I Agree with you on the total save zone problem with neocron. (mind you, I abused it also myself)
But there are alot of more dynamic ingame solutions to create a corridor of near-total safety for lowbies and alike.
Guarded caravans heading for certain systems. Rentable guard npc's (who you naturally sacrifice to get away) and lowlevel 'get away quick' items which might cost money but might get you to finish the transport which earns you more money then the trip costs.
And then there's the social aspect, you can ask for protection for a small percentage of the profit.
The effort people put into skills to hunt you down, should be equal to the effort to prevent them from killing you (scaled to proper proportions since we are talking about lowbies).
Pulling this out of my hat, lets say lowbies have small ships, and small ships can be easier protected by a forcefield, or cloacked, or accelerated. This means lowbies can take bigger countermeasures compared to higher level players.
Thinking purely in numbers, this should make it possible for a lvl 30 and a lvl 5 to match eatchother in the position of hunter and prey given thesame timespan to work on it.
After a month of work, the lvl 30 can either managed to get bigger missles, or the device for scrambling a warpfield.
In that same month, the lvl 5 should be able to save up for the warpfield-overdrive device, or the shield-booster.
Both took a month, and both ended neck to neck in the battle between prey and hunter.
Ingame solutions to near-safety. That would be nice imo.
That is especially true with the space theme. I think most people who enjoy the space theme would prefer a space "simulation" to a space arcade game with unrealistic rules.
Frankly, I would provide servers that have very limited PVP , as found with WOW with the exceptioni of consensual PvP and a few, and I mean few, zones for PVP. Some servers can be very PVP oriented. This way everyone gets their wish.
Frankly, I can't see why folks like PVP. If it were one on one with an honorable duel, I wouldn't be against it. However, more ofen than not , it becomes cowardly combat with six ships taking on one ship in a gank fest or you would see higher level ships taking on lower levels. This is honorable or fun?
It is the job of governments to provide a safe place for commerce. For a price. (Read Taxes)
Inside the Empire or whatever, safe and taxed. (Needs to be significant amount) Outside of Empire, no taxes and ffa pvp. Perhaps in degrees. Able to join convoys for safe travel. (or at least some protection provided) Able to hire wingmen. Perhaps provide gathering place and organized way for merchants to set up convoys outside Empire.
This way the pvpers can try different methods to break the convoy. Could be very exciting to play. Size of convoy means more protection, but more loot.
Why safe inside the Empire? Game can join Eve with 250k subscribers. Or can join Wow (safe pve environement) 10 million subscribers. If you were a business person where would you put your money?
It is the job of governments to provide a safe place for commerce. For a price. (Read Taxes) Inside the Empire or whatever, safe and taxed. (Needs to be significant amount) Outside of Empire, no taxes and ffa pvp. Perhaps in degrees. Able to join convoys for safe travel. (or at least some protection provided) Able to hire wingmen. Perhaps provide gathering place and organized way for merchants to set up convoys outside Empire. This way the pvpers can try different methods to break the convoy. Could be very exciting to play. Size of convoy means more protection, but more loot. Why safe inside the Empire? Game can join Eve with 250k subscribers. Or can join Wow (safe pve environement) 10 million subscribers. If you were a business person where would you put your money? Please Discuss
Totally agreed.
Love your idea.. it can turn out very exciting to play and provides a good way for both kinds of players.
If you were a developer and you had to build in safe zones so that new players were safe from PK'ers, what would you do?
I wouldn't have safe zones, but will have a promotion system for PvPers. Anyone wanting to be bad assed space pirates and all can op for the skill class to become one. Those who have the ability can go after likely skilled opponents.
Why?
Because PvPing is suppose to be of players with combat skills that are better than preying on n00bs (for developers that's your cash inflow). They're suppose to be the grownups who go after challenges, as it's the edge a true fighter craves.
What happens in these games when there are PvP zones is that some n00b will venture in a territory because they are new, get killed, loose everything then come to that viper pit you call a forum. What will that subscriber's experience be? How long do you think they'll remain a subscriber?
The best game allows both to interact in the same world, where the boundaries aren't big red x's and flashing warnings. It's very possible to code a lock/unlock PvP system, and leave all the danger zone coding out of the way -- since there should be enough PvE danger zones as it is.
MMOs that have good PvE remain successful. MMOs that have open PvP have very low subscribers -- as subscribers don't feel it's very fun being stalked in a game to blow their fun on their dime, afterall.
