Hurm, I donno if I buy all this, Dracis, but in the event you're serious here's some ideas for you.
1) If I had to pick three games (SWG withstanding) to emulate, they'd be Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online. UO had a great skill system, although it had significant flaws (macroing). Asheron's Call expanded that skill system quite a bit, and did a marvelous job except for conditions that caused templating, such as specializations, overpowered magic and underpowered skills. AC1 also had interesting "puzzle" features built into the game such as the taper system for learning magic. DAoC is a marvelous game that's easy to grasp and puts large emphasis on the player vs player element. It's downfalls are perhaps that balance is a little too much on the rock-paper-scissor scale, and that there is too much emphasis on stun/mesmerize based play.
On top of all that, all three games were and still are very accessible, with the possible exception of UO. AC1 and DAoC have pretty helpful tutorials that guide players through the basics. If you want to get people into your game, you need the kind of tutorials that these games offer(ed, as some did change over the years -- and only got better!).
2) Three games to avoid emulating are World of Warcraft, EverQuest, and Vanguard. World of Warcraft is a great game with a fantastic engine supporting it, but it's so well done that emulating it is just not a good idea. However, World of Warcraft is a good showcase of how a great user interface can make a complex game very simple and therefore extremely accessible. Folks might give WoW crap about how dumbed down it is, but from an ex-Rogue point of view, the game's complexities are just very subtle. EverQuest is really just the old model for World of Warcraft, but with more emphasis placed on group activity on a massive scale. Again, it's more of the same equation should you go that route, and Blizzard originally followed suit but later turned away from it. Vanguard, lastly, was an attempt at too much for too little. Some folks who the game was targeted for (older EQ players) were turned off by it's overt complexity.
3) PvP's gotta be optional, or it ain't selling in North America. When folks from around here want a mindless frag fest, they hop on to Counterstrike or Halo. The highlighted words there pinpoint the problem with PvP: it's usually pointless no matter what state it is, FFA or consentual. If you're making a world, make it epic by forcing the PvP to go somewhere. This is what the guys at Funcom (AoC) and Mythic (WAR) figured out recently. Mind you, Mythic also claims to have invented the RvR concept, thus proclaiming themselves PvP gurus, and even this idea slipped by them. If that wasn't reason enough, think about this: Blizzard is also picking up on the concept and their next expansion is going to have it as a core feature. Hmm.
SOE did a decent job with it by leaving it up to the players. We made the bases, we determined their value, and after a suitable amount of two-way smack talk on the forums, there would be war. And war there was, crashing servers here and there. Great times.
3) You don't really need to emulate SWG's skill trees word for word. Base professions are fine and all, and utilized (with much less effect) in other games. What matters more is the specializations, and this is where I tend to think SWG "succeeded until it failed" by having hybrid characters be more powerful than fully specialized characters. The term "stackers" was very adept, since folks were looking to pile on as many attributes as possible. That was fine -- but because the developers hadn't forseen the amount of stacking people were going to do, they had created a venue for people to become "walking gods." Reason being that weapon skills couldn't keep up with defense skills. Thus, stacking was nerfed pretty hard and then later "removed" in the CU via arbitrary levels.
To provide some contrast here: In AC1, stacking was also the name of the game. However this was done through templating (building characters a certain way from scratch to maximize a skill) and buffing (modifying each skill and attribute with timed magics). The buffing aspects were a little too overdone and, in my opinion at least, did the whole system of balance in. Individual skills were not nerfed, but the buffs were counteracted by the introduction of weaponry that could bypass magic, or creatures that (eventually) became so tough that they required a player to have a full suite of buffs to counteract them.
At any rate, these are two examples of skill systems that *almost* had it, and the main lesson to learn here is to plan way, way ahead. I think both systems were fine until they started to show the strategic flaws of the game they were created for, rather than vice versa.
4) Jedi in the old system worked. And worked well. The permadeath kept them in check, and it was a worthy goal to persue. The problem is that too many people wanted to become Jedi with minimal effort (it's as easy as clicking on Jedi and clicking "create" now). SOE gave in to the demands of their customers (read: whiny pressure), which would be admirable under normal circumstances except this time it wound up wrecking the game and their development cycle tenfold. Whoops.
5) Cities were a dime a dozen in SWG when they shouldn't have been. It was and still is far too easy to start building a city. This isn't a problem when a game is healthy, but when Mayor Joe decides to take off from the game, he's holding up a city slot on a given planet. They were still among the most popular inclusons in SWG ever, though.
6) Let players create their own factions, but you might consider keeping one or three "base" factions. One of which should be non-PvP combat. Also, don't be afraid to treat non-PvP players like dirt -- restrict access to PvP zones and the like, or you'll wind up with cheaters creating non-PvP alts to spy on their enemies.
7) Just throwing a shout out there to whomever thought up the "newbie guild" concept. Perhaps it is one of the least used startups in any game for how wonderful it is! These are guilds you get signed into when you start a character. I think every MMO should have these to help players start out.
8) Last time I checked, guns do more damage than fists, but both are still able to floor a man in one shot or more. Guns are just arguably more versatile -- at a distance.
9) Don't worry too much about AI. Worry more about the databases! You can have the sorriest AI ever made initially and then upgrade it later, but the best-AI-ever-made won't matter worth beans if you can't transmit data to several dozen (or hundred!) clients in real time.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
While we all know the old SW:G is never coming back, I was wondering if there was ever a new MMO to come out that had the similar feeling of pre-CU SW:G ( Skill based, sandbox, large number of professions, complex crafting, etc.) what other features would you like to see? You may want to call this a bit of market research for my small development company. While we are no where near ready to make a game on the scope of an MMO yet, it is something we are looking forward to do some time in the future. Please be as specific as you can about what features you'd like to see. Thanks in advance for any help you folks would be willing to provide.
Edit* Obviously, once again, I'm up way to late to be typing.
I want a Dune sandbox. In the first stages of the game, you can join an NPC House or Guild - Harkonnen, Atreides, Bene Gesserit - but later, if your guild becomes large enough, you can start and run your own House with your own customisable planet.
I was interested in Fallen Earth, and to a small degree still am, but right now Earthrise has top billing on my Watch List. If they can pull off what they're saying, it looks to take the best of Pre-CU SWG, the best of EVE, and cranking it all up a notch.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Instancing is never a solution, something else could have been done.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Instancing is never a solution, something else could have been done.
They could have increased the spawn rates, and put a "lockout" on the mob for individuals/groups who got loot rights so that the next group/toon could have their turn.
Or done something like the DWB, where killing the overlord/completing a crafting run EJECTS you from the dungeon.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
I am only about half way through this vet trial, and I'll wait until I finish it to do a full review, but one of the things now, in the NGE/post-NGE era is that the system for buffs and getting buffs is very much WORSE than it ever was before. There is no comparison, because at least before, you could GET all the buffs you needed, and everyone was more or less on a level playing field: one set of around 3k buffs from one doc (and an entertainer buff at different points) and you were good. And that is what EVERYONE had access to, and it was a level playing field.
