sorry to post twice but hoping that one of the team sees this thread which im sure they are otherwise they wouldnt be doing the interview or w/e ... in this reply i was hoping just to give some feedback of some stuff im sure u thougth of but as ur game sounds well like real life i just wanted to give a few ideas i hope to see as this comes along .
First in this article it says in one part about what u want to do on a day to day basis and some change ups like a hunting party or living ur adventure or helping on a town seige etc ...well it got me to thinking a game that sounds this dynamic needs more RL implications.
Like maybe marriage to an NPC or another player ... as it says u will forge relationships with NPCs that will affect u later this sounds great as an enemy could always use ur family against u. If he or she were to die this would definitely be an affect that would shape a persons future and their outlook on life.
Time itself ... a change in seasons as well as day and night
Character housing which surely could be instanced ... ppl could come on invites i suppose ... if attacked ur home for instance an enemy could burn it down or cause damage forcing u to do repairs .....
this may be flamed a bit but ... not sure on what rating ur going for as far as ur audience but what if one day i dont feel like doing anything just sittin back in the game world minding my own business talkin with friends or gettin to know new ones ... i want to CHILL bY the OLD SHADE TREE and take down my last swallow while watching the sunset while Fishing for rations in the old lake or pond ... this could make for some great screens btw as well as video later as well as a drunkard storyline as ur character may become obsessive with drinkin and fishin by the old shade tree lol.
how about PETS ... yes i went there , everyone knows mans best friend is loyal ... only this is some fantasy world so imagine what could be created ... however all pets eventually die or take one for the team once in awhile ... so death should be embraced. When ur pet dies it dies ... they are like doritios ... kill em off they ll make more lol ...
since u have betting how bout a gambling house where u can play slots or poker or some blackjack for ingame cash. could be set up like mini games and something on the side for players to do besides all the other activities already at their disposal. this is the part that also makes me think this games audience is gonna be a more mature audience as far as its demographics the betting alone im sure would be a major concern from the parental community for children so if ur gonna do it go all the way lol
im sure i could go on and on but i wont just something bout the lil bit of info says that all of the above is fully possible in ur game .... but as u r trying t break the mold on the MMO market i wish u the best of luck and lookin forward to hearing much more on this game ... I think this is exactly the type of game Jeff Strain over at Anet was talkin about in his " How to build a Successful MMO" article .... for those that havent read it google it , its a good read.
"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die."
Question: If they have multiple servers, and a gameworld that is completely dynamic, how are they going to handle coding the updates, bug fixes, events, etc. If each server has a different world on it, won't they have tailor each update to the coding of each world?
Oh there is so much we're not telling you... I'm sorry, I have to smile a little. I feel like the Wizard of Oz, PLEASE don't look behind the curtain! Just enjoy the magic and let us worry about how we pull this off. One thing I will tell you, we aren't using the standard server setup of other MMO games. in other words, you will not be forced to pick a server. I've talked about this in other posts, so you can look up the details if you want there, but the important fact is we are using a new server model to help us deal with some of these issues.
sorry to post twice but hoping that one of the team sees this thread which im sure they are otherwise they wouldnt be doing the interview or w/e ... in this reply i was hoping just to give some feedback of some stuff im sure u thougth of but as ur game sounds well like real life i just wanted to give a few ideas i hope to see as this comes along . First in this article it says in one part about what u want to do on a day to day basis and some change ups like a hunting party or living ur adventure or helping on a town seige etc ...well it got me to thinking a game that sounds this dynamic needs more RL implications. Like maybe marriage to an NPC or another player ... as it says u will forge relationships with NPCs that will affect u later this sounds great as an enemy could always use ur family against u. If he or she were to die this would definitely be an affect that would shape a persons future and their outlook on life. Time itself ... a change in seasons as well as day and night Character housing which surely could be instanced ... ppl could come on invites i suppose ... if attacked ur home for instance an enemy could burn it down or cause damage forcing u to do repairs ..... this may be flamed a bit but ... not sure on what rating ur going for as far as ur audience but what if one day i dont feel like doing anything just sittin back in the game world minding my own business talkin with friends or gettin to know new ones ... i want to CHILL bY the OLD SHADE TREE and take down my last swallow while watching the sunset while Fishing for rations in the old lake or pond ... this could make for some great screens btw as well as video later as well as a drunkard storyline as ur character may become obsessive with drinkin and fishin by the old shade tree lol. how about PETS ... yes i went there , everyone knows mans best friend is loyal ... only this is some fantasy world so imagine what could be created ... however all pets eventually die or take one for the team once in awhile ... so death should be embraced. When ur pet dies it dies ... they are like doritios ... kill em off they ll make more lol ... since u have betting how bout a gambling house where u can play slots or poker or some blackjack for ingame cash. could be set up like mini games and something on the side for players to do besides all the other activities already at their disposal. this is the part that also makes me think this games audience is gonna be a more mature audience as far as its demographics the betting alone im sure would be a major concern from the parental community for children so if ur gonna do it go all the way lol im sure i could go on and on but i wont just something bout the lil bit of info says that all of the above is fully possible in ur game .... but as u r trying t break the mold on the MMO market i wish u the best of luck and lookin forward to hearing much more on this game ... I think this is exactly the type of game Jeff Strain over at Anet was talkin about in his " How to build a Successful MMO" article .... for those that havent read it google it , its a good read.
I have to say, thank you for your posts. This is exactly the kind of constructive criticism and suggestions we are looking for in these forums. You will be happy to know that many of your requests are already in the game design, and we will certainly put the rest of your suggestions into the discussion if they aren't already. Thanks again.
