I havent read much of this thread so forgive me if this has been said.
But the biggest problem with MMorpgs is the lack of innovation.
Devs have been more interested in finding ways to keep us playing rather than trying to make a game that is truely fun to play. Games are for fun, not for work.
What worries me is the dumbing down of the industry over the last few years. Look at other types of games, like platform: there are games for kids, there are games for adults, there are games for teens. And yet, MMos still try to make a game for everyone. Why? In an effort to please everyone, they make a game that is non-commital and end up pleasing few.
Let there be PvE games, let there be voluntary PvP games and let there be brutal PvP games(just 3 examples of diff types of games.) But what there shouldnt be id a PvE game with PvP servers because quite honestly it doesnt work.Games cant be balanced and developed for both.
I dont play EVE anymore, but I always admired the way they did things. They say "this is our game, this is how it is, it isnt for everyone." Contrast that to what most large scale releases do. They say " please come try our game, you will love it, we put stuff in there for everyone!!"
Please devs, if you see this. Try new stuff, get rid of grinds and timesinks, and dont be afraid to challenge us. Its not about pleasing everyone but making a good game. Your not going to get every customer and if you try to make a game that does get every customer your going to get none.
The next gen mmo's are redundant and routine and have a lack of inspiring things too do in them. Most focus on becoming better then Wow and focusing only on that. Many new mmo's are cutting parts out of mmo's such as crafting/player homes and other sand box idea's
I dont play EVE anymore, but I always admired the way they did things. They say "this is our game, this is how it is, it isnt for everyone." Contrast that to what most large scale releases do. They say " please come try our game, you will love it, we put stuff in there for everyone!!" Please devs, if you see this. Try new stuff, get rid of grinds and timesinks, and dont be afraid to challenge us. Its not about pleasing everyone but making a good game. Your not going to get every customer and if you try to make a game that does get every customer your going to get none.
You priase Eve and then complain about time sinks and grinds;) The biggest time sinks ever created in a MMO are Eve's skill training and travel/movement system.
Since when is it a problem to make a game loads of people enjoy anyhow? Oh thats right. It would make it popular or , gasp...FUN. Then normal people will play and we can't have that. Normal people are evil and raped the genre, tearing it away from the nerd elite=) Only the nerds know a good game when they play one. The rest of us don't have a clue, right?
By the way, if a game pleases a lot of people, and we know exactly which game that is, its in fact a very good game esspecially when all the critics agree with all the people playing it. Compared to something like Eve where very few play it and critics basically consider it average or not even worth the time to review. It seems the mark of a good game for some people is how few people actually enjoy it. I guess it gives them some feeling of being a part of some special group of people who can somehow appreciate what the rest of us can't;)
The next gen mmo's are redundant and routine and have a lack of inspiring things too do in them. Most focus on becoming better then Wow and focusing only on that. Many new mmo's are cutting parts out of mmo's such as crafting/player homes and other sand box idea's
Aye
Infact many of the MMOs being made these days have tried to stay away from the whole sandbox feel, going for more of a leashed type gameplay. A lot of people associate sandbox with boring or difficult. While others, like myself, like to feel free to discover our own paths in a game.
There are people who like to have a ton of options for gameplay (Crafting, Socializing, PvE, PvP, Lore Finding, etc) while others feel overwhelmed by things to do. Its sad because both styles can exist in the same game, its just companies would rather stick to the known, trusted, working formula. They see a game like WoW that offers such a basic game raking in the money, so they will follow suit.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I dont play EVE anymore, but I always admired the way they did things. They say "this is our game, this is how it is, it isnt for everyone." Contrast that to what most large scale releases do. They say " please come try our game, you will love it, we put stuff in there for everyone!!" Please devs, if you see this. Try new stuff, get rid of grinds and timesinks, and dont be afraid to challenge us. Its not about pleasing everyone but making a good game. Your not going to get every customer and if you try to make a game that does get every customer your going to get none.
You priase Eve and then complain about time sinks and grinds;) The biggest time sinks ever created in a MMO are Eve's skill training and travel/movement system.
Since when is it a problem to make a game loads of people enjoy anyhow? Oh thats right. It would make it popular or , gasp...FUN. Then normal people will play and we can't have that. Normal people are evil and raped the genre, tearing it away from the nerd elite=) Only the nerds know a good game when they play one. The rest of us don't have a clue, right?
By the way, if a game pleases a lot of people, and we know exactly which game that is, its in fact a very good game esspecially when all the critics agree with all the people playing it. Compared to something like Eve where very few play it and critics basically consider it average or not even worth the time to review. It seems the mark of a good game for some people is how few people actually enjoy it. I guess it gives them some feeling of being a part of some special group of people who can somehow appreciate what the rest of us can't;)
IM sorry, Ill explain myself better.
I commend EVEs devs because they made a game thats brutal PvP. They said from day 1 thats how it was and they have stuck to it. They balance the the game, quite effectively, knowing exactly this. The EVE forums get people complaining daily about the brutality of the game and the devs will quite simply say "this game isnt for everyone" because the change the people are asking for goes directly against the design of the game. The opposite of this would be UO. Anyone old enough to remember when it was released this game was advertised as brutal and lawless, and it was. The game came out, people bitched and moaned and basically were vocal enough to get the game changed into something that the original devs never wanted the game to be.
