The only -realistic- and really -harsh- DP is Perma-death. That's right. You die, your character is gone. THAT's realistic. That's HARSH. Anyone who tells me XP loss on death is more realistic is just not making much sense. Losing equipment on death? Not any more realistic than just waking up a few minutes later without anything having happened at all.
So really, all of you elitists who seem to think that enjoying time-sinks (read harsh-DP's) in a game elevates them above the rest of us, making them better gamers, you are not. You are not better gamers, you are not facing harsh consequences and you are most certainly not playing a more realistic game. All you do is make yourself ready to invest more time.
You've obviously never lost a capital ship in EVE, or you'd agree that perma death is nothing compared to it.
A Titan's value in ISK (should you chose to buy it by selling GTC's) is probably near $10,000 real world dollars. That's a harsh death penalty. It takes the efforts of many players over many months to even build such a thing, and its much harsher than losing a character.
Though in EVE, losing a high skill point character would hurt far more than most other games, because the training can only be done real-time, and there is no way to accelerate it. Lose a character with 4 years of training, you're talking about a real loss. Lose a WOW character, no big deal, what, takes like 2 months on a bad day to retrain one to max skill level?
So yeah, we are better, just because we're willing to risk more than others. (even if its just time/money)
But that's what makes the game so fun, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
Actually, I know what you are talking about, so let me say that EVE is an exception. I think in an earlier post I also stated that EVE is one of the games with harsh penalties. I do know how ti feels to lose a Titan (was in Cataclysm Enterprises when the D2 Titan got blown outta the sky -.-) so yes, you've got a point. I don't know if I would say it's much harsher than perma-death, I would say that depends on how advanced your character is and how much time you poured into it, right?
And I would still like to point out that it doesn't make you -better- that you are risking more time to put into the game.
After all, we are playing a game and some of us don't spend as much time in it as others. That doesn't make those who spend more time/money on the game better people. More experienced and probably more knowledgeable about the game due to spending more time there, yes, but not -better-. Honestly, this whole attacking back and forth between gamers of different types is just annoying.
You play your game the way you want, the way you have fun and others play it a different way. It's not a better way...just different. Can we agree to that?
PS: To Mr. flame-me who just posted above me: I did not report you. Your nice way of arguing is what got your posts deleted, not me.
I will be honest! I am just hoping that AoC will have any DP at all and the devs are willing to stick to their guns about keeping it.
But I wont hold my breath for it. The trend appears to be against us.
i just hope its a ffa harsh dp where all the carebears die one time and leave cause they cant stand it...then maybee implement a seperate server for the softies to hold hands and kill mobs
Everyone is for a harsh death penalty... until they die.
"I was afk and this #$)(&%*$)*%$$% killed me!!!"
"I hit a lag spike and $)#*%)*%)*%$ died!!!!!!!!!"
"I was jumped by 5 people and they killed me and took all of the stuff I played for #*%$)*%)@% hours for."
"He was obviously hacking."
All of the usual 'reasons' that someone dies in a game.
...
I would be for a death penalty... IF...
If you died and your corpse was looted... then a bounty could be issued. Upon completion of the 'mark' being killed, your items were returned to your 'house' (your family, more or less). Your 'new toon' could use them if/when they hit the required level... as heirlooms, of sorts.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die."
...
But seriously, if you want a 'harsh' death penalty... impose one on yourself! Delete your toon when you die... no matter what game you are playing. Give it a try.
Everyone who plays WoW... the next time you die in a battleground or arena... delete your toon. Hang it up. Probably wouldn't sit well, eh?
kinda remind me of the kid in highschool who would punch his locker cause a bully picked on him instead of standing up for himself...
or rant on forums with an online tough guy persona,eh?
here it is plain and simple...if u do not like pvp and death penaltys in a game DO NOT PLAY...dont ruin it for others who agree and like the game just gtfo and let the pvpers enjoy themselves or come and play with us and be our tools
when did i say that i didnt like pvp?
Im playing a harcore elite (permadeath) character in Mythos right now..which is also getting open pvp any day soon.
Everyone is for a harsh death penalty... until they die. "I was afk and this #$)(&%*$)*%$$% killed me!!!" "I hit a lag spike and $)#*%)*%)*%$ died!!!!!!!!!" "I was jumped by 5 people and they killed me and took all of the stuff I played for #*%$)*%)@% hours for." "He was obviously hacking." All of the usual 'reasons' that someone dies in a game. ... I would be for a death penalty... IF... If you died and your corpse was looted... then a bounty could be issued. Upon completion of the 'mark' being killed, your items were returned to your 'house' (your family, more or less). Your 'new toon' could use them if/when they hit the required level... as heirlooms, of sorts. "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die." ... But seriously, if you want a 'harsh' death penalty... impose one on yourself! Delete your toon when you die... no matter what game you are playing. Give it a try. Everyone who plays WoW... the next time you die in a battleground or arena... delete your toon. Hang it up. Probably wouldn't sit well, eh?
i dont care if my comp crashed and my char stayed ingame till it was looted/delvled till it was warse then a new toon...fact is they havent even said anything about how severe of a dp is gonna be in the game and the carebears are already crying...hate to be repetive but just GTFO CAREBEARS AND GO PLAY WOW
if i had it my way your mothly fee of the game would be determined by how many people u scrubbed or how many times u were scrubbed...lets say 1 dollar for everytime u hit the dirt that month is your mothly fee and make it ffa pvp where grievers can just kick your butt 24/7 take your gear carry your body to a cliff and throw it off and make u find it in the bottom of the ocean b4 u can respawn
I love the mentality that those against a harsh DP are somehow "not manly". This I find amusing as hell. It's more like we have X amount of time to dedicate to a "Game" a GAME we pay for to enjoy.
Now you toss in your epeen induced harsh DP and for many of us, that time and money becomes not a source of "wow look, despite the obstacles I have arrived!" it becomes a matter of high annoyance at losing that XP, or lost gear to a looter... whatever it is...
It annoys us. We want challenges that are more original then "Die and suffer b****!" That system inherently favors the power gamers that have far more time to play, generally high school an college students that still think they are tough because they can out level most people in a video game...
Doesn't really matter, the days of a real harsh DP are dead and gone, companies cater to the group most likely to bring them a profit, and the epeen nerds of the internet are in no way a profitable demographic to pursue. Besides, in the light of it, AoC is an MMO being made for the 360, released on PC first to mitigate the risk (even FFXI went PC first ). thus they are angling for the casual gamers thus the DP will be light by many on this threads standards. Which might cost FC a few players, but in the end will net them a larger player base.
You want a harsh DP, go play D&D with some friends.