I did read about this game. It did seem like a perfect game, but then I did read about the instance. Then it will be a group/single player game, not a mmorgp game. Have seen this in a couple of game and always they claim it has to be that way, I dont think so. instancing should only be used when it has to be. If it is a dynamic game, than instancing is not a part of that. So what will be left of the dynamic mmorpg game? I hope they change there mind and drop almost all instancing. Then they would have a very good game. I know I would be testing it then, but with instancing I would not spend my time on it.
Greetz
LOL i love this one, says instancing wont make the game dynamic, so what your saying is that if 500 people sit there waiting for the orc chief to spawn that is dynamic, The instancing Allows for a dynamic game, one group may have ot go kill the orc chief, but another player may have destroyed the orcs and now there is a small guardpost there with a quest. That is the beauty of instancing it allows for specific portions of a quest to truely be Your own story.
CoS looks interesting and I wish the team well in bringing it to market, but there are several reasons why I doubt if I will be playing it, should it ever actually go live.
Firstly, the "You are the Hero" concept is an absolute turn-off for me. Not only do I have no desire to play a "hero", but I actively like to play regular, run-of-the-mill, anonymous kinds of characters. I thoroughly detest RPGs that tell me I am big, important or special; I just like to be there in the background, wandering along fairly aimlessly, doing my own thing. Being made the centre of attention or the focal point of the story is plain annoying.
Most MMOs give a nod to this kind of thinking, having NPCs recognise your character and claim they have "heard of your exploits" and so on, but it generally isn;t material to gameplay and I can easily tune it out. If gameplay actually relies on me playing my character as if what he does is "important", then that's lost me as a customer right from the start.
Secondly, CoS sounds extremely story-driven. I don't actually look for story in MMOs. I read books for stories, or watch movies, where stories have genuine depth and meaning. It is possible for RPGs, on or offline, to tell a story (although Adventure games in the old style did it better), but generally those stories are pretty trite and thin. I am far more interested in my character having a "life", where his own story accretes out of a theoretically endless series of apparently unrelated actions - just like non-virtual life does, in fact. So the game having a strong, overarching storyline that it is pretty much compulsory to follow is another big turn-off.
Finally, I like predictability and repetition. That, in large part, is what i come to MMOs for. Intelligent AI, clever monsters, dynamic content, a changing world - all of those are negatives for me. It's about as attractive as if i came home from work each day and found someone had moved all my furniture round. I want to know where things are, I want them to be where they were yesterday, and I want them to do the same thing they did last time i used them. So, another offputting design element there.
I have, however, seen many of these claims made before for MMOs that turned out in practice to be absolutely standard for the genre, so I live in hope that most of these will turn out to be nothing more than promotional fluff and CoS will finally emerge as another mainstream, solid MMO. In which case i will definitely give it a try
Wow and omg i try and think of the type of game Bhagpuss says he likes and i honestly can't even think of how completly boring a game like you would describe would be. No story, nothing actually happens people just mill around waiting cause they all expect something to happen to them before they do it then they chew there lips cause if they react in any remarkable way someone may go hey and pay attention to them leading to one conculsion
This is his mmo game
You make old people that sit around shuffling from room to room occasionally yelling at the nursing staff then you scurry away to avoid "attention" while waiting for reletive to arrive and give you things to do, veyr mundane things, like get them a sandwich or help with the groceries. The reward for these activities is points used to be left alone and make people not remember who they are, which help cause most of the players are old people anyway
It was an old text mud where you gained experience by sitting idle, but when a trivia question was asked, you had to reply (right or wrong), or you got disconnected (and thus stopped gaining experience).
CoS looks interesting and I wish the team well in bringing it to market, but there are several reasons why I doubt if I will be playing it, should it ever actually go live. Firstly, the "You are the Hero" concept is an absolute turn-off for me. Not only do I have no desire to play a "hero", but I actively like to play regular, run-of-the-mill, anonymous kinds of characters. I thoroughly detest RPGs that tell me I am big, important or special; I just like to be there in the background, wandering along fairly aimlessly, doing my own thing. Being made the centre of attention or the focal point of the story is plain annoying. Most MMOs give a nod to this kind of thinking, having NPCs recognise your character and claim they have "heard of your exploits" and so on, but it generally isn;t material to gameplay and I can easily tune it out. If gameplay actually relies on me playing my character as if what he does is "important", then that's lost me as a customer right from the start. Secondly, CoS sounds extremely story-driven. I don't actually look for story in MMOs. I read books for stories, or watch movies, where stories have genuine depth and meaning. It is possible for RPGs, on or offline, to tell a story (although Adventure games in the old style did it better), but generally those stories are pretty trite and thin. I am far more interested in my character having a "life", where his own story accretes out of a theoretically endless series of apparently unrelated actions - just like non-virtual life does, in fact. So the game having a strong, overarching storyline that it is pretty much compulsory to follow is another big turn-off. Finally, I like predictability and repetition. That, in large part, is what i come to MMOs for. Intelligent AI, clever monsters, dynamic content, a changing world - all of those are negatives for me. It's about as attractive as if i came home from work each day and found someone had moved all my furniture round. I want to know where things are, I want them to be where they were yesterday, and I want them to do the same thing they did last time i used them. So, another offputting design element there.
I have, however, seen many of these claims made before for MMOs that turned out in practice to be absolutely standard for the genre, so I live in hope that most of these will turn out to be nothing more than promotional fluff and CoS will finally emerge as another mainstream, solid MMO. In which case i will definitely give it a try
I second the shock and 'omg'. Well, the good news for this guy is that there are already LOTS of games he can play already! Fortunately for many of us who are quite bored with 'predictability and repetition', dumb AI, stupid monsters, static content, and the same old world every day, we have Citadel of Sorcery to look forward to so that we can finally get away from all that boring... and I hesitate to call it this... game play.