I do not excuse EVE for the rediculous amounts of timesinks, grinds, etc. I was simply commending them for sticking to their vision. A vision that is working for them. I completely agree that they may be the king of timesinks.
And I think you are reading way too much into what I said. I do not mind a game being vastly popular. I know you think im talking specifically about WoW but im really not. In fact, I have far more good things to say about WoW, than bad.
Im talking more specifically about other titles that couldnt figure out what they wanted to be and essentially are fizzling or fizzled because of it. Games like SWG, Vanguard, UO, DAoC, and many others. Even the most avid WoW fan would have to admit that Blizzards inability to commit to PvP or PvE creates serious balance problems for 1 or both aspects of the game. Much like DAoC classes can be extrordinarily useful in PvP and useless in PvE. If they try to address 1 aspect they end up making it unbalanced in the other. The best example I can think of is an old 1 from EQ. In the 1st few years of EQ(when I played) the Shadow Knight was the most useless class to raid or group with in PvE. Most power guilds wouldnt even bother bringing them because they simply took up raid spots and had no function. Yet oddly enough, it was BY FAR the most played class on the PvP server. People would scream for them to be balanced in PvE but the devs were hesitant because of how simply overpowered the class was in PvP.
I would rather see games commit to 1 niche and excell, much like what happens in console games. You dont see sports games try to incorporate 1st person shooter and simulation all into 1. Essentially, thats what MMorpgs try and fail to do. You hear people on this site talk about "who will the WoW killer be?" and I laugh because I'd rather the next big title coexist with WoW. EvE has nowhere near WoWs numbers yet their population continues to grow and CCP is doing quite well $ wise from the game. Why dont more people copy EvE's mold of trying to create a successful niche game rather than trying to create the "wow killer" which is exactly what they are trying to do and you can see it from thier advertising pushes.
Too much like a video game and too little like a virtual world. The RPG has been taken out of MMORPG.
I think this is certainly a big part of it. Games like WoW (I don't mean to slam it, but it's just the best example) just aren't immersive, even if you try, because the whole game is so focused on leveling up and then grinding gear.
I personally think that the huge focus on gear/items has corrupted MMORPGs. I don't know when the trend first started (eq maybe? uo?), but the idea of a person wearing 25 different pieces of magical gear, each of which enhances the most random and off-the-wall attributes of a person (pants that make you smarter, a crossbow that makes you heal more quickly, etc.) is repugnant to me.
A game like shadowbane handled gear the way I think it should be. A person wore perhaps 4-5 pieces of armor (helmet, chest, legs, arms, gloves) and a couple pieces of other magical gear (rings, necklace), and that was it. Furthermore, there was not a great variety in quality of gear available to someone at "max level". One person near the level cap's gear was most likely at least 80% of the quality of anyone else at the cap.
This not only helped even the playing field when it came to PvP, but if such a thing were implemented in a game with PvE, it would shift the focus of end game away from an endless grind/treadmill for more and more better gear, which just becomes obsolete eventually anyway, with something else. Maybe more focus on immersion in the game world, or alternate paths to success (crafting, exploration, etc. instead of just a PvP and a PvE grind), etc.
/signed
WTF is it with these helmets that make you more dextrous and boots that make you smarter? Please, just get rid of the silly grinding for gear.
Aside from being completely nonsensical, I think it gives entirely the wrong focus to the game.
What should you replace it with? Content that is fun for its own sake...
When you read fantasy novels, is the hero doing something so that he has a chance to lot on a rare-drop pair of boots that will make him heal better? Well, maybe if you are reading really crappy books but not the ones I am reading.
As someone else remarked, I think people/designers have just gotten caught up in the addictive gear-grind treadmill and are just not looking for a broader perspective.
I think one big problem with games in general is investors. They are very demanding with release dates and budgets and wind up putting too much pressure on most gaming companies.
I think it is the new community. The people that complain about how long it takes to level, having to group, having to raid/group for gear, or anything else that might take some time to do. Most of these people do not seem to know the concept of what a rpg is. It seems like they have never played DnD and other older great rpg PC games.
********************************
I think the market though is big enough now to make games directed at different audiences instead of please them all approach. You end up just providing a mediocre experience for everyone and people complain. Why not give the people like me their games that take time to level, no instances, very little soloing, no maps, no linear quest.
Then give others games that they may enjoy such as the people who like WoW with it's superfast and easy leveling by linear questing. Easy armor to obtain. How about provide the harsh pvper's with a game that suites their needs. Let's provide those who like sandbox skill based games a home.
There is no reason to say games should not be made a certain way when there are people that like different things and need to have different games. If anything we need to be complaining that they try to lump us all together into a game that tries to please us all ..that isn't going to happen. No offense but many of you in this thread have ideas that I do not find appealing whatsoever. I want EQ type games. You probably do not find them appealing but I bet you there are enough people out there to occupy the type of games we are looking for.