What you have now, is something different. Buffs are ABSOLUTELY essential when going to PvP, and no you can't just get a couple and it's close enough. Under the current system, If you get a couple buffs and finish out with 17k or so health, and go up against mega buff monkey with 25-30k health (and I saw people with this much) chances are you are going to lose all most all of the time. This is an unbalanced, shortsighted and stupid design for the devs. Because now, not only do you HAVE to be level 90 to PvP, you also have to have done a whole ton of grinding for power bits for high end stated clothing, instance running for those buffs, as well as doing several of the collections to compete on anything close to an even level with the L33t kiddies. This is the way it is now, make no mistake.
In the Pre-CU days, it was very much different. Whatever skills you had, whatever weapon you had, you could see the doc, get your buffs, and be PvP (and PvE) viable from day 1. I think I PvP'd on my first day in SWG, and you could. This "new" NGE SWG is not that way, not when you HAVE TO grind to 90, grind for gear drops, grind for the 100-200 million credits needed to outfit yourself decently, run a bunch of quests, run a bunch of instances, if you can find the groups, to be viable, and THEN you can go PvP with some chance of success. Note that skill does not come into it, when the other guy has a 50% or more health advantage.
Yes, it IS like that now. I have seen it and talked extensively with the few remaining people I know that have stuck with SWG all this time. The accessibility that Pre-CU SWG had is now completely gone.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Instancing is never a solution, something else could have been done.
They could have increased the spawn rates, and put a "lockout" on the mob for individuals/groups who got loot rights so that the next group/toon could have their turn.
Or done something like the DWB, where killing the overlord/completing a crafting run EJECTS you from the dungeon.
Instancing is the lazy way out.
I see nothing wrong with it (IMO) Some games use it right and some wrong. For example I liked how the pirate dungeon was done in WoW near the human starting area. Some games use it way too much like Guild Wars.
What do you mean by lockout? Like in WoW: Who hits first gets to loot it even if someone else kills it? Thats still campfest IMO
Well to be honest I did find something similar in The Saga of Ryzom! It was a skill based sandbox game where you could make your own skills! But for future games I'd have to say that Earthrise and W.E.L.L. online are gonna be close to what we want and Darkfall if it ever comes out!
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
I am only about half way through this vet trial, and I'll wait until I finish it to do a full review, but one of the things now, in the NGE/post-NGE era is that the system for buffs and getting buffs is very much WORSE than it ever was before. There is no comparison, because at least before, you could GET all the buffs you needed, and everyone was more or less on a level playing field: one set of around 3k buffs from one doc (and an entertainer buff at different points) and you were good. And that is what EVERYONE had access to, and it was a level playing field.
What you have now, is something different. Buffs are ABSOLUTELY essential when going to PvP, and no you can't just get a couple and it's close enough. Under the current system, If you get a couple buffs and finish out with 17k or so health, and go up against mega buff monkey with 25-30k health (and I saw people with this much) chances are you are going to lose all most all of the time. This is an unbalanced, shortsighted and stupid design for the devs. Because now, not only do you HAVE to be level 90 to PvP, you also have to have done a whole ton of grinding for power bits for high end stated clothing, instance running for those buffs, as well as doing several of the collections to compete on anything close to an even level with the L33t kiddies. This is the way it is now, make no mistake.
In the Pre-CU days, it was very much different. Whatever skills you had, whatever weapon you had, you could see the doc, get your buffs, and be PvP (and PvE) viable from day 1. I think I PvP'd on my first day in SWG, and you could. This "new" NGE SWG is not that way, not when you HAVE TO grind to 90, grind for gear drops, grind for the 100-200 million credits needed to outfit yourself decently, run a bunch of quests, run a bunch of instances, if you can find the groups, to remain viable in PvP.
Yes, it IS like that now. I have seen it and talked extensively with the few remaining people I know that have stuck with SWG all this time. The accessibility that Pre-CU SWG had is now completely gone.
I'm no NGE defender or fanboy. I just disliked getting the doc buffs every time I wanted to do combat and I know the buff-wars are gotten even worse since NGE, thats only one of the many reasons I'm not even playing it anymore.. except free trial every 6 months or so.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Just a few questions on this post.
I can understand the instances and instancing, but what about a thing like The Ryzom Rign did for the Saga or Ryzom. If I remember correctly you could set up an instance for say testing new guild members, or roleplaying events and the like. Would that be ok?
Just to let you know, I don't believe in instancing either. The current game engine our company uses allows for huge terrains, kind like Dark and Light did.
Why no quests? I'm not talking about those stupid fedex quests or the go kill 10 rats and bring me their tails kind of quests. I'm talking about engaging quests with a good sotryline, something along the lines of some of the ElderScrolls:Oblivion quests (If you haven't played the game, some of the quests are very, very good).
NPC loot, could it be something appropriate for the NPC? Say from a human NPC( just as an example) you loot a rifle, but then you can take that rifle to a crafter and make it better? Is there anything else that would work?
By grinding, do you mean like pre-CU grinding, NGE grinding, or something else?
Resource grinding, do you mean for crafters?
I just want clarification is all.
Edit* I am taking notes from all of this, just so you folks know.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Just a few questions on this post.
I can understand the instances and instancing, but what about a thing like The Ryzom Rign did for the Saga or Ryzom. If I remember correctly you could set up an instance for say testing new guild members, or roleplaying events and the like. Would that be ok?
Just to let you know, I don't believe in instancing either. The current game engine our company uses allows for huge terrains, kind like Dark and Light did.
Why no quests? I'm not talking about those stupid fedex quests or the go kill 10 rats and bring me their tails kind of quests. I'm talking about engaging quests with a good sotryline, something along the lines of some of the ElderScrolls:Oblivion quests (If you haven't played the game, some of the quests are very, very good).
NPC loot, could it be something appropriate for the NPC? Say from a human NPC( just as an example) you loot a rifle, but then you can take that rifle to a crafter and make it better? Is there anything else that would work?
By grinding, do you mean like pre-CU grinding, NGE grinding, or something else?
Resource grinding, do you mean for crafters?
I just want clarification is all.
Edit* I am taking notes from all of this, just so you folks know.
All depends on how quests are implemented. I'm also in the process of writing a GDD.
So you have quests, quest lines, and story arcs. Will it be the same for each person? Will it be the same if someone repeats it over (if possible). Kinda kills immersion and realism if you can read the script of the quest/quest line from a walk thru on a fan site.
Developing content
This is the single biggest challenge and drain on resources for every MMORPG. Why? What's so hard about it? Well, it’s a simple fundamental difference between MMORPGs and SPGs (Single Player Games).
SPGs are “story driven”. Just about all of them have a definite beginning, middle, and end. Usually there is some kind of plot or conflict which moves the story, and ultimately your character, forward. If you miss a few things along the way you can simply go back and play it over again.
Not the case with a MMORPG (as we know them now anyway). MMORPGs are “character driven”, where the characters themselves move the story forward in lieu of a plot. Essentially meaning, the players themselves make the story.