To the developers of this game - I applaud you for trying these new things and breaking the formulaic mold that many MMORPGs have fallen into lately. It is a very ambitious concept and I look forward to seeing it develop. I really hope when it comes time to get a publisher they allow you to keep the innovative parts of the game design.
In any case this looks like a game I would really enjoy and there is nothing like it out there right now. Good luck to you guys and I will be keeping my eyes on this!
Question: If they have multiple servers, and a gameworld that is completely dynamic, how are they going to handle coding the updates, bug fixes, events, etc. If each server has a different world on it, won't they have tailor each update to the coding of each world?
Oh there is so much we're not telling you... I'm sorry, I have to smile a little. I feel like the Wizard of Oz, PLEASE don't look behind the curtain! Just enjoy the magic and let us worry about how we pull this off. One thing I will tell you, we aren't using the standard server setup of other MMO games. in other words, you will not be forced to pick a server. I've talked about this in other posts, so you can look up the details if you want there, but the important fact is we are using a new server model to help us deal with some of these issues.
Jatar
Citadel of Sorcery dev team member
That actually makes me more wary...not less. Trying "something new" with the standard designs of mmo's = fine. Trying "something new" with the area that bug fixes are = a bit scary.
That actually makes me more wary...not less. Trying "something new" with the standard designs of mmo's = fine. Trying "something new" with the area that bug fixes are = a bit scary.
What do you have to be 'wary' about? You're not the one risking millions of dollars. If the dev wants to create a new system that allows them to create a better game, good for them. You don't even have to risk the price of a game, you can just read and find out if it works or not... they have to risk millions. Jeez, give them a break.
The point being, excessive instancing like they are talking about basically ruins the massively part. If you want to play solo so much get a single player game, there are plenty of them out there.
Personally, the way Wow did instance is fine, you have to party to get the good items, as it should be, good stuff should never be available solo, it just makes it a farming paradise if you instance everything.
Nothing wrong with innovating, except when you take it too far. Unless they majorly tone down the instancing this will be another one and done game, won't last a year.
yea cause hearing 50 "kids" screaming chuck norris jokes and 100 others calling each other noobsauce is really what i wanna see for almost every moment i play. 10 years ago i didn't care 1 way or another about instancing. But with the utterly immature 90% of the gaming populace playing now being in an instance is the only time i can even enjoy playing games. most games should be called MMONusreryGames. This at least lets people who actually want to experience the game and the story do so without people who's ONLY enjoyment is bothering every person they can find.
I'm a little confused here. If the world is going to be 900 million square kilometers big, and this new quest system is truly adaptive and dynamic, then why is instancing necessary?
If there's truly that much space, can't this magical quest system send everyone to a different place to do their grand epic style adventures? (or at least spread everyone sufficiently out and give diverse enough objectives to keep crowding and overlap from happening?)
If NPC's come into the world and exist until they perma-die, would I, for example, ever need to enter an instance to deal with him for my quest? (presumably for the purpose of not having to share a spawn) If so, can't the magical quest system just make enough NPC's for every individual's needs so that I don't have to enter an instance? I mean, I'm assuming the same guy won't die twice anyway from what I've read, otherwise it wouldn't be very dynamic at all...
When town's get attacked or raised to the ground, is that instanced too? I mean, if it's not, that's a pretty big scale event on its own, proving that you don't need an instance to make something more grand or cinematic...
It just seems to me like the two concepts, a gigantic fully adaptive world, and an instanced world where people do things apart, are not necessary to each other. Having both seems like trying to design two completely separate games.
Now I realize I don't have all the information here, and I'm sure you've shared all that you can at the moment... Perhaps there's something I'm missing? Is there some way that these things will work together that's actually better than just not having instancing? Again, why can't all that superb dynamic adaptive content just exist in the normal game world? 900 million km sq. man! That's the size of Earth! Even with a population the size of every WoW server, a world that size would be barren... And to boot, a quest system that (on the surface) sounds like a sentient AI lol... Surely it can handle putting everyone in the same world and give everyone somewhere different to go...
This explains a little more. It sounds like they're using Instancing which could work to limit players who try to exploit the reactive game system they describe. It won't stop their exploitation but Instances would limit the damage to the shards rather than the whole world. And they're addressing issues of other MMORPGs like solo-ability and playing with different level characters. They seem to know what they want to do, but doing it is a whole different matter.
I have to laugh when they made this comment:
We knew we would take a lot of flack from a few people who feel it is necessary to tear down any developer who attempts to do something new. Since the art of the game is only at prototype level, we knew this would also take a lot of heat. However, there are also those who understand that we are doing our best to fight a system where new game design is discouraged as ‘too risky’
If they're afraid of flack, then they shouldn't be in the gaming industry lol And in making their noble claim about how they're fighting the Evil System by being Innovative, they neglect one simple fact. New game design IS RISKY BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME IT FAILS.
And we've seen those failures, time and time again. So until they can prove they're actually capable of pulling off all they claim and they're not just full of hot air, the community shouldn't expect anything much. When they have a working demo that they're showing off at conferences, then we can start being excited, but right now, it's way, way too soon.
The idea they are aiming at sounds fantastic in theory if it can be pulled off. Too early to pass any sort of judgement yet though, although many seem to be intent on doing so...
At the end of the day its how it works in practice that will matter - be interesting to see how it turns out - hope it works :-)
Although I normally go for PvP, this game sounds, although explicitly said that it only contains minor PvP, very interesting.