******************************** I think it is the new community. The people that complain about how long it takes to level, having to group, having to raid/group for gear, or anything else that might take some time to do. Most of these people do not seem to know the concept of what a rpg is. It seems like they have never played DnD and other older great rpg PC games. ******************************** I think the market though is big enough now to make games directed at different audiences instead of please them all approach. You end up just providing a mediocre experience for everyone and people complain. Why not give the people like me their games that take time to level, no instances, very little soloing, no maps, no linear quest.
Then give others games that they may enjoy such as the people who like WoW with it's superfast and easy leveling by linear questing. Easy armor to obtain. How about provide the harsh pvper's with a game that suites their needs. Let's provide those who like sandbox skill based games a home.
There is no reason to say games should not be made a certain way when there are people that like different things and need to have different games. If anything we need to be complaining that they try to lump us all together into a game that tries to please us all ..that isn't going to happen. No offense but many of you in this thread have ideas that I do not find appealing whatsoever. I want EQ type games. You probably do not find them appealing but I bet you there are enough people out there to occupy the type of games we are looking for.
/signed
I could not agree more. I prefer sandbox games to anything out there and at the moment EvE is prety much the only one.
I aslo agree with Consequence, great post, as I played EvE for over a year but stopped a few months ago. I still pay for my character incase I want to go back. I for one enjoy the Training system because it means that I do not fall behind when I go away on business or cannot log in for a week due to RL committments. What most people forget is that in EvE the level grind is actually a money grind. If you flip the money and skills over you get a better picture. Most games the higher your level the better you are but in EvE the more money you have the better you are.
If I had a choice I would want a fantasy sandbox game with a limitless skill tree that is realtime based, full PvP, player driven economy and a protection status as EvE has in levels. So when you are close to major cities the "police" protect you very qucikly and the further away you get the less protection is offered.
The biggest problem are the people, no doubt. The games are actually far better designed. But the people, even those of us who have been around since before UO make these games far worse. Not me, but we know the whiney type. Some vets just shouldn't be playing anymore, because games have evolved past what they found fun. Then there are the people who should'nt be playing this genre at all. They aren't cut out for it. The play style just isn't for them. We know those types as well. Earlier MMOs had far bigger problems than the games of today. I say this because vets who bitch about every tiny little tech issue must've had their memories erased from 8 or 9 years back, because UO, EQ and AC were tech & balance nightmares. People bitch about not enough content, yet those games had nada, zero, nothing. You sat around and camped spawn points or type in a chat bar. That was it. Players were far more forgiving and understanding or perhaps were so darn happy to playing a MMO at all, anything was good enough. Not in todays market. Those sayng MMOs are supposed to be virtual worlds are living in some fantasy alternate reality because the gamey MMOs have always been more popular and succesful. EQ blew away UO and EQ isn't any more a virtual world than WOW or LOTR is now. Theres nothing wrong with newer MMOs. Its the people that are the biggest problem.
This post should be stickied at the top of the forums,so we dont have multiple threads per day all saying the same thing over and over.
Well of course its always been the ppl, but the games have gotten 1000x easier than 10 yrs ago, and the new generation is still complaining that its too hard....sheesh give us vets a break!
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
Well of course its always been the ppl, but the games have gotten 1000x easier than 10 yrs ago, and the new generation is still complaining that its too hard....sheesh give us vets a break!
/signed.
It is not all about the graphics and sound. Gameplay and storyline are important. There is not much point doing a quest when you don't have to think.
Developers not sticking to their design plan when confronted by a vocal minority. Dumb downs, giveaways, exp bonus weekends, elimination of death penalty, ect... These actions all move MMOs into an entirely boring process that can be mastered by millions, in a move towards mass market appeal.
It seems that playing in a challenging gaming environment is just too hard for people to deal with anymore.
Yep, the games today are really beeing dumbed down. And the more MMOs i try the more insulted i get. If this continue, we will end up with the "kill" buton, a "do quest" button and a "run" button.
Why cant the game indistry challence and me by saying "we dont know if you can handle this?". Not saying it should be a becomming a fighter pilot or anything. But atleast try and make me feel something when i play. Exept the hunt for a new level.
I think the lack of innovation is the biggest problem. The average mmo player is about 33 years old and has been playing video games since atari yet the bottomline watching developers focus on gaining the most market share by making each game simple enough for any 5 year old to pick up and start playing. This leaves the more experienced player base feeling unchallenged and uninspired, their virtual achievements feel meaningless and their gameplay boring. Hey, there should be simple games for kids and casuals, but a large segment of the gaming world is being ignored because what they desire, dynamic world's, intricate storylines, balanced pvp, great graphics, are not cost effective leaving the mmo as a genre in a sort of digitalized dark age.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
Games are dumbed down, its all about money, subscriptions =cash=happy company. They dont give a rats ass about any player / FACT. WOW has high subs, but thats because any old pc can play this crap. Parenst get new pc's they pass on the old junk to lil johhny who plays wow, cause its piss easy, and thats all the pc he got can run. so companies try to emulate wows " success", they dumb down games "SOE" are real bad for this. it should take time to level, and if you die you should suffer! cry babies are the biggest problem in MMORPG'S. whiney bastards
Developers not sticking to their design plan when confronted by a vocal minority. Dumb downs, giveaways, exp bonus weekends, elimination of death penalty, ect... These actions all move MMOs into an entirely boring process that can be mastered by millions, in a move towards mass market appeal. It seems that playing in a challenging gaming environment is just too hard for people to deal with anymore.