Which brings us to the problem: How do you develop a story arc for 100,000+ players (or, for better understanding, call the players "characters in the story"), and/or how do you develop unique story arcs for each of them? It would either totally tax the development team or the server hardware and resources or both.
Still scratching my head on this one...
You can do "Intelligent Questing" where the quest giver takes your faction/race/class/whatever into account and gives you the appropriate quest for who you are and what you're doing. You can even make multiple options or branches for the quest line so the outcome changes based on the decisions you make. And you can multiply this by whatever factor if you want to create multiple quests/quest lines for each coordinate on the matrix so you have a chance of not giving the same quest to the same person twice. But then how many quests do you have to script for each NPC? You can even do a total game quest overhaul every 3-6 months to keep things fresh and interesting. Or you can do away with questing all together and make a real "sandbox". But then you have the problem of how to introduce currency into the economy... No easy answers really.
No #1) Instances No #2) Instancing No #3) Quests No #4) NPC Loot No#5) Grinding No #6) Resource Grinding SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Just a few questions on this post.
I can understand the instances and instancing, but what about a thing like The Ryzom Rign did for the Saga or Ryzom. If I remember correctly you could set up an instance for say testing new guild members, or roleplaying events and the like. Would that be ok?
Just to let you know, I don't believe in instancing either. The current game engine our company uses allows for huge terrains, kind like Dark and Light did.
Why no quests? I'm not talking about those stupid fedex quests or the go kill 10 rats and bring me their tails kind of quests. I'm talking about engaging quests with a good sotryline, something along the lines of some of the ElderScrolls:Oblivion quests (If you haven't played the game, some of the quests are very, very good).
NPC loot, could it be something appropriate for the NPC? Say from a human NPC( just as an example) you loot a rifle, but then you can take that rifle to a crafter and make it better? Is there anything else that would work?
By grinding, do you mean like pre-CU grinding, NGE grinding, or something else?
Resource grinding, do you mean for crafters?
I just want clarification is all.
Edit* I am taking notes from all of this, just so you folks know.
All depends on how quests are implemented. I'm also in the process of writing a GDD.
So you have quests, quest lines, and story arcs. Will it be the same for each person? Will it be the same if someone repeats it over (if possible). Kinda kills immersion and realism if you can read the script of the quest/quest line from a walk thru on a fan site.
Developing content
This is the single biggest challenge and drain on resources for every MMORPG. Why? What's so hard about it? Well, it’s a simple fundamental difference between MMORPGs and SPGs (Single Player Games).
SPGs are “story driven”. Just about all of them have a definite beginning, middle, and end. Usually there is some kind of plot or conflict which moves the story, and ultimately your character, forward. If you miss a few things along the way you can simply go back and play it over again.
Not the case with a MMORPG (as we know them now anyway). MMORPGs are “character driven”, where the characters themselves move the story forward in lieu of a plot. Essentially meaning, the players themselves make the story.
Which brings us to the problem: How do you develop a story arc for 100,000+ players (or, for better understanding, call the players "characters in the story"), and/or how do you develop unique story arcs for each of them? It would either totally tax the development team or the server hardware and resources or both.
Still scratching my head on this one...
You can do "Intelligent Questing" where the quest giver takes your faction/race/class/whatever into account and gives you the appropriate quest for who you are and what you're doing. You can even make multiple options or branches for the quest line so the outcome changes based on the decisions you make. And you can multiply this by whatever factor if you want to create multiple quests/quest lines for each coordinate on the matrix so you have a chance of not giving the same quest to the same person twice. But then how many quests do you have to script for each NPC? You can even do a total game quest overhaul every 3-6 months to keep things fresh and interesting. Or you can do away with questing all together and make a real "sandbox". But then you have the problem of how to introduce currency into the economy... No easy answers really.
Sonno, you seriously need to get out of my head.
I've been having problems writing a decent AI for some time now. Up until now, I've been trying to wirte AI in the scripting language our game engine uses. I've just gotten a book on programming AI in C++. While I know C++ fairly well, it's a whole new thing for me to write a completely new AI from scratch. Not more than a month ago, I began to think about this very problem and how to combat it. See all AI kind of does the same thing. It can adapt to a certain extent, but mostly it is limited to what the programmer tells it to do. I began to think if we ever got to the point of making an MMO, (making an MMO is always in the back of my mind) that we would need something like you are describing. Now I won't go into specifics, but I think I have away of doing exactly what you're describing.
Now this is just a theory and I know this is not something I will be able to do in a month, or probably a year, but it is something I will continue to work on.
As to answering your direct questions, if I can adapt things the way I think I can, no quest would ever be the same, unless the person had every single detail the same as another person. There by story arcs and quest lines would need a wide variety of outcomes, but it would be very hard to get the same result for every person.
As far as an a "in game economy", I've been thinking about that one alot as well. I hate gold farmers/RMT/micro transactions, so trying to come up with a way to make all that as hard as possible has been something my business partner and I have looked into as well and you're right, there are no easy solutions.
When I began this journey, I realized there wouldn't be any "easy button", but I'm in this for the long haul. My only real problem with all of this is I'm disabled and on a tremendous amount of pain killers. Sometimes having the ability to focus for long periods of time or at all, causes problems. Sometimes I can fight through it, sometimes I can't.
What games Vets go to really depend on what they liked most about SWG. for example, those who like dthe sandbox approach trended towards EvE or Ryzom. Those who liked PvP moved back to daoc or await WAR/AoC
I'm going to guess we're going to see nothing but WoW cookie cutters for the foreseeable future. Until at least some of these studio's get a grip and clue. Too bad there's no real room for the Indie market, if you don't have 10's of millions to throw at a project you're pretty much wasting your time. Sad really.
My first MMO that I played was actually Anarchy-Online. This game kept me occupied for 4 years and had one of the best character skill systems I've seen. Simply because it allowed you to work into what ever gear, weapon you wanted. If you wanted to do it, and could find a way to do it, you could equip that nice sword or piece of armor to be different. One of my best friends, back in the very early days of Anarchy-Online was one of the first to put a Queen Blade on his Doctor. All that aside, I just feel that this sort of skill stat system was fantastic, and would love to see it again.
The other would be crafting. Now, many know how badly Vanguard started out. However, I believe they (right next to pre-cu SWG) had a wonderful crafting system. It actually felt as if you were doing something and not just putting a few items in a box and telling it to craft (WoW *caugh*). Vanguard was the only game I've played, out of many, that made me feel as if I was accomplishing something when I was crafting. It was quite enjoyable.
Leveling in an MMO. Well this one is always hard for any game to pull off, making each player happy. I would really like to see something that allowed not only group leveling and encouraged group leveling, but also did not remove solo-leveling either. Yes, we're playing an MMO and we should probably utilize the community for our leveling. But there are times where folks don't want to team and want to solo for what ever reason. I'm sorry, but I really don't have a good example to provide since no game really has done this well at all. The only one I can is maybe, FF11 which offered Puppet Master and Beast Master. I enjoyed leveling my Puppet Master in that game, since it did tend to take a while to get groups.