I really like how the people who want a DP in a game are considered insulting on this thread yet you group everyone who wants one as EPEEN. First of all i had to look up EPEEN because i no idea what it meant. And i see that it was basically invented by teenagers for Chat rooms, way to show your maturity. And i guarentee you that i dont want a stiff DP because i want to prove my penis is bigger they yours or anyone elses, im married with 3 kids, my days of worrying about that are long gone. And i dont PVP much so im not worried about gloating over killing you.
Then you make the 100% accurate statement that harsh DPs are dead and gone and there is not profitable market for a game with them. Actually that is wrong (which you should be able to tell by the response on your own thread), is there a 1 Million player base market for one, probably not, but you dont need 1 million players to be profitable do you, no 250000 will make you plenty of money. Then you go on to say that since AOC is being built to play on the 360 it will cater to the casual crowd, quoting that FFXI did the same thing. Well you are right, FFXI did go for the console crowd, yet it was in no way casual and had a pretty stiff death penalty.
Then you finish with "You want a harsh DP, go play D&D with some friends"
So how about "You dont want a harsh DP, go play WoW, or EQ2, or LOTR, or COX, or Vanguard, or current EQ, etc etc.
After my rant i figured i would post something perhaps a little constructive.
This is why i feel DPs add to a game. I want to feel actual emotion when i am playing a game, i want it to be more then just playing a game, i can play Sims or something if i just want to play a game. I dont think, at least i havent had it happen, that you can get real emotions in a game without some fear. I have figured out that the best times i had in EQ, and to a lesser extent DAOC, was when i was actually a bit afraid of what i was doing. I was a bit scared when i went into Mistymoore the first time, i was a bit scared when i went into SOL A/B the first time, i was a bit scared when i went into GUK the first time, Karnors Castle, Kith Forest, Befallen, etc etc. My heart was actually racing. There was a fear of the unknown in EQ, you just didnt run into a cave in EQ because you didnt know if you were going to die once in there. I had to run through Kael with my Druid so i could get the scroll for the Wakening Lands ring and i was actually scared that my Camo would wear off, the giants didnt like me much. Then when half way through it started blinking i really got scared and had to find a corner somewhere to hide so i could recast it. Actual fear adds something to the game. And you dont have fear if you arent afraid to die.
Once i found out that dying meant nothing in WoW i wasnt scarred of anything. I wasnt worried about going anywhere. If i saw a cave a ran into it, if i died then i knew not to go in there again for a few levels but that was pretty much it. Death was simply a gage on how your tactics worked. Hmm, i died, i guess i will try it with this tactic this time.
I dont know if people still do this in WoW but when i was playing death was a form of faster travel. I was getting directions to somewhere and the guy actually said i should run into the zone until i get killed, i will then pop up at a certain graveyard which is closer to the other side of the zone then what i would make running. There were most likely three of these death jumps in my trip and that was perfectly exceptable. I chose not to make the trip. Death should never be a convienence.
Pain of death gives you a respect for a game. True when you die due to computer problems or someone elses stupidity that sucks but come on, this is a game. All the death will do is make you play the game a bit longer. I tend not to play games that i dont like (at least for long) so having to play it a bit longer really isnt going to bother me much. If it bothers you too much then you probably dont enjoy the game, you arent in it to play, you are in it to finish.
But im not trying to sell anyone on harsh DPs. You dont like them that is fine, there are plenty of games for you to chose from. What i dont like is that anytime a game goes into development that seems to cater to those that like DPs the forum gets bombarded with people saying who DPs suck and no body likes them, etc etc. And sadly the Devs usually fold to this. Vanguard did it, it looks like Conan is going to do it. There can be different games that cater to different people on the market, they all dont have to have WoWs DP, they all dont have to have quest lines where you follow the bouncing question mark from 1-50. I/We are not trying to get Blizzard to make a harsh DP in WoW, we would just like it if a game comes out saying that they they are going to have DPs and what many call Timesinks you let them because there is an audience for it.
I'm a complete advocate of what is most likely usually considered a somewhat severe death penalty. No perma-death. Just xp loss, maybe some equip and/or currency loss in PvP. The lack of a death penalty that demands compromise in gameplay simply brings about mindlessness and promotes thoughtless skills and strategies, a la World of Warcraft.
For a lot of us, it's not about epeens.
It's about intelligence. It's about challenging ourselves. Yes, these things are considered fun to some of us.
The aim of the death penalty is to bring to the player a sense of discretion. A 30 second jog with no possible danger via ghost form to your corpse is a sad, complete bull**** excuse for a death penalty. I mean, that's such a watered down consequence, it shouldn't even exist. It has no point. There is no incentive to strive to survive and/or play intelligently when what you're risking is a very brief amount of time.
The idea of no death penalty just completely boggles my mind. Do you want to be spoon fed the entire game? How about the developers level your character for you?? Then, they can just hand out the best gear to anyone who simply logs in... And it's done. The game, the journey, the challenge; it's all completed without an ounce of effort or involvement on your part. We hope the glow of the monitor provides a nice massage for your brain while you sit and stare.
That leads me to a question for anyone who doesn't want a death penalty: Why do you play MMORPGs?? They're games BASED around these things: Character progression, journeys, investment, challenges. You really want your cake and you want to eat it too, huh? The least you could do is stick to other games and not have the MMORPG market watered down to coma-inducing simplicity and ease.
Sadly, wanting to involve a challenging environment demanding mental investment in video games leaves me in the new minority, and World of Warcraft continues to sell.
Even more sadly, I think this says a lot more about a lazy culture of instant gratification than just a simple video game trend.
