes, that was said with a bit of tongue-in-cheek.
Thanks for the good laugh.
Originally posted by Krogg
Originally posted by Scottc
I'm starting at the bottom. Why haven't any of the games on the market fixed this flaw? It'd be nice if I had some control over my character.
It's no flaw. Diff comp speeds effect players abilities to 'move' often and should not be a factor in play. Movement can already be utilized by getting behind someone while they cast, getting out of bowshot range, or too close for it, etc, moving out of the way for an attack just isn't feasable in a program. Animations are usually just that, and the time you think you have to move isn't really there.
Your computer speed should not affect your ability to move thanks to a beautiful thing called time delta, where the distance you move is based on how much time its been since the last time your position was updated rather than basing your movement speed directly on the framerate. This has been standard programming practice in game development since the quake series. If you want to argue that framerate affects your ability to move, then I'll argue that it also affects your ability to cast spells, use special abilities, and initiate combat. You say its not feasible in a program, and yet the oldest games have it. Please read the original posts.
Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
Or maybe some of us prefer to sit back and relax during a PvE exchange. If I want to dodge or time my attacks, and all that BS, I'll play an FPS or a fighter.
Granted, there have been some s*** mmo's recently.
So why isn't there a run skill stat that the higher it is allows me to move faster thus allowing me to better dodge attacks by moving out of the way? This is a game, why can't I have control over my character? Asheron's Call (Turbines first game which made them rich and a big player in the MMORPG industry) was about stats but they allowed me to move out of the way to dodge attacks.
Sorry, I don't think you'll find any MMO developers here. If you seriously want a discussion about this then post it over in LoTRo's official forums. The devs will occasionally drop by and give very detailed reasons on certain aspects of the game. I can't say if they will respond for sure, but if they do it may actually be an explanation that means something... as any of the responses here will just be opinions.
In the end it boils down to: That is the way the game plays. If it's not fun for you because of it... hopefully you can find a game that is fun for you.
That being said... LoTRo does a better job than some previous MMOs as far as the problem you are stating. It doesn't let you shoot through rocks, trees, walls, or closed doorways to hit your target. I'm sure you've seen the infamous "you have lost line of sight" message. Also, if you shoot a mob and then quickly duck out of sight; you will probably take one hit... but the mob can't continually hit you until it re-establishes line-of-sight as well. This means that it will come out and seek to find you; which works very well in certain situations.
So yeah, you have to put up with that first shot that might hit you when you are behind a wall, rock, or tree. However, once you get used to how it works it really is a great tactic to pull mobs to you. As to why even the first shot has to be that way... well, that's for a Turbine dev. to answer.
Edit:
I did a bit of digging and this is what I've learned. I don't have links or quotes yet, as it's mostly hear-say, or second-hand. So, remember it's just a theory; NOT fact.
LoTRo determines whether an action is "legal" or not at the time the action is initiated; NOT at the time the action completes. So, as long as an action is "legal" when it is "cast" it will finish. This goes for ranged shots hitting you or your target even though when the missile arrives it should no longer be legal. Once an action is completed it will hit it's target regardless of the conditions when the missile arrives.
So, if you want to "dodge" missile attacks... you can. You just have to make sure that the missile attack can never be initiated. Quite a bit more challenging than the other way around. See, LoTRo is even more challenging than you thought. Yes, that was said with a bit of tongue-in-cheek.
Thanks for the good laugh.
Originally posted by Krogg
Originally posted by Scottc
I'm starting at the bottom. Why haven't any of the games on the market fixed this flaw? It'd be nice if I had some control over my character.
It's no flaw. Diff comp speeds effect players abilities to 'move' often and should not be a factor in play. Movement can already be utilized by getting behind someone while they cast, getting out of bowshot range, or too close for it, etc, moving out of the way for an attack just isn't feasable in a program. Animations are usually just that, and the time you think you have to move isn't really there.
Your computer speed should not affect your ability to move thanks to a beautiful thing called time delta, where the distance you move is based on how much time its been since the last time your position was updated rather than basing your movement speed directly on the framerate. This has been standard programming practice in game development since the quake series. If you want to argue that framerate affects your ability to move, then I'll argue that it also affects your ability to cast spells, use special abilities, and initiate combat. You say its not feasible in a program, and yet the oldest games have it. Please read the original posts.
Yeah it effects those things as well, but they can be times outside of the client and occur when they are supposed to. I play with someone who lags badly, and yes they often get stuck or stopped when trying to move about quickly.
