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Is the term "Sandbox" losing its meaning?
Rayx0r
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,902
I frequent a certain game forum daily and today the discussion of whether or not said game would be considered "Sandbox". Among all of the traits a sandbox game has, the OP and several others within the thread focused on how quests where delivered and this seemed to be the overwhelming definition of sandbox. How linear was the story line.
Apparantly, its become common for gamers to think that any game that allows you to accept quests wherever you wish and travel wherever you wish without faction or physical bariers is considered "sandbox". Numerous game comparisons where thrown around and I felt completely out of touch with what was considered "sandbox" lately.
Everquest 1 and CIty of Heroes/Villains were mentioned as being "sandbox". Personally I consider EQ1 the first game to make the seperation between what a sandbox MMO is and what a theme-park MMO is. I always thought of EQ1 as the game that layed the framework for pez-dispenser connect the dot MMOs.
To me, games like Ultima Online, Eve Online, Second Life, SWG pre CU, Asherons Call in its hay-day are all sandbox games.
someone correct me if Im wrong, but isnt a sandbox MMO basically a game where the players create the majority of the content? They build the cities, the communities. The players create and maintain the economy? The players create the goods that are used? The players create the content and sometimes this is lead by the developers through ongoing and evolving storyline archs that change from day to day?
I mean, if EQ1 is a sandbox MMO then most MMO's on the market would be considered this as well?
I dont rant much, but I really felt like some of the newer folks to MMO's may not have a clue as to how flexible an MMO can be. Its a shame really.
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Comments
the ONLY games that come close to sandbox are ones that focus on skills (not guild wars style but actual skills). you cant claim sandbox unless the players have to level up digging or swimming to go about their daily lives. the old SWG was very much like this but with a brilliant twist. it took the sandbox gameplay (fire a pistol 200000 times and you get rank 2 pistols) and added a more MMO style twist (it seemed a lot like a talent tree).
games that i know are Sandbox:
Second Life
Wurm Online
Old SWG
thats all i have found so far. there are no doubt more but those are probably the best
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Ya I'll agree that theres a connection with skill-based games as opposed to level-based games. It seems the further MMO's get from skill based, the more linear the game is.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
I'm having the same thoughts as you RayxOr. Sandbox games aren't solely dictated by lack of linearity in storyline or character progression, although personally I would consider it to be a big part of it. But the main difference is as you said, and many will agree, the ability of players to shape the world and have an impact on both gameworld and story progression.
Ryzom was fun and considered primarily a sandbox.
In my opinion a sandbox game [be it a MMO or otherwise] Has the following attributes.
A large world with no artificial boundaries [unless you count edges assuming it as edges].
A basic NPC system to hep you get started.
A fairly safe area for anyone [but mainly for newbies] that is 90% safe [as in you are protected by NPC guards/police but anyone can pull out a weapon and try to kill you before he is killed by police].
Toys to play with and manipulate [things like horses carts houses walls castles etc].
A decent crafting system [so that a player made and run economy can be set up and one that is involved].
A few cash sinks to keep inflation down [things like destructible equipment or items that need a lot to build].
Let the players have a say in what new toys to add to the world.
This is a basic sandbox form and one that I've been playing online with for a few years and so far it seems to work just fine.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
I would say that the only True sandbox game is probably Second Life. That is the only game i can think of where you can absolutely do anything that you want.
While a agree that EQ was not a sandbox game it did have sandbox style things in it. Someone above mentioned having to learn to swim, EQ had that. Having to swing a sword X about of times to get better at using a sword, EQ had that. Having to use a spell X amount of times to get better at that spell, EQ had that.
EQ even made it necessary to eat and drink. So while EQ was not a sandbox game it was far more sandbox then the new style of MMOs. You had to explore in EQ, you had to wander around to find where the best places to hunt were. There were no quest lines that led you by hand from level to level.
