Ok, one thing everyone keeps forgetting here about a HARSH DP.
While I am ALL FOR IT, I also think there should be ways to negate such things.
1: Ressurection such as EQ1 where you gained back the majority of your experience. Great idea, and should be implemented. This allowed a mini-economy within certain classes. At level 30 you get 30%, at level 50 you get 50%, etc... so if you have a high level ressurect you, then guess what, you barely lose any experience.
2. Summoning Corpses allows you to not have to go find your corpse and dosent require such a time sink, but did cost you in regants and finding a suitable player able to do such a spell. Again, certain classes were able to make a little extra cash for helping others out. Of course they could do it for free, but come on, who would do that? lol.
I used the Epeen comment as a direct response to all the "Carebear" type comments directed at me and those that agree with me. It was directed at those players who claim no game or gamer is worthy unless they can survive in a harsh DP enviroment. And yeah the term may have been a teen chat room comment, but we've been using it for about.. oh 10-12 years now.
Poppycock I say to all of that. Timesinks are not a harsh DP. It's an annoyance to see if you have the time, and the willingness to put up with doing MORE work. City of Heroes has the most ANNOYING Timesink in their Debt system. The game is repetitive enough without having to do double duty. BAH.
Now you claimed that there are at least 1,000,000 gamers that would probably like a harsh DP. I say there are 10 million that would never touch that game. Go see which game is going to get made. People inheirently choose the path of least resistance, or in this case, the path of least annoyance. Why do you think WoW is so popular? Which is amusing because they removed the Death timesinks and just tripled it in the end game... haha but I digress. Most of the people ranting about a "harsh DP" would probably play on an AoC "Harsh Server" for a few weeks. Then they'd drift off to the normal servers till only a few hundred were on the "harsh" server. Look at EQ back in it's day. The Rallos Zek server, harshest server of it heyday... always had the lowest population.
It's safe and easy to claim you want to play a "harsh DP" game, and demean those gamers that don't want one, grab the flag of "elite" gamer and mock all others as posers. But we all know such games never will be made again, at least not MMO wise. So come off it, we all know the truth.
First of all i never said that there were 1Million people who would play a game that has harsh death penalties, in fact i said that there would not be 1 Million players in that game. I also said that the people who want little to no death penalty and follow the bouncing ? type quest lines probably number much much more, but why should that mean no games with DPs should be made.
Lets say your thinking is right. WoW has been determined to be the best MMO model because it is grossly popular and brought millions and millions of people into the genre. So now all games should be made as closely to the WoW formula as possible. What will we have at the end of this, alot of WoW copies that nobody plays because they are already playing WoW, a bunch of games that get scrapped because the backers arent willing to put a game out that might not get WoW numbers, and a stagnet, watered down genre that is dying.
Now here is the other side. Im not saying that WoW isnt a good game and that WoW doesnt have a formula for success. Granted alot of WoWs numbers came from an existing player base that came over from there stand alone games but they created a product that would play on anything almost and was very easy to get into. WoW is the perfect casual game (until you get to the end, which only takes a couple months). But there is a pretty significant MMO player base that is not playing WoW and doesnt want to play WoW. How would it be bad business to target this audience vis trying to chip players away from WoW by creating a game that is very WoW like?
There are always going to be games like WoW that are widely popular, but there sould also be games that are more of a niche game for those that dont like what is widely popular. You may think that that is an insignificant number of players but i assure you that it isnt.
And it doesnt matter anyway. You didnt actually want to know why people like more harsh DPs (though i still argue that EQ was not all that harsh), you just wanted to tell those of us who actually did give reasons that we were wrong and SOL.
So hey, maybe you are right and in 5 years this genre will not even really exist anymore except for a game or two, but i hope that i am right and the developers will pull their heads out and remember that not all games have to have a million players and not all games have to be easy hand holding games that really dont require you to "Play" them at all.
qft
WoW is 100% easy mode. All reward and no risk. It's just not fun for me but is probably the biggest reason behind their success. Ultima Online had a good death penalty before they implemented stat-loss for red characters(which was completely bullshit and made me hate the game). Eve Online is a game with a harsh death penalty that has found its niche.
On that note, i would like to point out that xp loss is not a good death penalty. It's a cop out.