One thing that bothers me is what they will do once one or both enemy factions are defeated, because either you don't even get a chance or they invent something for after that. The problems with the first one is that, in the end it could end either like WoW: Just searching for the best equipment; or like Guild Wars: fighting (maybe not PvP) again and again in battlefields. The problems with the second idea is, how are they going to invent new stuff and balance it, when they don't even know when exactly they are going to implant it.
So I hope they find a way to solve this
(And I hope they take all the time they need, I would actually even donate if it helps)
sorry to post twice but hoping that one of the team sees this thread which im sure they are otherwise they wouldnt be doing the interview or w/e ... in this reply i was hoping just to give some feedback of some stuff im sure u thougth of but as ur game sounds well like real life i just wanted to give a few ideas i hope to see as this comes along . First in this article it says in one part about what u want to do on a day to day basis and some change ups like a hunting party or living ur adventure or helping on a town seige etc ...well it got me to thinking a game that sounds this dynamic needs more RL implications. Like maybe marriage to an NPC or another player ... as it says u will forge relationships with NPCs that will affect u later this sounds great as an enemy could always use ur family against u. If he or she were to die this would definitely be an affect that would shape a persons future and their outlook on life. Time itself ... a change in seasons as well as day and night Character housing which surely could be instanced ... ppl could come on invites i suppose ... if attacked ur home for instance an enemy could burn it down or cause damage forcing u to do repairs ..... this may be flamed a bit but ... not sure on what rating ur going for as far as ur audience but what if one day i dont feel like doing anything just sittin back in the game world minding my own business talkin with friends or gettin to know new ones ... i want to CHILL bY the OLD SHADE TREE and take down my last swallow while watching the sunset while Fishing for rations in the old lake or pond ... this could make for some great screens btw as well as video later as well as a drunkard storyline as ur character may become obsessive with drinkin and fishin by the old shade tree lol. how about PETS ... yes i went there , everyone knows mans best friend is loyal ... only this is some fantasy world so imagine what could be created ... however all pets eventually die or take one for the team once in awhile ... so death should be embraced. When ur pet dies it dies ... they are like doritios ... kill em off they ll make more lol ... since u have betting how bout a gambling house where u can play slots or poker or some blackjack for ingame cash. could be set up like mini games and something on the side for players to do besides all the other activities already at their disposal. this is the part that also makes me think this games audience is gonna be a more mature audience as far as its demographics the betting alone im sure would be a major concern from the parental community for children so if ur gonna do it go all the way lol im sure i could go on and on but i wont just something bout the lil bit of info says that all of the above is fully possible in ur game .... but as u r trying t break the mold on the MMO market i wish u the best of luck and lookin forward to hearing much more on this game ... I think this is exactly the type of game Jeff Strain over at Anet was talkin about in his " How to build a Successful MMO" article .... for those that havent read it google it , its a good read.
I have to say, thank you for your posts. This is exactly the kind of constructive criticism and suggestions we are looking for in these forums. You will be happy to know that many of your requests are already in the game design, and we will certainly put the rest of your suggestions into the discussion if they aren't already. Thanks again.
Jatar
Citadel of Sorcery dev team member
Thanx for the outlook into what ur really thinking about or have already put in the game . After u replied i spent the last few days [busy weekend] finding some of ur threads where uve mentioned anything about this game as it really peaked my interests, thats when i found something about a newspaper , or Town Criers that were there to let know of the world around u. I was gonna say when i originally was puttin suggestions these two were at the top of my list but i thought id b flamed for such an idea cos so far well it just doesnt happen in most games. I also read about the questing with others , and he did say that questing with others does influence ur own personal life as well as theirs. Again all these concepts sound really good and i hope that u find someone [publisher] to back u.
On the artwork thank u for not focusing all ur early attention to this .... to the neigh sayers if this engine is capable of all they claim u should be thankin them too , infact as they ve come forward now im sure theres alot of HUNGRY ARTIST out here this is ur chance into the professional world as level designers and more ... just a thought ... this also means they havent actually set graphical limitations yet to btw which is a good thing ...
can we know a lil more on the terrain thing im really interested in this IN THE AIR thing .... is their a flying class , a way to fly , quests in the sky ?
id like to add a few more suggestions but these arent so much about what id like to see in ur game
1. Publisher ... i know ur hungry to get one seated and i cant wait for the day we all read about it as an official announcemet . However now adays it also seems that so many are ready to be the next WoW and willing to do just about anything to get there . Including regular clones and companys that are willing to let the games fail so they can suck up the technology for their own interests . ... Im not saying NCsoft by far but when u lock in one, do think of a company like that as they are into trying new things and new ideas on breaking the mold on the MMO market ... GW success of 5 mill units sold is a perfect example cos when ANET tried it and succeeded ... it was believed it couldnt be done. They re goin in theyre own directions im sure but i was using them as an example of what kinda heart the publisher has to have ...
2. When U ask me to marry into ur game [ subscription fee] cos i kn u need ur money back and want to make more , just make sure that i dont regret marrying into it so i stay married to it ... unfortunately it doesnt come with a prenup but does come with the ability to divorce. As a gamer urself i believe u and ur team made this game with gamers in mind and its not just the game u want to play but the one u and everyone has always dreamed of.
3. Fantasy is fun and all but at same time it needs something new ... i really hope to see a cross somewhere between technology and the classic take on RPG style games so please keep this in mind as u build ur world. Swords Shields and mystic ability can only hold someone for so long.
