The point of playing an online game is to compete with other players. Most if not all mmo s revolve around combat. If I can't fight other players why am I not in single player?
Because I can COOPERATE with other people?
cooperation and competition is a huge aspect in this genre. i prefer killing for no fucking reason. you may need a reason. Or you may just sit around and spam Chuck Norris jokes and piss everyone off till they teach you a fucking lesson. Its spammers ho m started me on pk. i pk because of them. Open PvP allowing PK anywhere puts those spammers 9 feet under. cooperation is not everything in a mmo. you don't need to cooperate with others to succeed. you could just PK and steal their shit
You can have whatever reasons for your preference. I have mine. I play MMORPGs to cooperate with others, not to compete. And that is as legitimate a reason.
Furthermore, I will vote with my dollars. You probably do that same.
My sides on MMORPGs. Hardcore > Casuals/Carebears PK > APK Wolfs > Sheeps Killers/Achievers > Socializers/Explorers Old generation > New generation Free PVP > Consensual PVP Time and Effort spent on the game > anything else
And you realize that you sides != other people sides and that people vote with their money?
PKing is amusing. But there has to be certian limits to it. Like lvl restrictions of who you can kill, say within 5 lvls of you. Really thats the only rule that i can think of that really needs to happen.
In this game I am playing, there are zones where pvp is a free-for-all for the middle and higher levels. The problem with that is, if you have gold, really good drops, or some other stuff on you and you loose, then you loose all of it.
However, I am completely fine with tournaments or something like that. Those are fun
It all depends on what kind of pvp it is... In this game I am playing, there are zones where pvp is a free-for-all for the middle and higher levels. The problem with that is, if you have gold, really good drops, or some other stuff on you and you loose, then you loose all of it. However, I am completely fine with tournaments or something like that. Those are fun
the whole losing stuff when you die sucks. but losing a fraction of the money you are carrying on you at the time, yeah thats alright to me. but items that you have worked your butt off to get seems a bit unfair imo. maybe create certian drops that drop off of every player in a certian lvl range and such. and in a higher lvl range better drops, so on and so forth. kinda takes PvP to a different lvl too if you ask me.
This has got to be the strangest post on this forum to date:
-some of you are putting down that you are anti PK, but that you PK if there is nothing going on.
-It is also strange that you are playing a very social game (MMORPG) but want to behave in an anti-social way.
Answer this:
If you PK and become an outlaw and if a player killed your outlaw toon - would you accept permadeath as punishment?
I think this feature will make players think long and hard before they treat the game like a masterbatory FPS fragfest - which is what kills these types of games. The danger is still there for the rest of the players and many times over for the PKer so everyone gets that rush.
You will not murder another player unless you are sure that what they have on them is worth murdering for.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
This has got to be the strangest post on this forum to date: -some of you are putting down that you are anti PK, but that you PK if there is nothing going on. -It is also strange that you are playing a very social game (MMORPG) but want to behave in an anti-social way. Answer this: If you PK and become an outlaw and if a player killed your outlaw toon - would you accept permadeath as punishment? I think this feature will make players think long and hard before they treat the game like a masterbatory FPS fragfest - which is what kills these types of games. The danger is still there for the rest of the players and many times over for the PKer so everyone gets that rush. You will not murder another player unless you are sure that what they have on them is worth murdering for.
Would you accept permadeath for failing to kill a raid boss? A Quest? If so, then I will agree. Samething
This has got to be the strangest post on this forum to date: -some of you are putting down that you are anti PK, but that you PK if there is nothing going on. -It is also strange that you are playing a very social game (MMORPG) but want to behave in an anti-social way. Answer this: If you PK and become an outlaw and if a player killed your outlaw toon - would you accept permadeath as punishment? I think this feature will make players think long and hard before they treat the game like a masterbatory FPS fragfest - which is what kills these types of games. The danger is still there for the rest of the players and many times over for the PKer so everyone gets that rush. You will not murder another player unless you are sure that what they have on them is worth murdering for.