After my rant i figured i would post something perhaps a little constructive. This is why i feel DPs add to a game. I want to feel actual emotion when i am playing a game, i want it to be more then just playing a game, i can play Sims or something if i just want to play a game. I dont think, at least i havent had it happen, that you can get real emotions in a game without some fear. I have figured out that the best times i had in EQ, and to a lesser extent DAOC, was when i was actually a bit afraid of what i was doing. I was a bit scared when i went into Mistymoore the first time, i was a bit scared when i went into SOL A/B the first time, i was a bit scared when i went into GUK the first time, Karnors Castle, Kith Forest, Befallen, etc etc. My heart was actually racing. There was a fear of the unknown in EQ, you just didnt run into a cave in EQ because you didnt know if you were going to die once in there. I had to run through Kael with my Druid so i could get the scroll for the Wakening Lands ring and i was actually scared that my Camo would wear off, the giants didnt like me much. Then when half way through it started blinking i really got scared and had to find a corner somewhere to hide so i could recast it. Actual fear adds something to the game. And you dont have fear if you arent afraid to die. Once i found out that dying meant nothing in WoW i wasnt scarred of anything. I wasnt worried about going anywhere. If i saw a cave a ran into it, if i died then i knew not to go in there again for a few levels but that was pretty much it. Death was simply a gage on how your tactics worked. Hmm, i died, i guess i will try it with this tactic this time. I dont know if people still do this in WoW but when i was playing death was a form of faster travel. I was getting directions to somewhere and the guy actually said i should run into the zone until i get killed, i will then pop up at a certain graveyard which is closer to the other side of the zone then what i would make running. There were most likely three of these death jumps in my trip and that was perfectly exceptable. I chose not to make the trip. Death should never be a convienence. Pain of death gives you a respect for a game. True when you die due to computer problems or someone elses stupidity that sucks but come on, this is a game. All the death will do is make you play the game a bit longer. I tend not to play games that i dont like (at least for long) so having to play it a bit longer really isnt going to bother me much. If it bothers you too much then you probably dont enjoy the game, you arent in it to play, you are in it to finish. But im not trying to sell anyone on harsh DPs. You dont like them that is fine, there are plenty of games for you to chose from. What i dont like is that anytime a game goes into development that seems to cater to those that like DPs the forum gets bombarded with people saying who DPs suck and no body likes them, etc etc. And sadly the Devs usually fold to this. Vanguard did it, it looks like Conan is going to do it. There can be different games that cater to different people on the market, they all dont have to have WoWs DP, they all dont have to have quest lines where you follow the bouncing question mark from 1-50. I/We are not trying to get Blizzard to make a harsh DP in WoW, we would just like it if a game comes out saying that they they are going to have DPs and what many call Timesinks you let them because there is an audience for it.
Well, I don't have a problem with the Harsh DP's crowd playing games their way and if the DP is too harsh in my own personal opinion, I will simply not play the game. That was, as far as I could tell, not even the point in this thread.
The point was, at least to my understanding, to discuss -why- people like Harsh DP's and why others don't like them. Statements were made and flames were the result. I honestly can't be bothered to go through the entire thread to find all the bashing that was going back and forth, but fact remains, that people get attacked for their view on how they enjoy a game and why they enjoy it that way. Plus, the attitude of many people believing their playstyle to be -BETTER- than that of others (and please note, I am not pointing fingers at any one group or person here).
Regarding AoC, as far as I understand, they never said what kind of DP's they had in mind, they officially stated however, that they are still debating this and will eventually release info on it. So it makes no sense to complain that Dev's are folding to this, since no official announcement was made yet. You can still hope for harsh DP's and those who don't like them can hope for none, or light ones.
I myself will sit back and wait till an announcement is made and eventually play the game. With or without harsh DP's and I will have fun in both possible versions. Cheers!
You are right, the flame war that insued was ridiculous. But i really doubt that the OP really wanted to hear reasons why people want a harsher DP in games. Actual reasons which sound valid have been given but they are met with ridicule.
This is why it is really an issue for me. I can understand why some dont want a harsh DP, alot of the crowd that started with EQ, UO, AC dont have the time they once did to play video games and a harsh DP makes the time they have seem less. I can understand that, though i dont share in it, i also have less time to play games then i did when i started EQ, actually it is more that i choose to play less because i probably could play for 4-5 hours a day still, i just dont want to. At best i will probably play a game 5-8 hours a week now, if that, and i still want a game like EQ vis a game like WoW.
The new crowd is what bothers me. The crowd that never played a game with a harsh DP, the crowd that started with say EQ2, WoW or LoTRs. Now every game has to be like those and since the community who plays MMOs has grown so much due to this new crowd they have a large voice which the Devs tend to listen to. 5 years ago the MMO community was content having games that catered to different playstyles, sure we talked smack about each other but we didnt really try to change games. That isnt the case now. Now a game goes into development and they post what they are planning on having in the game and it gets jumped on by a pack of wolves. There seems to be a set formula now for games and if it is deviated from the game gets destroyed. PoTBS gets destroyed in the forums yet there are people who enjoy it, and enough people to make the game profitable. TR is the same way. These two games are different from the WoW formula so they get destroyed on the boards. I dont care for either of them myself but i truely hope that they succeed because if they get shut down due to all the naysayers then it is just one more step in the direction of all MMOs being WoW clones because no one is willing to try something different.
Not all games have to be the same, nor should they. Diversity is the best thing that could happen to this genre.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
I used the Epeen comment as a direct response to all the "Carebear" type comments directed at me and those that agree with me. It was directed at those players who claim no game or gamer is worthy unless they can survive in a harsh DP enviroment. And yeah the term may have been a teen chat room comment, but we've been using it for about.. oh 10-12 years now.
Poppycock I say to all of that. Timesinks are not a harsh DP. It's an annoyance to see if you have the time, and the willingness to put up with doing MORE work. City of Heroes has the most ANNOYING Timesink in their Debt system. The game is repetitive enough without having to do double duty. BAH.
Now you claimed that there are at least 1,000,000 gamers that would probably like a harsh DP. I say there are 10 million that would never touch that game. Go see which game is going to get made. People inheirently choose the path of least resistance, or in this case, the path of least annoyance. Why do you think WoW is so popular? Which is amusing because they removed the Death timesinks and just tripled it in the end game... haha but I digress. Most of the people ranting about a "harsh DP" would probably play on an AoC "Harsh Server" for a few weeks. Then they'd drift off to the normal servers till only a few hundred were on the "harsh" server. Look at EQ back in it's day. The Rallos Zek server, harshest server of it heyday... always had the lowest population.
It's safe and easy to claim you want to play a "harsh DP" game, and demean those gamers that don't want one, grab the flag of "elite" gamer and mock all others as posers. But we all know such games never will be made again, at least not MMO wise. So come off it, we all know the truth.
A game like that will be made again friend, times are changing again. More and more gamers are getting easily bored with the ease of todays games. Your right death penaltys are just time sinks, but thats just the "same old, same old" labelling that people are using these days when they miss the point of the old style games. What would you prefer in a death penalty? an electric shock? not possible im afraid so the easiest way is to make players not want to die! add a time sink. i played many games where players ran through a dungeon died and didnt care because they would stand up and be fine within minutes.
In old eq death penaltys were not just a case of go and get your body back, you could die at a dragons feet. then it took tactics and organisatioon to get it back, your reward for time spent you ask? simple accomplishement games back then were not all about gaining a level and getting loot. it was about playing a game!
Experience loss with possible level loss is more than just a time sink. If people are dumb enough to keep trying the same event, the same way that they end up loosing a level and leaving the game, I don't mind. A significant DP (not gold, you can buy that) helps promote group interaction. It also helps promote grouping in general as it is less risky.