I've been working on an MMORPG design document for a long long time now, always researching, learning more and more about players AND games, conceptualizing and such... one thing I've been working on in a DEFEAT and DEATH system.
I won't go far into specifics but basically, for the most part, player characters can become 'defeated' with a minor DP that's fairly easy to recover... while during certain quests and epic encounters, characters can be afflicted with DEATH PENALTIES which are MUCH harsher [though the reward for these encounters would be worth it] and more difficult to recover from.
Players would of course be warned when they are about to do something that could be extremely dangerous to their well being hehe.
Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.
If there's no risk, the reward is pretty darn boring and not much of a reward.
It's like.. uh.. wanting your football team to touchdown.. without having any opponents trying to block them on the field. Or pick your sport analogy of choice.. hockey without goalies or opponants, basketball with 5 meter wide hoops at just about ground level etc etc. Whats the point of winning then?
I think MMO's should start having hardcore servers for the people who want ignorant schemes in their online play.
I play MMO's for fun. I don't want to have to come home from work, to work some more. When I die, I don't want to spend 30 minutes of my time recovering experience.
I've been playing MMO's since Ultima Online, and if there are 2 things I have learned.. it's this:
1: rushing to the highest level is the worst thing you can do.
2: death penalties are absolutely horrible. they are unwanted by the majority and the only purpose they serve is to piss people off to the point of not wanting to play anymore.. everquest 2 anyone?
Without death penalties, the game serves no purpose really. Whats the fun in playing if there is absolutely no risk?
WoW RUINED the MMO world with their "lets give everyone everything" system. People played it because there was nothing new, now people are used to having everything handed to them on a silver platter.
Think of it like this, before welfare, everyone had to work. Then once welfare was instated, everyone was handed everything for free. Now, if there was a system to come out where everyone on welfare actually had to do something to earn their keep, there would be outcry.
Give us a hardcore server, that solves it. I could care less if people want to play on a give-me-everything-now server, but I want to feel accomplished. And I tell you what, I bet the people on the server with a harsh death penalty will experience a TOTALLY different game, yet the same, only because the RISK is there. There is no such thing as adrenaline pumping in games like World of Warcraft compared to Eve.
Simply put, I miss having my heart beat go over 150 - I miss yelling at my computer screen - and most of all, I miss ACCOMPLISHMENT.
I'm afraid the days or real in game death penalties are long gone... Who wants to play a game where dying is painful when they can play a game where dying is trivial? Maybe some old school people but lets face it Wow has redefined the standard for MMORGPs and people who have played wow won't accept a death penalty other then a free teleport to a safe spot and a few gold lost...
It's kinda sad cause as an old time EQ player I'm becoming a relic and many people have no idea why you would want a real death penalty. And alas most people are just incapable of understanding why entertainment you pay for shouldn't be nonstop pleasentries...
For me playing an MMORPG is more of a sport then spoon fed entertainment like the TV. I find the latter rather boring and dull. Certainly it is devoid of any strong emotions. Where as a sport there is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. This is I think the core of what separates the two schools of through on death penalties.
One group sees an MMORPG as a sport. Where you work to achieve something and you are constantly challenged. If you are not upto the task you are defeated and suffer a penalty that hurts and causes you real grief.
The second group sees an MMORPG as just entertainment like watching a TV show. They want to run through it and not have any pain along the way. Just follow the dotted line to the end and be happy the whole way.
Both groups need it to be entertaining so there are definite overlaps.
One problem is that once you are in the second group of if that is the extent of your experience you really can't understand the first group. Because everything is similar the concept is hard to comprehend...
I will say the first group is far more likely to be social and far more mature and helpful. Since you are challenged you are forced to help each other succeed. You also fear and hate death which make beating it far more exhilerating.
From eq1 I can remember running through some zone where the mobs were agro and I had little chance in a direct encounter solo. Also in eq many times you had no run speed bufs so if you got agro you were likely dead. Yes if you died it was like god damn it.... you were looking at a corpse run, finding your corpse and then to make matters worse lost xp. Even worse you probably died in a bad place meaning if you died the first time you are far more likely to die second time. But if you made it I'm telling you your heart might be pounding, you might be sweating and even shaking and you were seriously thrilled. Thats a physical rush! If you died, knowing how tough it was to get back the reasonably smart person would ask for help. This is what drove the community in EQ. Players had to help one anohter. There were frequently people asking for help and when you heard it you remembered the last time you died and the 4-5 people that came to your aid and you pay them back now by helping this person.