Agreed.......hence I still play EvE from time to time. People still complain that it is too difficult. But it is still around and they have stuck to their ideas. Don't get me wrong the game has some other downsides to it but at least dying HURTS, it is straight PvP not XP based and sandbox.
Now why can't someone just make a RPG sandbox game.......please
PKing is great fun and drives away 9:10 clients if it has any teeth. 5:10 if it doesn't. Half the people at least do not want to be griefed. Create consensual PKing areas and they are ghost towns. PKers don't generally like to PK each other. Understandable since PKers are hyper-adaptive and will pick the best build every time. This leaves just skill that with inevitable lag, is reduced to almost nothing. Look, there is a certain segment of the PvP population that thinks along these lines: At 16 years old they got together with 4 of their buddies and went down to the local elementary school gym to take on 8 year olds in pickup basketball. They out rebounded, out shot, and out scored the 8 year olds, winning 64 to 8. They then went in to high school the next day and talked smack about how good they were, comparing themselves to the "Fab Five". Until you learn how to deal with players that have this mentality, you will never be able to open up PvP games to the larger PvE market. They whine endlessly about content that costs us money. Content costs money to produce. Content takes up space on the servers. Content requires balance. New content drives clients to the new areas at the expense of the old; especially if the new content is better. This mentality is a creation of the developers. You want to place the rabbit in front of the greyhounds so that they run around the track after the rabbit. Then you let them catch the rabbit. Now the greyhounds won't run any more unless you show them a new rabbit. Maybe you should consider using a different rabbit, or not using a rabbit at all? If you give them classes they bitch that class A is better than class B. Inevitably a designer's pet class gets to be a little better than the others and shazam... players bitch and threaten to quit. The investors twist your arm into making the other classes weaker, since making them stronger shortens content life and makes the game less intriguing. And adding more content makes things cost more. And players HATE buying expansions. Rock, paper, scissors. Take a walk on the wild side, get away from rock, paper, scissors. There is so much in life that is not rock, paper, scissors. How about no classes, just a cornucopia of skills that players can mix and match in any way to their hearts desire. Let the players create their own classes, kind of like what Chris Taylor did in Dungeon Siege. If you give them skill points then two things happen (yes, always): 1 a large portion of the crowd will mangle their characters and make them "less than optimal". 2 a small subset of the players (including yours truly *rubs fingernails on shirt and glances at them*) will figure out a "maximized" build. Everyone will flock to this when they create new characters. Or they will bitch ENDLESSLY about having a reset or a number of resets. Once the resets are indefinitely in, you've just set the timer on your termination. The game becomes trivial. (MXO is case in point.) Stay away from classes then. Players are trying to optimize their class. Without classes there becomes too many alternatives to optimize. When you combine classes and skills you set the players on the thought process of "what is the best build". As a developer you want to change that mindset into one of "what do I want to build". Once again, as with the greyhound, developers have created this mindset among the players by continually thinking inside the box. If you don't give them enough skills (CoX, LOTR, DDO) then the clients don't seem to advance in the game. MMORPGS are a metaphor for their lives. They want to advance. They want to be powerful and crush shit. This is why WoW is so damned popular. The common man can win. And money IS our goal, after all. So, you changed the model from that Friday night Dungeons and Dragons role playing game in which everyone sat around drinking, socializing, and thinking up demented things, like gang banging a Medusa (how can we get the burlap sack over her head without looking at her, c'mon guys, it's like a Friday nite pickup at the bar). You placed the rabbit on the track in front of the greyhound, and now don't know how to deal with it. Did you every play the Temple of Apshai games, the early Ultima games? They weren't about the level treadmill, they were story driven. You changed the model, and are now caught up in your own change. It is a psychological fact that people are confused with greater intensity after 3 choices. Give them 20 and they're paralyzed. This is why most new class based games are working with an inverted tree system. Fewer choices. (I personally dislike inverted trees because I'm limiting myself as I go up in power. I lose things.) Let's look at it another way. In POTBS there are more than 3 choices for ships for my character to have. Okay, so I am paralyzed and can't make an immediate decision. But I don't have to make an immediate decision do I? I can write down the stats, step away from the game, go into the bathroom, and take a nice, long, refreshing dump as I look things over and figure out what works best for me. Who ever said that game decisions have to be made in real time. In EQ 2, when I level while in a group, I never make my stat upgrade decisions, I wait until I can study them. Once again, developers have placed the rabbit on the track for the greyhounds to chase....... After all, content is going to be used as follows: Gear - XP - Access - Group Availability - Aesthetics. Your content leaves out the most important aspect. To paraphrase a General Motors add... "When you turn on your MMORPG, does it return the favor?" Where is the fun? What you have just described is building a game using a cookie cutter checksheet.General Motors used to do this before Bob Lutz came over from Chrysler. They got the Aztek. Now they have the Impala, Malibu, and the CTS. Once again, take a walk on the wild side.... Everything you say here is a criticism of how your client base reacts to the business model developers created. You seem to shift the blame onto your client base, without sitting down and analzing the business model. And, for a defense, your first thought is to say, "But that's what our client's want....Gear-XP-Access-Group-Aesthetics...while ignoring what your clients are telling you, that they want a different business model. You keep offering them a Pontiac Aztek, and blaming them when they say they don't like the looks of it.