You are right, the flame war that insued was ridiculous. But i really doubt that the OP really wanted to hear reasons why people want a harsher DP in games. Actual reasons which sound valid have been given but they are met with ridicule. This is why it is really an issue for me. I can understand why some dont want a harsh DP, alot of the crowd that started with EQ, UO, AC dont have the time they once did to play video games and a harsh DP makes the time they have seem less. I can understand that, though i dont share in it, i also have less time to play games then i did when i started EQ, actually it is more that i choose to play less because i probably could play for 4-5 hours a day still, i just dont want to. At best i will probably play a game 5-8 hours a week now, if that, and i still want a game like EQ vis a game like WoW. The new crowd is what bothers me. The crowd that never played a game with a harsh DP, the crowd that started with say EQ2, WoW or LoTRs. Now every game has to be like those and since the community who plays MMOs has grown so much due to this new crowd they have a large voice which the Devs tend to listen to. 5 years ago the MMO community was content having games that catered to different playstyles, sure we talked smack about each other but we didnt really try to change games. That isnt the case now. Now a game goes into development and they post what they are planning on having in the game and it gets jumped on by a pack of wolves. There seems to be a set formula now for games and if it is deviated from the game gets destroyed. PoTBS gets destroyed in the forums yet there are people who enjoy it, and enough people to make the game profitable. TR is the same way. These two games are different from the WoW formula so they get destroyed on the boards. I dont care for either of them myself but i truely hope that they succeed because if they get shut down due to all the naysayers then it is just one more step in the direction of all MMOs being WoW clones because no one is willing to try something different. Not all games have to be the same, nor should they. Diversity is the best thing that could happen to this genre.
I have read a lot of your post and I have to agree with everything you write. Players need to understand not every game should be same. Diversity like you said is a good thing. We have it in single player games and we should as well in MMORPGs. After WoWs big take over in the MMORPG market I feel other companies would be more profitable going after certain type of gamers for their game rather than please them all approach to pull chunks away from the giant. That is how it will be done in the future I believe instead of the please the all approach which in the end gives the player a mediocre experience.
There is a audience out there right now that is untapped and that is the crowd that is looking for challenge, harsher penalties, more of an adult mmorpg that takes some time to play. When a company comes around to making this game that is well designed and plays as smooth as WoW does .. you will see a big audience for it. It may not be as giant as WoW's population but I think it will take a chunk out of WoW's audience that wants that experience. I also think a solid PvP game will do the same and so on. I think the future will show after WoWs big success the days are over when one company holds all the cards. After WoWs success there will be too much competition for the one MMORPG takes all philosphy. I don't think we will see a big giant like WoW again.
WoW won't be killed by another MMORPG it's population will just gradually get lower as more specific MMORPGs targetted towards different crowds take chunks out of it. That is my view on it. MMORPGs are seen as gold mines now and there will be many many in the future. They better start making themselves stand out to a particular audience.
So... you start playing the game with 5 friends. You all level up together for weeks. You die. They keep going. You get to spend a few weeks grinding your toon back up solo.
Unless you can hit max level and get back into the meat of the game within a few days... I just don't see a 'perma-death' death penalty being that great of an option.
Level loss, skill loss, xp loss, item decay, item loss, currency loss??? Lose your estate or all in game property?
...
If you are a newb and you don't want to be killed... you have to pay a 'fee' to a 'clan' or 'guild' for their 'protection'.
Or... if you need to quest in a certain area and it 'belongs' to a certain 'guild' or 'clan'... you have to pay them off so that 1) they won't kill you and/or 2) they will protect you.
So... you start playing the game with 5 friends. You all level up together for weeks. You die. They keep going. You get to spend a few weeks grinding your toon back up solo. Unless you can hit max level and get back into the meat of the game within a few days... I just don't see a 'perma-death' death penalty being that great of an option. Level loss, skill loss, xp loss, item decay, item loss, currency loss??? Lose your estate or all in game property? ... If you are a newb and you don't want to be killed... you have to pay a 'fee' to a 'clan' or 'guild' for their 'protection'. Or... if you need to quest in a certain area and it 'belongs' to a certain 'guild' or 'clan'... you have to pay them off so that 1) they won't kill you and/or 2) they will protect you. Eve Online... Conan style?
My suggestion would be to be less anti social and find a guild that can help support you. This is a MMO right? Tons of people to get along with.
I don't like the example...."You die and your friends leave you in XP dust." If their your friends, they should be helping you catch up.
My suggestion would be to be less anti social and find a guild that can help support you. This is a MMO right? Tons of people to get along with.
I don't like the example...."You die and your friends leave you in XP dust." If their your friends, they should be helping you catch up.
He's just being realistic. And he's right. Maybe in another game, where the entire game is catered to the ideal shallow game play a game with things like Permadeath and the ability to lose all of your gear to death, it would work. But it's simply out of the question in Age of Conan. It would essentially make end-game content unviable, as well as most of the high end crafting items. Not to mention the economy would be non-existent given the nature of it.
You die and have to start over. You're going to die at some point, it's a fact. There are 80 levels in AoC at launch. You've some how made it to 79 without dying then suddenly your game crashes and you're left for dead. What a waste of six months yes? It makes no sense for Age of Conan. For Prema-Death to work the game would have to take 1-2 weeks to reach your max level, and gear would have to play only a small part in the games mechanics for equipment looting to be feasible.
Not enough people want these options to merit a server dedicated to the idea, and by making the game work with it, you're basically cutting out entire portions of the stereotypical MMORPG's game, which in turn loses about 90 percent of the audience. There's not a popular game with these features in it for good reason, it doesn't work for long term fandom.
So... you start playing the game with 5 friends. You all level up together for weeks. You die. They keep going. You get to spend a few weeks grinding your toon back up solo. Unless you can hit max level and get back into the meat of the game within a few days... I just don't see a 'perma-death' death penalty being that great of an option. Level loss, skill loss, xp loss, item decay, item loss, currency loss??? Lose your estate or all in game property? ... If you are a newb and you don't want to be killed... you have to pay a 'fee' to a 'clan' or 'guild' for their 'protection'. Or... if you need to quest in a certain area and it 'belongs' to a certain 'guild' or 'clan'... you have to pay them off so that 1) they won't kill you and/or 2) they will protect you. Eve Online... Conan style?
No one here is arguing for perma-death. Death penalty can mean many things. If you think one death is going to leave you in the dust as you put it, then are mistaken. EQ had death penalities and people died and yet still was able to continue playing with friends. It didn't ruin you it just made you be more cautious. Games need some penalties in place for bad game play. And to the person that acts as if AOC is going to take along time to level in, I would guess that you are wrong.
It is following the most easy game ever to level and that was WoW where levels meant nothing. Leveling is trivial in WoW. I gaurantee AOC will be following the same philosphy easy shallow instant gratification game.
I used the Epeen comment as a direct response to all the "Carebear" type comments directed at me and those that agree with me. It was directed at those players who claim no game or gamer is worthy unless they can survive in a harsh DP enviroment. And yeah the term may have been a teen chat room comment, but we've been using it for about.. oh 10-12 years now.