And why do I need to enlighten you? I don't even care about this thread really, I'm just killing time until my tea is ready then I'm playing some LOTRO, which I love.
Guess how many people I've heard complain ingame about this problem you have... ZERO.
So maybe it isn't us that have it all wrong, we are enjoying our game immensley, even without you gracing our servers.
So maybe YOU should enlighten us as to why this problem you think is important - a problem 200k LOTRO players don't have , and why you think it would improve the game. Actually, nm, my kettle just started whistling.
Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
Even if the game recognizes movement and places the char where they are supposed to be accordingly, anyone who has ever played on a crap system knows that framerate can suck so badly that you often have a hard time even seeing all the live action, attacks, movements, spells, etc. On low-end pc's it's like a stutter-fest and how can anyone be expected to time their movements to avoid attacks when they can't even see everything that's happening?
Your computer speed should not affect your ability to move thanks to a beautiful thing called time delta, where the distance you move is based on how much time its been since the last time your position was updated rather than basing your movement speed directly on the framerate. This has been standard programming practice in game development since the quake series. If you want to argue that framerate affects your ability to move, then I'll argue that it also affects your ability to cast spells, use special abilities, and initiate combat. You say its not feasible in a program, and yet the oldest games have it. Please read the original posts.
What other RPGMMO game had it? I was aware of only AC.
Given the fact that almost every single RPGMMO ever created doesn't have it the way you're describing... do you think there might be the slightest possibility that the developers of all these MMOs both present and past had a reason to not implement it?
If it was as easy and such a no-brainer... chances are it would have been done quite a few times before. Chances are it would be the norm if there wasn't a lot of technical issues with implementing it. I'm not a developer or a programmer for a large MMO, so I don't know the technical aspects of what it would take to make it work.
However, since it isn't being done by the vast majority of MMOs... it probably isn't just a "toggle-switch" feature.
Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
Mine doesn't lag at all. But I did spend $3k on it. Not everyone can afford a decent comp.
TBH, if they did implement this change you seek, I'd quit the game.
edit: and when I say 'even' I mean in everything. PvMP or PvE. I'd be a better tank than jimmy if jimmy couldn't time his movements right because he has a slower proc or less ram. Right now jimmy and I tank based on skills with the attacks and blocks, which we can both use to equal effectiveness.
One last wee point to add before I level my Grd. Even if the game recognizes movement and places the char where they are supposed to be accordingly, anyone who has ever played on a crap system knows that framerate can suck so badly that you often have a hard time even seeing all the live action, attacks, movements, spells, etc. On low-end pc's it's like a stutter-fest and how can anyone be expected to time their movements to avoid attacks when they can't even see everything that's happening?
Please read my posts that respond to you so I don't have to repeat myself. If you're stuttering enough or getting low enough framerate to be unable to move or see whats going on, then the game is probably unplayable whether you have to dodge or not. If that is happening, then you need to lower your graphics settings or upgrade your computer. My 5 year old machine runs LOTRO fine on the higher settings.
Originally posted by dragonace
Originally posted by Scottc
Your computer speed should not affect your ability to move thanks to a beautiful thing called time delta, where the distance you move is based on how much time its been since the last time your position was updated rather than basing your movement speed directly on the framerate. This has been standard programming practice in game development since the quake series. If you want to argue that framerate affects your ability to move, then I'll argue that it also affects your ability to cast spells, use special abilities, and initiate combat. You say its not feasible in a program, and yet the oldest games have it. Please read the original posts.
What other RPGMMO game had it? I was aware of only AC.
Given the fact that almost every single RPGMMO ever created doesn't have it the way you're describing... do you think there might be the slightest possibility that the developers of all these MMOs both present and past had a reason to not implement it? If it was as easy and such a no-brainer... chances are it would have been done quite a few times before. Chances are it would be the norm if there wasn't a lot of technical issues with implementing it. I'm not a developer or a programmer for a large MMO, so I don't know the technical aspects of what it would take to make it work. However, since it isn't being done by the vast majority of MMOs... it probably isn't just a "toggle-switch" feature.
To be truthful, I think its just laziness on the developers part. They know they can get by without it, because most MMORPG gamers haven't seen it in a game before, and thus don't know how much it can add to the game. Also, they may consider it a risky feature to implement as its not in any modern MMORPGs as most modern MMORPGs are clones of the most popular MMORPGs of the past.