MMOs that have good PvE remain successful. MMOs that have open PvP have very low subscribers -- as subscribers don't feel it's very fun being stalked in a game to blow their fun on their dime, afterall.
WoW had Open PvP and was very successful from the beginning.
Besides, I have yet to meet one guy who unsubbed because he was ganked too much. Maybe... maybe... those guys are the same guys who unsub because they didn't have any friends in game...
So many misconceptions about MMOs have been "accepted" by the majority, it's getting kinda ridiculous.
Originally posted by admiralnlson WoW had Open PvP and was very successful from the beginning.
It wasn't successful, as WoW removed it from the masses. The result is it's the most popular videogame to date.
Why?
Because everyone can play without getting frustrated because some punk thinks spoiling their fun is fun. Sociopaths really shouldn't be online playing, they should be thinking of Bubba in jail, instead.
Originally posted by admiralnlson Besides, I have yet to meet one guy who unsubbed because he was ganked too much.
Don't try to tell devs that is the truth, as they'll laugh in your face. Their customer support gets plenty of unsub requests over PvP, more so than those whining about keeping PvP.
Again, the reason why there's not many open PvP games is because folks don't want to be abused and PAYING FOR IT. It's why devs split the PvP and PvE content, so PvE players (the majority) can play without encountering sociopaths.
If all you do is craft or bake or sell or kill NPCs for goods to craft, bake and sell, and that's what you like to play, you WILL NOT tolerate PvPers ruining your fun. Fun that only MMOs (and MUDs) offer, as no other game allows crafting, baking and selling.
PvP is a nasty world of malcontents. They think it's fun killing n00bs and that it shows their special skills (of cowardly junior high fighting). When PvP was more honorable early in gaming history, they went after each other and the uber beasts, since they had to prove they were the best warriors. Today, 15 year-old Johnny Flunkie is a PvPer who doesn't have one ounce of self-esteem, so raiding Miss Goldilocks on an alchemy run is what he considers "l33t".
Because PvPers don't police themselves with a code of conduct fitting of the best warriors (as most are playing sociopaths who careless about rules), devs have no choice but to seperate them harshly -- that's if they want to make a living, let alone their MMO survive longer than game patches (2 years).
Eve has other things that keep it afloat (like it's real time economy), as it's a unique game by MMO standards. But MMOs of other types like fantasy and cyberpunk, don't last long if the sociopaths rule the server. It'll dwindle to what we have now with 101 MMOs on life support.
That is just my opinion and undobtedly I will get flak for it.
No one should get flak for stating a need for their own fun in a game. If these sociopaths bully on forums, they will bully in games, and we know how a playground with bullies becomes.
I careless about bullies, as I'd snip their balls off. But I'm also an honorable warrior that doesn't believe in killing and harassing new players, as it disgraces the ranks of warriors. Killing Bambi doesn't prove prowness, as much as running around with it's head shows the killer is "l33t". Slaying the Red Dragon with but their sword solo, in a battle for over 20 painful minutes, IS the mark of a fine warrior. He can fight by his own devices, without backup, and he does it for a real challenge.
One thing I liked about the game Oblivion, is they stressed that those in the warrior guild to be law abiding honorable warriors. If you robbed and murdered a civilian, you'd disgrace the ranks, and denied entry unless you pay the consequences. The same is said of other noble warriors, and why chivarly was developed.
In a space game chivarly isn't dead, because the marks of good warriors are universal.
Even Himmler's SS (evil as it gets) had standards for it's most evil soldiers.
Because it's a fool's errand to get playing sociopaths to follow any standards, the best that can be done is separate the two game types. If PvPers cry that they don't have easy pickings, then they were never destined to be warriors in the first place. Bambi killers aren't but barge waste, and even warriors tire of their whining. They're the lowest rung on the ladder anyway, expendable cannon fodder.
In FPS games I'm a coldest killer around, but in MMOs/MUDs I like to play crafting and being a merchant, as this is the only genre that has something more than fighting. Don't believe I'm the only fighter in one genre, who wants to bakes cookies in another.
If you were a developer and you had to build in safe zones so that new players were safe from PK'ers, what would you do?
I'd make battlefields like in WoW, and plenty of them.
Instanced area's for PvP where like powered players would be free to engage in challenging PvP gametypes, free from gankers, free from organising raid groups, free from carebears.