Over half the games on the left, I could call home with just a little fine tuning.
Some of you ask for mountains. Some of you don't know what you want. Some of you ask to basically shaft other players (cannot work unless you find masochists).
I never ask for anything but grouping/soloing in PvE. And most game have it. But they all, except CoX, try to force me to play something else. The path of progression is what determine my journey, totally and completely. No arguments here, I am an achiever. And I want to group/solo, so the path of progression must be completely in either of these 2 gameplays (grouping preferably)...at least on a server.
The Socialisers which try to promote raiding, the Killers which want to promote FFA PvP...don't you see that they want to play with us, Achievers? Making a game to please these peoples at the expanse of the achievers won't work. Creating a flawed achievements system will produce a flawed result. Best groupers have to be groupers. Best soloers have to be soloers. This is achievement rule #1. Your lifeblood in these MMOs, it is the achievers...the proof? Levels! Who is silly enought to play alone your game even if the world is empty? The achievers.
And for any game where I have such a problem, the work of 1 programmer would suffice to alter the server to apply to such rules...of course extensive design and much more can always embellish stuff, but, not necessary...all it takes...it is the work of 1 programmer.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The games of today are absolutely following the money train that is world of wacraft and as we know world of wacraft is possibly the easiest mmo to be released at the time (2004). It released just as everquest 1 was begining to wind down and with ultima online still going on, but unfortunatly the allure of an easy game and Phat lewts has drawn the large portion of the new generation of mmo players in, these being the players that didn't experience the communitiy aspect of the older generation of MMO's (everquest, ultima online) these being community mmo's atleast from everquests point of view in forced grouping and the fact that monsters abolustely did not scale with the players level. The roleplay point of view of the game is what gives everquest and ultima online their immersion factor the not knowing whats round the next corner because you don't have a map that shows you exactly where all the monsters are or having a nice exclamation mark above an npc's head to show you where to get your next quest from even though this is harsh it's what makes the classics fun to play and to get lost in it represents a challenge for the player and the feeling of ADVENTURE something which is missing. Even though Everquest was a grind game it was a party grind game which means it wasn't boring (atleast i never found it boring) you could chat with your party members and it actually felt like an MMO, unlike recently where players can play singleplayer completely up to level 70 which defeats the purpose of playing the game online now we've got massivelysingleplayeronlinegames.
Forced grouping has become a byword for hardcore lately, as the gamers would much rather have a casual game that they can play over a few hours without having to devote whole evening saying "LFG DL "(dreadlands) or afking at the entrance of karnors castle to see in shout "TRAIN TO ZONE" and then to come back after 15 minutes with a nice chunk of your XP missing to then have to sit saying "LF REZ KC ENTRACE" not that i have any problem with this as everquest was the first real mmo that i played and i loved every minute of it i get nostalgic when watching the video's of the old raids from EQ. it was the immersion that pulled me into the game the immersion coming from the fact that you actually had a ROLE to PLAY whilst playing even at low level which is something that seems to have been lost recently in the wake of world of warcraft and it's many clones.
My main point is that the industry has been dominated by the HARDCORE and the CASUAL gamestyles and unfortunatly it seems that the casual has won as wow was thrust into the mainstream it couldn't be difficult or overly complex otherwise the casual player wouldn't understand pretty much every element that made up a classic mmo was stripped away and all thats left is a loot gathering grind fest. The mentality of i want what he's got where everything is achievable by everyone which brings the overall feeling of acomplishment down when you see 100 other people wandering around with the same gear as you because it's the "best build" for your class.
Newer games to be released lately make many promises particularly earlier on with their promises for open PvP and group centric leveling to draw in those hardcore players that will make up their core player base on the hope that they might get what the devs promised. But this is rapidly dumbed down to commercialise the game for the casual mainstream gamer. Which leaves the veterans out in the cold playing a game thats completely different to what was promised initially. There is an appauling lack of innovation in the games with oversimplyfied everything to make it nice and user friendly
Comments
I havent read much of this thread so forgive me if this has been said.
But the biggest problem with MMorpgs is the lack of innovation.
Devs have been more interested in finding ways to keep us playing rather than trying to make a game that is truely fun to play. Games are for fun, not for work.
What worries me is the dumbing down of the industry over the last few years. Look at other types of games, like platform: there are games for kids, there are games for adults, there are games for teens. And yet, MMos still try to make a game for everyone. Why? In an effort to please everyone, they make a game that is non-commital and end up pleasing few.
Let there be PvE games, let there be voluntary PvP games and let there be brutal PvP games(just 3 examples of diff types of games.) But what there shouldnt be id a PvE game with PvP servers because quite honestly it doesnt work.Games cant be balanced and developed for both.
I dont play EVE anymore, but I always admired the way they did things. They say "this is our game, this is how it is, it isnt for everyone." Contrast that to what most large scale releases do. They say " please come try our game, you will love it, we put stuff in there for everyone!!"