Would you accept permadeath for failing to kill a raid boss? A Quest? If so, then I will agree. Samething
Perma death should be availble. i want to kill someone and then they be daed forever
Originally posted by pk-SlaydePerma death should be availble. i want to kill someone and then they be daed forever
It is great how the market works. Enough of us don't want anything like that .. and wa la, we have PvE centric games and don't have to deal with people like you.
Well, I voted PK. But in reality, I can't really say. I'm in the mood, so I'll make a post on what I want in PvP.
I hate PvP instances, can't stand that shit. And I PK anyone who's a complete asshole, or if I'm on my way somewhere, and I see some dude with an item I want, never seen him around before and know I can take the Alignment penalty(If their is one in the game) I might PK for loot. But I'll have to be in a really bad mood to do this.
I will always PK for guild / clan related issues, such as KoS, or enemy clans. The PvP type I prefer most is huge town raids. Like hundreds of people in the same screen, fighting over something, but I only like this if theirs a risk involved. I also enjoy PKing in small groups for loot. Like doing some mob grinding, lets say with some friends, I enjoy working with them to PK other players / parties, for fun and loot. However, if the player / players we're / I'm killing ask me / us to stop, I can't help it. I have to stop. I know it's 'only' a game, but I just can't do it most of the time, lol.
If I see a random lowbie being ganked, I will usually help, if I know I can handle it.
PvP has to be free-lance. No interfearence due to game mechanics. I don't mind penalties for killing people (If theirs enemy races in the game, penalties for killing your own race is nice if it fits the game mechanics, which it does, 99.9% of the time). A few SafeZones in towns and whatnot is sometimes acceptible, as some games really need this. But if devs interfear too much with things, I hate it. Their needs to be risk involved, their needs to be a reason to do it, otherwise its boring.
Did I mention I hate instancing? An MMO should be a persistant world, otherwise it takes away the point of MMO. I did however actually enjoy raiding in WoW. But the Instanced PvP was absolute shite. If it was left to me, no instances in MMOs!
Yeah, the game I've been eagerly waiting for is DarkFall. This is gonna suit me perfectly, like my dream game.
Whew! Longest forum post in any forum this week.
_________ Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
a mmorpg with no PK is just like playing tetris on easy mode, and when a games has 2 sides or more it is bound to be PKable, or it would just be pretty bad game setup, so PK is a must!
I generally need a reason to kill a player, just randomly smacking down some stranger minding their own business has little appeal.
So I suppose that puts me in the anti-pk crowd, meaning that I enjoy hunting down PKer's. (not that I don't enjoy killing folks online)
I do like it to be fair, absolutely no joy for me to kill someone 10 levels below mine. (makes me feel, dirty somehow)
I used to love playing DAOC where my guild had very specific rules of engagement, and we even had a mode to demand tribute from folks rather than kill them. (EVE has the same with Pirate ransoms)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
well, tbh, if your questing and another faction is taking your quest moob, the choice is simple, kill and be done with it o/ *Ganki ganki*
But true, ganking people that is 10 lvls lower then you is just plain bad playing, but if they are 1 lvl lower or 1 lvl higher *or even more* You shouldnt think twice, most of the times it is gank or be ganked, and that will probly be experienced ALOT of times during play time.
I had to vote anti-PK, but that's not necessarily the case. I get really bored if all that you have to do is go around killing things and that's all most games have to offer. You're either killing stuff or you're training to kill stuff or you're waiting to kill stuff. You end up in a mad dash to level 70 or whatever and then... do it all again.
We really need better games that offer more than just PVP or PVE, there needs to be more to do than just offing everything on screen. That's why people don't stick around games for long, they get bored and move on to other things that are essentially exactly the same.
I should also say that i like the idea of ransom and stuff. seems like an interesting game mech.
there are so many games out there that could have awesome PvP and such, but they dont have it. or games that should be more PvE based have way to much PvP in them.