A place where competition and like minded players could be met quickly and easily. And I'd take notes from the top PvP games on the market, games like Battlefield, Planetside and Quake Wars and make Battlefields with sophisticated scenarios involving multiple objectives and encouraging and rewarding teamplay.
Further to this I would add exclusive PvP specific items and advancements to thses area's so that annoying carebears couldn't just waltz in and over power everyone with their uber lasers.
In short i would create a war zone. A specific PvP orientated area of the game that in no way effected the rest of the universe outside. With it's own combat mechanics so that it could be tweaked and balanced and nerfed on it's own specific mechanic free from the interference of carebear requirements. Untouched by compromise.
If possible, I would make this shard cross server, so that the warzones would all be full. So that the like minded players could always find a full crowd, day, night or timezone. So that I could see my statistics and compare my achievements on a single scoreboard against all the other PvP players around the world.
And then a little way into launch I would start opening PvP only servers, with no safe zones. So that once people had levelled up their toons to max in carebearland, they could migrate to the dangers of PvP world, without ever having to be perma-ganked. So that the battle to be commenced with everyone on a more even footing with out all the frustration. Allow them to gain the added enjoyment of exploring the gamecontent in a much more precarious scenario.
I would also add a consentual flag, for those people who are intrested in PvPing in world area's or dueling etc. In fact I would add a few different flavours of consentual flag. A permadeath flag, and a full looting flag for example. So that those who wished to play for higher stakes were free to do so at will. So that the available penalties and stakes were as high or as low as each player choses to take them on their own whimsy.
Just give the players all the options and let the sandbox gametype decide. Perhaps flags that cannot be removed for long period of time. Set yourself to full looting for a week. Or a month. As far as possible to allow each and every player as much choice over the penalty system/difficulty settings he wishes to play, and balance the loot/advancement tree to each one.
So that the permadeath/full looting/always PvPed guy goes up levels faster, gets more money and access to better weapons quicker, but risks getting nowehere in the game at all.
PvP specific skills like flag detection. Access to a satelitte system that announced the location of other permadeath/full loot players so that they could bounty hunt each other around the galaxy.
Maybe PvP specific factions. With faction houses whose defences are flag specific and destroyable. A couple of full loot permadeath faction house, a couple of no loot no permadeath factions etc. Each with their own weapon systems and defences that do custom damage to their specified enemy systems.
All the while, harmless little carebears drifting around in the background. Harmless interactive eye candy. Potering about on their little missions, exploring, crafting, battling anomalies and invading hordes. Pirate dreadnoughts and tresure hunting. Gambling in bars. Mining away. Cracking jokes and raiding against spacemonsters with their alien specific weapons that don't do much damage to anything else.
With their own sets of sensors that target resources or PvE mob types. Their types of PvE specific missiles and shields. Running quests and answering distress beacons. Following story lines and flying into ambushes they can beat. Minelaying and fortifying their faction homes against PvE threat.
Comments
But there are alot of more dynamic ingame solutions to create a corridor of near-total safety for lowbies and alike.
Guarded caravans heading for certain systems. Rentable guard npc's (who you naturally sacrifice to get away) and lowlevel 'get away quick' items which might cost money but might get you to finish the transport which earns you more money then the trip costs.
And then there's the social aspect, you can ask for protection for a small percentage of the profit.
The effort people put into skills to hunt you down, should be equal to the effort to prevent them from killing you (scaled to proper proportions since we are talking about lowbies).
Pulling this out of my hat, lets say lowbies have small ships, and small ships can be easier protected by a forcefield, or cloacked, or accelerated. This means lowbies can take bigger countermeasures compared to higher level players.
Thinking purely in numbers, this should make it possible for a lvl 30 and a lvl 5 to match eatchother in the position of hunter and prey given thesame timespan to work on it.
After a month of work, the lvl 30 can either managed to get bigger missles, or the device for scrambling a warpfield.
In that same month, the lvl 5 should be able to save up for the warpfield-overdrive device, or the shield-booster.
Both took a month, and both ended neck to neck in the battle between prey and hunter.
Ingame solutions to near-safety. That would be nice imo.
/agree
That is especially true with the space theme.
I think most people who enjoy the space theme would prefer a space "simulation" to a space arcade game with unrealistic rules.
---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
Frankly, I would provide servers that have very limited PVP , as found with WOW with the exceptioni of consensual PvP and a few, and I mean few, zones for PVP. Some servers can be very PVP oriented. This way everyone gets their wish.