PvP, a topic that people like to debate. I'm all for PVP, instanced or FFA, either is fine with me. However, if PVP is going to be in a game I would like to see it have some sort of benefit to the players and not just the "Kill person A over and over" for no reward. I've always been a big fan of (not sure how to describe it) PVP Control for towers, or land something along those lines. Like in Anarchy-Online, they added back in the day Tower Battles. People can fight over tower spots, which were separated by level. Once you got the spot, you could build towers, which you could add things to add stats to an entire guild. Also, and individual player could add their own towers for personal stat boosts. Stuff like this I found to be a lot of fun, because it provided some sort of reward for defending and or attacking ones field.
Death penalty. Now, I played FF11 for several years. If no one is familiar, in this game when you die you loose XP. You can loose enough XP to actual de-level. I liked this system personally, although the de-leveling can be a bit harsh with some folks. Death penalty is one thing I really don't have an opinion about. What ever it might be I'm ok with.
Finally... If I were to pick an MMO style I would like it to be SCI-FI... There have not been enough of these and I personally prefer a SCI-FI based MMO over Fantasy.
Just my 2-Cents... have a good one.
Best game ever played (Anarchy-Online - 4yrs of Service) ---------------- Have Played: FFXI, SWG, EQ2, L2, GW, CoH/X, Vanguard, WoW, LOTRO, MxO, AoC ---------------- Currently Playing: WAR (Wurtbad Server) Chaos - Mourtok (Maurader) // Alissua (DoK)
While we all know the old SW:G is never coming back, I was wondering if there was ever a new MMO to come out that had the similar feeling of pre-CU SW:G ( Skill based, sandbox, large number of professions, complex crafting, etc.) what other features would you like to see? You may want to call this a bit of market research for my small development company. While we are no where near ready to make a game on the scope of an MMO yet, it is something we are looking forward to do some time in the future. Please be as specific as you can about what features you'd like to see. Thanks in advance for any help you folks would be willing to provide.
Edit* Obviously, once again, I'm up way to late to be typing.
Hmm i'd like to see a game similiar to pre cu SWG even though that might not happen , but The Agency sounds like a good bet
-- NO PLAYER LEVELS!!! (yes, I yelled thisbut for me this has become the biggie; nothing kills a community like player levels)
-- a good combination of combat and non-combat roles; non-combat roles need to play an important part in the game and should go beyond just crafting and harvesting to others such as entertainers/ doctors/ politicans; players should not be forced to do both but should be able to do a combination if the player chooses
-- the ability to pick and choose what skills to learn and the ability to change those skills by dropping one and earning the ability to gain a different one
-- give me a reason to have multiple accounts; in SWG there was so much to do that 1 toon was not enough to do everything I wanted and there was a viable reason to have 2 toons on at the same time (or switch between toons when my desires/needs changed....tired of combat, dance/play music or craft for a bit; need a little money so I can buy more resources, switch to my combat character and finish off a few missions for some creds); with WoW, there was no need to have two toons on at the same time and I could have multiple toons on the same server on one account if I wanted to try out other professions or do more than one type of crafting)
-- allow me multiple ways to gain xp -- questing, mission terminals, random kills across various locations; one thing I would like to see added to a system like pre-cu had is the ability for players to create quests/missions (want a pair of bright pink hawtpants and can't find them on a vendor search? create a mission for them and when someone completes the mission you get the hawtpink pants and the person who accepted the mission gets the "reward" you placed; "kits" could also exist for mayor of a town to also create "scavenger hunt" type quests)
-- ease of travel without insta-travel; I don't need to just click on some object in my inventory to "poof" to where I'm going but spending all my in-game time traveling from the location of one quest to another is not my idea of fun and having to walk to a location to "unlock" the ability to travel to it is also not my idea of fun (WoW, Ryzom); although I will admit that one of my first noobie experiences in SWG was getting an ent mission from a terminal in Mos E where I spawned/did the noobie droid thing and walking all the way to AH following that arrow and not having a clue what I was doing or where I was going
-- player cities that mean something...in SWG it was possible to have your storyline be "one who never ventured far from home" and live that, one could theoretically go all the way from noob to completed template without wandering far from their player city....other people in city crafted everything you needed, the cantina had Master Dancer/Master Musician to heal and buff you, the medical center had a doctor, the mayor could place the npc trainers or you could gain skills from your fellow townsmen, mission terminals allowed you to get xp within 1k-2k of the player city; try that storyline in WoW...as long as you don't plan on getting far beyond level 10 you might be able to stay in your homeland; one thing extra I would like to see is a combination of draws to player city and server city (give noobs a reason to go check out player cities and give vets a reason to want to hang out in server cities....have certain benefits to each....maybe the resources near a player city are better and cost less energy to harvest or combat xp is better from a player city but doc/ent buffs last longer if done in server city or the payout of missions from server cities are higher....not sure what balance of benefits would work but something to think about)
-- character customization...(not just skills/professions)...this includes the looks one chooses in creating the character but it also includes having a combination of armor and clothing with a choice of colors and styles...everything that allows me to look into a crowd of toons and be able to tell exactly which one is mine
-- (not a necessity but a nice extra that goes along with character customization) a variety of species to choose from, and not all human-like, give me a choice of things with scales or fur too
-- (another non-necessity but nice feature) do languages right; in SWG once you learned the languages, all you ever saw was "basic" (which for me meant English), which made languages fairly useless; what would have been nice to have instead is the language spoken shown in speech bubbles and the "translation" shown in the chat window....in crazy crowds, one would have needed to focus on the chat window to know what people were saying but in less crowded places on could have easily seen the speech bubble first then looked at the chat window
-- encourage grouping without forcing grouping; there should be areas/creatures that require groups but one should not be forced into grouping in order to progress in the game; also one should always be able to kill things that are at one's ability range, be able to kill a little higher with buffs/armor, and be able to kill a lot higher when in a group; and there should always be stuff one can kill successfully and get decent xp (lets say the average xp from a kill is 100 and the only creatures I can find either give me 10 xp or kill me....not a good thing and the game becomes frustrating)
While we all know the old SW:G is never coming back, I was wondering if there was ever a new MMO to come out that had the similar feeling of pre-CU SW:G ( Skill based, sandbox, large number of professions, complex crafting, etc.) what other features would you like to see? You may want to call this a bit of market research for my small development company. While we are no where near ready to make a game on the scope of an MMO yet, it is something we are looking forward to do some time in the future. Please be as specific as you can about what features you'd like to see. Thanks in advance for any help you folks would be willing to provide.
Edit* Obviously, once again, I'm up way to late to be typing.
Hmm i'd like to see a game similiar to pre cu SWG even though that might not happen , but The Agency sounds like a good bet
The Agency can go friggin' bite it. I will not play any game that has an "item mall" run by the same company that puts out the game. And a lot of other people won't either. The fact that it's SOE doing that, in a cynical attempt to get more than the $15/mo for a standard sub, makes me even LESS likely to play.
No thanks.
I am waiting on Fallen Earth, like many others. Good looking game, good company that actually likes its (to be) customers. Who'da thunk it.
Comments
Hmmmmm.......... Tough question..........
Pre-CU
Hurm, I donno if I buy all this, Dracis, but in the event you're serious here's some ideas for you.
1) If I had to pick three games (SWG withstanding) to emulate, they'd be Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online. UO had a great skill system, although it had significant flaws (macroing). Asheron's Call expanded that skill system quite a bit, and did a marvelous job except for conditions that caused templating, such as specializations, overpowered magic and underpowered skills. AC1 also had interesting "puzzle" features built into the game such as the taper system for learning magic. DAoC is a marvelous game that's easy to grasp and puts large emphasis on the player vs player element. It's downfalls are perhaps that balance is a little too much on the rock-paper-scissor scale, and that there is too much emphasis on stun/mesmerize based play.
On top of all that, all three games were and still are very accessible, with the possible exception of UO. AC1 and DAoC have pretty helpful tutorials that guide players through the basics. If you want to get people into your game, you need the kind of tutorials that these games offer(ed, as some did change over the years -- and only got better!).
2) Three games to avoid emulating are World of Warcraft, EverQuest, and Vanguard. World of Warcraft is a great game with a fantastic engine supporting it, but it's so well done that emulating it is just not a good idea. However, World of Warcraft is a good showcase of how a great user interface can make a complex game very simple and therefore extremely accessible. Folks might give WoW crap about how dumbed down it is, but from an ex-Rogue point of view, the game's complexities are just very subtle. EverQuest is really just the old model for World of Warcraft, but with more emphasis placed on group activity on a massive scale. Again, it's more of the same equation should you go that route, and Blizzard originally followed suit but later turned away from it. Vanguard, lastly, was an attempt at too much for too little. Some folks who the game was targeted for (older EQ players) were turned off by it's overt complexity.
3) PvP's gotta be optional, or it ain't selling in North America. When folks from around here want a mindless frag fest, they hop on to Counterstrike or Halo. The highlighted words there pinpoint the problem with PvP: it's usually pointless no matter what state it is, FFA or consentual. If you're making a world, make it epic by forcing the PvP to go somewhere. This is what the guys at Funcom (AoC) and Mythic (WAR) figured out recently. Mind you, Mythic also claims to have invented the RvR concept, thus proclaiming themselves PvP gurus, and even this idea slipped by them. If that wasn't reason enough, think about this: Blizzard is also picking up on the concept and their next expansion is going to have it as a core feature. Hmm.
SOE did a decent job with it by leaving it up to the players. We made the bases, we determined their value, and after a suitable amount of two-way smack talk on the forums, there would be war. And war there was, crashing servers here and there. Great times.
3) You don't really need to emulate SWG's skill trees word for word. Base professions are fine and all, and utilized (with much less effect) in other games. What matters more is the specializations, and this is where I tend to think SWG "succeeded until it failed" by having hybrid characters be more powerful than fully specialized characters. The term "stackers" was very adept, since folks were looking to pile on as many attributes as possible. That was fine -- but because the developers hadn't forseen the amount of stacking people were going to do, they had created a venue for people to become "walking gods." Reason being that weapon skills couldn't keep up with defense skills. Thus, stacking was nerfed pretty hard and then later "removed" in the CU via arbitrary levels.
To provide some contrast here: In AC1, stacking was also the name of the game. However this was done through templating (building characters a certain way from scratch to maximize a skill) and buffing (modifying each skill and attribute with timed magics). The buffing aspects were a little too overdone and, in my opinion at least, did the whole system of balance in. Individual skills were not nerfed, but the buffs were counteracted by the introduction of weaponry that could bypass magic, or creatures that (eventually) became so tough that they required a player to have a full suite of buffs to counteract them.
At any rate, these are two examples of skill systems that *almost* had it, and the main lesson to learn here is to plan way, way ahead. I think both systems were fine until they started to show the strategic flaws of the game they were created for, rather than vice versa.
4) Jedi in the old system worked. And worked well. The permadeath kept them in check, and it was a worthy goal to persue. The problem is that too many people wanted to become Jedi with minimal effort (it's as easy as clicking on Jedi and clicking "create" now). SOE gave in to the demands of their customers (read: whiny pressure), which would be admirable under normal circumstances except this time it wound up wrecking the game and their development cycle tenfold. Whoops.
5) Cities were a dime a dozen in SWG when they shouldn't have been. It was and still is far too easy to start building a city. This isn't a problem when a game is healthy, but when Mayor Joe decides to take off from the game, he's holding up a city slot on a given planet. They were still among the most popular inclusons in SWG ever, though.
6) Let players create their own factions, but you might consider keeping one or three "base" factions. One of which should be non-PvP combat. Also, don't be afraid to treat non-PvP players like dirt -- restrict access to PvP zones and the like, or you'll wind up with cheaters creating non-PvP alts to spy on their enemies.
7) Just throwing a shout out there to whomever thought up the "newbie guild" concept. Perhaps it is one of the least used startups in any game for how wonderful it is! These are guilds you get signed into when you start a character. I think every MMO should have these to help players start out.
8) Last time I checked, guns do more damage than fists, but both are still able to floor a man in one shot or more. Guns are just arguably more versatile -- at a distance.
9) Don't worry too much about AI. Worry more about the databases! You can have the sorriest AI ever made initially and then upgrade it later, but the best-AI-ever-made won't matter worth beans if you can't transmit data to several dozen (or hundred!) clients in real time.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
I want a Dune sandbox. In the first stages of the game, you can join an NPC House or Guild - Harkonnen, Atreides, Bene Gesserit - but later, if your guild becomes large enough, you can start and run your own House with your own customisable planet.
arguing with a corporate fanboi is like teaching special education.
even if you teach him something...at the end of the day he's still retarded.
I was interested in Fallen Earth, and to a small degree still am, but right now Earthrise has top billing on my Watch List. If they can pull off what they're saying, it looks to take the best of Pre-CU SWG, the best of EVE, and cranking it all up a notch.
My No List:
No #1) Instances
No #2) Instancing
No #3) Quests
No #4) NPC Loot
No#5) Grinding
No #6) Resource Grinding
SWG had it right, it just needed some tweaking and fixing.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Instancing is never a solution, something else could have been done.
My ideal MMO would have the Pre-CU ground game and the EVE space game.
A game like that would have had the wonderful ground profession system, AND had epic fleet battles in space.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Instancing is never a solution, something else could have been done.
They could have increased the spawn rates, and put a "lockout" on the mob for individuals/groups who got loot rights so that the next group/toon could have their turn.
Or done something like the DWB, where killing the overlord/completing a crafting run EJECTS you from the dungeon.
Instancing is the lazy way out.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
I am only about half way through this vet trial, and I'll wait until I finish it to do a full review, but one of the things now, in the NGE/post-NGE era is that the system for buffs and getting buffs is very much WORSE than it ever was before. There is no comparison, because at least before, you could GET all the buffs you needed, and everyone was more or less on a level playing field: one set of around 3k buffs from one doc (and an entertainer buff at different points) and you were good. And that is what EVERYONE had access to, and it was a level playing field.
What you have now, is something different. Buffs are ABSOLUTELY essential when going to PvP, and no you can't just get a couple and it's close enough. Under the current system, If you get a couple buffs and finish out with 17k or so health, and go up against mega buff monkey with 25-30k health (and I saw people with this much) chances are you are going to lose all most all of the time. This is an unbalanced, shortsighted and stupid design for the devs. Because now, not only do you HAVE to be level 90 to PvP, you also have to have done a whole ton of grinding for power bits for high end stated clothing, instance running for those buffs, as well as doing several of the collections to compete on anything close to an even level with the L33t kiddies. This is the way it is now, make no mistake.
In the Pre-CU days, it was very much different. Whatever skills you had, whatever weapon you had, you could see the doc, get your buffs, and be PvP (and PvE) viable from day 1. I think I PvP'd on my first day in SWG, and you could. This "new" NGE SWG is not that way, not when you HAVE TO grind to 90, grind for gear drops, grind for the 100-200 million credits needed to outfit yourself decently, run a bunch of quests, run a bunch of instances, if you can find the groups, to be viable, and THEN you can go PvP with some chance of success. Note that skill does not come into it, when the other guy has a 50% or more health advantage.
Yes, it IS like that now. I have seen it and talked extensively with the few remaining people I know that have stuck with SWG all this time. The accessibility that Pre-CU SWG had is now completely gone.
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
Instancing is never a solution, something else could have been done.
They could have increased the spawn rates, and put a "lockout" on the mob for individuals/groups who got loot rights so that the next group/toon could have their turn.
Or done something like the DWB, where killing the overlord/completing a crafting run EJECTS you from the dungeon.
Instancing is the lazy way out.
I see nothing wrong with it (IMO) Some games use it right and some wrong. For example I liked how the pirate dungeon was done in WoW near the human starting area. Some games use it way too much like Guild Wars.
What do you mean by lockout? Like in WoW: Who hits first gets to loot it even if someone else kills it? Thats still campfest IMO
Well to be honest I did find something similar in The Saga of Ryzom! It was a skill based sandbox game where you could make your own skills! But for future games I'd have to say that Earthrise and W.E.L.L. online are gonna be close to what we want and Darkfall if it ever comes out!
Some things need to be instanced. SWG had Geo Cave or something where the acklay(or whatever?) was and it was just stupid when everyone and their mother was camping it. Same with places like deathwatch bunker etc.
One thing I also disliked was the doc buffs. You always had to have them to do anything really.
I am only about half way through this vet trial, and I'll wait until I finish it to do a full review, but one of the things now, in the NGE/post-NGE era is that the system for buffs and getting buffs is very much WORSE than it ever was before. There is no comparison, because at least before, you could GET all the buffs you needed, and everyone was more or less on a level playing field: one set of around 3k buffs from one doc (and an entertainer buff at different points) and you were good. And that is what EVERYONE had access to, and it was a level playing field.
What you have now, is something different. Buffs are ABSOLUTELY essential when going to PvP, and no you can't just get a couple and it's close enough. Under the current system, If you get a couple buffs and finish out with 17k or so health, and go up against mega buff monkey with 25-30k health (and I saw people with this much) chances are you are going to lose all most all of the time. This is an unbalanced, shortsighted and stupid design for the devs. Because now, not only do you HAVE to be level 90 to PvP, you also have to have done a whole ton of grinding for power bits for high end stated clothing, instance running for those buffs, as well as doing several of the collections to compete on anything close to an even level with the L33t kiddies. This is the way it is now, make no mistake.
In the Pre-CU days, it was very much different. Whatever skills you had, whatever weapon you had, you could see the doc, get your buffs, and be PvP (and PvE) viable from day 1. I think I PvP'd on my first day in SWG, and you could. This "new" NGE SWG is not that way, not when you HAVE TO grind to 90, grind for gear drops, grind for the 100-200 million credits needed to outfit yourself decently, run a bunch of quests, run a bunch of instances, if you can find the groups, to remain viable in PvP.
Yes, it IS like that now. I have seen it and talked extensively with the few remaining people I know that have stuck with SWG all this time. The accessibility that Pre-CU SWG had is now completely gone.
I'm no NGE defender or fanboy. I just disliked getting the doc buffs every time I wanted to do combat and I know the buff-wars are gotten even worse since NGE, thats only one of the many reasons I'm not even playing it anymore.. except free trial every 6 months or so.
Just a few questions on this post.
I can understand the instances and instancing, but what about a thing like The Ryzom Rign did for the Saga or Ryzom. If I remember correctly you could set up an instance for say testing new guild members, or roleplaying events and the like. Would that be ok?
Just to let you know, I don't believe in instancing either. The current game engine our company uses allows for huge terrains, kind like Dark and Light did.
Why no quests? I'm not talking about those stupid fedex quests or the go kill 10 rats and bring me their tails kind of quests. I'm talking about engaging quests with a good sotryline, something along the lines of some of the ElderScrolls:Oblivion quests (If you haven't played the game, some of the quests are very, very good).
NPC loot, could it be something appropriate for the NPC? Say from a human NPC( just as an example) you loot a rifle, but then you can take that rifle to a crafter and make it better? Is there anything else that would work?
By grinding, do you mean like pre-CU grinding, NGE grinding, or something else?
Resource grinding, do you mean for crafters?
I just want clarification is all.
Edit* I am taking notes from all of this, just so you folks know.
Just a few questions on this post.
I can understand the instances and instancing, but what about a thing like The Ryzom Rign did for the Saga or Ryzom. If I remember correctly you could set up an instance for say testing new guild members, or roleplaying events and the like. Would that be ok?
Just to let you know, I don't believe in instancing either. The current game engine our company uses allows for huge terrains, kind like Dark and Light did.
Why no quests? I'm not talking about those stupid fedex quests or the go kill 10 rats and bring me their tails kind of quests. I'm talking about engaging quests with a good sotryline, something along the lines of some of the ElderScrolls:Oblivion quests (If you haven't played the game, some of the quests are very, very good).
NPC loot, could it be something appropriate for the NPC? Say from a human NPC( just as an example) you loot a rifle, but then you can take that rifle to a crafter and make it better? Is there anything else that would work?
By grinding, do you mean like pre-CU grinding, NGE grinding, or something else?
Resource grinding, do you mean for crafters?
I just want clarification is all.
Edit* I am taking notes from all of this, just so you folks know.
All depends on how quests are implemented. I'm also in the process of writing a GDD.
So you have quests, quest lines, and story arcs. Will it be the same for each person? Will it be the same if someone repeats it over (if possible). Kinda kills immersion and realism if you can read the script of the quest/quest line from a walk thru on a fan site.
Developing content
This is the single biggest challenge and drain on resources for every MMORPG. Why? What's so hard about it? Well, it’s a simple fundamental difference between MMORPGs and SPGs (Single Player Games).
SPGs are “story driven”. Just about all of them have a definite beginning, middle, and end. Usually there is some kind of plot or conflict which moves the story, and ultimately your character, forward. If you miss a few things along the way you can simply go back and play it over again.
Not the case with a MMORPG (as we know them now anyway). MMORPGs are “character driven”, where the characters themselves move the story forward in lieu of a plot. Essentially meaning, the players themselves make the story.
Which brings us to the problem: How do you develop a story arc for 100,000+ players (or, for better understanding, call the players "characters in the story"), and/or how do you develop unique story arcs for each of them? It would either totally tax the development team or the server hardware and resources or both.
Still scratching my head on this one...
You can do "Intelligent Questing" where the quest giver takes your faction/race/class/whatever into account and gives you the appropriate quest for who you are and what you're doing. You can even make multiple options or branches for the quest line so the outcome changes based on the decisions you make. And you can multiply this by whatever factor if you want to create multiple quests/quest lines for each coordinate on the matrix so you have a chance of not giving the same quest to the same person twice. But then how many quests do you have to script for each NPC? You can even do a total game quest overhaul every 3-6 months to keep things fresh and interesting. Or you can do away with questing all together and make a real "sandbox". But then you have the problem of how to introduce currency into the economy... No easy answers really.
SWG? Pull the plug already!
Just a few questions on this post.
I can understand the instances and instancing, but what about a thing like The Ryzom Rign did for the Saga or Ryzom. If I remember correctly you could set up an instance for say testing new guild members, or roleplaying events and the like. Would that be ok?
Just to let you know, I don't believe in instancing either. The current game engine our company uses allows for huge terrains, kind like Dark and Light did.
Why no quests? I'm not talking about those stupid fedex quests or the go kill 10 rats and bring me their tails kind of quests. I'm talking about engaging quests with a good sotryline, something along the lines of some of the ElderScrolls:Oblivion quests (If you haven't played the game, some of the quests are very, very good).
NPC loot, could it be something appropriate for the NPC? Say from a human NPC( just as an example) you loot a rifle, but then you can take that rifle to a crafter and make it better? Is there anything else that would work?
By grinding, do you mean like pre-CU grinding, NGE grinding, or something else?
Resource grinding, do you mean for crafters?
I just want clarification is all.
Edit* I am taking notes from all of this, just so you folks know.
All depends on how quests are implemented. I'm also in the process of writing a GDD.
So you have quests, quest lines, and story arcs. Will it be the same for each person? Will it be the same if someone repeats it over (if possible). Kinda kills immersion and realism if you can read the script of the quest/quest line from a walk thru on a fan site.
Developing content
This is the single biggest challenge and drain on resources for every MMORPG. Why? What's so hard about it? Well, it’s a simple fundamental difference between MMORPGs and SPGs (Single Player Games).
SPGs are “story driven”. Just about all of them have a definite beginning, middle, and end. Usually there is some kind of plot or conflict which moves the story, and ultimately your character, forward. If you miss a few things along the way you can simply go back and play it over again.
Not the case with a MMORPG (as we know them now anyway). MMORPGs are “character driven”, where the characters themselves move the story forward in lieu of a plot. Essentially meaning, the players themselves make the story.
Which brings us to the problem: How do you develop a story arc for 100,000+ players (or, for better understanding, call the players "characters in the story"), and/or how do you develop unique story arcs for each of them? It would either totally tax the development team or the server hardware and resources or both.
Still scratching my head on this one...
You can do "Intelligent Questing" where the quest giver takes your faction/race/class/whatever into account and gives you the appropriate quest for who you are and what you're doing. You can even make multiple options or branches for the quest line so the outcome changes based on the decisions you make. And you can multiply this by whatever factor if you want to create multiple quests/quest lines for each coordinate on the matrix so you have a chance of not giving the same quest to the same person twice. But then how many quests do you have to script for each NPC? You can even do a total game quest overhaul every 3-6 months to keep things fresh and interesting. Or you can do away with questing all together and make a real "sandbox". But then you have the problem of how to introduce currency into the economy... No easy answers really.
Sonno, you seriously need to get out of my head.
I've been having problems writing a decent AI for some time now. Up until now, I've been trying to wirte AI in the scripting language our game engine uses. I've just gotten a book on programming AI in C++. While I know C++ fairly well, it's a whole new thing for me to write a completely new AI from scratch. Not more than a month ago, I began to think about this very problem and how to combat it. See all AI kind of does the same thing. It can adapt to a certain extent, but mostly it is limited to what the programmer tells it to do. I began to think if we ever got to the point of making an MMO, (making an MMO is always in the back of my mind) that we would need something like you are describing. Now I won't go into specifics, but I think I have away of doing exactly what you're describing.
Now this is just a theory and I know this is not something I will be able to do in a month, or probably a year, but it is something I will continue to work on.
As to answering your direct questions, if I can adapt things the way I think I can, no quest would ever be the same, unless the person had every single detail the same as another person. There by story arcs and quest lines would need a wide variety of outcomes, but it would be very hard to get the same result for every person.
As far as an a "in game economy", I've been thinking about that one alot as well. I hate gold farmers/RMT/micro transactions, so trying to come up with a way to make all that as hard as possible has been something my business partner and I have looked into as well and you're right, there are no easy solutions.
When I began this journey, I realized there wouldn't be any "easy button", but I'm in this for the long haul. My only real problem with all of this is I'm disabled and on a tremendous amount of pain killers. Sometimes having the ability to focus for long periods of time or at all, causes problems. Sometimes I can fight through it, sometimes I can't.
edited
SWG? Pull the plug already!
What games Vets go to really depend on what they liked most about SWG. for example, those who like dthe sandbox approach trended towards EvE or Ryzom. Those who liked PvP moved back to daoc or await WAR/AoC
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Skill Based, swords and magic, FFA PvP, Player looting, extensive crafting, player housing, large world, good quests, A LOT of players.
Thats what I want
And thats why I patiently wait for Darkfall
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Give me a good skill based sandbox game, and i'll give you a cookie!
I'm going to guess we're going to see nothing but WoW cookie cutters for the foreseeable future. Until at least some of these studio's get a grip and clue. Too bad there's no real room for the Indie market, if you don't have 10's of millions to throw at a project you're pretty much wasting your time. Sad really.
SWG? Pull the plug already!
What I would like in an MMO:
My first MMO that I played was actually Anarchy-Online. This game kept me occupied for 4 years and had one of the best character skill systems I've seen. Simply because it allowed you to work into what ever gear, weapon you wanted. If you wanted to do it, and could find a way to do it, you could equip that nice sword or piece of armor to be different. One of my best friends, back in the very early days of Anarchy-Online was one of the first to put a Queen Blade on his Doctor. All that aside, I just feel that this sort of skill stat system was fantastic, and would love to see it again.
The other would be crafting. Now, many know how badly Vanguard started out. However, I believe they (right next to pre-cu SWG) had a wonderful crafting system. It actually felt as if you were doing something and not just putting a few items in a box and telling it to craft (WoW *caugh*). Vanguard was the only game I've played, out of many, that made me feel as if I was accomplishing something when I was crafting. It was quite enjoyable.
Leveling in an MMO. Well this one is always hard for any game to pull off, making each player happy. I would really like to see something that allowed not only group leveling and encouraged group leveling, but also did not remove solo-leveling either. Yes, we're playing an MMO and we should probably utilize the community for our leveling. But there are times where folks don't want to team and want to solo for what ever reason. I'm sorry, but I really don't have a good example to provide since no game really has done this well at all. The only one I can is maybe, FF11 which offered Puppet Master and Beast Master. I enjoyed leveling my Puppet Master in that game, since it did tend to take a while to get groups.
PvP, a topic that people like to debate. I'm all for PVP, instanced or FFA, either is fine with me. However, if PVP is going to be in a game I would like to see it have some sort of benefit to the players and not just the "Kill person A over and over" for no reward. I've always been a big fan of (not sure how to describe it) PVP Control for towers, or land something along those lines. Like in Anarchy-Online, they added back in the day Tower Battles. People can fight over tower spots, which were separated by level. Once you got the spot, you could build towers, which you could add things to add stats to an entire guild. Also, and individual player could add their own towers for personal stat boosts. Stuff like this I found to be a lot of fun, because it provided some sort of reward for defending and or attacking ones field.
Death penalty. Now, I played FF11 for several years. If no one is familiar, in this game when you die you loose XP. You can loose enough XP to actual de-level. I liked this system personally, although the de-leveling can be a bit harsh with some folks. Death penalty is one thing I really don't have an opinion about. What ever it might be I'm ok with.
Finally... If I were to pick an MMO style I would like it to be SCI-FI... There have not been enough of these and I personally prefer a SCI-FI based MMO over Fantasy.
Just my 2-Cents... have a good one.
Best game ever played (Anarchy-Online - 4yrs of Service)
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Have Played: FFXI, SWG, EQ2, L2, GW, CoH/X, Vanguard, WoW, LOTRO, MxO, AoC
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Currently Playing: WAR (Wurtbad Server) Chaos - Mourtok (Maurader) // Alissua (DoK)
Hmm i'd like to see a game similiar to pre cu SWG even though that might not happen , but The Agency sounds like a good bet
List of SOE lies
-- NO PLAYER LEVELS!!! (yes, I yelled thisbut for me this has become the biggie; nothing kills a community like player levels)
-- a good combination of combat and non-combat roles; non-combat roles need to play an important part in the game and should go beyond just crafting and harvesting to others such as entertainers/ doctors/ politicans; players should not be forced to do both but should be able to do a combination if the player chooses
-- the ability to pick and choose what skills to learn and the ability to change those skills by dropping one and earning the ability to gain a different one
-- give me a reason to have multiple accounts; in SWG there was so much to do that 1 toon was not enough to do everything I wanted and there was a viable reason to have 2 toons on at the same time (or switch between toons when my desires/needs changed....tired of combat, dance/play music or craft for a bit; need a little money so I can buy more resources, switch to my combat character and finish off a few missions for some creds); with WoW, there was no need to have two toons on at the same time and I could have multiple toons on the same server on one account if I wanted to try out other professions or do more than one type of crafting)
-- allow me multiple ways to gain xp -- questing, mission terminals, random kills across various locations; one thing I would like to see added to a system like pre-cu had is the ability for players to create quests/missions (want a pair of bright pink hawtpants and can't find them on a vendor search? create a mission for them and when someone completes the mission you get the hawtpink pants and the person who accepted the mission gets the "reward" you placed; "kits" could also exist for mayor of a town to also create "scavenger hunt" type quests)
-- ease of travel without insta-travel; I don't need to just click on some object in my inventory to "poof" to where I'm going but spending all my in-game time traveling from the location of one quest to another is not my idea of fun and having to walk to a location to "unlock" the ability to travel to it is also not my idea of fun (WoW, Ryzom); although I will admit that one of my first noobie experiences in SWG was getting an ent mission from a terminal in Mos E where I spawned/did the noobie droid thing and walking all the way to AH following that arrow and not having a clue what I was doing or where I was going
-- player cities that mean something...in SWG it was possible to have your storyline be "one who never ventured far from home" and live that, one could theoretically go all the way from noob to completed template without wandering far from their player city....other people in city crafted everything you needed, the cantina had Master Dancer/Master Musician to heal and buff you, the medical center had a doctor, the mayor could place the npc trainers or you could gain skills from your fellow townsmen, mission terminals allowed you to get xp within 1k-2k of the player city; try that storyline in WoW...as long as you don't plan on getting far beyond level 10 you might be able to stay in your homeland; one thing extra I would like to see is a combination of draws to player city and server city (give noobs a reason to go check out player cities and give vets a reason to want to hang out in server cities....have certain benefits to each....maybe the resources near a player city are better and cost less energy to harvest or combat xp is better from a player city but doc/ent buffs last longer if done in server city or the payout of missions from server cities are higher....not sure what balance of benefits would work but something to think about)
-- character customization...(not just skills/professions)...this includes the looks one chooses in creating the character but it also includes having a combination of armor and clothing with a choice of colors and styles...everything that allows me to look into a crowd of toons and be able to tell exactly which one is mine
-- (not a necessity but a nice extra that goes along with character customization) a variety of species to choose from, and not all human-like, give me a choice of things with scales or fur too
-- (another non-necessity but nice feature) do languages right; in SWG once you learned the languages, all you ever saw was "basic" (which for me meant English), which made languages fairly useless; what would have been nice to have instead is the language spoken shown in speech bubbles and the "translation" shown in the chat window....in crazy crowds, one would have needed to focus on the chat window to know what people were saying but in less crowded places on could have easily seen the speech bubble first then looked at the chat window
-- encourage grouping without forcing grouping; there should be areas/creatures that require groups but one should not be forced into grouping in order to progress in the game; also one should always be able to kill things that are at one's ability range, be able to kill a little higher with buffs/armor, and be able to kill a lot higher when in a group; and there should always be stuff one can kill successfully and get decent xp (lets say the average xp from a kill is 100 and the only creatures I can find either give me 10 xp or kill me....not a good thing and the game becomes frustrating)
Hmm i'd like to see a game similiar to pre cu SWG even though that might not happen , but The Agency sounds like a good bet
The Agency can go friggin' bite it. I will not play any game that has an "item mall" run by the same company that puts out the game. And a lot of other people won't either. The fact that it's SOE doing that, in a cynical attempt to get more than the $15/mo for a standard sub, makes me even LESS likely to play.
No thanks.
I am waiting on Fallen Earth, like many others. Good looking game, good company that actually likes its (to be) customers. Who'da thunk it.