Dang I love the battles against the antis in UO. Fighting other pks is fun too. Recently I quit playing on the UO free servers though. I have pretty much quit games altogether except for COD4. It will be fun fighting the antis in Darkfall too if it is as good as they claim, but there will be a lot more faction combat. Hopefully, DF does make it out, or some other game with a good combat system.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
This has got to be the strangest post on this forum to date: -some of you are putting down that you are anti PK, but that you PK if there is nothing going on. -It is also strange that you are playing a very social game (MMORPG) but want to behave in an anti-social way. Answer this: If you PK and become an outlaw and if a player killed your outlaw toon - would you accept permadeath as punishment? I think this feature will make players think long and hard before they treat the game like a masterbatory FPS fragfest - which is what kills these types of games. The danger is still there for the rest of the players and many times over for the PKer so everyone gets that rush. You will not murder another player unless you are sure that what they have on them is worth murdering for.
Would you accept permadeath for failing to kill a raid boss? A Quest? If so, then I will agree. Samething
Huh? I don't think we are thinking of the same type of game - i will tell you that I am thinking of something like early UO. I am not talking about killing enemies to your faction or guild I am talking about murder.
Murder should always be an option but it should come with a harsh punishment or you will scare all the decent folk away and we need them because it is a MMORPG and not a multiplayer version of Manhunt.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
It seems there is some confusion about the difference between PK and PvP.
If you do not know this difference you obviously do not know either playstyle very well.
The OP asked about PK and anti PK, yet 3/4 of all posts in this thread relates to PvP.
Its like someone who pretends to know sports at the pub and then asks, "Wich team has the red shirts?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems there is some confusion about the difference between PK and PvP. If you do not know this difference you obviously do not know either playstyle very well. The OP asked about PK and anti PK, yet 3/4 of all posts in this thread relates to PvP. Its like someone who pretends to know sports at the pub and then asks, "Wich team has the red shirts?"
PK is when you hunt down anyone weaker than you to keep them weaker. PK is basically murder in an online world. PvP is basically when both sides agree to basically deul. yes 3/4 of all posts are about PvP only some people are posting about PK. PK is murder from suprise and no reason at all. Anti's are those whom hunt PK
It's not so much about PvP vs. PvE. Player versus player, at its core, is simply players engaging in conflict with each other. It can be as tame as verbal arguments over spawn rights, or training mobs on people to grief them, if you want to take the definition at its most literal.
Even games considered to be "PvE" have PvP elements. World of Warcraft - battlegrounds, arenas, and non consensual, level unrestricted player killing on half the servers.
I believe this "split" is not between PK and anti-PK, but rather two competing [i]mindsets[/i]. And the difference between them is more fundamental than simply PvP vs. PvE.
The first group, I call them "A's". They believe in the harsh reality of cause and effect; the laws of natural consequence. They like open ended games that offer freedom. Freedom to kill and loot, but also freedom to die and be robbed. You cannot have one without the other, that is Nature's Law. These types of players like games where personal skill - any kind of skill, makes the difference. You'll see them in FPS games (naturally), PKing in UO-esque games, and playing competitive RTS's. Naturally, competition is very important to these players.
They tend to be very Darwinist in their views. They are realists; "shit happens" types of people.
The second group, I call them "B's". They believe people should be protected from harsh consequences. They believe in a higher, central authority with the power to arbitrarily restrict freedom, in order to build a better world for everybody. They believe that fairness should be determined by human ethical judgement, not naturalistic cause and effect. They like structured games that protect and shepherd players. They are not fundamentally opposed to PvP, but they would prefer that PvP be "sanitized". PvP's implementation must not overwhelmingly favor one side - by means of "filtering" combat so player skill plays less of a role, matchmaking, or combat restictions. The games they like can accomplish this by means of PvP segregation and official game-sponsored PvP in a controlled setting (battlegrounds, etc.).
These players are idealists, and can be "bleeding heart" types of people.
None of us can say that either is fundamentally superior or inferior to each other.
You may detect a slight bias in the way I described them, but can a neutral observer truly declare one better than the other on their own merits? Obviously, each of us see the world through our own lens. "Idealist" may be an insult to one and a compliment to another; one man's "realist" is another man's sociopath.
If you couldn't already tell, I fall firmly into camp "A". It is my personal belief that A is superior not only as a gameplay preference, but as a worldview. Although I will agree that in real life, we must moderate ourselves with some elements from each. Too much of either, and too little of its counterpart is a bad thing.
What pisses me off about "B" is the concepts that arise when taken to its extreme, and how these ideas manifest in virtually all modern MMO games.