4. I want u to deliver the game u want us to play , while takin the suggestions of the community and improvising and implementing this into making it a great game , my last suggestion is one that has happend all to often as of recent ... Dev teams turning def ears to their community ... please no matter who backs u dont allow them to take ur gaming sense away ... ur a gamer so u know how important this is to u ... cant please everyone i know but i think the big dogs at the top have sometimes forgotten we are what makes or breaks games. IMHO thats why WoW / GW continue to b where they are .... bc their teams dont forget ... ok ok as well as good financial backing i ll give them that . lol
I wish u the best and looking forward to anything new and official on this game .... Hey if u need some quest writers ill give u some for free ... would need to know some backround and more in the game but heck just to say theyd be in game ... and when u do finally go live i d be able to say hey i made that quests lol.
"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die."
The point being, excessive instancing like they are talking about basically ruins the massively part. If you want to play solo so much get a single player game, there are plenty of them out there. Personally, the way Wow did instance is fine, you have to party to get the good items, as it should be, good stuff should never be available solo, it just makes it a farming paradise if you instance everything. Nothing wrong with innovating, except when you take it too far. Unless they majorly tone down the instancing this will be another one and done game, won't last a year.
Interesting point of view, however I think one thing that is a common mistake in perception of what MMO really is, is that people think massively means 100k players in a small area.
I think that pretty much erases your MMO disagreement.
As for instancing, im on the fence for that. I believe its necessary for some parts of games and not others. Everquest taught me to hate not having an instance when I had to wait for days camping a monster with guilds. This day and age casual players which can easily be 80% or more of the players out there dont have that kind of time to wait. Instant satisfaction Is what drives games these days.
And I am betting that the questing system will not grant so called "farming rights" as I doubt you will be able to repeatedly enter the same instance over and over to get an item or items. A simple fix to this is coding a flag that tells the server, player xx has this item or has recieved it already, and put a "timer" on it to avoid the player farming. Plus what can be done is to create a method that once you hit an instance, as you kill mobs in it, they cant respawn until the quest is completed, and instance closed not allowing itself to be redone by the same player.
Playing: Not much actively. Games played: to many to list, been playing MMO's since 2001 --------------------------
Most of you are reaching conclusions on a game that DOES NOT EXIST!!!
The game looks very good on paper and the developers are working on a truly REVOLUTIONARY game. I hope and wish this game gets out; let's wait a couple of years and we'll see.
Saorlan, no FPS combat? seriously, I think you're on the wrong forum, and I also don't think you understand the world these guys are creating.
What I read suggests:
1.) The world is STORY. You play a character, not neccessarily a hero at all times - your story is developed around You, and what you've done. You will develop not just skills and stats, but a link to other PCs, NPCs, locations and events. As these linked characters and locations are affected, you'll be drawn back to them because they should be interesting to your story.
I believe this will be where the instancing shines - as your story develops, and you make irreversible decisions, the STORY can branch slightly with instances for those who are aligned at that point in time, without negatively affecting minorities or allowing griefers to mess with the main plot you're really interested in.
2.) I can't believe people bother posting here with "graphics are poor", "been tried before and failed" etc. To me, the idea is the big winner. They have released an early interview, which is great as it shows us these ideas RPG fans have been looking for, are actually being worked on. What these same fans are after, is what is being developed; we're not neccessarily interested in those fancy graphics or PvP arenas.
3.) On PvP: I don't see it being limited by this description; rather, I see the Story-driven world as a new introduction to the PvP idea. Imagine again, your character in a town, where the town crier runs through announcing bandits have hit the neighbouring farms, where you and some friends get a good deal on weapon repairs through a friendly blacksmith you saved earlier. Now there is serious reason for you to rally a few people and go save the area. Now add to the scene that the bandits are actually PCs hired on another interacting story-line raiding for prisoners, and you have PvP combat which is entirely optional, but alot more important.
Please don't post quick responses deriding these guys work. If they've kept it up for 5 years, with a live test-bed server for over 2, then they're fairly commited, AND able to get this game made. I salute them, and put my hand up for a job / beta position too
Lol, I almost replied to Saorlan too, but you beat me to it. Basically: what a jerk.
You know what? If these guys and gals can pull this off, then kudos to them, it sounds new and interesting, and anything new is a relief.
And since when did everyone care about graphics so much? I'd rather have a good GAME, instead of good GRAPHICS. There are plenty of flashy crappy games out there. But I guess I still play Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Curse of Monkey Island etc. on occasion, heaven forbid!
Why? They're good games. The graphics compared to today are complete garbage for the most part, but if the game is the good, and the art/graphics/design at least FITS the game and aren't horrid(i.e. don't work at all), well then, you have a good game.
Graphics should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Would you rather have a bucket of icing or a cake without icing?
Comments
sorry to post twice but hoping that one of the team sees this thread which im sure they are otherwise they wouldnt be doing the interview or w/e ... in this reply i was hoping just to give some feedback of some stuff im sure u thougth of but as ur game sounds well like real life i just wanted to give a few ideas i hope to see as this comes along .
First in this article it says in one part about what u want to do on a day to day basis and some change ups like a hunting party or living ur adventure or helping on a town seige etc ...well it got me to thinking a game that sounds this dynamic needs more RL implications.
Like maybe marriage to an NPC or another player ... as it says u will forge relationships with NPCs that will affect u later this sounds great as an enemy could always use ur family against u. If he or she were to die this would definitely be an affect that would shape a persons future and their outlook on life.