And i dont think we will see a sandbox game again, i hope we do but i dont think so. Maybe Darkfall if it ever comes out will be close. And even if we do it will be a niche game with a smaller community (not that that is bad)
The larger population of gamers today want games like WoW where you dont have to worry about spending time on things you dont want. They want to be pointed in the fastest direction to max level and off they go. Sad i think. Even EQ is too sandbox for this breed of gamers.
Ya I'll agree that theres a connection with skill-based games as opposed to level-based games. It seems the further MMO's get from skill based, the more linear the game is.
I don't see any connection to skill based games, and being a sand box.
A sand box means you can change the game world, not your character. You can change the game world whether you use skills or classes.
Both skills and classes do the same thing, they increase power level of the character.
I am level 5. I have laser pistols at skill level 5.
I don't see how one makes a game a sandbox more than the other.
Personally, I like receiving skill points and spending them MUCH more than doing repetitive things to increase a skill. I don't want to shoot my laser pistol 20 million times to increase my skill. That just makes me shoot my laser pistol as much as possible, whether it's a good idea or not, so I can raise my skill.
Is the term Sandbox losing its meaning?
No, got one out in the front yard for the kids
Ya I'll agree that theres a connection with skill-based games as opposed to level-based games. It seems the further MMO's get from skill based, the more linear the game is.
I don't see any connection to skill based games, and being a sand box.
A sand box means you can change the game world, not your character. You can change the game world whether you use skills or classes.
Both skills and classes do the same thing, they increase power level of the character.
I am level 5. I have laser pistols at skill level 5.
I don't see how one makes a game a sandbox more than the other.
Personally, I like receiving skill points and spending them MUCH more than doing repetitive things to increase a skill. I don't want to shoot my laser pistol 20 million times to increase my skill. That just makes me shoot my laser pistol as much as possible, whether it's a good idea or not, so I can raise my skill.
the connection was just that every sandbox type MMO I can think of was/is skill based. I really cant think of one that isnt thats all I was trying comment on.
its not to say you cant have a level based game that is a sandbox MMO, Ive just not seen one yet. It also seems the more we delve into strict levels, race restrictions the more restrict the games are becoming
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
Fallen Earth hopefully and so far seems to be heading in that direction! Skill based and no more frikkin elves!
To me, a true sandbox does not have a class-based level structure or gear restrictions. You should be free to create any kind of character you want and use any equipment you want, provided you have the right stats and skills. Skill-based does not have to mean repetitive raising of skills though. EVE Online for example has a very different skill dynamic than UO. The important thing is having flexibility. For example a mage-type should be able to wield a two-handed sword or wear plate armor if he sets his mind to it. He won't be very good at it, and it might hinder his spell-casting but he should still be able to try. He would probably have to work up his Strength to even wield it, but the option is there if he works on it. In most class-based systems this is impossible.
Also the flexibility to change your focus after character creation is important to being a sandbox. Not just respeccing "talent trees" - but totally changing your skill set.
This is in addition to a player-shaped world, player cities / housing, player-driven economy, deep crafting, and open-ended gameplay as others in the thread have mentioned. These are all important elements of a sandbox. Very few games out now fit this description. In my experience the main ones are UO, EVE Online, and Wurm Online. Second Life is a tricky one - it can be so many things and definitely is a great creative / social sandbox but it has no built-in gameplay. SWG was a true sandbox at one time but we all know what happened there. Some games in development have potential like Darkfall and Fallen Earth.
I feel EVE online captures the spirit of most people's definition of a sandbox style game. The only plan I have for my characters is the one I've drawn up for myself (or gotten an assist from others in my corp). Nothing really guides my in any particular direction.
Yesterday I decided that perhaps instead of trying to make my mark as a combat pilot (which I'm clearly not so good at) I'd refocus my efforts on scouting, scan probing and recon. This has opened up a whole new world of things for me to learn and master, and once again, given me a new course of action.
No, I wasn't directed to it in anyway, just sort of something I determined might be the role for me.