Ideas like "everyone is special!", "you are entitled!", etc.
Forget the immense damage those two ideas have done in real life, let's talk about games. In an MMO, the idea that "everyone is special" makes the world awfully static. "Only YOU can kill the level 10 bandit leader that's terrorizing the town!"
EVERYBODY has to be the "hero", and of course, that makes nobody the hero. You have far too many generals, because nobody wants to be a grunt. This of course kills any chance of complex tactical combat - that's incompatible with making everybody the "hero".
Would you prefer to be a "hero" in a meaningless conflict? Or be an infantryman in an army that actually wins a meaningful fight? Not gonna lie - many people prefer the meaningless hero.
Probably the worst thing about an excess of mindset "B" though, is that there can be no true winners, because then there must be true losers. Equality over elitism. Skill is bad. Wtf? Games aren't supposed to take skill!
I've seen many people state that they don't want realtime combat in MMOs, because then they'd lose to "12 year olds high on Mountain Dew". Do they have a problem with 12 year olds? Or PepsiCo products?
What if a game implemented realistic ballstics, from trajectory to damage modeling? And forced players to utilize concepts like teamwork, cover, fields of fire, tactical movements? Would they complain about losing to soldiers?
What if a game had a deep and robust economy, where it was possible for clever entrepraneurs to amass vast resources and crush people with immense wealth? Would they complain about losing to accountants?
What if a game had detailed naval combat, with ships dependant on the wind, just like the days of yore? Would they complain about losing to sailing enthusiasts?
What if a game combined all these aspects and more, where your success in the game is a direct result of your real intelligence and skill - be it in reflexes, small unit tactics, leadership, mathematics, economics, management, or just general knowledge and cleverness? Where 12 year olds, soldiers, accountants, sailors, college students, businessmen, and any intelligent or clever person can work together to WTFPWN the other team.
It's not about having PvP or not. Plenty of games of PvP. Too few games have PvP where real skill, intelligence, and cleverness determine the winner. Too few games have PvP where the results actually matter.
I am an "A", and I am a "PK". That's how I want to play my games.
I understand that in the real world, we live as cut-throats. There is no mercy or sympathy for the losers, however dignified they are. They are always buried en masse, in mass graves, never to be identified once sacrificed. We formed a kind of society in which even the most bloodlust predator will shiver. At least, lions sit down and rest after filling their stomach, leaving the next zebra to feed on the grass for now. We do not lt go of anything even during our sleeps.
In a game though, I want a short retreat from the harsh reality. I want to log in and relax a bit, without the constant fear of dying or the need to fight people. Actually I do not want to fight with any other human being. I have enough slaughtering them and being chopped at during daytime at work.
Just let me relive the something we called humanity, during my off hours.
Comments
Because I can COOPERATE with other people?
cooperation and competition is a huge aspect in this genre. i prefer killing for no fucking reason. you may need a reason. Or you may just sit around and spam Chuck Norris jokes and piss everyone off till they teach you a fucking lesson. Its spammers ho m started me on pk. i pk because of them. Open PvP allowing PK anywhere puts those spammers 9 feet under. cooperation is not everything in a mmo. you don't need to cooperate with others to succeed. you could just PK and steal their shit
You can have whatever reasons for your preference. I have mine. I play MMORPGs to cooperate with others, not to compete. And that is as legitimate a reason.
Furthermore, I will vote with my dollars. You probably do that same.
My sides on MMORPGs.
Hardcore > Casuals/Carebears
PK > APK
Wolfs > Sheeps
Killers/Achievers > Socializers/Explorers
Old generation > New generation
Free PVP > Consensual PVP
Time and Effort spent on the game > anything else
And you realize that you sides != other people sides and that people vote with their money?
Yeah.
People are different, with different tastes and some tastes are more popular. Gaming community evolves.
WOW, Lineage 2, Runescape, Guild Wars, GTA series, The Sims series, Call of Duty 4...
All of those games are popular and completelly different.
ok here is my view on this.
PKing is amusing. But there has to be certian limits to it. Like lvl restrictions of who you can kill, say within 5 lvls of you. Really thats the only rule that i can think of that really needs to happen.
