The perfect and obvious solution to this problem is Optional PvP.
People interested can kill each other all day long and may they enjoy themselves doing it.
People not interested can still quest and socialize and craft, etc. without having to worry about getting ganked by a bored level capped player with nothing better to do than look for victims in the newbie zone.
I still don't understand why games force players to PVP; having it as an 'optional' thing hurts NO ONE ..by optional I mean guild vs. guild, tacital pvp, siege pvp, pvp zones (that have nothing whatsoever but pvp ...no special gear, no quest requires you to go there, etc.) flag pvp, pvp arenas, duels....the only people who argue against an optional PVP element are the people who want victims. And who cares what they think? ;P They can't have fun unless they are ruining someone else's fun, why does the industry as of late seem to cater to this group? Is this where the genre is headed?
Gaming? That's not gaming! That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
Why argue that Ford is better/worse than Chev? Ppl just like to argue. N one side always thinks they are right and the only way to think is their way or you are an idiot...quite simple.
Yes, and this thread was never meant to become an argument about PVP vs. PVE. As I said in the title, why argue about it? I'm just a PVE player (who isn't trying to complain about PVP) who wants to play better PVE quests without being told to play PVP. Just because I don't want to play PVP doesn't mean I don't think PVP games should be made, or PVP included in some combination MMO games. I'm not here to argue about it, I just want PVE to be improved.
I'm sure there are plenty of PVP players who want that system improved as well.
perhaps you should run through what the perfect quest should be. that would surely enlighten us all.
Who said I could write the perfect quest? I offered to write a simple quest that I would enjoy playing if one player wrote down the details of the best quest he played in WoW. He doesn't even have to come up with it, just write down what he played and thought was so 'Great'. Perhaps it will be great, and perhaps mine won't be as good. I'm willing to compare.
First, the number show that about 10% of MMO players play for PVP. Ok, good for them. There are PVP games out there, and more on the way (Conan, etc.). I even wish them a better PVP game soon. I'd love to see where you get these numbers. What I'd like to know is why do the vast majority of players seeking a great PVE game have to put up with the boring Grind games? We find ourselves buying the game, playing for a month or two and then realizing that this is just another endlss grind with no real adventure. What does this question have to do with the presence or absence of PVP in a game? PVP can be just as big a grind as PVE if there is no story attached to it. The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one. But what if I want a group role-playing game? What this very web site is named, an MMORPG? Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play). I don't want to stop PVP players from getting the fun they want in their games (MMOPKGs) but why is it that publishers have to give us MMORPG fans such incredtibly stupid game play? if I get another 'take this to Bob' or 'bring me 35 wolf fangs' task (I can't bring myself to call them Quests) I'm going to fall over in boredom. I'm so tired of buying each game that comes out only to find out it is more of the same crappy game play. What is a MMOPKG? Is this your way of saying the PVP and RPG are mutually exclusive. If that's the case, then you are totally wrong. At the end of the day, most players don't seem to give a crap about the story in the game. They just want to do the quest and get the xp. If you don't believe me, please explain why there are so many "guides" to tell you how to get through quests without figuring them out yourself. The minute a quest requires you to explore for something or spend some time thinking rather than just going out and killing x number of mobs, all you see is people complaining about how it is too vague, spamming the public channels for someone to tell them how to do it, going to a website for the answer, or asking for a high level character to run them through it. Please, Publishers, enough with the excuses, have some balls and back a game developer that is willing to make a real game, not a clone of the same boring crap.
It amazes me how you people keep trying to make this post an argument about PVP and RPG when even the title clearly states "Why argue for PVP or PVE". I've acknowledged PVP as a viable fan base, and though the ratios I've heard may be right or wrong, that really doesn't matter in this discussion. Let me put this to rest once again, whether you want PVP mixed with your RPG options, or just want RPG, it doesn't affect the fact that the RPG elements of the current MMO games are about sixth grade level entertainment. Collect ten rat tails, come on, that's what you think a good RPG quest should be about?