Poppycock I say to all of that. Timesinks are not a harsh DP. It's an annoyance to see if you have the time, and the willingness to put up with doing MORE work. City of Heroes has the most ANNOYING Timesink in their Debt system. The game is repetitive enough without having to do double duty. BAH.
Now you claimed that there are at least 1,000,000 gamers that would probably like a harsh DP. I say there are 10 million that would never touch that game. Go see which game is going to get made. People inheirently choose the path of least resistance, or in this case, the path of least annoyance. Why do you think WoW is so popular? Which is amusing because they removed the Death timesinks and just tripled it in the end game... haha but I digress. Most of the people ranting about a "harsh DP" would probably play on an AoC "Harsh Server" for a few weeks. Then they'd drift off to the normal servers till only a few hundred were on the "harsh" server. Look at EQ back in it's day. The Rallos Zek server, harshest server of it heyday... always had the lowest population.
It's safe and easy to claim you want to play a "harsh DP" game, and demean those gamers that don't want one, grab the flag of "elite" gamer and mock all others as posers. But we all know such games never will be made again, at least not MMO wise. So come off it, we all know the truth.
First of all i never said that there were 1Million people who would play a game that has harsh death penalties, in fact i said that there would not be 1 Million players in that game. I also said that the people who want little to no death penalty and follow the bouncing ? type quest lines probably number much much more, but why should that mean no games with DPs should be made.
Lets say your thinking is right. WoW has been determined to be the best MMO model because it is grossly popular and brought millions and millions of people into the genre. So now all games should be made as closely to the WoW formula as possible. What will we have at the end of this, alot of WoW copies that nobody plays because they are already playing WoW, a bunch of games that get scrapped because the backers arent willing to put a game out that might not get WoW numbers, and a stagnet, watered down genre that is dying.
Now here is the other side. Im not saying that WoW isnt a good game and that WoW doesnt have a formula for success. Granted alot of WoWs numbers came from an existing player base that came over from there stand alone games but they created a product that would play on anything almost and was very easy to get into. WoW is the perfect casual game (until you get to the end, which only takes a couple months). But there is a pretty significant MMO player base that is not playing WoW and doesnt want to play WoW. How would it be bad business to target this audience vis trying to chip players away from WoW by creating a game that is very WoW like?
There are always going to be games like WoW that are widely popular, but there sould also be games that are more of a niche game for those that dont like what is widely popular. You may think that that is an insignificant number of players but i assure you that it isnt.
And it doesnt matter anyway. You didnt actually want to know why people like more harsh DPs (though i still argue that EQ was not all that harsh), you just wanted to tell those of us who actually did give reasons that we were wrong and SOL.
So hey, maybe you are right and in 5 years this genre will not even really exist anymore except for a game or two, but i hope that i am right and the developers will pull their heads out and remember that not all games have to have a million players and not all games have to be easy hand holding games that really dont require you to "Play" them at all.
I have read a lot of your post and I have to agree with everything you write. Players need to understand not every game should be same. Diversity like you said is a good thing. We have it in single player games and we should as well in MMORPGs. After WoWs big take over in the MMORPG market I feel other companies would be more profitable going after certain type of gamers for their game rather than please them all approach to pull chunks away from the giant. That is how it will be done in the future I believe instead of the please the all approach which in the end gives the player a mediocre experience. There is a audience out there right now that is untapped and that is the crowd that is looking for challenge, harsher penalties, more of an adult mmorpg that takes some time to play. When a company comes around to making this game that is well designed and plays as smooth as WoW does .. you will see a big audience for it. It may not be as giant as WoW's population but I think it will take a chunk out of WoW's audience that wants that experience. I also think a solid PvP game will do the same and so on. I think the future will show after WoWs big success the days are over when one company holds all the cards. After WoWs success there will be too much competition for the one MMORPG takes all philosphy. I don't think we will see a big giant like WoW again. WoW won't be killed by another MMORPG it's population will just gradually get lower as more specific MMORPGs targetted towards different crowds take chunks out of it. That is my view on it. MMORPGs are seen as gold mines now and there will be many many in the future. They better start making themselves stand out to a particular audience.
Thanks qombi. I often find myself nodding while i read your posts as well. And i truely hope you are right on what you said above. I hope that developers figure this out but im very afraid that the WoW money will blind them all.
And for those suggesting Permadeath, i too in no way support Permadeath. While as (I believe) SingsofDeath said "Permadeath is really the only logical DP" i just cant see how that would be all that fun. Im not sure what a harsh DP is but from what i have read alot of people would say that EQ and DAOC had harsh DPs.
This are things that i feel would make a good DP in a PVE style game:
EXP Loss
Level loss (and if this is unexceptable then at 0exp you could go into an exp dept pool) Basically the only difference is you dont lose spells and skills you gained at that level. I would prefer losing the level but the other option is ok.
Corpse Run. You get killed, you pop up at your bind location as close to naked as the game will make you (not as a ghost but as a real live squishy player) and you have to go get your stuff. I understand that at high levels corpse runs can be insane. If your group is wiped at the bottom of a dungeon it can be very tough and time consuming getting your bodies back, so i would be fine with a secondary option where you could go to a temple and pay a HUGE amount of money to have the priests summon your body. This would be very expensive, increase is price as the level goes up, and increase in price depending on how often you have used the service. There should also be classes in the game that have the ability to summon a corpse but it should also be costly, as in requiring a somewhat rare and expensive spell component.
So that is what i feel is a suitable DP for PVE games. Is it harsh, i dont know but im sure you will tell me.
I dont really PVP much but for PVP i would say that for an Honorable kill, i.e. -5 levels to your level and any levels above, you get to loot one item and all coin from the kill.This gives you a trophy but does not totally ruin someones day. Exp lose from a PVP kill im fine with also but again only for an Honorable kill. You should get nothing for killing someone many levels below you, in fact you should be penalized in some way i think. But that is probably just the carebear in me talking.
Comments
You've obviously never lost a capital ship in EVE, or you'd agree that perma death is nothing compared to it.
A Titan's value in ISK (should you chose to buy it by selling GTC's) is probably near $10,000 real world dollars. That's a harsh death penalty. It takes the efforts of many players over many months to even build such a thing, and its much harsher than losing a character.
Though in EVE, losing a high skill point character would hurt far more than most other games, because the training can only be done real-time, and there is no way to accelerate it. Lose a character with 4 years of training, you're talking about a real loss. Lose a WOW character, no big deal, what, takes like 2 months on a bad day to retrain one to max skill level?