It all depends on what kind of pvp it is...
In this game I am playing, there are zones where pvp is a free-for-all for the middle and higher levels. The problem with that is, if you have gold, really good drops, or some other stuff on you and you loose, then you loose all of it.
However, I am completely fine with tournaments or something like that. Those are fun
Help me with my project! Go to http://ebby.ucoz.com/forum/2 and take the quick survey.
Thanks
the whole losing stuff when you die sucks. but losing a fraction of the money you are carrying on you at the time, yeah thats alright to me. but items that you have worked your butt off to get seems a bit unfair imo. maybe create certian drops that drop off of every player in a certian lvl range and such. and in a higher lvl range better drops, so on and so forth. kinda takes PvP to a different lvl too if you ask me.
I think in any full lootng game I ever played loot was easy to replace. In games where its more of a pain to replace you get insurance systems
Things you cant afford to lose you pput them in the bank
Guess this is why pve types hate looting the most. Cause they cant show off their items w/o worrying bout being PKed.
Guess thats why I like PK games though. if socializers want to wear their best wares better be prepared to fight to keep it
Then again, I'm always getting killed more then anything. So insurance systems is okay if the game has it.
Anyway I know looting is not for everyone so I'm shocked this thread hasnt descended into Flames and nashing of teeth yet.
Change comes quietly and completly.
This has got to be the strangest post on this forum to date:
-some of you are putting down that you are anti PK, but that you PK if there is nothing going on.
-It is also strange that you are playing a very social game (MMORPG) but want to behave in an anti-social way.
Answer this:
If you PK and become an outlaw and if a player killed your outlaw toon - would you accept permadeath as punishment?
I think this feature will make players think long and hard before they treat the game like a masterbatory FPS fragfest - which is what kills these types of games. The danger is still there for the rest of the players and many times over for the PKer so everyone gets that rush.
You will not murder another player unless you are sure that what they have on them is worth murdering for.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Would you accept permadeath for failing to kill a raid boss? A Quest? If so, then I will agree. Samething
Perma death should be availble. i want to kill someone and then they be daed foreverWould you accept permadeath for failing to kill a raid boss? A Quest? If so, then I will agree. Samething
It is great how the market works. Enough of us don't want anything like that .. and wa la, we have PvE centric games and don't have to deal with people like you.
Well, I voted PK. But in reality, I can't really say. I'm in the mood, so I'll make a post on what I want in PvP.
I hate PvP instances, can't stand that shit. And I PK anyone who's a complete asshole, or if I'm on my way somewhere, and I see some dude with an item I want, never seen him around before and know I can take the Alignment penalty(If their is one in the game) I might PK for loot. But I'll have to be in a really bad mood to do this.
I will always PK for guild / clan related issues, such as KoS, or enemy clans. The PvP type I prefer most is huge town raids. Like hundreds of people in the same screen, fighting over something, but I only like this if theirs a risk involved. I also enjoy PKing in small groups for loot. Like doing some mob grinding, lets say with some friends, I enjoy working with them to PK other players / parties, for fun and loot. However, if the player / players we're / I'm killing ask me / us to stop, I can't help it. I have to stop. I know it's 'only' a game, but I just can't do it most of the time, lol.
If I see a random lowbie being ganked, I will usually help, if I know I can handle it.
PvP has to be free-lance. No interfearence due to game mechanics. I don't mind penalties for killing people (If theirs enemy races in the game, penalties for killing your own race is nice if it fits the game mechanics, which it does, 99.9% of the time). A few SafeZones in towns and whatnot is sometimes acceptible, as some games really need this. But if devs interfear too much with things, I hate it. Their needs to be risk involved, their needs to be a reason to do it, otherwise its boring.
Did I mention I hate instancing? An MMO should be a persistant world, otherwise it takes away the point of MMO. I did however actually enjoy raiding in WoW. But the Instanced PvP was absolute shite. If it was left to me, no instances in MMOs!
Yeah, the game I've been eagerly waiting for is DarkFall. This is gonna suit me perfectly, like my dream game.