As to players who can't figure out how to play a decent quest, that's not my problem. I have to believe that there are enough intelligent people out there to back a good game, otherwise everyone in the world would play checkers, and no one would play chess. Everyone would watch children's comics, and no one would go to see a good movie. If we only make games for idiots, what does that say about us all?
That's odd, because your entire post, title included is laced with comparison of PVP and PVE. If all you were trying to discuss was why PVE sucks in current games, why even mention PVP?
Better yet, why not tell us what you think would be an example of a good PVE quest, if you think it is so horribly lacking?
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
am i right to guess the main game of discussion is wow? alot of this pvp/pve discussion stems from wow related point of view. after all theres been alot of games that have integrated pvp and pve very well. eve, lineage 2 etc. they just don't have as much content as wow granted now that wow has shown the way maybe developers can actually take the two and combine them. wow is blizzards first mmo you have to remember and so the pvp/pve aspect of the game was something they overlooked. but i bet their next game will be very well done pvp/pve. so people can just stop arguing go buy a console until something comes along you like. i did, it beats grinding hours on end for nothing, raid/pvp/farming whatever, its grinding at the end of the day. even blizzard said as much in their gdc discussions. "got to keep the gamers coming back"
There's really no way to know who's PvP or PvE and how many of each there are. In the beginning there were only a few hundred thousand of us, and we all came from "similar backgrounds," (read: major geeks) and it was clear around that time a majority favored PvE.
The MMO market is now 10 to 20 times larger, or more, than it was in the late 90's. Many millions of people have only come on board in the past few years. Who's to say these people are PvP'ers or PvE'ers when they have no real point of perspective in the genre? PvE centered games are probably all most of them know. You might hear them say "What's a 'UO'?" Get the idea?
As far as grinding goes- that's part of the appeal for developers. What's great about PvE games is that people who play them will go through all the content, get all the kewl stuff, max out, and get bored. They'll then want another grind to burn through, thus ensuring continued work for the previous developers.
If anyone made a great dynamic sandbox game, be it PvP or not, a lot of people would be out of work considering many of us could play such a game over the course of a decade with little desire for anything else. I believe that was the original purpose of MMORPGs. They weren't meant to be as disposable with little replay value; but they were perverted to be that way because of the misguided rantings of the original carebears, and the greed of folks who are running big business operations. I'm not saying every individual developer at every level is just a greedy snot... but I'm sure none of them dislike job security either.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
You know.. the games aren't the problem right?
its the players...
this is not the same generation of people who played EQ1 and UO.. there are a few hear and there.. but for the most part alot of the people playing mmo's now never ever played either of those 2 games. They don't know what it "used" to be like. The thing is.. the "game" is just a stage..like a play has a stage.. mmo's have a "stage" in which everything happens.
Even though the devs do dictate much of what goes on, on their stage.. its up to the players to user their imaginations to get the most out of the world created for them. The problem today is, eye candy and phat loot are the only 2 things anyone looks at anymore. Noone explores the world, noone thinks of new ways to do things, noone goes out looking for new friends and comrades, there is no adventure. And WoW is not really the cause of it. WoW is a very well designed game, and world... but the players are the ones lacking. They have no imagination.
UO had terrible graphics, and really. so did EQ1.. but the players are what made it what it was.. this new generation has lost much of the imagination and creativity one has come to expect out of MMO players... they treat these games like they are the next Halo title.. MMO's are still "roleplaying" games.. but sadly noone plays the "roles". I remember when these games used to be marketed as a way for you to escape reality and be someone else for a while. Now its just a novelty.
I don't think it matters what game you play. Until the players get some imagination, all MMO's are going to seem redundant.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
As I see it, the problem is not with who prefers PvP verses who prefers PvE. From the players perspective, most would like a game that did both well and does not force either on the player.
The issue is the developer perspective. PvE is much more costly in the long run. If you could build a rich enough world and set the players lose on each other to provide their own objectives and content, you'd have a nice closed system that once built, could sustain itself for along time. By wisely placing needed resources you have the necessary conflict to keep things going.