Time itself ... a change in seasons as well as day and night
Character housing which surely could be instanced ... ppl could come on invites i suppose ... if attacked ur home for instance an enemy could burn it down or cause damage forcing u to do repairs .....
this may be flamed a bit but ... not sure on what rating ur going for as far as ur audience but what if one day i dont feel like doing anything just sittin back in the game world minding my own business talkin with friends or gettin to know new ones ... i want to CHILL bY the OLD SHADE TREE and take down my last swallow while watching the sunset while Fishing for rations in the old lake or pond ... this could make for some great screens btw as well as video later as well as a drunkard storyline as ur character may become obsessive with drinkin and fishin by the old shade tree lol.
how about PETS ... yes i went there , everyone knows mans best friend is loyal ... only this is some fantasy world so imagine what could be created ... however all pets eventually die or take one for the team once in awhile ... so death should be embraced. When ur pet dies it dies ... they are like doritios ... kill em off they ll make more lol ...
since u have betting how bout a gambling house where u can play slots or poker or some blackjack for ingame cash. could be set up like mini games and something on the side for players to do besides all the other activities already at their disposal. this is the part that also makes me think this games audience is gonna be a more mature audience as far as its demographics the betting alone im sure would be a major concern from the parental community for children so if ur gonna do it go all the way lol
im sure i could go on and on but i wont just something bout the lil bit of info says that all of the above is fully possible in ur game .... but as u r trying t break the mold on the MMO market i wish u the best of luck and lookin forward to hearing much more on this game ... I think this is exactly the type of game Jeff Strain over at Anet was talkin about in his " How to build a Successful MMO" article .... for those that havent read it google it , its a good read.
"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die."
Jatar
Citadel of Sorcery dev team member
Jatar
Citadel of Sorcery dev team member
LOL i love this one, says instancing wont make the game dynamic, so what your saying is that if 500 people sit there waiting for the orc chief to spawn that is dynamic, The instancing Allows for a dynamic game, one group may have ot go kill the orc chief, but another player may have destroyed the orcs and now there is a small guardpost there with a quest. That is the beauty of instancing it allows for specific portions of a quest to truely be Your own story.
I am looking forward to try this game, after the launch. :P Not going to try anything in beta, want to experience it fully. :P
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
CoS looks interesting and I wish the team well in bringing it to market, but there are several reasons why I doubt if I will be playing it, should it ever actually go live.
Firstly, the "You are the Hero" concept is an absolute turn-off for me. Not only do I have no desire to play a "hero", but I actively like to play regular, run-of-the-mill, anonymous kinds of characters. I thoroughly detest RPGs that tell me I am big, important or special; I just like to be there in the background, wandering along fairly aimlessly, doing my own thing. Being made the centre of attention or the focal point of the story is plain annoying.
Most MMOs give a nod to this kind of thinking, having NPCs recognise your character and claim they have "heard of your exploits" and so on, but it generally isn;t material to gameplay and I can easily tune it out. If gameplay actually relies on me playing my character as if what he does is "important", then that's lost me as a customer right from the start.
Secondly, CoS sounds extremely story-driven. I don't actually look for story in MMOs. I read books for stories, or watch movies, where stories have genuine depth and meaning. It is possible for RPGs, on or offline, to tell a story (although Adventure games in the old style did it better), but generally those stories are pretty trite and thin. I am far more interested in my character having a "life", where his own story accretes out of a theoretically endless series of apparently unrelated actions - just like non-virtual life does, in fact. So the game having a strong, overarching storyline that it is pretty much compulsory to follow is another big turn-off.
Finally, I like predictability and repetition. That, in large part, is what i come to MMOs for. Intelligent AI, clever monsters, dynamic content, a changing world - all of those are negatives for me. It's about as attractive as if i came home from work each day and found someone had moved all my furniture round. I want to know where things are, I want them to be where they were yesterday, and I want them to do the same thing they did last time i used them. So, another offputting design element there.
I have, however, seen many of these claims made before for MMOs that turned out in practice to be absolutely standard for the genre, so I live in hope that most of these will turn out to be nothing more than promotional fluff and CoS will finally emerge as another mainstream, solid MMO. In which case i will definitely give it a try
Wow and omg i try and think of the type of game Bhagpuss says he likes and i honestly can't even think of how completly boring a game like you would describe would be. No story, nothing actually happens people just mill around waiting cause they all expect something to happen to them before they do it then they chew there lips cause if they react in any remarkable way someone may go hey and pay attention to them leading to one conculsion
This is his mmo game
You make old people that sit around shuffling from room to room occasionally yelling at the nursing staff then you scurry away to avoid "attention" while waiting for reletive to arrive and give you things to do, veyr mundane things, like get them a sandwich or help with the groceries. The reward for these activities is points used to be left alone and make people not remember who they are, which help cause most of the players are old people anyway
That reminds me of ZenMUD.
It was an old text mud where you gained experience by sitting idle, but when a trivia question was asked, you had to reply (right or wrong), or you got disconnected (and thus stopped gaining experience).
I second the shock and 'omg'. Well, the good news for this guy is that there are already LOTS of games he can play already! Fortunately for many of us who are quite bored with 'predictability and repetition', dumb AI, stupid monsters, static content, and the same old world every day, we have Citadel of Sorcery to look forward to so that we can finally get away from all that boring... and I hesitate to call it this... game play.
I will keep an eye on this MMO , it sounds promising.
It would be nice to play a game different than all the games that are on stores these days....
To the developers of this game - I applaud you for trying these new things and breaking the formulaic mold that many MMORPGs have fallen into lately. It is a very ambitious concept and I look forward to seeing it develop. I really hope when it comes time to get a publisher they allow you to keep the innovative parts of the game design.
In any case this looks like a game I would really enjoy and there is nothing like it out there right now. Good luck to you guys and I will be keeping my eyes on this!
Jatar
Citadel of Sorcery dev team member
That actually makes me more wary...not less. Trying "something new" with the standard designs of mmo's = fine. Trying "something new" with the area that bug fixes are = a bit scary.
The point being, excessive instancing like they are talking about basically ruins the massively part. If you want to play solo so much get a single player game, there are plenty of them out there.