Whew! Longest forum post in any forum this week.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
a mmorpg with no PK is just like playing tetris on easy mode, and when a games has 2 sides or more it is bound to be PKable, or it would just be pretty bad game setup, so PK is a must!
*Comming Goblin shaman in WAR*
Let the killing begin!
I generally need a reason to kill a player, just randomly smacking down some stranger minding their own business has little appeal.
So I suppose that puts me in the anti-pk crowd, meaning that I enjoy hunting down PKer's. (not that I don't enjoy killing folks online)
I do like it to be fair, absolutely no joy for me to kill someone 10 levels below mine. (makes me feel, dirty somehow)
I used to love playing DAOC where my guild had very specific rules of engagement, and we even had a mode to demand tribute from folks rather than kill them. (EVE has the same with Pirate ransoms)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
well, tbh, if your questing and another faction is taking your quest moob, the choice is simple, kill and be done with it o/ *
Ganki ganki
*
But true, ganking people that is 10 lvls lower then you is just plain bad playing, but if they are 1 lvl lower or 1 lvl higher *or even more* You shouldnt think twice, most of the times it is gank or be ganked, and that will probly be experienced ALOT of times during play time.
I had to vote anti-PK, but that's not necessarily the case. I get really bored if all that you have to do is go around killing things and that's all most games have to offer. You're either killing stuff or you're training to kill stuff or you're waiting to kill stuff. You end up in a mad dash to level 70 or whatever and then... do it all again.
We really need better games that offer more than just PVP or PVE, there needs to be more to do than just offing everything on screen. That's why people don't stick around games for long, they get bored and move on to other things that are essentially exactly the same.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I should also say that i like the idea of ransom and stuff. seems like an interesting game mech.
there are so many games out there that could have awesome PvP and such, but they dont have it. or games that should be more PvE based have way to much PvP in them.
Dang I love the battles against the antis in UO. Fighting other pks is fun too. Recently I quit playing on the UO free servers though. I have pretty much quit games altogether except for COD4. It will be fun fighting the antis in Darkfall too if it is as good as they claim, but there will be a lot more faction combat. Hopefully, DF does make it out, or some other game with a good combat system.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Huh? I don't think we are thinking of the same type of game - i will tell you that I am thinking of something like early UO. I am not talking about killing enemies to your faction or guild I am talking about murder.Would you accept permadeath for failing to kill a raid boss? A Quest? If so, then I will agree. Samething
Murder should always be an option but it should come with a harsh punishment or you will scare all the decent folk away and we need them because it is a MMORPG and not a multiplayer version of Manhunt.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
It seems there is some confusion about the difference between PK and PvP.
If you do not know this difference you obviously do not know either playstyle very well.
The OP asked about PK and anti PK, yet 3/4 of all posts in this thread relates to PvP.
Its like someone who pretends to know sports at the pub and then asks, "Wich team has the red shirts?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PK is when you hunt down anyone weaker than you to keep them weaker. PK is basically murder in an online world. PvP is basically when both sides agree to basically deul. yes 3/4 of all posts are about PvP only some people are posting about PK. PK is murder from suprise and no reason at all. Anti's are those whom hunt PK
Here's how I see it.
It's not so much about PvP vs. PvE. Player versus player, at its core, is simply players engaging in conflict with each other. It can be as tame as verbal arguments over spawn rights, or training mobs on people to grief them, if you want to take the definition at its most literal.
Even games considered to be "PvE" have PvP elements. World of Warcraft - battlegrounds, arenas, and non consensual, level unrestricted player killing on half the servers.
I believe this "split" is not between PK and anti-PK, but rather two competing [i]mindsets[/i]. And the difference between them is more fundamental than simply PvP vs. PvE.
The first group, I call them "A's". They believe in the harsh reality of cause and effect; the laws of natural consequence. They like open ended games that offer freedom. Freedom to kill and loot, but also freedom to die and be robbed. You cannot have one without the other, that is Nature's Law. These types of players like games where personal skill - any kind of skill, makes the difference. You'll see them in FPS games (naturally), PKing in UO-esque games, and playing competitive RTS's. Naturally, competition is very important to these players.
They tend to be very Darwinist in their views. They are realists; "shit happens" types of people.