Please devs, if you see this. Try new stuff, get rid of grinds and timesinks, and dont be afraid to challenge us. Its not about pleasing everyone but making a good game. Your not going to get every customer and if you try to make a game that does get every customer your going to get none.
The next gen mmo's are redundant and routine and have a lack of inspiring things too do in them. Most focus on becoming better then Wow and focusing only on that. Many new mmo's are cutting parts out of mmo's such as crafting/player homes and other sand box idea's
You priase Eve and then complain about time sinks and grinds;) The biggest time sinks ever created in a MMO are Eve's skill training and travel/movement system.
Since when is it a problem to make a game loads of people enjoy anyhow? Oh thats right. It would make it popular or , gasp...FUN. Then normal people will play and we can't have that. Normal people are evil and raped the genre, tearing it away from the nerd elite=) Only the nerds know a good game when they play one. The rest of us don't have a clue, right?
By the way, if a game pleases a lot of people, and we know exactly which game that is, its in fact a very good game esspecially when all the critics agree with all the people playing it. Compared to something like Eve where very few play it and critics basically consider it average or not even worth the time to review. It seems the mark of a good game for some people is how few people actually enjoy it. I guess it gives them some feeling of being a part of some special group of people who can somehow appreciate what the rest of us can't;)
Infact many of the MMOs being made these days have tried to stay away from the whole sandbox feel, going for more of a leashed type gameplay. A lot of people associate sandbox with boring or difficult. While others, like myself, like to feel free to discover our own paths in a game.
There are people who like to have a ton of options for gameplay (Crafting, Socializing, PvE, PvP, Lore Finding, etc) while others feel overwhelmed by things to do. Its sad because both styles can exist in the same game, its just companies would rather stick to the known, trusted, working formula. They see a game like WoW that offers such a basic game raking in the money, so they will follow suit.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You priase Eve and then complain about time sinks and grinds;) The biggest time sinks ever created in a MMO are Eve's skill training and travel/movement system.
Since when is it a problem to make a game loads of people enjoy anyhow? Oh thats right. It would make it popular or , gasp...FUN. Then normal people will play and we can't have that. Normal people are evil and raped the genre, tearing it away from the nerd elite=) Only the nerds know a good game when they play one. The rest of us don't have a clue, right?
By the way, if a game pleases a lot of people, and we know exactly which game that is, its in fact a very good game esspecially when all the critics agree with all the people playing it. Compared to something like Eve where very few play it and critics basically consider it average or not even worth the time to review. It seems the mark of a good game for some people is how few people actually enjoy it. I guess it gives them some feeling of being a part of some special group of people who can somehow appreciate what the rest of us can't;)
IM sorry, Ill explain myself better.
I commend EVEs devs because they made a game thats brutal PvP. They said from day 1 thats how it was and they have stuck to it. They balance the the game, quite effectively, knowing exactly this. The EVE forums get people complaining daily about the brutality of the game and the devs will quite simply say "this game isnt for everyone" because the change the people are asking for goes directly against the design of the game. The opposite of this would be UO. Anyone old enough to remember when it was released this game was advertised as brutal and lawless, and it was. The game came out, people bitched and moaned and basically were vocal enough to get the game changed into something that the original devs never wanted the game to be.
I do not excuse EVE for the rediculous amounts of timesinks, grinds, etc. I was simply commending them for sticking to their vision. A vision that is working for them. I completely agree that they may be the king of timesinks.
And I think you are reading way too much into what I said. I do not mind a game being vastly popular. I know you think im talking specifically about WoW but im really not. In fact, I have far more good things to say about WoW, than bad.
Im talking more specifically about other titles that couldnt figure out what they wanted to be and essentially are fizzling or fizzled because of it. Games like SWG, Vanguard, UO, DAoC, and many others. Even the most avid WoW fan would have to admit that Blizzards inability to commit to PvP or PvE creates serious balance problems for 1 or both aspects of the game. Much like DAoC classes can be extrordinarily useful in PvP and useless in PvE. If they try to address 1 aspect they end up making it unbalanced in the other. The best example I can think of is an old 1 from EQ. In the 1st few years of EQ(when I played) the Shadow Knight was the most useless class to raid or group with in PvE. Most power guilds wouldnt even bother bringing them because they simply took up raid spots and had no function. Yet oddly enough, it was BY FAR the most played class on the PvP server. People would scream for them to be balanced in PvE but the devs were hesitant because of how simply overpowered the class was in PvP.
I would rather see games commit to 1 niche and excell, much like what happens in console games. You dont see sports games try to incorporate 1st person shooter and simulation all into 1. Essentially, thats what MMorpgs try and fail to do. You hear people on this site talk about "who will the WoW killer be?" and I laugh because I'd rather the next big title coexist with WoW. EvE has nowhere near WoWs numbers yet their population continues to grow and CCP is doing quite well $ wise from the game. Why dont more people copy EvE's mold of trying to create a successful niche game rather than trying to create the "wow killer" which is exactly what they are trying to do and you can see it from thier advertising pushes.
