Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...
Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...
But thats hypohthetical fantasy land. In the end, it ALWAYS comes down to only a few viable builds. UO, AC, Eve. There are templates that are far superior to all the others. In the end, class based games have more viable choices because every class can be played. In UO and AC there were maybe 2 or 3 useful templates and everything else was strictly for RP. In Eve anything is viable, because if you're in a fleet of 100 and you're plnking away with rockets, you're technically doing "something". That kind of contribution doesn't exactly count as fun in other MMOs. Eve's level of balance is the same as a lvl 10 doing 2 pts damage to a level 70 in WOW.
Of course you could say, "make all you choices viable". I can say I want to win the lottery every day as well. Its not happening=)
Why does it has to be determined by the devs that you have points to allocated or none?
Gah, I rather get rid of a few designers and get a few more programmer so some servers have the package deal stuff where you don't have stats to allocated...and some servers are allowing you some measure of freedom in allocating your stats instead of having something pre-determined.
Freedom is cool. If the casuals want everything chewed for them and not be shafted, make a casual server and normal server.
MMOs lack choice, no matter what they say. PvP this, RvR here, Raid that...what if differents servers offer different options? I am tired of devs who say: All servers are like that. Okay champion, what about having not 2 servers with the same rules at release and then expand the popular ones? Give the choices to the players.
Don't care if the devs think this or that, give the freaking choice to the players. They will play on the servers they want. And if nobody pick the RvR or Raiding server, well, just take that as a lesson and focus on what they want. Gah. These devs forget that, they are there to make money and offer choices to the players. You want to beat WoW? Offers MORE choice, not less (hint hint at most "new releases" that won't even offer 3 VERY different setting).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...
But thats hypohthetical fantasy land. In the end, it ALWAYS comes down to only a few viable builds. UO, AC, Eve. There are templates that are far superior to all the others. In the end, class based games have more viable choices because every class can be played. In UO and AC there were maybe 2 or 3 useful templates and everything else was strictly for RP. In Eve anything is viable, because if you're in a fleet of 100 and you're plnking away with rockets, you're technically doing "something". That kind of contribution doesn't exactly count as fun in other MMOs. Eve's level of balance is the same as a lvl 10 doing 2 pts damage to a level 70 in WOW.
Of course you could say, "make all you choices viable". I can say I want to win the lottery every day as well. Its not happening=)
heh in UO there were tons of effective builds. In ac there werent as many... but there were options. UO however had many...
I NEVER met one person that had remotely the sdame build as me in EVE Online. Whoever is spreading this is purely misinformed I promise you that
Sure there are recommended 'skills' you should pickup but you also have ship configuration, modules, implants, etc that all contribute to unique setups. And of course, our builds never matchup because certain skills might be must-have for your race true- but the vast majority of skills are simply what you find useful
And the beauty is if a 'skill' because too must-have and it gets nerfed- we all get nerfed. So no one is disadvantaged after a developer sweep. We all remain viable, never gimped. With time, any build can become viable
In a Class based game you Live with the Developers decisions and you can only reroll, losing countless hours invested into an avatar. Granted, Blizzard never seemed to make this sort of bad judgement but other not-so-wise developers have made questionable decisions. Skill-based systems give gamers fine control over their development. 'Static' Class based games are great for just jumping in and playing (thus more mainstream-y).
MMORPGs are about pulling in non-rpg veterans so Classes are just a simple fast solution. But I suspect we'll see more complex character development options as the market becomes a lot more saturated
Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
That is assuming the skills are balanced and interesting. It is 10x harder to do it in a skill-based system because it is difficult to predict how players will pick up their skills.
And in a class system, you can always choose which class to follow. For example, in WOW, there are 9 classes (10 soon) x 3 talent trees = 30 base path. There are variations (for example, there are at least 2-3 good fire spec for mage), and then you can take up diff professions.
While it is not infinite, the number of combinations are quite large.
So I don't think variability is the key diff. In fact, that boils down to how much ability content the developer can create. The only difference is that a class LOCKS a char into a certain set of paths.
That is not a problem if grinding up a char is not a lot of work. Instead of switching skills, you just switch class and play another char.
