Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
EU and Greek state sponsoring Darkfall
A Darkfall thread about it.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=50344&page=3
One informative reply in thread.
[QUOTE] from Madrandomize. Ok after some searching i found that the 3rd icon on the bottom right cornet of the www.darkfallonline.com site is : (drumroll)x3
Is a bussiness funding state organisation for the development of companies.
It has its own website which is www.infosoc.gr and a plane translation of the name is "society of information" .(κοινων?α της πληροφορ?ας)in greek.
The logo displayed here is maybe a little old or very new,either way google "infosoc" at google images to see it.
Its part of a bigger program of funding small to middle companies as a way to make them develop faster on certain specialisation areas,also 75% of those funds come straight from EU and 25% from the greek state.
As i continued my research i found that back in 2005 a similar program called "antagonism" (ανταγωνιστικ?τητα in greek) had funded with 265.236 euro the company aventurine for developing an advanced 3d virtual engine as you can see here
http://www.sioufas.gr/epikairothta_13_4_05epan432.htm <--- its in greek ,scroll down to see the sum of money and search the name "aventurine". [/QUOTE]
Another [QUOTE] from Gunther theBlack, same thread.
The Minister of Development Mr. Dimitris Sioufas, upon the recommendation of the Secretary-General for Research and Technology Professor Ioannis Tsoukalas, signed rulings which promotes and develops industrial research and fostering innovation, with a grant projects will be carried out in Greece by businesses to start their productive and commercial activity. Specifically, the incorporation of approved funding 17 proposals in Phase Action 4.3.2 «Development Programme for Industrial Research and Technology for New Enterprises (PAVE-NE)» total budget of EUR 3,366,804.
The programme is firmly in Business Competitiveness Program «» (OP), concerns a Greek enterprises in all sectors of the economy, which have not completed five years since its establishment. This action reinforces the process of finding new methods to transfer knowledge and research in high-traditional industries by helping to improve the productivity of enterprises and the production of new or improved products or services with high added value. To achieve the objectives of the Project 4.3.2. Given the opportunity, part of the project, run by subcontractors Laboratories Universities, Technical Colleges, by the Public Research Centre, from the center of innovation ΕΟΜΜΕΧ Company and Industrial Research and Technological Development.
The aim of this programme is to improve the competitiveness and enlargement of share of the domestic and international market new businesses less than 5 years, while contributing to the creation of new jobs in Development and with the employment of new staff in enterprises.
The percentage of private participation ranges from 40% to 55% depending on the nature of the proposed research (industrial - sported works), while public expenditure is co-funded by National and Community Resources. Staff salary costs are funded (existing and new), research equipment, consumables and travel.
Specifically, the funding concerns to the following projects
Aventurine part translated;
Research, design and development of advanced machinery shading capabilities virtual reality [/QUOTE]
Seems like a good way to easier secure the development and release of Darkfall.
Comments
Very interesting. Hope that'll shut some trolls up, but I'm expecting some counter arguments honestly
ok, so if I'm to read this correctly... and I might not be... This is a one time lump sum for companies established for less then 5 years to receive once to pay any and all operating cost for the company.
Unless the translation is buggy, and it very well might be, Aventurine has received roughly 265k Euros to covery Salary, Travel, and Expendables.
The groups AROUND Aventurine in the list appear to be Educational Institutions, who are probably far more in need of the funding then they are.
265k Euros... I'll admit, I do not know the cost of living over in Greece. One of you real DFO fanatics might know though, the average cost of living in the City where it is being developed, the number of employees that Aventurine employs.
This hardly seems like a way to say it's fully funded by the Government though. Especially since it says the funding is between 40 to 55%, meaning this is merely a Tech Grant by the local established Government to garner business.
When opening my studio, I could've gotten more then 2 million over the course of 4 years had I opened it in states desiring more Technical industry to move in.
While yes, I believe it's worth mentioning the Greek Government is doing it's part to help foster greater technology within it's borders, I wouldn't go around touting it as "Being Funded by the Government".
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
However I don't think the Greek government would take too kindly to having their money poured into a vaporware product, even if it is a (relatively) small amount. It just seems to be a good sign for DF, if not necessarily that the government is now supporting the game and they're going to make it the highest budgeted MMO by a factor of 10 and that beta will release next week.
Ask and you shall recieve.ok, so if I'm to read this correctly... and I might not be... This is a one time lump sum for companies established for less then 5 years to receive once to pay any and all operating cost for the company.
Unless the translation is buggy, and it very well might be, Aventurine has received roughly 265k Euros to covery Salary, Travel, and Expendables.
The groups AROUND Aventurine in the list appear to be Educational Institutions, who are probably far more in need of the funding then they are.