Personally, the way Wow did instance is fine, you have to party to get the good items, as it should be, good stuff should never be available solo, it just makes it a farming paradise if you instance everything.
Nothing wrong with innovating, except when you take it too far. Unless they majorly tone down the instancing this will be another one and done game, won't last a year.
yea cause hearing 50 "kids" screaming chuck norris jokes and 100 others calling each other noobsauce is really what i wanna see for almost every moment i play. 10 years ago i didn't care 1 way or another about instancing. But with the utterly immature 90% of the gaming populace playing now being in an instance is the only time i can even enjoy playing games. most games should be called MMONusreryGames. This at least lets people who actually want to experience the game and the story do so without people who's ONLY enjoyment is bothering every person they can find.
I'm a little confused here. If the world is going to be 900 million square kilometers big, and this new quest system is truly adaptive and dynamic, then why is instancing necessary?
If there's truly that much space, can't this magical quest system send everyone to a different place to do their grand epic style adventures? (or at least spread everyone sufficiently out and give diverse enough objectives to keep crowding and overlap from happening?)
If NPC's come into the world and exist until they perma-die, would I, for example, ever need to enter an instance to deal with him for my quest? (presumably for the purpose of not having to share a spawn) If so, can't the magical quest system just make enough NPC's for every individual's needs so that I don't have to enter an instance? I mean, I'm assuming the same guy won't die twice anyway from what I've read, otherwise it wouldn't be very dynamic at all...
When town's get attacked or raised to the ground, is that instanced too? I mean, if it's not, that's a pretty big scale event on its own, proving that you don't need an instance to make something more grand or cinematic...
It just seems to me like the two concepts, a gigantic fully adaptive world, and an instanced world where people do things apart, are not necessary to each other. Having both seems like trying to design two completely separate games.
Now I realize I don't have all the information here, and I'm sure you've shared all that you can at the moment... Perhaps there's something I'm missing? Is there some way that these things will work together that's actually better than just not having instancing? Again, why can't all that superb dynamic adaptive content just exist in the normal game world? 900 million km sq. man! That's the size of Earth! Even with a population the size of every WoW server, a world that size would be barren... And to boot, a quest system that (on the surface) sounds like a sentient AI lol... Surely it can handle putting everyone in the same world and give everyone somewhere different to go...
Please enlighten us.
This explains a little more. It sounds like they're using Instancing which could work to limit players who try to exploit the reactive game system they describe. It won't stop their exploitation but Instances would limit the damage to the shards rather than the whole world. And they're addressing issues of other MMORPGs like solo-ability and playing with different level characters. They seem to know what they want to do, but doing it is a whole different matter.
I have to laugh when they made this comment:
We knew we would take a lot of flack from a few people who feel it is necessary to tear down any developer who attempts to do something new. Since the art of the game is only at prototype level, we knew this would also take a lot of heat. However, there are also those who understand that we are doing our best to fight a system where new game design is discouraged as ‘too risky’
If they're afraid of flack, then they shouldn't be in the gaming industry lol And in making their noble claim about how they're fighting the Evil System by being Innovative, they neglect one simple fact. New game design IS RISKY BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME IT FAILS.
And we've seen those failures, time and time again. So until they can prove they're actually capable of pulling off all they claim and they're not just full of hot air, the community shouldn't expect anything much. When they have a working demo that they're showing off at conferences, then we can start being excited, but right now, it's way, way too soon.
The idea they are aiming at sounds fantastic in theory if it can be pulled off. Too early to pass any sort of judgement yet though, although many seem to be intent on doing so...
At the end of the day its how it works in practice that will matter - be interesting to see how it turns out - hope it works :-)
Although I normally go for PvP, this game sounds, although explicitly said that it only contains minor PvP, very interesting.
One thing that bothers me is what they will do once one or both enemy factions are defeated, because either you don't even get a chance or they invent something for after that. The problems with the first one is that, in the end it could end either like WoW: Just searching for the best equipment; or like Guild Wars: fighting (maybe not PvP) again and again in battlefields. The problems with the second idea is, how are they going to invent new stuff and balance it, when they don't even know when exactly they are going to implant it.
So I hope they find a way to solve this
(And I hope they take all the time they need, I would actually even donate if it helps)
I have to say, thank you for your posts. This is exactly the kind of constructive criticism and suggestions we are looking for in these forums. You will be happy to know that many of your requests are already in the game design, and we will certainly put the rest of your suggestions into the discussion if they aren't already. Thanks again.Jatar
Citadel of Sorcery dev team member
Thanx for the outlook into what ur really thinking about or have already put in the game . After u replied i spent the last few days [busy weekend] finding some of ur threads where uve mentioned anything about this game as it really peaked my interests, thats when i found something about a newspaper , or Town Criers that were there to let know of the world around u. I was gonna say when i originally was puttin suggestions these two were at the top of my list but i thought id b flamed for such an idea cos so far well it just doesnt happen in most games. I also read about the questing with others , and he did say that questing with others does influence ur own personal life as well as theirs. Again all these concepts sound really good and i hope that u find someone [publisher] to back u.