So yeah, we are better, just because we're willing to risk more than others. (even if its just time/money)
But that's what makes the game so fun, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
Actually, I know what you are talking about, so let me say that EVE is an exception. I think in an earlier post I also stated that EVE is one of the games with harsh penalties. I do know how ti feels to lose a Titan (was in Cataclysm Enterprises when the D2 Titan got blown outta the sky -.-) so yes, you've got a point. I don't know if I would say it's much harsher than perma-death, I would say that depends on how advanced your character is and how much time you poured into it, right?
And I would still like to point out that it doesn't make you -better- that you are risking more time to put into the game.
After all, we are playing a game and some of us don't spend as much time in it as others. That doesn't make those who spend more time/money on the game better people. More experienced and probably more knowledgeable about the game due to spending more time there, yes, but not -better-. Honestly, this whole attacking back and forth between gamers of different types is just annoying.
You play your game the way you want, the way you have fun and others play it a different way. It's not a better way...just different. Can we agree to that?
PS: To Mr. flame-me who just posted above me: I did not report you. Your nice way of arguing is what got your posts deleted, not me.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I will be honest! I am just hoping that AoC will have any DP at all and the devs are willing to stick to their guns about keeping it.
But I wont hold my breath for it. The trend appears to be against us.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give a fish a man and he will eat for a month!
i just hope its a ffa harsh dp where all the carebears die one time and leave cause they cant stand it...then maybee implement a seperate server for the softies to hold hands and kill mobs
Everyone is for a harsh death penalty... until they die.
"I was afk and this #$)(&%*$)*%$$% killed me!!!"
"I hit a lag spike and $)#*%)*%)*%$ died!!!!!!!!!"
"I was jumped by 5 people and they killed me and took all of the stuff I played for #*%$)*%)@% hours for."
"He was obviously hacking."
All of the usual 'reasons' that someone dies in a game.
...
I would be for a death penalty... IF...
If you died and your corpse was looted... then a bounty could be issued. Upon completion of the 'mark' being killed, your items were returned to your 'house' (your family, more or less). Your 'new toon' could use them if/when they hit the required level... as heirlooms, of sorts.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die."
...
But seriously, if you want a 'harsh' death penalty... impose one on yourself! Delete your toon when you die... no matter what game you are playing. Give it a try.
Everyone who plays WoW... the next time you die in a battleground or arena... delete your toon. Hang it up. Probably wouldn't sit well, eh?
or rant on forums with an online tough guy persona,eh?
here it is plain and simple...if u do not like pvp and death penaltys in a game DO NOT PLAY...dont ruin it for others who agree and like the game just gtfo and let the pvpers enjoy themselves or come and play with us and be our tools
when did i say that i didnt like pvp?
Im playing a harcore elite (permadeath) character in Mythos right now..which is also getting open pvp any day soon.
No need to get all angry...tough guy
if i had it my way your mothly fee of the game would be determined by how many people u scrubbed or how many times u were scrubbed...lets say 1 dollar for everytime u hit the dirt that month is your mothly fee and make it ffa pvp where grievers can just kick your butt 24/7 take your gear carry your body to a cliff and throw it off and make u find it in the bottom of the ocean b4 u can respawn
I really like how the people who want a DP in a game are considered insulting on this thread yet you group everyone who wants one as EPEEN. First of all i had to look up EPEEN because i no idea what it meant. And i see that it was basically invented by teenagers for Chat rooms, way to show your maturity. And i guarentee you that i dont want a stiff DP because i want to prove my penis is bigger they yours or anyone elses, im married with 3 kids, my days of worrying about that are long gone. And i dont PVP much so im not worried about gloating over killing you.
Then you make the 100% accurate statement that harsh DPs are dead and gone and there is not profitable market for a game with them. Actually that is wrong (which you should be able to tell by the response on your own thread), is there a 1 Million player base market for one, probably not, but you dont need 1 million players to be profitable do you, no 250000 will make you plenty of money. Then you go on to say that since AOC is being built to play on the 360 it will cater to the casual crowd, quoting that FFXI did the same thing. Well you are right, FFXI did go for the console crowd, yet it was in no way casual and had a pretty stiff death penalty.
Then you finish with "You want a harsh DP, go play D&D with some friends"
So how about "You dont want a harsh DP, go play WoW, or EQ2, or LOTR, or COX, or Vanguard, or current EQ, etc etc.
After my rant i figured i would post something perhaps a little constructive.
This is why i feel DPs add to a game. I want to feel actual emotion when i am playing a game, i want it to be more then just playing a game, i can play Sims or something if i just want to play a game. I dont think, at least i havent had it happen, that you can get real emotions in a game without some fear. I have figured out that the best times i had in EQ, and to a lesser extent DAOC, was when i was actually a bit afraid of what i was doing. I was a bit scared when i went into Mistymoore the first time, i was a bit scared when i went into SOL A/B the first time, i was a bit scared when i went into GUK the first time, Karnors Castle, Kith Forest, Befallen, etc etc. My heart was actually racing. There was a fear of the unknown in EQ, you just didnt run into a cave in EQ because you didnt know if you were going to die once in there. I had to run through Kael with my Druid so i could get the scroll for the Wakening Lands ring and i was actually scared that my Camo would wear off, the giants didnt like me much. Then when half way through it started blinking i really got scared and had to find a corner somewhere to hide so i could recast it. Actual fear adds something to the game. And you dont have fear if you arent afraid to die.
Once i found out that dying meant nothing in WoW i wasnt scarred of anything. I wasnt worried about going anywhere. If i saw a cave a ran into it, if i died then i knew not to go in there again for a few levels but that was pretty much it. Death was simply a gage on how your tactics worked. Hmm, i died, i guess i will try it with this tactic this time.
I dont know if people still do this in WoW but when i was playing death was a form of faster travel. I was getting directions to somewhere and the guy actually said i should run into the zone until i get killed, i will then pop up at a certain graveyard which is closer to the other side of the zone then what i would make running. There were most likely three of these death jumps in my trip and that was perfectly exceptable. I chose not to make the trip. Death should never be a convienence.
Pain of death gives you a respect for a game. True when you die due to computer problems or someone elses stupidity that sucks but come on, this is a game. All the death will do is make you play the game a bit longer. I tend not to play games that i dont like (at least for long) so having to play it a bit longer really isnt going to bother me much. If it bothers you too much then you probably dont enjoy the game, you arent in it to play, you are in it to finish.
But im not trying to sell anyone on harsh DPs. You dont like them that is fine, there are plenty of games for you to chose from. What i dont like is that anytime a game goes into development that seems to cater to those that like DPs the forum gets bombarded with people saying who DPs suck and no body likes them, etc etc. And sadly the Devs usually fold to this. Vanguard did it, it looks like Conan is going to do it. There can be different games that cater to different people on the market, they all dont have to have WoWs DP, they all dont have to have quest lines where you follow the bouncing question mark from 1-50. I/We are not trying to get Blizzard to make a harsh DP in WoW, we would just like it if a game comes out saying that they they are going to have DPs and what many call Timesinks you let them because there is an audience for it.