The second group, I call them "B's". They believe people should be protected from harsh consequences. They believe in a higher, central authority with the power to arbitrarily restrict freedom, in order to build a better world for everybody. They believe that fairness should be determined by human ethical judgement, not naturalistic cause and effect. They like structured games that protect and shepherd players. They are not fundamentally opposed to PvP, but they would prefer that PvP be "sanitized". PvP's implementation must not overwhelmingly favor one side - by means of "filtering" combat so player skill plays less of a role, matchmaking, or combat restictions. The games they like can accomplish this by means of PvP segregation and official game-sponsored PvP in a controlled setting (battlegrounds, etc.).
These players are idealists, and can be "bleeding heart" types of people.
None of us can say that either is fundamentally superior or inferior to each other.
You may detect a slight bias in the way I described them, but can a neutral observer truly declare one better than the other on their own merits? Obviously, each of us see the world through our own lens. "Idealist" may be an insult to one and a compliment to another; one man's "realist" is another man's sociopath.
If you couldn't already tell, I fall firmly into camp "A". It is my personal belief that A is superior not only as a gameplay preference, but as a worldview. Although I will agree that in real life, we must moderate ourselves with some elements from each. Too much of either, and too little of its counterpart is a bad thing.
What pisses me off about "B" is the concepts that arise when taken to its extreme, and how these ideas manifest in virtually all modern MMO games.
Ideas like "everyone is special!", "you are entitled!", etc.
Forget the immense damage those two ideas have done in real life, let's talk about games. In an MMO, the idea that "everyone is special" makes the world awfully static. "Only YOU can kill the level 10 bandit leader that's terrorizing the town!"
EVERYBODY has to be the "hero", and of course, that makes nobody the hero. You have far too many generals, because nobody wants to be a grunt. This of course kills any chance of complex tactical combat - that's incompatible with making everybody the "hero".
Would you prefer to be a "hero" in a meaningless conflict? Or be an infantryman in an army that actually wins a meaningful fight? Not gonna lie - many people prefer the meaningless hero.
Probably the worst thing about an excess of mindset "B" though, is that there can be no true winners, because then there must be true losers. Equality over elitism. Skill is bad. Wtf? Games aren't supposed to take skill!
I've seen many people state that they don't want realtime combat in MMOs, because then they'd lose to "12 year olds high on Mountain Dew". Do they have a problem with 12 year olds? Or PepsiCo products?
What if a game implemented realistic ballstics, from trajectory to damage modeling? And forced players to utilize concepts like teamwork, cover, fields of fire, tactical movements? Would they complain about losing to soldiers?
What if a game had a deep and robust economy, where it was possible for clever entrepraneurs to amass vast resources and crush people with immense wealth? Would they complain about losing to accountants?
What if a game had detailed naval combat, with ships dependant on the wind, just like the days of yore? Would they complain about losing to sailing enthusiasts?
What if a game combined all these aspects and more, where your success in the game is a direct result of your real intelligence and skill - be it in reflexes, small unit tactics, leadership, mathematics, economics, management, or just general knowledge and cleverness? Where 12 year olds, soldiers, accountants, sailors, college students, businessmen, and any intelligent or clever person can work together to WTFPWN the other team.
It's not about having PvP or not. Plenty of games of PvP. Too few games have PvP where real skill, intelligence, and cleverness determine the winner. Too few games have PvP where the results actually matter.
I am an "A", and I am a "PK". That's how I want to play my games.
Ron Paul for president
To Cortanya (too long to quote)
I understand that in the real world, we live as cut-throats. There is no mercy or sympathy for the losers, however dignified they are. They are always buried en masse, in mass graves, never to be identified once sacrificed. We formed a kind of society in which even the most bloodlust predator will shiver. At least, lions sit down and rest after filling their stomach, leaving the next zebra to feed on the grass for now. We do not lt go of anything even during our sleeps.
In a game though, I want a short retreat from the harsh reality. I want to log in and relax a bit, without the constant fear of dying or the need to fight people. Actually I do not want to fight with any other human being. I have enough slaughtering them and being chopped at during daytime at work.
Just let me relive the something we called humanity, during my off hours.
Kidding :-).