With PvE, you have to satisfy an endless need for new content. An adventurer will quickly gooble up any fixed content you provide. You don't really have conflict. Instead you have obstacles to overcome. Once overcome, you move on and seek more. Hopping over that same obstacle over and over is not fun for most players and since the AI is not smart enough, the developers have to step in and add more or change what is already there.
Developers have done a very poor job of solving the PvE problem. They don't want to spend money to try to outpace the content appetite of the players. What they do is add stuff like raiding to try to hold a large number of players with minimal effort. Or they tell adventurers to change their minds in the end (endgame) and play PvP.
I don't think the problem will be solved until developers take the time to develope tools that will take content development out of the hands of the technical savy and make it easy for anyone with a great imagination to easily add new content quickly. That will great reduce the cost and time to feed the appetite of the PvE orientated adventurer.
I think of all the companies out there, Turbine provides the best case study of how difficult it is to keep up with the players need for content. They have provided more consistant new content to their games for longer than any other company than I am aware of.
Turbine is constantly hindered by the inability of their live teams (ongoing content teams) to overcome the problems of providing on-going content given the technical issues of working with "old" code and the limitations of the software designed just a few years before.
Basically, until more work is done on the software engineering aspects of world building, we are stuck with the insufficient games we are getting today. The current game companies seem to concerned about putting out a game within a short time than with buiding the "game building" technology they need.
However the good thing is that this means there is great opportunity for new small companys to enter to concentrate on creating the building blocks without needing to worry about building a game. To me, this is the true "next generation". It will be when we see a lot of small companies building the tools and the larger companies building the worlds with flexible, fast tools. Then outpacing the need for new content will be possible. Imagination can flourish and we'll all be happy campers whether PvP or PvE.
First, the number show that about 10% of MMO players play for PVP. Ok, good for them. There are PVP games out there, and more on the way (Conan, etc.). I even wish them a better PVP game soon. What I'd like to know is why do the vast majority of players seeking a great PVE game have to put up with the boring Grind games? We find ourselves buying the game, playing for a month or two and then realizing that this is just another endlss grind with no real adventure. The answer I've heard to this is that if you want a solo role-playing game, go play one. But what if I want a group role-playing game? What this very web site is named, an MMORPG? Are you telling me that with all the great game desingers out there that not one of them can make a role-playing game even as good as Oblivion or Morrowwind (and I think of these as barely decent, yet vastly superior to what is offered in MMO games in terms of game play). I don't want to stop PVP players from getting the fun they want in their games (MMOPKGs) but why is it that publishers have to give us MMORPG fans such incredtibly stupid game play? if I get another 'take this to Bob' or 'bring me 35 wolf fangs' task (I can't bring myself to call them Quests) I'm going to fall over in boredom. I'm so tired of buying each game that comes out only to find out it is more of the same crappy game play. Please, Publishers, enough with the excuses, have some balls and back a game developer that is willing to make a real game, not a clone of the same boring crap.
I call them "jobs" instead of quests.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
In my opinion..
in a persistent world such as an MMO exists..
much like our own world.. we do not always get along, and therefore must "fight" amongst ourselves to settle our differences.
so yes, PVP is required IMO as part of any MMO that deems itself its own "world".