265k Euros... I'll admit, I do not know the cost of living over in Greece. One of you real DFO fanatics might know though, the average cost of living in the City where it is being developed, the number of employees that Aventurine employs.
This hardly seems like a way to say it's fully funded by the Government though. Especially since it says the funding is between 40 to 55%, meaning this is merely a Tech Grant by the local established Government to garner business.
When opening my studio, I could've gotten more then 2 million over the course of 4 years had I opened it in states desiring more Technical industry to move in.
While yes, I believe it's worth mentioning the Greek Government is doing it's part to help foster greater technology within it's borders, I wouldn't go around touting it as "Being Funded by the Government".
Thats one paycheck. They probably got alot more of those paychecks during the years. And its the EU that is there mayor sponsor, not the Greek Government. EU have a shitload of money and its nice they distribute some of them on good projects like Darkfall.
Everyone knows Aventurine is really funded by Libyans.
But this does sound like a nice program by the Greek govt to help fund local firms....nice to see it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Definately a nice program. We have a few here in America to boost local Technology in some more... less desirable... places to put your business.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
You guys do realize that vast majority of the countries in EU are socialist right? If Aventurine received any money it would probably be in form of a grant, this is a private company in EU that is taking advantage of business grant provided by the EUropean Union.
The same thing happened after that hacker stole the Darkfall beta client he called me up on the telephone to brag about how awesome he was and how awesome playing Darkfall Beta was, but then suddenly he started screaming down the telephone THEY FOUND ME,I DON'T KNOW HOW BUT THEY FOUND ME, THE LIBYANS!, then the line went dead.
Turns out that apparently as soon as the developers at Aventurine had realized the Beta client had been stolen they quickly got in touch with there contacts in the Libya's Jamahiriya Security Organization who rapidly orchestrated a clandestine espionage operation to track and then locate the criminal master mind.
It was latter revealed to me by an inside source that in a daring daylight raid members of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya special forces disguised as Dutch police officers stormed the perpetrators residence and retrieved the stolen super secret Darkfall Beta version before turning over the suspect to the appropriate judiciary’s.
A summery execution on the spot for the vile evil doer was considered but it was decided that this could possibly cause an international incident and the Libyans decided they have had quite enough of those already.
Apparently the Libyans consider Darkfall and Aventurine to be vital strategic assets for there Nations continued economic development, and will stop at nothing to protect them.
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE LIBYAN CONNECTION! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
You do realize it takes a hell of a lot more money than 260 grand to do anything worthwhile right?
The only thing this proves , if true , is that Aventurine isn't the big time company most of the crazy fanboys always believed. Of course most commen sense people already knew that...
Living off of hand out money grants and trying to build a MMORPG = not good sign.
What kind of workers can you hire relying on state grants?? Not professionals that's for sure.
You do realize it takes a hell of a lot more money than 260 grand to do anything worthwhile right?
The only thing this proves , if true , is that Aventurine isn't the big time company most of the crazy fanboys always believed. Of course most commen sense people already knew that...
Living off of hand out money grants and trying to build a MMORPG = not good sign.
What kind of workers can you hire relying on state grants?? Not professionals that's for sure.
http://www.davidsaber.com/new/david_saber_3d_character_animator_xsi_generalist_resume.txt
This one look proffesional enough for me.
That guy was a freelancer. He wasn't even a full time hired employee.
Either way who cares about a modeler? Artists are a dime a dozen. They are everywhere..
What you really need when building games like this are really good programmers. And a professional programmer is going to cost upwards of $100,000 / year salary. Just for one person.
Not to mention it's not even easy to get good programmers because all of them are hired by the big , top paying studios. If they are telented , they go where the real $ is.
If you can't afford to pay top dollar , you're not going to get top talent which obviously means you're less likely to make a good product. It's just as simple as that.
But, to be honest, you can find good programmers who will do a great job for a moderate price. They need to believe in what they're working on. My lead engine programmer only costs me $50k, and he's worked on 3 different MMO platforms and 2 SP/MP engines.
Why did he take a paycut and come work for me? Cause we worked together on the design, he believes in his work and his ideas. He WANTED to.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Personaly I don't care what they have done in the past. If they manage to deliver what is promised I'm satisfied.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
Ok then let's say you can actually find real good programmer to work for you for 50k / year. How many of those 50k per year programmers are you going to need on a team to make a game like Darkfall? AT LEAST 8??? probably many more.
World of Warcraft had 20+ programmers and Darkfall looks like it has more features than WoW had..
Let's be ridiculously optimistic and say 5... 5 x 50k = $250,000 / year for just programmers.
Their grant already went bye bye on just 5 people in one year.
So unless they are being infused with like 1 million dollars a year in free grant money (which is NOT happening) they either have people working for peanuts there or are working for free...
Either way as more and more info get's spilled out it's pretty clear to see that they are a small time start up game dev studio trying to pull off a huge undertaking with very limited resources at best...
Ok then let's say you can actually find a real good programmer to work for you for 50k / year. How many of those 50k per year programmers are you going to need on a team to make a game like Darkfall? AT LEAST 8??? probably many more.
let's be optimistic and say 5... 5 x 50k = $250,000 / year for just programmers.
Their grant already went bye bye on just 5 people in one year.
So unless they are being infused with like 1 million dollars a year in free grant money (which is NOT happening) they have people working for peanuts there or are working for free...
Either way as more and more info get's spilled out it's pretty clear to see that they are nothing more than a small time start up game dev studio trying to pull off a huge undertaking with very limited resources at best..
I'd say more then 8. I have 8 planned for my company, and it's not a MMO...As I've previously stated, it also depends heavily on the Cost of Living for where you're making your game. For instance, the Cost of Living for here is 30k/year to be comfortable. I have artists working for 25-30, programmers from 40-50.
Had I been in say... California, I'd have to have artists working for 40-50, and Programmers working for 65+.
So, does anybody know the Cost of Living for the location in Greece where Aventurine setup shop?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
With all these talk about Aventurins economics, are we getting somewere? We lack information for sure, but is it relevant for us to know how much Darkfalls deveopers gets in salary?. I can't say I know how much any developer gets in any company.
They have sponsors and a 27mil loan. But how they choose to consume it I've don't know.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
They don't have a 27 mill loan.. They issued a convertible bond loan which means they put up convertible bonds for purchase...obviously to try and raise money. no where did it say they actually sold any of those bonds to investors or to anyone.
I'll wish them luck because no one likes failing.. but the odds are this isn't going to happen. They bit off way more then they can chew.
Do you have a link to this "27 million loan" information?
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
He was a fulltime hired employee btw NOVEMBER 2006 TO AUGUST 2007 as it says in his CV-
[QUOTE] NOVEMBER 2006 TO AUGUST 2007: DARKFALL, online multi player role playing video game
Work place: Aventurine, Athens, Greece, http://www.aventurine.gr/ .
Position: 3d character animator.
Tasks: animated humanoid and 4 legged creatures, skinned characters, animated particles for explosions.
Softwares used: 3dsMax 8 and especially the Character Studio part, XSI 6.
Client: Darkfall’s game publisher, game sold worldwide (see http://www.darkfallonline.com/ ). [/QUOTE]
Where does it says he wasnt a fulltime hired employee?
Aye as you write, who cares about modelers that is one important part of a development group that finishes game? Who cares about them, hahahahahaha. Youre so funny, keep it coming.
And, of course, this David Saber is just one of many that helped out on Darkfall.
And you can read in this Darkfall advertising that they offer competitive salary and bonuses, so much for that. Anything else?
http://www.aventurine.gr/jobs.html
But, to be honest, you can find good programmers who will do a great job for a moderate price. They need to believe in what they're working on. My lead engine programmer only costs me $50k, and he's worked on 3 different MMO platforms and 2 SP/MP engines.
Why did he take a paycut and come work for me? Cause we worked together on the design, he believes in his work and his ideas. He WANTED to.
Darkfall pay competitive salary and bonuses.
http://www.aventurine.gr/jobs.html
Like I said... here I can get an artist for 25-30. That's competitive... programmers 40-50... that's competitive. An artist or Programmer in California would cost me 1.5x as much.
What's "Competitive" for their region? Since your link contains no such data or information.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I take it someone is using a online translator?, being Greek & reading the article i think someone got the direction of the articles slightly wrong, sorry.
As a Greek speaker could you please give your impression or a better translation of the meaning of this information please?
Apparently it's going up now, but it's cheap still, way below the normal costs in Western/Northern Europe. Cost of living was the main reason Razorwax team moved to Greece instead of working remotely from Norway. I'm from another EU country with low costs & salaries, and a programmer job with 10k euro ($15k) a year is an ok one for starters, and according to google at least, would be sufficient to live in Greece. Of course a senior programmer in a good IT company can earn 20k+ euro a year, but we already know that DFO devs don't have very high salaries.
What's "Competitive"?Like I said... here I can get an artist for 25-30. That's competitive... programmers 40-50... that's competitive. An artist or Programmer in California would cost me 1.5x as much.
What's "Competitive" for their region? Since your link contains no such data or information.
Competitive is competitive. Nothing hard to understand that word. Who do Darkfall compete with? They compete with other game development companies on a open market so Its competitive on the market of course. What else would it be?
Greece is a way cheaper country to live in as for example my country Sweden. Original development team was from Norway and its very similar to Sweden. So moving to Greece for developing Darkfall was as i see it a good move.