Anyway it is probably impossible for people in the second group to comprehend this but I remember to this day many of my deaths in eq and the people that helped me became long time friends or names I remember even now around 10 years later. I have so many memories of times in EQ it makes me wonder what was wrong with my memory in eq2 and wow... Did nothing memorable happen in these games or is it that there was never any real feeling tied to any event? Why is it that defeating a raid in EQ is a memorable event while doing one in wow is not? Is it just me or was their some intrinsic quality that made one more emotional and memorable?!
Comments
Ok, one thing everyone keeps forgetting here about a HARSH DP.
While I am ALL FOR IT, I also think there should be ways to negate such things.
1: Ressurection such as EQ1 where you gained back the majority of your experience. Great idea, and should be implemented. This allowed a mini-economy within certain classes. At level 30 you get 30%, at level 50 you get 50%, etc... so if you have a high level ressurect you, then guess what, you barely lose any experience.
2. Summoning Corpses allows you to not have to go find your corpse and dosent require such a time sink, but did cost you in regants and finding a suitable player able to do such a spell. Again, certain classes were able to make a little extra cash for helping others out. Of course they could do it for free, but come on, who would do that? lol.
For me, fun from an MMO comes from risk vs reward. I love the feeling of knowing that when I killed someone, he lost something. It's why I play MMOs.
Lets say your thinking is right. WoW has been determined to be the best MMO model because it is grossly popular and brought millions and millions of people into the genre. So now all games should be made as closely to the WoW formula as possible. What will we have at the end of this, alot of WoW copies that nobody plays because they are already playing WoW, a bunch of games that get scrapped because the backers arent willing to put a game out that might not get WoW numbers, and a stagnet, watered down genre that is dying.
Now here is the other side. Im not saying that WoW isnt a good game and that WoW doesnt have a formula for success. Granted alot of WoWs numbers came from an existing player base that came over from there stand alone games but they created a product that would play on anything almost and was very easy to get into. WoW is the perfect casual game (until you get to the end, which only takes a couple months). But there is a pretty significant MMO player base that is not playing WoW and doesnt want to play WoW. How would it be bad business to target this audience vis trying to chip players away from WoW by creating a game that is very WoW like?
There are always going to be games like WoW that are widely popular, but there sould also be games that are more of a niche game for those that dont like what is widely popular. You may think that that is an insignificant number of players but i assure you that it isnt.
And it doesnt matter anyway. You didnt actually want to know why people like more harsh DPs (though i still argue that EQ was not all that harsh), you just wanted to tell those of us who actually did give reasons that we were wrong and SOL.
So hey, maybe you are right and in 5 years this genre will not even really exist anymore except for a game or two, but i hope that i am right and the developers will pull their heads out and remember that not all games have to have a million players and not all games have to be easy hand holding games that really dont require you to "Play" them at all.
qftWoW is 100% easy mode. All reward and no risk. It's just not fun for me but is probably the biggest reason behind their success. Ultima Online had a good death penalty before they implemented stat-loss for red characters(which was completely bullshit and made me hate the game). Eve Online is a game with a harsh death penalty that has found its niche.
On that note, i would like to point out that xp loss is not a good death penalty. It's a cop out.
DEFEAT vs. DEATH PENALTY
I've been working on an MMORPG design document for a long long time now, always researching, learning more and more about players AND games, conceptualizing and such... one thing I've been working on in a DEFEAT and DEATH system.
I won't go far into specifics but basically, for the most part, player characters can become 'defeated' with a minor DP that's fairly easy to recover... while during certain quests and epic encounters, characters can be afflicted with DEATH PENALTIES which are MUCH harsher [though the reward for these encounters would be worth it] and more difficult to recover from.
Players would of course be warned when they are about to do something that could be extremely dangerous to their well being hehe.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
If there's no risk, the reward is pretty darn boring and not much of a reward.
It's like.. uh.. wanting your football team to touchdown.. without having any opponents trying to block them on the field. Or pick your sport analogy of choice.. hockey without goalies or opponants, basketball with 5 meter wide hoops at just about ground level etc etc. Whats the point of winning then?