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Second Life is a true sandbox.
Second Life is a sandbox in the sense that one occasionally finds bits of cat poop unexpectedly, and one is left with an uncomfortable and generally unhygienic feeling after too much play time.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1931890#1931890
Oh I don't know, in some cases part of this is coming off as subjective.
So if someone were to make a game where there was no linear storyline but the classes fell into "tank", "DD", "Healer" etc then it wouldn't be a sandbox game?
or if a game had a linear story but had many quests that weren't tied to the story as well as a variety of items that helped players make their own stories then it wouldn't be a sandbox game WITH an accompanying story?
I consider Lineage 2 a sandbox game and it has very few of the things mentioned in this (and other threads).
Very few emotes, definite classes, you can't build cities.
But the entire game is based on the player vs player interaction. That is the game. That is the story.
I suspect that Eve is similar.
And as someone already said, Second Life is the ultimate sandbox game. An entire world where the players can make whatever they want. Still, others would say that it isn't a game.
So I would say that a sandbox game is more about some sort of freedom for the players. There clearly is a difference between WoW, LOTRO and EVE, Second Life, Ryzom.
But after all this I really don't believe that the majority of players (because of the new influx of players) really want a sandbox game.
Heck, I can understand why. Seems to me that the energy and motivation is quite a lot when compared to a game like WoW and LOTRO.
Most people want to sign in, have some fun and then sign out.
I know this is different from early games but it seems to me that those that desire this old type of sandbox game are a minority. A vocal minority who found themselves on the internet and pursued a type of entertainment that the average person just wasn't interested in. Seems to me that there is a certain "geek factor" involved here.
Keep in mind I say "average person" and "geek factor" without any disparaging feelings.
But as we can see, in ALL media, the average person outnumbers those who desire a more eclectic experience. The real problem is that game developers walk such a tight line that I can easily see why they won't experiement.
Heck, look at AoC. Lots of Money, yet the sharks are circling.
Look at Ryzom. Space game, skills (and skills that players could actually create and alter) open world and it failed. On paper it looks great yet still it failed.
I'm afraid that until the costs of creating a game can be mitigated and the risks lowered, you are not going to see any completely open worlds. Not with fickle gamers.
Has anyone ever heard the statement about web pages? That your web page has to be easy to understand and navigate or else a person can just as easily and quickly find another site? Well, that's what games are. A developer can put so much work into a project but if it doesn't quite work as the players want they will say "what else do you have".
Wow... if I was a developer I would just do single player games if that is what I was facing.
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I've always considered that Sandbox meant "open ended" and "non linear" gameplay, i.e. a game that doesn't lead you through prescripted scenarios, but instead plonks you down in a functioning virtual world and lets you make your own choices on the type of adventure that you want to have in it.
I would agree that most people are casual gamers and just don't want a sandbox game.
the Sandbox term didn't lose it's meaning at all. It's the various game types that are considered a Sandbox game that would be applicable to the term Sandbox and another genre/type therefore causing issues to elitist of any direct discipline of gaming genre.
You got console game sandbox games like the G.T.A series, Assassin's Creed or any G.T.A styled game (Saint Rows). Then pretty much all MMORPGs are sandbox games. I would say that the Jaks series was a fairly Sandbox-Platform game.
The whole sandbox term was born out of the idea of a game being free-roaming, non-linear gameplay style. for MMORPGs they have the never-ending gameplay value, through expansions and other functions.
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It's true that the term sandbox has deteriorated since the release of WoW ,alot of people havent played a true sandbox ,they played WoW and some others and consider PotBS a sandbox for exemple.
The only true sandbox mmo on the market worth mentioning atm is EvE Online,the 2nd sandbox that "WAS" worth mentioning is pre-cu SWG,but thanks to Satan's Online Entertainment,it is no longer a sandbox.
To me sandbox style has only being achieved by a few games. I really believe that a sandbox style game has to have challenges, second life to me was nothing but a hodge podge of garbage, no real point in it other then social interaction. I think the only true sandbox style games out there are Eve, and Asherons Call. Now the reasons I say these are the only TRUE sandbox style games or MMO's out are quite simple.
1. There is no clear classes, no cookie cutter creation of your character unless you choose that, your class is yours from the start, and no one can force you to make it differently.
2. Free roam, lets face it in EVE if you want to just pick a dot hundreds of jumps away and go for it you can, In AC exploring lead to advancement as well pick a spot on the map and start running.
3. If you want to take part in world events or challenges you can and you feel like you make a difference, who can forget the great Crystal Defense in Asherons Call, Player killers sacraficing themselves to a crystal to level it up so that no one could kill it, to try and change the outcome of the monthly event.
These are lost in EVERY MMO out to date as far as I am concerned. People will drone on about SWG, LOTRO, or DDO, and maybe others saying your not locked into your class on these games. They are right but you have to level your character and advance your skills in a particular way the same as everyone else and when you look at your character vs someone else's your still, a doctor, or bard, or theif, just like EVERY other character on the server just a few small differences. Call them Feats, masteries, talents...etc, each character is essentially the same.
In EVE your characters skills are yours to raise at your will, I would seriously challenge someone to show me two characters that were not conciously created to be identical in skills in EVE. The same goes for Asherons Call, however since it has being out longer then all of these games most people follow a guide to show them the most effective character skills to use for what you want to do, hence NOW there would be identicle characters out there but not bottlenecked by the limits of the game, but instead by the limited knowledge of the players. In the begining of Asherons Call no one knew what to do so we all tried out different things, yes there were those people that specialized the JUMP skill or RUN skill in order to jump onto Trees, or be able to outrun a tusker. These people raised there stats and skills to fit what they wanted to do, and no one really could match them because every character was unique till the guides started comming out, explaining "battle mages", "Life mages"...etc.
EVE's exploring is good, vast space to hunt through but nothing really to find, that is the problem I found with it. You can find ore, but nothing else really, I could be wrong but I never did find a derelict alien space craft or anything did anyone else find a random encouter somewhere with that? Although the freedom is there to go where you want if you can survive the jump campers. Asheron's Call you could just run for hours and find all sorts of new things, and you had to dodge creatures that would eat you, or become more powerful to be able to survive them.
In the end is Sandbox style MMO's lost, I would say YES in modern games, hopefully EVE and Asherons call could spark it back but I think we are screwed into this style of game from now on where everything is linear, quests are picked up in order to advance you properly with an end game so people have something to strive for. Oh well just my 2 cents.
Like everything on a game, is not real. A sandbox game has the feel of freedom, that you can go anywhere, and play any rol you want.
As a example of sandbox games:
Morrowind.
A linear game ( as oposed to) has a linear historiline, and you are pushed trought it.
As a example of linear games:
Oblivium.
There are special games, like Fallout 1, that are both linear and sanbox (?!).
If you are refering to Oblivion ,it's a sandbox rpg aswell like morrowind,no one forces you to do the quest line.Also there is no such thing as a sandbox and linear game,they are in direct oposition.
refer to http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/032008/1421_Sandbox-versus-Linear-Gameplay
Anything with levels and progressive zones is NOT a sandbox. For example, specific zones for level 1-10, then another zone for 10-20... those are linear games.
Sandbox MMOs are skill based and are not based on railroad progression... you level what you want, not the next number after your current level.
Examples: SWG, UO, EVE, Second Life
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Skill-based systems are considered sandboxy becvause they allow you to pursue any type of character you want to be. Players create their own roles and play them out. You're not forced along a linear treadmill or anything. Newbies and Vets can skillup together, etc.
Players can be a pure crafter in a skill based RPG. Impossible in a linear MMO. Impossible....
There are sooo many diffs but I dont feel like typing them out anymore