Originally posted by Krogg
Originally posted by Scottc
Originally posted by Krogg
Originally posted by Hrothmund
Originally posted by Vrika Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion. Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
Mine doesn't lag at all. But I did spend $3k on it. Not everyone can afford a decent comp. TBH, if they did implement this change you seek, I'd quit the game. edit: and when I say 'even' I mean in everything. PvMP or PvE. I'd be a better tank than jimmy if jimmy couldn't time his movements right because he has a slower proc or less ram. Right now jimmy and I tank based on skills with the attacks and blocks, which we can both use to equal effectiveness.
I'm not going to argue against the whole "shitty computer" idea. Anyone with common sense knows that its a stupid argument. You can get a single core 3 GHz CPU for 67 USD, a GeForce 7800 GT for for 135 USD, mobos are cheap, you can get one for around 50 dollars or so for the older hardware listed above, a gig of ram for 22 dollars, or maybe 2 for 44, and a 450 watt power supply for as low as 40 USD. Those are the bare essentials for a computer, barring a hard drive, which can be cheap, a case which may include a power supply, and monitor, keyboard, and mouse, which the user should already have. Yeah, thats right, you can build a computer thats more powerful as mine for less than 500 USD. The prices I listed above come out to 314 USD, taken from newegg. If you really want, i'll post a list of the exact parts. Jimmy probably can't tank as effectively as you if his FPS really is so bad that he wouldn't be able to dodge if he could move out of the way anyway, as he wouldn't be able to use his skills the second his timer is up since he's so laggy.
Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
Mine doesn't lag at all. But I did spend $3k on it. Not everyone can afford a decent comp.
TBH, if they did implement this change you seek, I'd quit the game.
edit: and when I say 'even' I mean in everything. PvMP or PvE. I'd be a better tank than jimmy if jimmy couldn't time his movements right because he has a slower proc or less ram. Right now jimmy and I tank based on skills with the attacks and blocks, which we can both use to equal effectiveness.
But that's not true, you even agreed with someone about this before.
If the other person's computer lags, either fps based or latency, then he will not be as good as you!!!
I also want active defensive type play. Right now we only have one side of the formula, you control offense. TCOS and AOC are the only games coming out in the near that have the type gameplay you are talking about. DDO has this somewhat implemented, but only know this second hand.
In what way are we talking? Dodging works fine in DDO.
I see something being thrown at me and I move I don't get hit. If i see the enemies animation starting up to attack if i use my tumble skill I don't get hit. That is called dodging. I don't know exactly how this doesn't meet the requirements for "the way we are talking here" as I never saw an agreed upon set of requirements. Does the action of actively evading = not getting hit if timed correctly not good enough?
Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
Or maybe some of us prefer to sit back and relax during a PvE exchange. If I want to dodge or time my attacks, and all that BS, I'll play an FPS or a fighter.
Granted, there have been some s*** mmo's recently.
The problem is, with this system, true player skill becomes somewhat useless in PvP.
I mean, why play something that is so easy, losing is actually harder than winning? Where is the challenge, where is the motivation and where are the thrills?
This most definitely is a matter of opinion, some people like it easy, to be ably to play with one hand, others like to actually be involved in the game while they play. In many games the developers try to accomodate both types of players by making the level of combat involvement class based. I think this is a great idea, but for PvP, extremely hard to balance.
I'm sure you could add a last minute dodge ability for a class, so you could dodge melee and missile attacks efficiently, but what then, that class would be considered overpowered by many.
Now, I know I am going off topic here since PvP isn't exactly Lotr's forte, but many of the things I've type are also present in PvE.
Most of Lotro players probably wouldn't like the idea of real-time dodging.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
Right. Like someone posted before, even ground regarding what, dependaböe regarding what? Explain this and I might be able to give you and answer.
If you are stuck on 56k modem, upgrade. If your computer is not adequate enough, upgrade. Most people are able to move their characters efficiently, and if you don't have any disability that is barring you from doing so, I suggest learning to move properly.
Hey Scott, if you want to dodge attacks and have live blocking abilities check out DDO. Their combat system is pretty dynamic.
I tried the beta out a while ago, it was pretty nice. One thing that really bugged me though was how the whole game seemed to happen in dungeons, and everything was instanced which really ruins the feel of an MMORPG.
Hey Scott, if you want to dodge attacks and have live blocking abilities check out DDO. Their combat system is pretty dynamic.