Frankly, I can't see why folks like PVP. If it were one on one with an honorable duel, I wouldn't be against it. However, more ofen than not , it becomes cowardly combat with six ships taking on one ship in a gank fest or you would see higher level ships taking on lower levels. This is honorable or fun?
It is the job of governments to provide a safe place for commerce. For a price. (Read Taxes)
Inside the Empire or whatever, safe and taxed. (Needs to be significant amount) Outside of Empire, no taxes and ffa pvp. Perhaps in degrees. Able to join convoys for safe travel. (or at least some protection provided) Able to hire wingmen. Perhaps provide gathering place and organized way for merchants to set up convoys outside Empire.
This way the pvpers can try different methods to break the convoy. Could be very exciting to play. Size of convoy means more protection, but more loot.
Why safe inside the Empire? Game can join Eve with 250k subscribers. Or can join Wow (safe pve environement) 10 million subscribers. If you were a business person where would you put your money?
Please Discuss
Love your idea.. it can turn out very exciting to play and provides a good way for both kinds of players.
Totally agree with you too.
I hope devs and PvE players realize the potential of sandbox games one day (before I get to senile to play games please
).
---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
Why?
Because PvPing is suppose to be of players with combat skills that are better than preying on n00bs (for developers that's your cash inflow). They're suppose to be the grownups who go after challenges, as it's the edge a true fighter craves.
What happens in these games when there are PvP zones is that some n00b will venture in a territory because they are new, get killed, loose everything then come to that viper pit you call a forum. What will that subscriber's experience be? How long do you think they'll remain a subscriber?
The best game allows both to interact in the same world, where the boundaries aren't big red x's and flashing warnings. It's very possible to code a lock/unlock PvP system, and leave all the danger zone coding out of the way -- since there should be enough PvE danger zones as it is.
MMOs that have good PvE remain successful. MMOs that have open PvP have very low subscribers -- as subscribers don't feel it's very fun being stalked in a game to blow their fun on their dime, afterall.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Besides, I have yet to meet one guy who unsubbed because he was ganked too much.
Maybe... maybe... those guys are the same guys who unsub because they didn't have any friends in game...
So many misconceptions about MMOs have been "accepted" by the majority, it's getting kinda ridiculous.
---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
I would suggest having separate PvP and PvE servers or a clear divide between PvP and PvE zones.
That is just my opinion and undobtedly I will get flak for it.
It wasn't successful, as WoW removed it from the masses. The result is it's the most popular videogame to date.
Why?
Because everyone can play without getting frustrated because some punk thinks spoiling their fun is fun. Sociopaths really shouldn't be online playing, they should be thinking of Bubba in jail, instead.
Don't try to tell devs that is the truth, as they'll laugh in your face. Their customer support gets plenty of unsub requests over PvP, more so than those whining about keeping PvP.
Again, the reason why there's not many open PvP games is because folks don't want to be abused and PAYING FOR IT. It's why devs split the PvP and PvE content, so PvE players (the majority) can play without encountering sociopaths.
If all you do is craft or bake or sell or kill NPCs for goods to craft, bake and sell, and that's what you like to play, you WILL NOT tolerate PvPers ruining your fun. Fun that only MMOs (and MUDs) offer, as no other game allows crafting, baking and selling.
PvP is a nasty world of malcontents. They think it's fun killing n00bs and that it shows their special skills (of cowardly junior high fighting). When PvP was more honorable early in gaming history, they went after each other and the uber beasts, since they had to prove they were the best warriors. Today, 15 year-old Johnny Flunkie is a PvPer who doesn't have one ounce of self-esteem, so raiding Miss Goldilocks on an alchemy run is what he considers "l33t".
Because PvPers don't police themselves with a code of conduct fitting of the best warriors (as most are playing sociopaths who careless about rules), devs have no choice but to seperate them harshly -- that's if they want to make a living, let alone their MMO survive longer than game patches (2 years).
Eve has other things that keep it afloat (like it's real time economy), as it's a unique game by MMO standards. But MMOs of other types like fantasy and cyberpunk, don't last long if the sociopaths rule the server. It'll dwindle to what we have now with 101 MMOs on life support.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
No one should get flak for stating a need for their own fun in a game. If these sociopaths bully on forums, they will bully in games, and we know how a playground with bullies becomes.