I think MMO's should start having hardcore servers for the people who want ignorant schemes in their online play.
I play MMO's for fun. I don't want to have to come home from work, to work some more. When I die, I don't want to spend 30 minutes of my time recovering experience.
I've been playing MMO's since Ultima Online, and if there are 2 things I have learned.. it's this:
1: rushing to the highest level is the worst thing you can do.
2: death penalties are absolutely horrible. they are unwanted by the majority and the only purpose they serve is to piss people off to the point of not wanting to play anymore.. everquest 2 anyone?
Without death penalties, the game serves no purpose really. Whats the fun in playing if there is absolutely no risk?
WoW RUINED the MMO world with their "lets give everyone everything" system. People played it because there was nothing new, now people are used to having everything handed to them on a silver platter.
Think of it like this, before welfare, everyone had to work. Then once welfare was instated, everyone was handed everything for free. Now, if there was a system to come out where everyone on welfare actually had to do something to earn their keep, there would be outcry.
Give us a hardcore server, that solves it. I could care less if people want to play on a give-me-everything-now server, but I want to feel accomplished. And I tell you what, I bet the people on the server with a harsh death penalty will experience a TOTALLY different game, yet the same, only because the RISK is there. There is no such thing as adrenaline pumping in games like World of Warcraft compared to Eve.
Simply put, I miss having my heart beat go over 150 - I miss yelling at my computer screen - and most of all, I miss ACCOMPLISHMENT.
I'm afraid the days or real in game death penalties are long gone... Who wants to play a game where dying is painful when they can play a game where dying is trivial? Maybe some old school people but lets face it Wow has redefined the standard for MMORGPs and people who have played wow won't accept a death penalty other then a free teleport to a safe spot and a few gold lost...
It's kinda sad cause as an old time EQ player I'm becoming a relic and many people have no idea why you would want a real death penalty. And alas most people are just incapable of understanding why entertainment you pay for shouldn't be nonstop pleasentries...
For me playing an MMORPG is more of a sport then spoon fed entertainment like the TV. I find the latter rather boring and dull. Certainly it is devoid of any strong emotions. Where as a sport there is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. This is I think the core of what separates the two schools of through on death penalties.
One group sees an MMORPG as a sport. Where you work to achieve something and you are constantly challenged. If you are not upto the task you are defeated and suffer a penalty that hurts and causes you real grief.
The second group sees an MMORPG as just entertainment like watching a TV show. They want to run through it and not have any pain along the way. Just follow the dotted line to the end and be happy the whole way.
Both groups need it to be entertaining so there are definite overlaps.
One problem is that once you are in the second group of if that is the extent of your experience you really can't understand the first group. Because everything is similar the concept is hard to comprehend...
I will say the first group is far more likely to be social and far more mature and helpful. Since you are challenged you are forced to help each other succeed. You also fear and hate death which make beating it far more exhilerating.
From eq1 I can remember running through some zone where the mobs were agro and I had little chance in a direct encounter solo. Also in eq many times you had no run speed bufs so if you got agro you were likely dead. Yes if you died it was like god damn it.... you were looking at a corpse run, finding your corpse and then to make matters worse lost xp. Even worse you probably died in a bad place meaning if you died the first time you are far more likely to die second time. But if you made it I'm telling you your heart might be pounding, you might be sweating and even shaking and you were seriously thrilled. Thats a physical rush! If you died, knowing how tough it was to get back the reasonably smart person would ask for help. This is what drove the community in EQ. Players had to help one anohter. There were frequently people asking for help and when you heard it you remembered the last time you died and the 4-5 people that came to your aid and you pay them back now by helping this person.
Anyway it is probably impossible for people in the second group to comprehend this but I remember to this day many of my deaths in eq and the people that helped me became long time friends or names I remember even now around 10 years later. I have so many memories of times in EQ it makes me wonder what was wrong with my memory in eq2 and wow... Did nothing memorable happen in these games or is it that there was never any real feeling tied to any event? Why is it that defeating a raid in EQ is a memorable event while doing one in wow is not? Is it just me or was their some intrinsic quality that made one more emotional and memorable?!
---
Ethion