I tried the beta out a while ago, it was pretty nice. One thing that really bugged me though was how the whole game seemed to happen in dungeons, and everything was instanced which really ruins the feel of an MMORPG.
LOL....would you have prefered that the whole game take place inside of dragons instead?
Game has gotten bigger in the 2 years since beta, including outdoor activities. For LOTRO, I am fine with the game calculating hit/miss for me. I would rather worry about skills that see a bunch of bunny rabbits hopping around a boss.
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
it is not possible right now for the dev to make every key input count to hit and miss, would make a lot of lag. it is fine as it is, even i wish some times that if i am moving a bit away from the monster, that ut dose not get the hit it allready started as i was close to him. If you move away before he initials a attack then you do not get hit, but its hardly not possible.
Originally posted by elvenangel Planetside is an action game though there's a huge difference between an action game and an RPG. The server is processing combat, people using the bank, making transactions, crafting, opening backpacks, swapping gear etc etc etc for thousands of players simulationously. Even with multi threading there's going to be hang ups trying to make real time calculations. Plus if my memory serves me correct there were alot of complaints about lag in Planetside back in the old days. And its obvious you didn't read my post thoroughly or you'd of noticed I nodded at action games, they're not as 'popular' for MMOs as RPG's are. They're not niche its just not as popular a concept, mostly due to lack of developer support mind you. Its just becoming dumb and dumber for people to continously compare an MMORPG with an MMOFPS / Action game Just as dumb as comparing a Skill game to a Level Based game. Though what I think is really funny are all the people that considers 'twitch' skill when its not. Even UO wasn't really 'skill' based it still had to take into account all the 'skill / stat points' you grinded.
There I High lighted some things you should pay attention to stumps incase you missed it. Also greenstumps its really just not going to run in your favor to argue with me on this point considering I'm actually a professional in real time world simulations, I pratically live eat and breath this sort of stuff.
Well you always have Neocron that is an RPG, and this title is rather old now
Tabula Rasa, this game has to end up inbetween action/roleplaying..
and under development Age Of Conan and Fallen Earth Im sure there are others aswell
Huxley ofcourse, maybe that falls in your MMOFPS category , It seem's rather advanced thou..
But, I still agree with you,..It may be that the next generation of games has a remedy for this...But as a solid roleplayer..Do we wan't it ? I'm very biased when it comes to this..
You are NOT the HERO and "your" CHARACTHER can DODGE attacks if he's skill in dodging permit's it, hence he's the HERO..You are a guy that sits in a chair at a computer...
I'd like to add that this whole argue is rather flawed to begin with, as you have to click hotbars for various skills for your characther YOU still have to click click click, othervise YOU will not succeed, the DODGE, BLOCK thing is just an added convinience, or rather it has always been a sort of passive skill in CRPG's mostly MMORPG's....
Often it's simply in the developers choice really, how far away are we stepping from the roleplaying formula..And the roleplaying formula(Pen & Paper style)or the old D&D style, is the formulas adopted to computers a long time ago now, and many would claim without these core rules this is not a roleplaying game..But they are not, they are Computer RPG's, there is the huge diffrence.
Many times it's done by choice really, fun versus realistic..Often a combination between these, like Oblivion etc...
As we go back to RPG and it's core, roleplaying is about stepping into a role as another characther, to see if this characther could actually succeed in doing things he got a skill check..This is it..really..
But..hybryd system has come and many works aswell and keeps YOU more alert if the game has atleast some actions that are based of your choice..realtime actions not hotbar clicks, or turnbased choices that makes your characther teke action as the "time" is frozen..
But all in all..These are GAMES, and as a GAME it has to BE interessting, these are the choices that the deveopers has to face when making it..
And ofcourse as many pointed out, the LAG issue has been a major factor for the dev's aswell, when making these games in the past..but maybe this will change now..
it is not possible right now for the dev to make every key input count to hit and miss, would make a lot of lag. it is fine as it is, even i wish some times that if i am moving a bit away from the monster, that ut dose not get the hit it allready started as i was close to him. If you move away before he initials a attack then you do not get hit, but its hardly not possible.
AC1, DDO (& upcoming AoC) so it is possible, just not popular.....