PVP much like PVE should have "Reasons" for it to be done.. not just random "hey I can gank you' (even though that is fun)
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
As I see it, the problem is not with who prefers PvP verses who prefers PvE. From the players perspective, most would like a game that did both well and does not force either on the player. The issue is the developer perspective. PvE is much more costly in the long run. If you could build a rich enough world and set the players lose on each other to provide their own objectives and content, you'd have a nice closed system that once built, could sustain itself for along time. By wisely placing needed resources you have the necessary conflict to keep things going. With PvE, you have to satisfy an endless need for new content. An adventurer will quickly gooble up any fixed content you provide. You don't really have conflict. Instead you have obstacles to overcome. Once overcome, you move on and seek more. Hopping over that same obstacle over and over is not fun for most players and since the AI is not smart enough, the developers have to step in and add more or change what is already there. Developers have done a very poor job of solving the PvE problem. They don't want to spend money to try to outpace the content appetite of the players. What they do is add stuff like raiding to try to hold a large number of players with minimal effort. Or they tell adventurers to change their minds in the end (endgame) and play PvP. I don't think the problem will be solved until developers take the time to develope tools that will take content development out of the hands of the technical savy and make it easy for anyone with a great imagination to easily add new content quickly. That will great reduce the cost and time to feed the appetite of the PvE orientated adventurer. I think of all the companies out there, Turbine provides the best case study of how difficult it is to keep up with the players need for content. They have provided more consistant new content to their games for longer than any other company than I am aware of. Turbine is constantly hindered by the inability of their live teams (ongoing content teams) to overcome the problems of providing on-going content given the technical issues of working with "old" code and the limitations of the software designed just a few years before. Basically, until more work is done on the software engineering aspects of world building, we are stuck with the insufficient games we are getting today. The current game companies seem to concerned about putting out a game within a short time than with buiding the "game building" technology they need. However the good thing is that this means there is great opportunity for new small companys to enter to concentrate on creating the building blocks without needing to worry about building a game. To me, this is the true "next generation". It will be when we see a lot of small companies building the tools and the larger companies building the worlds with flexible, fast tools. Then outpacing the need for new content will be possible. Imagination can flourish and we'll all be happy campers whether PvP or PvE.
I beleve you are correct. Some small company is going to have to take the risks that a large company won't, and build the tools necessary to put the creation of content into the hands of non-tech people... game builders.
The depth of content I'm looking for isn't easy to make, and because it isn't easy most developers won't attempt it (and most publishers wouldn't back that attempt). Some development company has to take the risk and test the waters to see if better content has a market large enough to sustain the game. I believe there are plenty of players out there who would enjoy more in depth game play content. I certainly would, as would all the players I personally know.
Now, after those tools are finished, I'm not sure that the same developer couldn't use them to create a game themselves and reap the rewards of their work. I wish whoever attempts this well.
All the peoples which think PvE content is "costier to developp", I disagree.
Now, if everything has to be innovative, it will be costly. But raiding is not innovative, PvP content is not innovative, so why when it come to PvE grouping does it absolutely have to be innovative?
Your argument doesn't hold water. PvE grouping can be just as innovative or as un-inovative as raiding/PvP and cost exactly the same... and it will appeal to MORE players than raiding or PvP can, even combined together.
CoX already prove my point. The RSF/STF/LGTF are appealing to a LOT more players than the Hamidon, the RiktiWarships and all the PvP zones combined together. The warship + Hamidon require a LOT more work than these 3 TFs togethers, and the PvP content require more work than all 3 TFs + 2 raiding encounters (to have a fair comparaison, should use only the last PvP zone, as it is the endgame content for PvP, the other PvP zones have to be compared to regular TFs spreaded all over the level, even thinking of comparing the popularity is silly, TFs are done days-in days-out, while the PvP zones are all ghostowns). Debating it is silly.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
this is not the same generation of people who played EQ1 and UO.. there are a few hear and there.. but for the most part alot of the people playing mmo's now never ever played either of those 2 games. They don't know what it "used" to be like. The thing is.. the "game" is just a stage..like a play has a stage.. mmo's have a "stage" in which everything happens.
Even though the devs do dictate much of what goes on, on their stage.. its up to the players to user their imaginations to get the most out of the world created for them. The problem today is, eye candy and phat loot are the only 2 things anyone looks at anymore. Noone explores the world, noone thinks of new ways to do things, noone goes out looking for new friends and comrades, there is no adventure. And WoW is not really the cause of it. WoW is a very well designed game, and world... but the players are the ones lacking. They have no imagination.