I careless about bullies, as I'd snip their balls off. But I'm also an honorable warrior that doesn't believe in killing and harassing new players, as it disgraces the ranks of warriors. Killing Bambi doesn't prove prowness, as much as running around with it's head shows the killer is "l33t". Slaying the Red Dragon with but their sword solo, in a battle for over 20 painful minutes, IS the mark of a fine warrior. He can fight by his own devices, without backup, and he does it for a real challenge.
One thing I liked about the game Oblivion, is they stressed that those in the warrior guild to be law abiding honorable warriors. If you robbed and murdered a civilian, you'd disgrace the ranks, and denied entry unless you pay the consequences. The same is said of other noble warriors, and why chivarly was developed.
In a space game chivarly isn't dead, because the marks of good warriors are universal.
Even Himmler's SS (evil as it gets) had standards for it's most evil soldiers.
Because it's a fool's errand to get playing sociopaths to follow any standards, the best that can be done is separate the two game types. If PvPers cry that they don't have easy pickings, then they were never destined to be warriors in the first place. Bambi killers aren't but barge waste, and even warriors tire of their whining. They're the lowest rung on the ladder anyway, expendable cannon fodder.
In FPS games I'm a coldest killer around, but in MMOs/MUDs I like to play crafting and being a merchant, as this is the only genre that has something more than fighting. Don't believe I'm the only fighter in one genre, who wants to bakes cookies in another.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I'd make battlefields like in WoW, and plenty of them.
Instanced area's for PvP where like powered players would be free to engage in challenging PvP gametypes, free from gankers, free from organising raid groups, free from carebears.
A place where competition and like minded players could be met quickly and easily. And I'd take notes from the top PvP games on the market, games like Battlefield, Planetside and Quake Wars and make Battlefields with sophisticated scenarios involving multiple objectives and encouraging and rewarding teamplay.
Further to this I would add exclusive PvP specific items and advancements to thses area's so that annoying carebears couldn't just waltz in and over power everyone with their uber lasers.
In short i would create a war zone. A specific PvP orientated area of the game that in no way effected the rest of the universe outside. With it's own combat mechanics so that it could be tweaked and balanced and nerfed on it's own specific mechanic free from the interference of carebear requirements. Untouched by compromise.
If possible, I would make this shard cross server, so that the warzones would all be full. So that the like minded players could always find a full crowd, day, night or timezone. So that I could see my statistics and compare my achievements on a single scoreboard against all the other PvP players around the world.
And then a little way into launch I would start opening PvP only servers, with no safe zones. So that once people had levelled up their toons to max in carebearland, they could migrate to the dangers of PvP world, without ever having to be perma-ganked. So that the battle to be commenced with everyone on a more even footing with out all the frustration. Allow them to gain the added enjoyment of exploring the gamecontent in a much more precarious scenario.
I would also add a consentual flag, for those people who are intrested in PvPing in world area's or dueling etc. In fact I would add a few different flavours of consentual flag. A permadeath flag, and a full looting flag for example. So that those who wished to play for higher stakes were free to do so at will. So that the available penalties and stakes were as high or as low as each player choses to take them on their own whimsy.
Just give the players all the options and let the sandbox gametype decide. Perhaps flags that cannot be removed for long period of time. Set yourself to full looting for a week. Or a month. As far as possible to allow each and every player as much choice over the penalty system/difficulty settings he wishes to play, and balance the loot/advancement tree to each one.
So that the permadeath/full looting/always PvPed guy goes up levels faster, gets more money and access to better weapons quicker, but risks getting nowehere in the game at all.
PvP specific skills like flag detection. Access to a satelitte system that announced the location of other permadeath/full loot players so that they could bounty hunt each other around the galaxy.
Maybe PvP specific factions. With faction houses whose defences are flag specific and destroyable. A couple of full loot permadeath faction house, a couple of no loot no permadeath factions etc. Each with their own weapon systems and defences that do custom damage to their specified enemy systems.
All the while, harmless little carebears drifting around in the background. Harmless interactive eye candy. Potering about on their little missions, exploring, crafting, battling anomalies and invading hordes. Pirate dreadnoughts and tresure hunting. Gambling in bars. Mining away. Cracking jokes and raiding against spacemonsters with their alien specific weapons that don't do much damage to anything else.
With their own sets of sensors that target resources or PvE mob types. Their types of PvE specific missiles and shields. Running quests and answering distress beacons. Following story lines and flying into ambushes they can beat. Minelaying and fortifying their faction homes against PvE threat.