I guess I am on the evil side.
I'm a complete advocate of what is most likely usually considered a somewhat severe death penalty. No perma-death. Just xp loss, maybe some equip and/or currency loss in PvP. The lack of a death penalty that demands compromise in gameplay simply brings about mindlessness and promotes thoughtless skills and strategies, a la World of Warcraft.
For a lot of us, it's not about epeens.
It's about intelligence. It's about challenging ourselves. Yes, these things are considered fun to some of us.
The aim of the death penalty is to bring to the player a sense of discretion. A 30 second jog with no possible danger via ghost form to your corpse is a sad, complete bull**** excuse for a death penalty. I mean, that's such a watered down consequence, it shouldn't even exist. It has no point. There is no incentive to strive to survive and/or play intelligently when what you're risking is a very brief amount of time.
The idea of no death penalty just completely boggles my mind. Do you want to be spoon fed the entire game? How about the developers level your character for you?? Then, they can just hand out the best gear to anyone who simply logs in... And it's done. The game, the journey, the challenge; it's all completed without an ounce of effort or involvement on your part. We hope the glow of the monitor provides a nice massage for your brain while you sit and stare.
That leads me to a question for anyone who doesn't want a death penalty: Why do you play MMORPGs?? They're games BASED around these things: Character progression, journeys, investment, challenges. You really want your cake and you want to eat it too, huh? The least you could do is stick to other games and not have the MMORPG market watered down to coma-inducing simplicity and ease.
Sadly, wanting to involve a challenging environment demanding mental investment in video games leaves me in the new minority, and World of Warcraft continues to sell.
Even more sadly, I think this says a lot more about a lazy culture of instant gratification than just a simple video game trend.
Flame on.
The point was, at least to my understanding, to discuss -why- people like Harsh DP's and why others don't like them. Statements were made and flames were the result. I honestly can't be bothered to go through the entire thread to find all the bashing that was going back and forth, but fact remains, that people get attacked for their view on how they enjoy a game and why they enjoy it that way. Plus, the attitude of many people believing their playstyle to be -BETTER- than that of others (and please note, I am not pointing fingers at any one group or person here).
Regarding AoC, as far as I understand, they never said what kind of DP's they had in mind, they officially stated however, that they are still debating this and will eventually release info on it. So it makes no sense to complain that Dev's are folding to this, since no official announcement was made yet. You can still hope for harsh DP's and those who don't like them can hope for none, or light ones.
I myself will sit back and wait till an announcement is made and eventually play the game. With or without harsh DP's and I will have fun in both possible versions. Cheers!
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
SWG's death pen was the best.
You are right, the flame war that insued was ridiculous. But i really doubt that the OP really wanted to hear reasons why people want a harsher DP in games. Actual reasons which sound valid have been given but they are met with ridicule.
This is why it is really an issue for me. I can understand why some dont want a harsh DP, alot of the crowd that started with EQ, UO, AC dont have the time they once did to play video games and a harsh DP makes the time they have seem less. I can understand that, though i dont share in it, i also have less time to play games then i did when i started EQ, actually it is more that i choose to play less because i probably could play for 4-5 hours a day still, i just dont want to. At best i will probably play a game 5-8 hours a week now, if that, and i still want a game like EQ vis a game like WoW.
The new crowd is what bothers me. The crowd that never played a game with a harsh DP, the crowd that started with say EQ2, WoW or LoTRs. Now every game has to be like those and since the community who plays MMOs has grown so much due to this new crowd they have a large voice which the Devs tend to listen to. 5 years ago the MMO community was content having games that catered to different playstyles, sure we talked smack about each other but we didnt really try to change games. That isnt the case now. Now a game goes into development and they post what they are planning on having in the game and it gets jumped on by a pack of wolves. There seems to be a set formula now for games and if it is deviated from the game gets destroyed. PoTBS gets destroyed in the forums yet there are people who enjoy it, and enough people to make the game profitable. TR is the same way. These two games are different from the WoW formula so they get destroyed on the boards. I dont care for either of them myself but i truely hope that they succeed because if they get shut down due to all the naysayers then it is just one more step in the direction of all MMOs being WoW clones because no one is willing to try something different.
Not all games have to be the same, nor should they. Diversity is the best thing that could happen to this genre.
love that show mate, miss it though!
love that show mate, miss it though!
What do you get it on in canada?BBC worldwide or something?It'll be back for a few series yet,its been milked like crazy over here...
SAFWD:
I used the Epeen comment as a direct response to all the "Carebear" type comments directed at me and those that agree with me. It was directed at those players who claim no game or gamer is worthy unless they can survive in a harsh DP enviroment. And yeah the term may have been a teen chat room comment, but we've been using it for about.. oh 10-12 years now.
Poppycock I say to all of that. Timesinks are not a harsh DP. It's an annoyance to see if you have the time, and the willingness to put up with doing MORE work. City of Heroes has the most ANNOYING Timesink in their Debt system. The game is repetitive enough without having to do double duty. BAH.
Now you claimed that there are at least 1,000,000 gamers that would probably like a harsh DP. I say there are 10 million that would never touch that game. Go see which game is going to get made. People inheirently choose the path of least resistance, or in this case, the path of least annoyance. Why do you think WoW is so popular? Which is amusing because they removed the Death timesinks and just tripled it in the end game... haha but I digress. Most of the people ranting about a "harsh DP" would probably play on an AoC "Harsh Server" for a few weeks. Then they'd drift off to the normal servers till only a few hundred were on the "harsh" server. Look at EQ back in it's day. The Rallos Zek server, harshest server of it heyday... always had the lowest population.
It's safe and easy to claim you want to play a "harsh DP" game, and demean those gamers that don't want one, grab the flag of "elite" gamer and mock all others as posers. But we all know such games never will be made again, at least not MMO wise. So come off it, we all know the truth.
Always change your signature.
A game like that will be made again friend, times are changing again. More and more gamers are getting easily bored with the ease of todays games. Your right death penaltys are just time sinks, but thats just the "same old, same old" labelling that people are using these days when they miss the point of the old style games. What would you prefer in a death penalty? an electric shock? not possible im afraid so the easiest way is to make players not want to die! add a time sink. i played many games where players ran through a dungeon died and didnt care because they would stand up and be fine within minutes.
In old eq death penaltys were not just a case of go and get your body back, you could die at a dragons feet. then it took tactics and organisatioon to get it back, your reward for time spent you ask? simple accomplishement
games back then were not all about gaining a level and getting loot. it was about playing a game!
Experience loss with possible level loss is more than just a time sink. If people are dumb enough to keep trying the same event, the same way that they end up loosing a level and leaving the game, I don't mind. A significant DP (not gold, you can buy that) helps promote group interaction. It also helps promote grouping in general as it is less risky.