UO had terrible graphics, and really. so did EQ1.. but the players are what made it what it was.. this new generation has lost much of the imagination and creativity one has come to expect out of MMO players... they treat these games like they are the next Halo title.. MMO's are still "roleplaying" games.. but sadly noone plays the "roles". I remember when these games used to be marketed as a way for you to escape reality and be someone else for a while. Now its just a novelty.
I don't think it matters what game you play. Until the players get some imagination, all MMO's are going to seem redundant.
=============
Raystanz hit the nail on the head. It is the players not the devs. Loved this post.
The masses play for loots not content, the masses play for the PKs and bragging rights over the next boss dead, not to be part of a community or a world to escape in to or to role play. I always loved how people playing WoW would slam on the role players, even though WoW is marketed as an mmoRPG.
WoW feeds the masses, the masses bring in money, Blizz is happy.
Comments
The perfect and obvious solution to this problem is Optional PvP.
People interested can kill each other all day long and may they enjoy themselves doing it.
People not interested can still quest and socialize and craft, etc. without having to worry about getting ganked by a bored level capped player with nothing better to do than look for victims in the newbie zone.
I still don't understand why games force players to PVP; having it as an 'optional' thing hurts NO ONE ..by optional I mean guild vs. guild, tacital pvp, siege pvp, pvp zones (that have nothing whatsoever but pvp ...no special gear, no quest requires you to go there, etc.) flag pvp, pvp arenas, duels....the only people who argue against an optional PVP element are the people who want victims. And who cares what they think? ;P They can't have fun unless they are ruining someone else's fun, why does the industry as of late seem to cater to this group? Is this where the genre is headed?
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
I'm sure there are plenty of PVP players who want that system improved as well.
Who said I could write the perfect quest? I offered to write a simple quest that I would enjoy playing if one player wrote down the details of the best quest he played in WoW. He doesn't even have to come up with it, just write down what he played and thought was so 'Great'. Perhaps it will be great, and perhaps mine won't be as good. I'm willing to compare.
you don't need to write one just give an example of what you considered a perfect quest.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
It amazes me how you people keep trying to make this post an argument about PVP and RPG when even the title clearly states "Why argue for PVP or PVE". I've acknowledged PVP as a viable fan base, and though the ratios I've heard may be right or wrong, that really doesn't matter in this discussion. Let me put this to rest once again, whether you want PVP mixed with your RPG options, or just want RPG, it doesn't affect the fact that the RPG elements of the current MMO games are about sixth grade level entertainment. Collect ten rat tails, come on, that's what you think a good RPG quest should be about?As to players who can't figure out how to play a decent quest, that's not my problem. I have to believe that there are enough intelligent people out there to back a good game, otherwise everyone in the world would play checkers, and no one would play chess. Everyone would watch children's comics, and no one would go to see a good movie. If we only make games for idiots, what does that say about us all?
That's odd, because your entire post, title included is laced with comparison of PVP and PVE. If all you were trying to discuss was why PVE sucks in current games, why even mention PVP?
Better yet, why not tell us what you think would be an example of a good PVE quest, if you think it is so horribly lacking?
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
am i right to guess the main game of discussion is wow? alot of this pvp/pve discussion stems from wow related point of view. after all theres been alot of games that have integrated pvp and pve very well. eve, lineage 2 etc. they just don't have as much content as wow granted now that wow has shown the way maybe developers can actually take the two and combine them. wow is blizzards first mmo you have to remember and so the pvp/pve aspect of the game was something they overlooked. but i bet their next game will be very well done pvp/pve. so people can just stop arguing go buy a console until something comes along you like. i did, it beats grinding hours on end for nothing, raid/pvp/farming whatever, its grinding at the end of the day. even blizzard said as much in their gdc discussions. "got to keep the gamers coming back"
Few things...
There's really no way to know who's PvP or PvE and how many of each there are. In the beginning there were only a few hundred thousand of us, and we all came from "similar backgrounds," (read: major geeks) and it was clear around that time a majority favored PvE.