On the artwork thank u for not focusing all ur early attention to this .... to the neigh sayers if this engine is capable of all they claim u should be thankin them too , infact as they ve come forward now im sure theres alot of HUNGRY ARTIST out here this is ur chance into the professional world as level designers and more ... just a thought ... this also means they havent actually set graphical limitations yet to btw which is a good thing ...
can we know a lil more on the terrain thing im really interested in this IN THE AIR thing .... is their a flying class , a way to fly , quests in the sky ?
id like to add a few more suggestions but these arent so much about what id like to see in ur game
1. Publisher ... i know ur hungry to get one seated and i cant wait for the day we all read about it as an official announcemet . However now adays it also seems that so many are ready to be the next WoW and willing to do just about anything to get there . Including regular clones and companys that are willing to let the games fail so they can suck up the technology for their own interests . ... Im not saying NCsoft by far but when u lock in one, do think of a company like that as they are into trying new things and new ideas on breaking the mold on the MMO market ... GW success of 5 mill units sold is a perfect example cos when ANET tried it and succeeded ... it was believed it couldnt be done. They re goin in theyre own directions im sure but i was using them as an example of what kinda heart the publisher has to have ...
2. When U ask me to marry into ur game [ subscription fee] cos i kn u need ur money back and want to make more , just make sure that i dont regret marrying into it so i stay married to it ... unfortunately it doesnt come with a prenup but does come with the ability to divorce. As a gamer urself i believe u and ur team made this game with gamers in mind and its not just the game u want to play but the one u and everyone has always dreamed of.
3. Fantasy is fun and all but at same time it needs something new ... i really hope to see a cross somewhere between technology and the classic take on RPG style games so please keep this in mind as u build ur world. Swords Shields and mystic ability can only hold someone for so long.
4. I want u to deliver the game u want us to play , while takin the suggestions of the community and improvising and implementing this into making it a great game , my last suggestion is one that has happend all to often as of recent ... Dev teams turning def ears to their community ... please no matter who backs u dont allow them to take ur gaming sense away ... ur a gamer so u know how important this is to u ... cant please everyone i know but i think the big dogs at the top have sometimes forgotten we are what makes or breaks games. IMHO thats why WoW / GW continue to b where they are .... bc their teams dont forget ... ok ok as well as good financial backing i ll give them that . lol
I wish u the best and looking forward to anything new and official on this game .... Hey if u need some quest writers ill give u some for free ... would need to know some backround and more in the game but heck just to say theyd be in game ... and when u do finally go live i d be able to say hey i made that quests lol.
"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die."
Lets look at wikipedia's definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMO
I think that pretty much erases your MMO disagreement.
As for instancing, im on the fence for that. I believe its necessary for some parts of games and not others. Everquest taught me to hate not having an instance when I had to wait for days camping a monster with guilds. This day and age casual players which can easily be 80% or more of the players out there dont have that kind of time to wait. Instant satisfaction Is what drives games these days.
And I am betting that the questing system will not grant so called "farming rights" as I doubt you will be able to repeatedly enter the same instance over and over to get an item or items. A simple fix to this is coding a flag that tells the server, player xx has this item or has recieved it already, and put a "timer" on it to avoid the player farming. Plus what can be done is to create a method that once you hit an instance, as you kill mobs in it, they cant respawn until the quest is completed, and instance closed not allowing itself to be redone by the same player.
Playing: Not much actively.
Games played: to many to list, been playing MMO's since 2001
--------------------------
Most of you are reaching conclusions on a game that DOES NOT EXIST!!!
The game looks very good on paper and the developers are working on a truly REVOLUTIONARY game. I hope and wish this game gets out; let's wait a couple of years and we'll see.
1. No FPS combat.
2. Why look at this game, it is dead. Darkfall here we come.
3.. Grow up developers, we are geting very tired. You think we accept this kind of bollocks ?
Saorlan, no FPS combat? seriously, I think you're on the wrong forum, and I also don't think you understand the world these guys are creating.
What I read suggests:
1.) The world is STORY. You play a character, not neccessarily a hero at all times - your story is developed around You, and what you've done. You will develop not just skills and stats, but a link to other PCs, NPCs, locations and events. As these linked characters and locations are affected, you'll be drawn back to them because they should be interesting to your story.
I believe this will be where the instancing shines - as your story develops, and you make irreversible decisions, the STORY can branch slightly with instances for those who are aligned at that point in time, without negatively affecting minorities or allowing griefers to mess with the main plot you're really interested in.
2.) I can't believe people bother posting here with "graphics are poor", "been tried before and failed" etc. To me, the idea is the big winner. They have released an early interview, which is great as it shows us these ideas RPG fans have been looking for, are actually being worked on. What these same fans are after, is what is being developed; we're not neccessarily interested in those fancy graphics or PvP arenas.
3.) On PvP: I don't see it being limited by this description; rather, I see the Story-driven world as a new introduction to the PvP idea. Imagine again, your character in a town, where the town crier runs through announcing bandits have hit the neighbouring farms, where you and some friends get a good deal on weapon repairs through a friendly blacksmith you saved earlier. Now there is serious reason for you to rally a few people and go save the area. Now add to the scene that the bandits are actually PCs hired on another interacting story-line raiding for prisoners, and you have PvP combat which is entirely optional, but alot more important.
Please don't post quick responses deriding these guys work. If they've kept it up for 5 years, with a live test-bed server for over 2, then they're fairly commited, AND able to get this game made. I salute them, and put my hand up for a job / beta position too
Don
have a great day
Lol, I almost replied to Saorlan too, but you beat me to it. Basically: what a jerk.
You know what? If these guys and gals can pull this off, then kudos to them, it sounds new and interesting, and anything new is a relief.
And since when did everyone care about graphics so much? I'd rather have a good GAME, instead of good GRAPHICS. There are plenty of flashy crappy games out there. But I guess I still play Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Curse of Monkey Island etc. on occasion, heaven forbid!
Why? They're good games. The graphics compared to today are complete garbage for the most part, but if the game is the good, and the art/graphics/design at least FITS the game and aren't horrid(i.e. don't work at all), well then, you have a good game.
Graphics should be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Would you rather have a bucket of icing or a cake without icing?
Ok probably both, but that's not the point!