They basically want to feel like they are:
I have read a lot of your post and I have to agree with everything you write. Players need to understand not every game should be same. Diversity like you said is a good thing. We have it in single player games and we should as well in MMORPGs. After WoWs big take over in the MMORPG market I feel other companies would be more profitable going after certain type of gamers for their game rather than please them all approach to pull chunks away from the giant. That is how it will be done in the future I believe instead of the please the all approach which in the end gives the player a mediocre experience.
There is a audience out there right now that is untapped and that is the crowd that is looking for challenge, harsher penalties, more of an adult mmorpg that takes some time to play. When a company comes around to making this game that is well designed and plays as smooth as WoW does .. you will see a big audience for it. It may not be as giant as WoW's population but I think it will take a chunk out of WoW's audience that wants that experience. I also think a solid PvP game will do the same and so on. I think the future will show after WoWs big success the days are over when one company holds all the cards. After WoWs success there will be too much competition for the one MMORPG takes all philosphy. I don't think we will see a big giant like WoW again.
WoW won't be killed by another MMORPG it's population will just gradually get lower as more specific MMORPGs targetted towards different crowds take chunks out of it. That is my view on it. MMORPGs are seen as gold mines now and there will be many many in the future. They better start making themselves stand out to a particular audience.
So... you start playing the game with 5 friends. You all level up together for weeks. You die. They keep going. You get to spend a few weeks grinding your toon back up solo.
Unless you can hit max level and get back into the meat of the game within a few days... I just don't see a 'perma-death' death penalty being that great of an option.
Level loss, skill loss, xp loss, item decay, item loss, currency loss??? Lose your estate or all in game property?
...
If you are a newb and you don't want to be killed... you have to pay a 'fee' to a 'clan' or 'guild' for their 'protection'.
Or... if you need to quest in a certain area and it 'belongs' to a certain 'guild' or 'clan'... you have to pay them off so that 1) they won't kill you and/or 2) they will protect you.
Eve Online... Conan style?
I don't like the example...."You die and your friends leave you in XP dust." If their your friends, they should be helping you catch up.
He's just being realistic. And he's right. Maybe in another game, where the entire game is catered to the ideal shallow game play a game with things like Permadeath and the ability to lose all of your gear to death, it would work. But it's simply out of the question in Age of Conan. It would essentially make end-game content unviable, as well as most of the high end crafting items. Not to mention the economy would be non-existent given the nature of it.
You die and have to start over. You're going to die at some point, it's a fact. There are 80 levels in AoC at launch. You've some how made it to 79 without dying then suddenly your game crashes and you're left for dead. What a waste of six months yes? It makes no sense for Age of Conan. For Prema-Death to work the game would have to take 1-2 weeks to reach your max level, and gear would have to play only a small part in the games mechanics for equipment looting to be feasible.
Not enough people want these options to merit a server dedicated to the idea, and by making the game work with it, you're basically cutting out entire portions of the stereotypical MMORPG's game, which in turn loses about 90 percent of the audience. There's not a popular game with these features in it for good reason, it doesn't work for long term fandom.
No one here is arguing for perma-death. Death penalty can mean many things. If you think one death is going to leave you in the dust as you put it, then are mistaken. EQ had death penalities and people died and yet still was able to continue playing with friends. It didn't ruin you it just made you be more cautious. Games need some penalties in place for bad game play. And to the person that acts as if AOC is going to take along time to level in, I would guess that you are wrong.
It is following the most easy game ever to level and that was WoW where levels meant nothing. Leveling is trivial in WoW. I gaurantee AOC will be following the same philosphy easy shallow instant gratification game.
Lets say your thinking is right. WoW has been determined to be the best MMO model because it is grossly popular and brought millions and millions of people into the genre. So now all games should be made as closely to the WoW formula as possible. What will we have at the end of this, alot of WoW copies that nobody plays because they are already playing WoW, a bunch of games that get scrapped because the backers arent willing to put a game out that might not get WoW numbers, and a stagnet, watered down genre that is dying.
Now here is the other side. Im not saying that WoW isnt a good game and that WoW doesnt have a formula for success. Granted alot of WoWs numbers came from an existing player base that came over from there stand alone games but they created a product that would play on anything almost and was very easy to get into. WoW is the perfect casual game (until you get to the end, which only takes a couple months). But there is a pretty significant MMO player base that is not playing WoW and doesnt want to play WoW. How would it be bad business to target this audience vis trying to chip players away from WoW by creating a game that is very WoW like?
There are always going to be games like WoW that are widely popular, but there sould also be games that are more of a niche game for those that dont like what is widely popular. You may think that that is an insignificant number of players but i assure you that it isnt.
And it doesnt matter anyway. You didnt actually want to know why people like more harsh DPs (though i still argue that EQ was not all that harsh), you just wanted to tell those of us who actually did give reasons that we were wrong and SOL.
So hey, maybe you are right and in 5 years this genre will not even really exist anymore except for a game or two, but i hope that i am right and the developers will pull their heads out and remember that not all games have to have a million players and not all games have to be easy hand holding games that really dont require you to "Play" them at all.
And for those suggesting Permadeath, i too in no way support Permadeath. While as (I believe) SingsofDeath said "Permadeath is really the only logical DP" i just cant see how that would be all that fun. Im not sure what a harsh DP is but from what i have read alot of people would say that EQ and DAOC had harsh DPs.
This are things that i feel would make a good DP in a PVE style game:
EXP Loss
Level loss (and if this is unexceptable then at 0exp you could go into an exp dept pool) Basically the only difference is you dont lose spells and skills you gained at that level. I would prefer losing the level but the other option is ok.
Corpse Run. You get killed, you pop up at your bind location as close to naked as the game will make you (not as a ghost but as a real live squishy player) and you have to go get your stuff. I understand that at high levels corpse runs can be insane. If your group is wiped at the bottom of a dungeon it can be very tough and time consuming getting your bodies back, so i would be fine with a secondary option where you could go to a temple and pay a HUGE amount of money to have the priests summon your body. This would be very expensive, increase is price as the level goes up, and increase in price depending on how often you have used the service. There should also be classes in the game that have the ability to summon a corpse but it should also be costly, as in requiring a somewhat rare and expensive spell component.
So that is what i feel is a suitable DP for PVE games. Is it harsh, i dont know but im sure you will tell me.
I dont really PVP much but for PVP i would say that for an Honorable kill, i.e. -5 levels to your level and any levels above, you get to loot one item and all coin from the kill.This gives you a trophy but does not totally ruin someones day. Exp lose from a PVP kill im fine with also but again only for an Honorable kill. You should get nothing for killing someone many levels below you, in fact you should be penalized in some way i think. But that is probably just the carebear in me talking.