The MMO market is now 10 to 20 times larger, or more, than it was in the late 90's. Many millions of people have only come on board in the past few years. Who's to say these people are PvP'ers or PvE'ers when they have no real point of perspective in the genre? PvE centered games are probably all most of them know. You might hear them say "What's a 'UO'?" Get the idea?
As far as grinding goes- that's part of the appeal for developers. What's great about PvE games is that people who play them will go through all the content, get all the kewl stuff, max out, and get bored. They'll then want another grind to burn through, thus ensuring continued work for the previous developers.
If anyone made a great dynamic sandbox game, be it PvP or not, a lot of people would be out of work considering many of us could play such a game over the course of a decade with little desire for anything else. I believe that was the original purpose of MMORPGs. They weren't meant to be as disposable with little replay value; but they were perverted to be that way because of the misguided rantings of the original carebears, and the greed of folks who are running big business operations. I'm not saying every individual developer at every level is just a greedy snot... but I'm sure none of them dislike job security either.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
You know.. the games aren't the problem right?
its the players...
this is not the same generation of people who played EQ1 and UO.. there are a few hear and there.. but for the most part alot of the people playing mmo's now never ever played either of those 2 games. They don't know what it "used" to be like. The thing is.. the "game" is just a stage..like a play has a stage.. mmo's have a "stage" in which everything happens.
Even though the devs do dictate much of what goes on, on their stage.. its up to the players to user their imaginations to get the most out of the world created for them. The problem today is, eye candy and phat loot are the only 2 things anyone looks at anymore. Noone explores the world, noone thinks of new ways to do things, noone goes out looking for new friends and comrades, there is no adventure. And WoW is not really the cause of it. WoW is a very well designed game, and world... but the players are the ones lacking. They have no imagination.
UO had terrible graphics, and really. so did EQ1.. but the players are what made it what it was.. this new generation has lost much of the imagination and creativity one has come to expect out of MMO players... they treat these games like they are the next Halo title.. MMO's are still "roleplaying" games.. but sadly noone plays the "roles". I remember when these games used to be marketed as a way for you to escape reality and be someone else for a while. Now its just a novelty.
I don't think it matters what game you play. Until the players get some imagination, all MMO's are going to seem redundant.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
As I see it, the problem is not with who prefers PvP verses who prefers PvE. From the players perspective, most would like a game that did both well and does not force either on the player.
The issue is the developer perspective. PvE is much more costly in the long run. If you could build a rich enough world and set the players lose on each other to provide their own objectives and content, you'd have a nice closed system that once built, could sustain itself for along time. By wisely placing needed resources you have the necessary conflict to keep things going.
With PvE, you have to satisfy an endless need for new content. An adventurer will quickly gooble up any fixed content you provide. You don't really have conflict. Instead you have obstacles to overcome. Once overcome, you move on and seek more. Hopping over that same obstacle over and over is not fun for most players and since the AI is not smart enough, the developers have to step in and add more or change what is already there.
Developers have done a very poor job of solving the PvE problem. They don't want to spend money to try to outpace the content appetite of the players. What they do is add stuff like raiding to try to hold a large number of players with minimal effort. Or they tell adventurers to change their minds in the end (endgame) and play PvP.
I don't think the problem will be solved until developers take the time to develope tools that will take content development out of the hands of the technical savy and make it easy for anyone with a great imagination to easily add new content quickly. That will great reduce the cost and time to feed the appetite of the PvE orientated adventurer.
I think of all the companies out there, Turbine provides the best case study of how difficult it is to keep up with the players need for content. They have provided more consistant new content to their games for longer than any other company than I am aware of.
Turbine is constantly hindered by the inability of their live teams (ongoing content teams) to overcome the problems of providing on-going content given the technical issues of working with "old" code and the limitations of the software designed just a few years before.
Basically, until more work is done on the software engineering aspects of world building, we are stuck with the insufficient games we are getting today. The current game companies seem to concerned about putting out a game within a short time than with buiding the "game building" technology they need.