I'm not going to argue against the whole "shitty computer" idea. Anyone with common sense knows that its a stupid argument. You can get a single core 3 GHz CPU for 67 USD, a GeForce 7800 GT for for 135 USD, mobos are cheap, you can get one for around 50 dollars or so for the older hardware listed above, a gig of ram for 22 dollars, or maybe 2 for 44, and a 450 watt power supply for as low as 40 USD. Those are the bare essentials for a computer, barring a hard drive, which can be cheap, a case which may include a power supply, and monitor, keyboard, and mouse, which the user should already have. Yeah, thats right, you can build a computer thats more powerful as mine for less than 500 USD. The prices I listed above come out to 314 USD, taken from newegg. If you really want, i'll post a list of the exact parts. Jimmy probably can't tank as effectively as you if his FPS really is so bad that he wouldn't be able to dodge if he could move out of the way anyway, as he wouldn't be able to use his skills the second his timer is up since he's so laggy.
If game developers relied on the minuscule group of players who would actually go to newegg and buy computer parts to build a computer, they'd go bankrupt very quickly.
But that's beside the point. You CAN dodge in LoTRO. Just move out of your enemy's melee range. There, you just dodged.
You want "real" dodging? Does that also mean you want to aim all of your attacks and perfectly time and place all of your parries as well? Do you want the game to require you to determine exactly where you place your foot with each step while you are running (or maybe you'll turn your ankle and fall down)? Should we have a system that requires you to target your sword on your belt accurately in order to pull it out? What about drinking potions? Should we have to use a targeting system to dig them out of our pockets before we can drink them? What if we get whacked upside the head while drinking it? Do we spill it? Do we get broken glass in our eyes?
At some point, some things have to be "simulated" or automated. What's so special about dodging that it can't be simulated statistically? I could easily make an argument that allowing you to dodge in real time would actually be LESS realistic than modeling it statistically. Want me to?
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Originally posted by rikilii If game developers relied on the minuscule group of players who would actually go to newegg and buy computer parts to build a computer, they'd go bankrupt very quickly.
Why are you still arguing this? If you can't run the game on the lowest settings, go upgrade your computer.
But that's beside the point. You CAN dodge in LoTRO. Just move out of your enemy's melee range. There, you just dodged. You want "real" dodging? Does that also mean you want to aim all of your attacks and perfectly time and place all of your parries as well?
Yeah, I want real dodging, and I also want to aim all of my attacks. Also, yeah, manual parrying would be pretty cool too. Is it so wrong to ask for more control over my gameplay experience?
Do you want the game to require you to determine exactly where you place your foot with each step while you are running (or maybe you'll turn your ankle and fall down)? Should we have a system that requires you to target your sword on your belt accurately in order to pull it out? What about drinking potions? Should we have to use a targeting system to dig them out of our pockets before we can drink them? What if we get whacked upside the head while drinking it? Do we spill it? Do we get broken glass in our eyes?
We don't have peripherals to accurately do these things, they'd be far too tedious and unreasonable to do with a mouse and a keyboard. Now lets say you have some theoretical matrix style gaming scenario, yeah, I bet that'd be a part of the game.
Before making further posts, please remember this response of mine to a person like yourself from another thread:
Originally posted by Scottc
Originally posted by Zorvan First, I don't like the idea of an mmofps. But that comes down to personal preference. If devs wanna make one and it is actually done well ( hasn't happened yet ), I have no complaints. To each their own.
But the next person in this or any thread who tries to seriously allude to Planetside as an mmorpg shall be smacked with a frozen trout.
No, its not personal preference to demand for the devs to compensate you for your lack of skill by limiting everyones gameplay experience. You are ignorant and selfish.
Comments
LOL... uh, what?
WTF does having a high speed comp enabling you to move faster than those with slower pc's or connections add up to skill????
Yeah, skill-based...
What? You have the skills to earn more money in RL, or the skills to con your parents into buying a high-end machine?
Thanks for the good laugh.
Your computer speed should not affect your ability to move thanks to a beautiful thing called time delta, where the distance you move is based on how much time its been since the last time your position was updated rather than basing your movement speed directly on the framerate. This has been standard programming practice in game development since the quake series. If you want to argue that framerate affects your ability to move, then I'll argue that it also affects your ability to cast spells, use special abilities, and initiate combat. You say its not feasible in a program, and yet the oldest games have it. Please read the original posts.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
Or maybe some of us prefer to sit back and relax during a PvE exchange. If I want to dodge or time my attacks, and all that BS, I'll play an FPS or a fighter.
Granted, there have been some s*** mmo's recently.