I still think Guild Wars trumps with their idea of how to run a class based system. A pick ur poison, build a deck magic the gathering style with a dump into an attribute pool to make the deck stronger. Couple that with over a thousand skills and bam, a very nice system.
It's class based but built around hybrid play.
New builds, very viable builds are found everyday. Granted they said that in GW2 that the scope would be toned down (which I personally think is a mistake..but hey, it's not my game), but for now that system was/is done well imo. Too bad I wanted a non instanced world and a tad better community or I would still play it religiously.
Devs choose the route of class based systems for imo one very simple/practical reason, it's easier to balance.
Originally posted by gestalt11 If you do this everyone complains about balance.
The two major names coming out are PvP titles so its not that surprising they went for classes.
However I will say I think they are kind of copping out. Although Guild Wars probably is a game that you do not believe fits your archetype. It actually does do so even though there are classes. GW has over 1000 abilites each with their own stats and you can cusomize your abilites with each one via your attributes, which are essentially analogous to skill points. Each class has on average over 100 abilities and everyone can have 2 classes so you can have somewhere between 200-300 abilities to choose from. There are no restrictions in class combinations. GW lets you build a character in a very similar way to the systems you describe. Whether people like the progression model is irrelevant for this disucssion. The point is that you do not need a UO skill style game to accomplish roughly the same thing. Afterall putting points into skill just gives you abilities anyway.
The reason i mention this is because of the balance thing. GW is a very well balanced PvP game. This is because they came up with a meta-system then created all their abilities to make the real system. They have interrupts and enchantments and enchantment removal and hexes and each type is designed to perform a certain way. When GW creates a class the only balance concern they need to worry about is whether the abilities do what is intended for that class and that certain undesirable phenomenon like tank-mages are either not possible or have a weakness (like relying on enchantments).
So in other words you won't see this type of system start to pop up again until games start balancing the way Guild Wars, via a comprehensive ability design using a meta system, does instead of the way WoW does, via class and role. This won't happen anytime soon. Most designers do not have the ability for elegance that Anet or CCP do. Its much easier for them to cobble things together into classes and call it done.
Its the same reason many programmers use iterative Loops instead of recursion even though sometimes the recursion is a far more elegant solution. Its just easier to think about and grab a hold of with your mind. The funny thing is they convince themselves this makes class based balanced easier to do, because its a simple model. But actually its a model with many unseen holes and is thus much harder to balance than Guild War's style balancing. The class balance model requires a complete reanalysis of everything everytime any change is made. The Guild Wars system does not. That is one of the reasons it is superior for an MMORPG. However this fact is not generally fully understood or taken into consideration and usually the apparent simplness of of the class based model wins people over. Its a sort of misidentification of the KISS principle. They are keeping the wrong part simple.
They think by keeping the classes simple balance will be simple, but then they just keeping running into the problems of cascading changes and strange interactions because they did not actually design systematically.
So you are screwed until this becomes obvious to the slacker monkey part of their brains. I don't say that pejoratively, laziness is important for designers. It is your motivation for doing things right. But at the same time it can be very simplistic and its not until you get hit of the head enough with the problems of the two approaches that you sort of begrudingly say "OK lets try it this way, because that other way was too much of a night mare."
Right now the skilled based people are the victim of completely awful balance, well really complete lack of balance, that existed in games like UO. The designers saw this knew it was bad, heard the complaints and knew it hurt their bottom line. They then looked at how to control those system better and just saw a complete mess and ran as fast as they could to what appears to be the easy solution: classes.
They are now in the process of realizing class balance, while offering some improvments over no balance at all, is in fact a big hairball of wires that you have to untangle every frigging time. So while you can set up decent balance maintaining it is a gigantic pain. And you will need to do some maintainence because there is no way you do it perfect the first time and things change anyway.
The next step will be getting past the idea that class are a necessary evil and there is no other solution. Over the next few you will see that mantra repeated over and over. It already is. Then a few attentive designers will realize the whole thing is already solved in GW and that emulating them will actually give them and the players more freedom and make balance easier to maintain.