However the good thing is that this means there is great opportunity for new small companys to enter to concentrate on creating the building blocks without needing to worry about building a game. To me, this is the true "next generation". It will be when we see a lot of small companies building the tools and the larger companies building the worlds with flexible, fast tools. Then outpacing the need for new content will be possible. Imagination can flourish and we'll all be happy campers whether PvP or PvE.
I call them "jobs" instead of quests.
In my opinion..
in a persistent world such as an MMO exists..
much like our own world.. we do not always get along, and therefore must "fight" amongst ourselves to settle our differences.
so yes, PVP is required IMO as part of any MMO that deems itself its own "world".
PVP much like PVE should have "Reasons" for it to be done.. not just random "hey I can gank you' (even though that is fun)
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
The depth of content I'm looking for isn't easy to make, and because it isn't easy most developers won't attempt it (and most publishers wouldn't back that attempt). Some development company has to take the risk and test the waters to see if better content has a market large enough to sustain the game. I believe there are plenty of players out there who would enjoy more in depth game play content. I certainly would, as would all the players I personally know.
Now, after those tools are finished, I'm not sure that the same developer couldn't use them to create a game themselves and reap the rewards of their work. I wish whoever attempts this well.
All the peoples which think PvE content is "costier to developp", I disagree.
Now, if everything has to be innovative, it will be costly. But raiding is not innovative, PvP content is not innovative, so why when it come to PvE grouping does it absolutely have to be innovative?
Your argument doesn't hold water. PvE grouping can be just as innovative or as un-inovative as raiding/PvP and cost exactly the same... and it will appeal to MORE players than raiding or PvP can, even combined together.
CoX already prove my point. The RSF/STF/LGTF are appealing to a LOT more players than the Hamidon, the RiktiWarships and all the PvP zones combined together. The warship + Hamidon require a LOT more work than these 3 TFs togethers, and the PvP content require more work than all 3 TFs + 2 raiding encounters (to have a fair comparaison, should use only the last PvP zone, as it is the endgame content for PvP, the other PvP zones have to be compared to regular TFs spreaded all over the level, even thinking of comparing the popularity is silly, TFs are done days-in days-out, while the PvP zones are all ghostowns). Debating it is silly.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Raystanz post:
You know.. the games aren't the problem right?
its the players...
this is not the same generation of people who played EQ1 and UO.. there are a few hear and there.. but for the most part alot of the people playing mmo's now never ever played either of those 2 games. They don't know what it "used" to be like. The thing is.. the "game" is just a stage..like a play has a stage.. mmo's have a "stage" in which everything happens.
Even though the devs do dictate much of what goes on, on their stage.. its up to the players to user their imaginations to get the most out of the world created for them. The problem today is, eye candy and phat loot are the only 2 things anyone looks at anymore. Noone explores the world, noone thinks of new ways to do things, noone goes out looking for new friends and comrades, there is no adventure. And WoW is not really the cause of it. WoW is a very well designed game, and world... but the players are the ones lacking. They have no imagination.
UO had terrible graphics, and really. so did EQ1.. but the players are what made it what it was.. this new generation has lost much of the imagination and creativity one has come to expect out of MMO players... they treat these games like they are the next Halo title.. MMO's are still "roleplaying" games.. but sadly noone plays the "roles". I remember when these games used to be marketed as a way for you to escape reality and be someone else for a while. Now its just a novelty.
I don't think it matters what game you play. Until the players get some imagination, all MMO's are going to seem redundant.
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Raystanz hit the nail on the head. It is the players not the devs. Loved this post.
The masses play for loots not content, the masses play for the PKs and bragging rights over the next boss dead, not to be part of a community or a world to escape in to or to role play. I always loved how people playing WoW would slam on the role players, even though WoW is marketed as an mmoRPG.
WoW feeds the masses, the masses bring in money, Blizz is happy.
The End.