You have the coolest name I've seen yet here=)
So why isn't there a run skill stat that the higher it is allows me to move faster thus allowing me to better dodge attacks by moving out of the way? This is a game, why can't I have control over my character? Asheron's Call (Turbines first game which made them rich and a big player in the MMORPG industry) was about stats but they allowed me to move out of the way to dodge attacks.Sorry, I don't think you'll find any MMO developers here. If you seriously want a discussion about this then post it over in LoTRo's official forums. The devs will occasionally drop by and give very detailed reasons on certain aspects of the game. I can't say if they will respond for sure, but if they do it may actually be an explanation that means something... as any of the responses here will just be opinions.
In the end it boils down to: That is the way the game plays. If it's not fun for you because of it... hopefully you can find a game that is fun for you.
That being said... LoTRo does a better job than some previous MMOs as far as the problem you are stating. It doesn't let you shoot through rocks, trees, walls, or closed doorways to hit your target. I'm sure you've seen the infamous "you have lost line of sight" message. Also, if you shoot a mob and then quickly duck out of sight; you will probably take one hit... but the mob can't continually hit you until it re-establishes line-of-sight as well. This means that it will come out and seek to find you; which works very well in certain situations.
So yeah, you have to put up with that first shot that might hit you when you are behind a wall, rock, or tree. However, once you get used to how it works it really is a great tactic to pull mobs to you. As to why even the first shot has to be that way... well, that's for a Turbine dev. to answer.
Edit:
I did a bit of digging and this is what I've learned. I don't have links or quotes yet, as it's mostly hear-say, or second-hand. So, remember it's just a theory; NOT fact.
LoTRo determines whether an action is "legal" or not at the time the action is initiated; NOT at the time the action completes. So, as long as an action is "legal" when it is "cast" it will finish. This goes for ranged shots hitting you or your target even though when the missile arrives it should no longer be legal. Once an action is completed it will hit it's target regardless of the conditions when the missile arrives.
So, if you want to "dodge" missile attacks... you can. You just have to make sure that the missile attack can never be initiated. Quite a bit more challenging than the other way around. See, LoTRo is even more challenging than you thought. Yes, that was said with a bit of tongue-in-cheek.
Thanks for the good laugh.
Your computer speed should not affect your ability to move thanks to a beautiful thing called time delta, where the distance you move is based on how much time its been since the last time your position was updated rather than basing your movement speed directly on the framerate. This has been standard programming practice in game development since the quake series. If you want to argue that framerate affects your ability to move, then I'll argue that it also affects your ability to cast spells, use special abilities, and initiate combat. You say its not feasible in a program, and yet the oldest games have it. Please read the original posts.
Yeah it effects those things as well, but they can be times outside of the client and occur when they are supposed to. I play with someone who lags badly, and yes they often get stuck or stopped when trying to move about quickly.
And why do I need to enlighten you? I don't even care about this thread really, I'm just killing time until my tea is ready then I'm playing some LOTRO, which I love.
Guess how many people I've heard complain ingame about this problem you have... ZERO.
So maybe it isn't us that have it all wrong, we are enjoying our game immensley, even without you gracing our servers.
So maybe YOU should enlighten us as to why this problem you think is important - a problem 200k LOTRO players don't have , and why you think it would improve the game. Actually, nm, my kettle just started whistling.
CYA!
You're in the wrong Turbine game...for that you want DDO.
Lmfao, thanks man. It's not very clever, but it gets the job done.
---
He said to me, "On your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that going for me, which is nice.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
One last wee point to add before I level my Grd.
Even if the game recognizes movement and places the char where they are supposed to be accordingly, anyone who has ever played on a crap system knows that framerate can suck so badly that you often have a hard time even seeing all the live action, attacks, movements, spells, etc. On low-end pc's it's like a stutter-fest and how can anyone be expected to time their movements to avoid attacks when they can't even see everything that's happening?
Given the fact that almost every single RPGMMO ever created doesn't have it the way you're describing... do you think there might be the slightest possibility that the developers of all these MMOs both present and past had a reason to not implement it?
If it was as easy and such a no-brainer... chances are it would have been done quite a few times before. Chances are it would be the norm if there wasn't a lot of technical issues with implementing it. I'm not a developer or a programmer for a large MMO, so I don't know the technical aspects of what it would take to make it work.
However, since it isn't being done by the vast majority of MMOs... it probably isn't just a "toggle-switch" feature.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
Mine doesn't lag at all. But I did spend $3k on it. Not everyone can afford a decent comp.