I think this is certainly a big part of it. Games like WoW (I don't mean to slam it, but it's just the best example) just aren't immersive, even if you try, because the whole game is so focused on leveling up and then grinding gear.
I personally think that the huge focus on gear/items has corrupted MMORPGs. I don't know when the trend first started (eq maybe? uo?), but the idea of a person wearing 25 different pieces of magical gear, each of which enhances the most random and off-the-wall attributes of a person (pants that make you smarter, a crossbow that makes you heal more quickly, etc.) is repugnant to me.
A game like shadowbane handled gear the way I think it should be. A person wore perhaps 4-5 pieces of armor (helmet, chest, legs, arms, gloves) and a couple pieces of other magical gear (rings, necklace), and that was it. Furthermore, there was not a great variety in quality of gear available to someone at "max level". One person near the level cap's gear was most likely at least 80% of the quality of anyone else at the cap.
This not only helped even the playing field when it came to PvP, but if such a thing were implemented in a game with PvE, it would shift the focus of end game away from an endless grind/treadmill for more and more better gear, which just becomes obsolete eventually anyway, with something else. Maybe more focus on immersion in the game world, or alternate paths to success (crafting, exploration, etc. instead of just a PvP and a PvE grind), etc.
/signed
WTF is it with these helmets that make you more dextrous and boots that make you smarter? Please, just get rid of the silly grinding for gear.
Aside from being completely nonsensical, I think it gives entirely the wrong focus to the game.
What should you replace it with? Content that is fun for its own sake...
When you read fantasy novels, is the hero doing something so that he has a chance to lot on a rare-drop pair of boots that will make him heal better? Well, maybe if you are reading really crappy books but not the ones I am reading.
As someone else remarked, I think people/designers have just gotten caught up in the addictive gear-grind treadmill and are just not looking for a broader perspective.
I think one big problem with games in general is investors. They are very demanding with release dates and budgets and wind up putting too much pressure on most gaming companies.
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I think it is the new community. The people that complain about how long it takes to level, having to group, having to raid/group for gear, or anything else that might take some time to do. Most of these people do not seem to know the concept of what a rpg is. It seems like they have never played DnD and other older great rpg PC games.
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I think the market though is big enough now to make games directed at different audiences instead of please them all approach. You end up just providing a mediocre experience for everyone and people complain. Why not give the people like me their games that take time to level, no instances, very little soloing, no maps, no linear quest.
Then give others games that they may enjoy such as the people who like WoW with it's superfast and easy leveling by linear questing. Easy armor to obtain. How about provide the harsh pvper's with a game that suites their needs. Let's provide those who like sandbox skill based games a home.
There is no reason to say games should not be made a certain way when there are people that like different things and need to have different games. If anything we need to be complaining that they try to lump us all together into a game that tries to please us all ..that isn't going to happen. No offense but many of you in this thread have ideas that I do not find appealing whatsoever. I want EQ type games. You probably do not find them appealing but I bet you there are enough people out there to occupy the type of games we are looking for.
I could not agree more. I prefer sandbox games to anything out there and at the moment EvE is prety much the only one.
I aslo agree with Consequence, great post, as I played EvE for over a year but stopped a few months ago. I still pay for my character incase I want to go back. I for one enjoy the Training system because it means that I do not fall behind when I go away on business or cannot log in for a week due to RL committments. What most people forget is that in EvE the level grind is actually a money grind. If you flip the money and skills over you get a better picture. Most games the higher your level the better you are but in EvE the more money you have the better you are.
If I had a choice I would want a fantasy sandbox game with a limitless skill tree that is realtime based, full PvP, player driven economy and a protection status as EvE has in levels. So when you are close to major cities the "police" protect you very qucikly and the further away you get the less protection is offered.
This post should be stickied at the top of the forums,so we dont have multiple threads per day all saying the same thing over and over.
Well of course its always been the ppl, but the games have gotten 1000x easier than 10 yrs ago, and the new generation is still complaining that its too hard....sheesh give us vets a break!
Kemih ~ 13 Red Mage | Currently playing FFXI & LOTRO, awaiting Warhammer Online & Aion...
It is not all about the graphics and sound. Gameplay and storyline are important. There is not much point doing a quest when you don't have to think.
Developers not sticking to their design plan when confronted by a vocal minority. Dumb downs, giveaways, exp bonus weekends, elimination of death penalty, ect... These actions all move MMOs into an entirely boring process that can be mastered by millions, in a move towards mass market appeal.
It seems that playing in a challenging gaming environment is just too hard for people to deal with anymore.
Games are dumbed down, its all about money, subscriptions =cash=happy company.
They dont give a rats ass about any player / FACT.
WOW has high subs, but thats because any old pc can play this crap.
Parenst get new pc's they pass on the old junk to lil johhny who plays wow, cause its piss easy, and thats all the pc he got can run.
so companies try to emulate wows " success", they dumb down games "SOE" are real bad for this.
it should take time to level, and if you die you should suffer!
cry babies are the biggest problem in MMORPG'S.
whiney bastards
basically the main problems of MMO's are bugs,lag,hackers..
I'm playing WYD Global ^_^
Yep, the games today are really beeing dumbed down. And the more MMOs i try the more insulted i get. If this continue, we will end up with the "kill" buton, a "do quest" button and a "run" button.
Why cant the game indistry challence and me by saying "we dont know if you can handle this?". Not saying it should be a becomming a fighter pilot or anything. But atleast try and make me feel something when i play. Exept the hunt for a new level.
I think the lack of innovation is the biggest problem. The average mmo player is about 33 years old and has been playing video games since atari yet the bottomline watching developers focus on gaining the most market share by making each game simple enough for any 5 year old to pick up and start playing. This leaves the more experienced player base feeling unchallenged and uninspired, their virtual achievements feel meaningless and their gameplay boring. Hey, there should be simple games for kids and casuals, but a large segment of the gaming world is being ignored because what they desire, dynamic world's, intricate storylines, balanced pvp, great graphics, are not cost effective leaving the mmo as a genre in a sort of digitalized dark age.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
whiny crying posts like this ^
Now why can't someone just make a RPG sandbox game.......please
Awesome post olddaddy
Damn right!
Especially the interaction between the player and the environment.
If I see a door it should open or be 'locked' and require a key.
If everyone walks up and down the same bit of grass, well there should be wear and tear of the grass etc
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Over half the games on the left, I could call home with just a little fine tuning.
Some of you ask for mountains. Some of you don't know what you want. Some of you ask to basically shaft other players (cannot work unless you find masochists).
I never ask for anything but grouping/soloing in PvE. And most game have it. But they all, except CoX, try to force me to play something else. The path of progression is what determine my journey, totally and completely. No arguments here, I am an achiever. And I want to group/solo, so the path of progression must be completely in either of these 2 gameplays (grouping preferably)...at least on a server.
The Socialisers which try to promote raiding, the Killers which want to promote FFA PvP...don't you see that they want to play with us, Achievers? Making a game to please these peoples at the expanse of the achievers won't work. Creating a flawed achievements system will produce a flawed result. Best groupers have to be groupers. Best soloers have to be soloers. This is achievement rule #1. Your lifeblood in these MMOs, it is the achievers...the proof? Levels! Who is silly enought to play alone your game even if the world is empty? The achievers.
And for any game where I have such a problem, the work of 1 programmer would suffice to alter the server to apply to such rules...of course extensive design and much more can always embellish stuff, but, not necessary...all it takes...it is the work of 1 programmer.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well I think it's te lag =/
Cya
The games of today are absolutely following the money train that is world of wacraft and as we know world of wacraft is possibly the easiest mmo to be released at the time (2004). It released just as everquest 1 was begining to wind down and with ultima online still going on, but unfortunatly the allure of an easy game and Phat lewts has drawn the large portion of the new generation of mmo players in, these being the players that didn't experience the communitiy aspect of the older generation of MMO's (everquest, ultima online) these being community mmo's atleast from everquests point of view in forced grouping and the fact that monsters abolustely did not scale with the players level. The roleplay point of view of the game is what gives everquest and ultima online their immersion factor the not knowing whats round the next corner because you don't have a map that shows you exactly where all the monsters are or having a nice exclamation mark above an npc's head to show you where to get your next quest from even though this is harsh it's what makes the classics fun to play and to get lost in it represents a challenge for the player and the feeling of ADVENTURE something which is missing. Even though Everquest was a grind game it was a party grind game which means it wasn't boring (atleast i never found it boring) you could chat with your party members and it actually felt like an MMO, unlike recently where players can play singleplayer completely up to level 70 which defeats the purpose of playing the game online now we've got massivelysingleplayeronlinegames.
Forced grouping has become a byword for hardcore lately, as the gamers would much rather have a casual game that they can play over a few hours without having to devote whole evening saying "LFG DL "(dreadlands) or afking at the entrance of karnors castle to see in shout "TRAIN TO ZONE" and then to come back after 15 minutes with a nice chunk of your XP missing to then have to sit saying "LF REZ KC ENTRACE" not that i have any problem with this as everquest was the first real mmo that i played and i loved every minute of it i get nostalgic when watching the video's of the old raids from EQ. it was the immersion that pulled me into the game the immersion coming from the fact that you actually had a ROLE to PLAY whilst playing even at low level which is something that seems to have been lost recently in the wake of world of warcraft and it's many clones.
My main point is that the industry has been dominated by the HARDCORE and the CASUAL gamestyles and unfortunatly it seems that the casual has won as wow was thrust into the mainstream it couldn't be difficult or overly complex otherwise the casual player wouldn't understand pretty much every element that made up a classic mmo was stripped away and all thats left is a loot gathering grind fest. The mentality of i want what he's got where everything is achievable by everyone which brings the overall feeling of acomplishment down when you see 100 other people wandering around with the same gear as you because it's the "best build" for your class.
Newer games to be released lately make many promises particularly earlier on with their promises for open PvP and group centric leveling to draw in those hardcore players that will make up their core player base on the hope that they might get what the devs promised. But this is rapidly dumbed down to commercialise the game for the casual mainstream gamer. Which leaves the veterans out in the cold playing a game thats completely different to what was promised initially. There is an appauling lack of innovation in the games with oversimplyfied everything to make it nice and user friendly
/rant off