So you are screwed for I dunno like 5 years or until Guild Wars 2 comes out. Or you can play Eve. Or maybe that World of Darkness MMO CCP is supposedly making. Otherwise you are screwed for a while because it will take them a while to move to a more comprehensive and elegant balance system and that is what drives all this. Well also the robot like reliance on class roles messes with their thinking too. But in the end they actually need to do the original design with no classes and put classes on top if they want roles, other wise they go back to their hairball.
Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
That is assuming the skills are balanced and interesting. It is 10x harder to do it in a skill-based system because it is difficult to predict how players will pick up their skills. And in a class system, you can always choose which class to follow. For example, in WOW, there are 9 classes (10 soon) x 3 talent trees = 30 base path.
World of Warcraft forums has always had more Class/PVP balance complaints more then EVE Online (boundless skill-based system)
This is the thing- in Class based mmorpgs players get jealous / envious of other Classes, talent trees, etc
Being a Shaman in pre-TBC, I can tesitfy our forums were aflame with balance complaints. I'm sure this still goes on- perhaps for Warlocks or Hunters these days
In a skill-based mmorpg where everything is 'boundless' (no skill cap, limitless potential), this is just not as large of an issue. Not to the extent surely you see an entire forum aflame
In City of Heroes we saw Flavor-of-the-month a lot. Which was GREAT, players were discovering new builds and tactical options.
But then on Villain side there was no FoTM. Ice primary reigned supreme and it made the game very boring. Sure, they had all these other Classes but it was useless when only 1 or 2 combos reigned supreme and all others were drastically inferior on a mathematical level
Originally posted by nariusseldon Even if I am ABLE to figure it out, it does not mean that I *want* to spend the time to do so. Playing a game should not be like doing work. It should be fun & easy. I don't see a problem in making it easy enough so people can ENJOY the process, rather than stressing about it. Playing a game is about consuming content. And anything in between the player and the content is a barrier.
EPIC FAIL.
Allowing someone to create a custom character that has their own advantages and disadvantages adds an inconceivable amount of content to a game. There is no 'stress' involved in building a character if the game allows for mistakes (paid resets, etc...). Not everyone wants a cookie-cutter MMO that plays like a FPS. Custom built characters add infinite diversity and strategy to a game.
The only flaw with such a detailed character system lies within the stupidity of the average gamer.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Even if I am ABLE to figure it out, it does not mean that I *want* to spend the time to do so. Playing a game should not be like doing work. It should be fun & easy. I don't see a problem in making it easy enough so people can ENJOY the process, rather than stressing about it. Playing a game is about consuming content. And anything in between the player and the content is a barrier.
EPIC FAIL.
Allowing someone to create a custom character that has their own advantages and disadvantages adds an inconceivable amount of content to a game. There is no 'stress' involved in building a character if the game allows for mistakes (paid resets, etc...). Not everyone wants a cookie-cutter MMO that plays like a FPS. Custom built characters add infinite diversity and strategy to a game.
The only flaw with such a detailed character system lies within the stupidity of the average gamer.
There is .. if I have to spend my precious play time to do trial and errors. Why do you think info sites for WOW is so popular? It is because running around searching for an NPC is not difficult, but boring.
Don't mix up time consuming with real difficulty. Solving a dynamic control problem in the context of a stochastic process is difficult. Trying out 200 variations and grinding for the gold to respec is NOT.
And LOL ... none of the MMORPGs play like a FPS. There is no aiming and no trigger happy gameplay.
Skilled base systems, are the way to go, the whole balance issue can be taken care of with good testing, and making adjustments to the system, or adding enough new abiliites that not everyone can get. But most companies don't want to testing extensively, they rather pre-launch early to make a buck or cas' of mishandle budgets, instead of releasing a quality product. A class system makes this happen quicker. I prefer freedom when it comes to mmos. I look forward to Champions Online, hopefully they get it right if they stick to their goal, cas the main focus is total character customization. I loved AC1, it was/is great game. There will always be players who complain about balance issues cas someone who actually knows how to play and create a powerful character, get angry and want some gimped easy route to defeat the elite. So, then it always comes down to who has the best gear only. Eve is an excellent skill based system with lots of diversity, it can be done right it just takes more work.
I had tons of fun in AC with the system it had, I could run really really fast if I wanted to
I actually had a friend that put all his points into run...that was interesting...
But seriously...I agree with OP, I really like these systems, so your character might end up gimped...but that's whats so fun about it, you have to THINK about what your doing. Or they could just make it so you don't have a limit to your power, just gets really hard to lvl anything else up when you get to the end.
Personally, I like a mix of skills and combat. That way when I get bored of training one, I can move right into the other!
__________________________________________________ In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Fallen Earth, APB, Champions Online. Three games in production that do not follow the "cookie cut" standard. All three with different approaches to character development, but follow a stat based scheme instead of classes.
PvP balance isn't such a big issue if there are other things in the game to do. And even in PvP there are ways to diversify it. Some builds are good at dueling, some at group battle. There are other ways to gain balance than just trying to make all the skills the same.
Its easier for developers to go class based (or cookie cutter based) rather than skill or stat based. Its really that simple. The problem is easier is not always better.
I would LOVE to see a game go back to the original UO or Asherons type system.
Originally posted by Wakkaz Yeah but these stat games at least in PVP are exactly like having talents, its just numbers you use.
You cant just put points any which way or you'll die constantly hence cookie cutters.
If you want to use a 2 hander you max out STR, if you want dual wields you max out DEX and AGI or whatever.
So tell me whats the difference in that and a talent that makes you better with a 2 hand or dual wielding?
There isnt. Either way you put points in something you have to have, hence its nowhere near as customizable as you make it out to be.
Well the key to a stat based game is getting around the diminishing returns. The idea is to punish min/max players to giving them less benefit from maxing out skills. Thus, the players ideally find it more effective to spread their points around
So sure, some will min/max but a good stat based system is supposed to punish min/maxing by cauing them to receive much less benefit from maxing out something
didnt play AC1 but it sounds very familiar to the stat based pen and paper of old from what I read. Those achieved balanced through diminishing returns. Some MUDs do it that way too (hence why im familiar with it)
I wonder if it is even going to matter anymore, skill-based vs. class-based. By that I mean that so many people are used to using set builds for characters, what would keep people from just looking up the skill build that all the other sheep are using and raising those skills?
Raiding and "end-game" have really done a number on MMO's if you ask me. Sure they can be fun and all, but at the cost of individuality, or what amounts to said individuality.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Originally posted by nAAtimus Fallen Earth, APB, Champions Online. Three games in production that do not follow the "cookie cut" standard. All three with different approaches to character development, but follow a stat based scheme instead of classes. Well, they're what I'm most anticipating.
Yeah theres a lot of games in development now trying new things. Everyone is sort fo scrabling to differentiate themselves from World of Warcraft now that they've seen the less then encouraging reports from titles that resembled WoW a little too closely (my guess)....
AC was/is THE game. I'd love to go back to that day!
Skill-based is so much better than Class-based. I hate so much a game where you go into a town and find that there are only 4 different types of characters around. I don't get it, how is this enjoyable? The whole point of an MMO is to have an alternate life that you put the effort into and created yourself! Its yours, its not some lil copy of a template created by the devs. If you want that, go to korea please, it must be a required course in school to learn how to make these or something. Its more fun to create your character into what you want it to be rather than watch your character walk down a path created for it (oh my, seems a lil religious here ha).
Some people have been saying that games are not meant to be tedious and just supposed to be easy and fun. How old are you? do you put forth any effort into anything? Like are you playing the right genre here? Go back to consoles please. Skill-based games ARE fun. I guess we just have two different types of people here. I myself am an individual that would rather play with a character that I created myself with the given ingredients over a character that has been created for me but I just created the name. Trust me I've played both.
Others before this have said it best, its harder to create a skill-based game over class-based. In my free time i've been developing a system (not a game) of how skills are calculated to what functions and what determines what abilities and so on. It is a lot of work you just gotta spend the time to do it. Will I ever do something with this? I hope so, but if not I know that I am one out of a few that have put forth the effort.
Maybe we just need WoW to die. Oops didn't mean to say it, oh well its true. Die WoW Die
Before this generation of devs we had games that required thinking and challenged you...Now we have games that are glamorous and F-U-N.
And my last bit of info since the OP mentioned AC.....--AC3 FTW!!! When I finish my learnings I will definently look into getting this on the shelves. (I can dream can't i?) GO SKILLBASED.
Current: Puzzle Pirates Waiting: SWTOR,Aion, CO Played: AC, WoW, SB, EVE
Comments
I agree... not all wow players are prepubescent idiots... but a lot of them are.
Basically a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.
Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...
Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...
But thats hypohthetical fantasy land. In the end, it ALWAYS comes down to only a few viable builds. UO, AC, Eve. There are templates that are far superior to all the others. In the end, class based games have more viable choices because every class can be played. In UO and AC there were maybe 2 or 3 useful templates and everything else was strictly for RP. In Eve anything is viable, because if you're in a fleet of 100 and you're plnking away with rockets, you're technically doing "something". That kind of contribution doesn't exactly count as fun in other MMOs. Eve's level of balance is the same as a lvl 10 doing 2 pts damage to a level 70 in WOW.
Of course you could say, "make all you choices viable". I can say I want to win the lottery every day as well. Its not happening=)
Why does it has to be determined by the devs that you have points to allocated or none?
Gah, I rather get rid of a few designers and get a few more programmer so some servers have the package deal stuff where you don't have stats to allocated...and some servers are allowing you some measure of freedom in allocating your stats instead of having something pre-determined.
Freedom is cool. If the casuals want everything chewed for them and not be shafted, make a casual server and normal server.
MMOs lack choice, no matter what they say. PvP this, RvR here, Raid that...what if differents servers offer different options? I am tired of devs who say: All servers are like that. Okay champion, what about having not 2 servers with the same rules at release and then expand the popular ones? Give the choices to the players.
Don't care if the devs think this or that, give the freaking choice to the players. They will play on the servers they want. And if nobody pick the RvR or Raiding server, well, just take that as a lesson and focus on what they want. Gah. These devs forget that, they are there to make money and offer choices to the players. You want to beat WoW? Offers MORE choice, not less (hint hint at most "new releases" that won't even offer 3 VERY different setting).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...
But thats hypohthetical fantasy land. In the end, it ALWAYS comes down to only a few viable builds. UO, AC, Eve. There are templates that are far superior to all the others. In the end, class based games have more viable choices because every class can be played. In UO and AC there were maybe 2 or 3 useful templates and everything else was strictly for RP. In Eve anything is viable, because if you're in a fleet of 100 and you're plnking away with rockets, you're technically doing "something". That kind of contribution doesn't exactly count as fun in other MMOs. Eve's level of balance is the same as a lvl 10 doing 2 pts damage to a level 70 in WOW.
Of course you could say, "make all you choices viable". I can say I want to win the lottery every day as well. Its not happening=)
heh in UO there were tons of effective builds. In ac there werent as many... but there were options. UO however had many...
As for eve... your rather uninformed...
I NEVER met one person that had remotely the sdame build as me in EVE Online. Whoever is spreading this is purely misinformed I promise you that
Sure there are recommended 'skills' you should pickup but you also have ship configuration, modules, implants, etc that all contribute to unique setups. And of course, our builds never matchup because certain skills might be must-have for your race true- but the vast majority of skills are simply what you find useful
And the beauty is if a 'skill' because too must-have and it gets nerfed- we all get nerfed. So no one is disadvantaged after a developer sweep. We all remain viable, never gimped. With time, any build can become viable
In a Class based game you Live with the Developers decisions and you can only reroll, losing countless hours invested into an avatar. Granted, Blizzard never seemed to make this sort of bad judgement but other not-so-wise developers have made questionable decisions. Skill-based systems give gamers fine control over their development. 'Static' Class based games are great for just jumping in and playing (thus more mainstream-y).
MMORPGs are about pulling in non-rpg veterans so Classes are just a simple fast solution. But I suspect we'll see more complex character development options as the market becomes a lot more saturated
That is assuming the skills are balanced and interesting. It is 10x harder to do it in a skill-based system because it is difficult to predict how players will pick up their skills.
And in a class system, you can always choose which class to follow. For example, in WOW, there are 9 classes (10 soon) x 3 talent trees = 30 base path. There are variations (for example, there are at least 2-3 good fire spec for mage), and then you can take up diff professions.
While it is not infinite, the number of combinations are quite large.
So I don't think variability is the key diff. In fact, that boils down to how much ability content the developer can create. The only difference is that a class LOCKS a char into a certain set of paths.
That is not a problem if grinding up a char is not a lot of work. Instead of switching skills, you just switch class and play another char.
I still think Guild Wars trumps with their idea of how to run a class based system. A pick ur poison, build a deck magic the gathering style with a dump into an attribute pool to make the deck stronger. Couple that with over a thousand skills and bam, a very nice system.
It's class based but built around hybrid play.
New builds, very viable builds are found everyday. Granted they said that in GW2 that the scope would be toned down (which I personally think is a mistake..but hey, it's not my game), but for now that system was/is done well imo. Too bad I wanted a non instanced world and a tad better community or I would still play it religiously.
Devs choose the route of class based systems for imo one very simple/practical reason, it's easier to balance.
oh ok, I missed this post...yeah, i agree
World of Warcraft forums has always had more Class/PVP balance complaints more then EVE Online (boundless skill-based system)
This is the thing- in Class based mmorpgs players get jealous / envious of other Classes, talent trees, etc
Being a Shaman in pre-TBC, I can tesitfy our forums were aflame with balance complaints. I'm sure this still goes on- perhaps for Warlocks or Hunters these days
In a skill-based mmorpg where everything is 'boundless' (no skill cap, limitless potential), this is just not as large of an issue. Not to the extent surely you see an entire forum aflame
In City of Heroes we saw Flavor-of-the-month a lot. Which was GREAT, players were discovering new builds and tactical options.
But then on Villain side there was no FoTM. Ice primary reigned supreme and it made the game very boring. Sure, they had all these other Classes but it was useless when only 1 or 2 combos reigned supreme and all others were drastically inferior on a mathematical level
Yeah but these stat games at least in PVP are exactly like having talents, its just numbers you use.
You cant just put points any which way or you'll die constantly hence cookie cutters.
If you want to use a 2 hander you max out STR, if you want dual wields you max out DEX and AGI or whatever.
So tell me whats the difference in that and a talent that makes you better with a 2 hand or dual wielding?
There isnt. Either way you put points in something you have to have, hence its nowhere near as customizable as you make it out to be.
EPIC FAIL.
Allowing someone to create a custom character that has their own advantages and disadvantages adds an inconceivable amount of content to a game. There is no 'stress' involved in building a character if the game allows for mistakes (paid resets, etc...). Not everyone wants a cookie-cutter MMO that plays like a FPS. Custom built characters add infinite diversity and strategy to a game.
The only flaw with such a detailed character system lies within the stupidity of the average gamer.
EPIC FAIL.
Allowing someone to create a custom character that has their own advantages and disadvantages adds an inconceivable amount of content to a game. There is no 'stress' involved in building a character if the game allows for mistakes (paid resets, etc...). Not everyone wants a cookie-cutter MMO that plays like a FPS. Custom built characters add infinite diversity and strategy to a game.
The only flaw with such a detailed character system lies within the stupidity of the average gamer.
There is .. if I have to spend my precious play time to do trial and errors. Why do you think info sites for WOW is so popular? It is because running around searching for an NPC is not difficult, but boring.
Don't mix up time consuming with real difficulty. Solving a dynamic control problem in the context of a stochastic process is difficult. Trying out 200 variations and grinding for the gold to respec is NOT.
And LOL ... none of the MMORPGs play like a FPS. There is no aiming and no trigger happy gameplay.
Too hard for the devs to balance is my guess.
That and everyone would have the same spec.
Skilled base systems, are the way to go, the whole balance issue can be taken care of with good testing, and making adjustments to the system, or adding enough new abiliites that not everyone can get. But most companies don't want to testing extensively, they rather pre-launch early to make a buck or cas' of mishandle budgets, instead of releasing a quality product. A class system makes this happen quicker. I prefer freedom when it comes to mmos. I look forward to Champions Online, hopefully they get it right if they stick to their goal, cas the main focus is total character customization. I loved AC1, it was/is great game. There will always be players who complain about balance issues cas someone who actually knows how to play and create a powerful character, get angry and want some gimped easy route to defeat the elite. So, then it always comes down to who has the best gear only. Eve is an excellent skill based system with lots of diversity, it can be done right it just takes more work.
I had tons of fun in AC with the system it had, I could run really really fast if I wanted to
I actually had a friend that put all his points into run...that was interesting...
But seriously...I agree with OP, I really like these systems, so your character might end up gimped...but that's whats so fun about it, you have to THINK about what your doing. Or they could just make it so you don't have a limit to your power, just gets really hard to lvl anything else up when you get to the end.
Personally, I like a mix of skills and combat. That way when I get bored of training one, I can move right into the other!
__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten
Fallen Earth, APB, Champions Online. Three games in production that do not follow the "cookie cut" standard. All three with different approaches to character development, but follow a stat based scheme instead of classes.
Well, they're what I'm most anticipating.
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
PvP balance isn't such a big issue if there are other things in the game to do. And even in PvP there are ways to diversify it. Some builds are good at dueling, some at group battle. There are other ways to gain balance than just trying to make all the skills the same.
http://mmo-hell.blogspot.com/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/rejad
Its easier for developers to go class based (or cookie cutter based) rather than skill or stat based. Its really that simple. The problem is easier is not always better.
I would LOVE to see a game go back to the original UO or Asherons type system.
I hate where games are going now.
Well the key to a stat based game is getting around the diminishing returns. The idea is to punish min/max players to giving them less benefit from maxing out skills. Thus, the players ideally find it more effective to spread their points around
So sure, some will min/max but a good stat based system is supposed to punish min/maxing by cauing them to receive much less benefit from maxing out something
didnt play AC1 but it sounds very familiar to the stat based pen and paper of old from what I read. Those achieved balanced through diminishing returns. Some MUDs do it that way too (hence why im familiar with it)
I wonder if it is even going to matter anymore, skill-based vs. class-based. By that I mean that so many people are used to using set builds for characters, what would keep people from just looking up the skill build that all the other sheep are using and raising those skills?
Raiding and "end-game" have really done a number on MMO's if you ask me. Sure they can be fun and all, but at the cost of individuality, or what amounts to said individuality.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Yeah theres a lot of games in development now trying new things. Everyone is sort fo scrabling to differentiate themselves from World of Warcraft now that they've seen the less then encouraging reports from titles that resembled WoW a little too closely (my guess)....
AC was/is THE game. I'd love to go back to that day!
Skill-based is so much better than Class-based. I hate so much a game where you go into a town and find that there are only 4 different types of characters around. I don't get it, how is this enjoyable? The whole point of an MMO is to have an alternate life that you put the effort into and created yourself! Its yours, its not some lil copy of a template created by the devs. If you want that, go to korea please, it must be a required course in school to learn how to make these or something. Its more fun to create your character into what you want it to be rather than watch your character walk down a path created for it (oh my, seems a lil religious here ha).
Some people have been saying that games are not meant to be tedious and just supposed to be easy and fun. How old are you? do you put forth any effort into anything? Like are you playing the right genre here? Go back to consoles please. Skill-based games ARE fun. I guess we just have two different types of people here. I myself am an individual that would rather play with a character that I created myself with the given ingredients over a character that has been created for me but I just created the name. Trust me I've played both.
Others before this have said it best, its harder to create a skill-based game over class-based. In my free time i've been developing a system (not a game) of how skills are calculated to what functions and what determines what abilities and so on. It is a lot of work you just gotta spend the time to do it. Will I ever do something with this? I hope so, but if not I know that I am one out of a few that have put forth the effort.
Maybe we just need WoW to die. Oops didn't mean to say it, oh well its true. Die WoW Die
Before this generation of devs we had games that required thinking and challenged you...Now we have games that are glamorous and F-U-N.
And my last bit of info since the OP mentioned AC.....--AC3 FTW!!! When I finish my learnings I will definently look into getting this on the shelves. (I can dream can't i?) GO SKILLBASED.
Current: Puzzle Pirates
Waiting: SWTOR,Aion, CO
Played: AC, WoW, SB, EVE