TBH, if they did implement this change you seek, I'd quit the game.
edit: and when I say 'even' I mean in everything. PvMP or PvE. I'd be a better tank than jimmy if jimmy couldn't time his movements right because he has a slower proc or less ram. Right now jimmy and I tank based on skills with the attacks and blocks, which we can both use to equal effectiveness.
To be truthful, I think its just laziness on the developers part. They know they can get by without it, because most MMORPG gamers haven't seen it in a game before, and thus don't know how much it can add to the game. Also, they may consider it a risky feature to implement as its not in any modern MMORPGs as most modern MMORPGs are clones of the most popular MMORPGs of the past.
I'm not going to argue against the whole "shitty computer" idea. Anyone with common sense knows that its a stupid argument. You can get a single core 3 GHz CPU for 67 USD, a GeForce 7800 GT for for 135 USD, mobos are cheap, you can get one for around 50 dollars or so for the older hardware listed above, a gig of ram for 22 dollars, or maybe 2 for 44, and a 450 watt power supply for as low as 40 USD. Those are the bare essentials for a computer, barring a hard drive, which can be cheap, a case which may include a power supply, and monitor, keyboard, and mouse, which the user should already have. Yeah, thats right, you can build a computer thats more powerful as mine for less than 500 USD. The prices I listed above come out to 314 USD, taken from newegg. If you really want, i'll post a list of the exact parts. Jimmy probably can't tank as effectively as you if his FPS really is so bad that he wouldn't be able to dodge if he could move out of the way anyway, as he wouldn't be able to use his skills the second his timer is up since he's so laggy.Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
I find it funny that the playing field in Asheron's Call was way more even with its open skill system where you had everything from run and jump skill to melee defense and sword skill. When you say even, against what exactly? The PvP like LOTRO is monster play, and thats definitely not even considering most monsters don't have a chance even in a 1 on 1 fight. The freeps gear pretty much guarantees the outcome of the fight will be in their favor. If your computer lags while playing LOTRO, then you need to turn down the settings or upgrade your computer.
Mine doesn't lag at all. But I did spend $3k on it. Not everyone can afford a decent comp.
TBH, if they did implement this change you seek, I'd quit the game.
edit: and when I say 'even' I mean in everything. PvMP or PvE. I'd be a better tank than jimmy if jimmy couldn't time his movements right because he has a slower proc or less ram. Right now jimmy and I tank based on skills with the attacks and blocks, which we can both use to equal effectiveness.
But that's not true, you even agreed with someone about this before.If the other person's computer lags, either fps based or latency, then he will not be as good as you!!!
I also want active defensive type play. Right now we only have one side of the formula, you control offense. TCOS and AOC are the only games coming out in the near that have the type gameplay you are talking about. DDO has this somewhat implemented, but only know this second hand.
Not the way we are talking here.
In what way are we talking? Dodging works fine in DDO.I see something being thrown at me and I move I don't get hit. If i see the enemies animation starting up to attack if i use my tumble skill I don't get hit. That is called dodging. I don't know exactly how this doesn't meet the requirements for "the way we are talking here" as I never saw an agreed upon set of requirements. Does the action of actively evading = not getting hit if timed correctly not good enough?
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
Or maybe some of us prefer to sit back and relax during a PvE exchange. If I want to dodge or time my attacks, and all that BS, I'll play an FPS or a fighter.
Granted, there have been some s*** mmo's recently.
The problem is, with this system, true player skill becomes somewhat useless in PvP.
I mean, why play something that is so easy, losing is actually harder than winning? Where is the challenge, where is the motivation and where are the thrills?
This most definitely is a matter of opinion, some people like it easy, to be ably to play with one hand, others like to actually be involved in the game while they play. In many games the developers try to accomodate both types of players by making the level of combat involvement class based. I think this is a great idea, but for PvP, extremely hard to balance.
I'm sure you could add a last minute dodge ability for a class, so you could dodge melee and missile attacks efficiently, but what then, that class would be considered overpowered by many.
Now, I know I am going off topic here since PvP isn't exactly Lotr's forte, but many of the things I've type are also present in PvE.
Which is kind of sad. People prefer the easy, care-bear style of playing, and I think this is one of the pitfalls that has caused much of the decline in the quality of recent MMO releases.
It's not sad at all, I wouldn't want it because it's not a dependable action. I want to play on as even a playing ground as possible, and allowing movement to escape attacks would not be fair as not all players are capable of smooth, lag-free motion.
Nothing care-bear about it, but nice try.
Right. Like someone posted before, even ground regarding what, dependaböe regarding what? Explain this and I might be able to give you and answer.If you are stuck on 56k modem, upgrade. If your computer is not adequate enough, upgrade. Most people are able to move their characters efficiently, and if you don't have any disability that is barring you from doing so, I suggest learning to move properly.
Hey Scott, if you want to dodge attacks and have live blocking abilities check out DDO. Their combat system is pretty dynamic.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I tried the beta out a while ago, it was pretty nice. One thing that really bugged me though was how the whole game seemed to happen in dungeons, and everything was instanced which really ruins the feel of an MMORPG.
I tried the beta out a while ago, it was pretty nice. One thing that really bugged me though was how the whole game seemed to happen in dungeons, and everything was instanced which really ruins the feel of an MMORPG.
LOL....would you have prefered that the whole game take place inside of dragons instead?
Game has gotten bigger in the 2 years since beta, including outdoor activities. For LOTRO, I am fine with the game calculating hit/miss for me. I would rather worry about skills that see a bunch of bunny rabbits hopping around a boss.
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
it is not possible right now for the dev to make every key input count to hit and miss, would make a lot of lag. it is fine as it is, even i wish some times that if i am moving a bit away from the monster, that ut dose not get the hit it allready started as i was close to him. If you move away before he initials a attack then you do not get hit, but its hardly not possible.
xfire
sgw-fansite
Well you always have Neocron that is an RPG, and this title is rather old now
Tabula Rasa, this game has to end up inbetween action/roleplaying..
and under development Age Of Conan
and Fallen Earth
Im sure there are others aswell
Huxley ofcourse, maybe that falls in your MMOFPS category , It seem's rather advanced thou..
But, I still agree with you,..It may be that the next generation of games has a remedy for this...But as a solid roleplayer..Do we wan't it ? I'm very biased when it comes to this..
You are NOT the HERO and "your" CHARACTHER can DODGE attacks if he's skill in dodging permit's it, hence he's the HERO..You are a guy that sits in a chair at a computer...
I'd like to add that this whole argue is rather flawed to begin with, as you have to click hotbars for various skills for your characther YOU still have to click click click, othervise YOU will not succeed, the DODGE, BLOCK thing is just an added convinience, or rather it has always been a sort of passive skill in CRPG's mostly MMORPG's....
Often it's simply in the developers choice really, how far away are we stepping from the roleplaying formula..And the roleplaying formula(Pen & Paper style)or the old D&D style, is the formulas adopted to computers a long time ago now, and many would claim without these core rules this is not a roleplaying game..But they are not, they are Computer RPG's, there is the huge diffrence.
Many times it's done by choice really, fun versus realistic..Often a combination between these, like Oblivion etc...
As we go back to RPG and it's core, roleplaying is about stepping into a role as another characther, to see if this characther could actually succeed in doing things he got a skill check..This is it..really..
But..hybryd system has come and many works aswell and keeps YOU more alert if the game has atleast some actions that are based of your choice..realtime actions not hotbar clicks, or turnbased choices that makes your characther teke action as the "time" is frozen..
But all in all..These are GAMES, and as a GAME it has to BE interessting, these are the choices that the deveopers has to face when making it..
And ofcourse as many pointed out, the LAG issue has been a major factor for the dev's aswell, when making these games in the past..but maybe this will change now..
Not the way we are talking here.
Actually, yes the way you are talking here.....
AC1, DDO (& upcoming AoC) so it is possible, just not popular.....
If game developers relied on the minuscule group of players who would actually go to newegg and buy computer parts to build a computer, they'd go bankrupt very quickly.
But that's beside the point. You CAN dodge in LoTRO. Just move out of your enemy's melee range. There, you just dodged.
You want "real" dodging? Does that also mean you want to aim all of your attacks and perfectly time and place all of your parries as well? Do you want the game to require you to determine exactly where you place your foot with each step while you are running (or maybe you'll turn your ankle and fall down)? Should we have a system that requires you to target your sword on your belt accurately in order to pull it out? What about drinking potions? Should we have to use a targeting system to dig them out of our pockets before we can drink them? What if we get whacked upside the head while drinking it? Do we spill it? Do we get broken glass in our eyes?
At some point, some things have to be "simulated" or automated. What's so special about dodging that it can't be simulated statistically? I could easily make an argument that allowing you to dodge in real time would actually be LESS realistic than modeling it statistically. Want me to?
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Before making further posts, please remember this response of mine to a person like yourself from another thread: