Honestly, if it's lame and has overt levels, I want nothing to do with it.
I want to be able to group and advance with more advanced players. And less advanced players.
I'm sick to death of level systems.
The game needs to be skill based, it needs to be non-linear, it needs to be fun and engaging, it needs to allow for exploration and growth in an organic manner, not in one dreamed up over coffee and donuts in a conference room somewhere.
It needs to be a virtual world, not an obvious game.
Oh, and it shouldn't be half-baked upon going gold like nearly every other MMO out there nowadays.
Yes, I'm a dreamer.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Sorry, but it is you who are kidding yourself. The fact is. pre-CU vets have changed the entire industry and have prevented SOE from having a successful game since.
The fact that SOE has not given in and ammended their ethical mistake has hurt them.
Also, every new game that has come along has had to promise they will never do what SOE did.
As I said to the other guy, watch and learn.
That isn't fact, it's your opinion. I've yet to see any proof whatsoever that the pre-CU vets (of which, incidentally, I am one - I simply moved on to play other games and have never involved myself in the rather pointless ranting against SOE) have had any effect on anything other than the population figures of SWG itself (and that itself is arguable).
Watch and learn? For how long? It's been YEARS and what exactly have you achieved? And show me where AoC, PotBS or in fact *any* new MMO has explicitly promised 'not to do what SOE did'. And how can you argue (i.e. - present tangible proof to the fact) that EQ2 does not continue to enjoy success or that the vets have caused it any damage in the least?
You seem so blinded by your anger that it hardly seems worth debating the issue with you any more - lets face it, no matter what is said here you'll continue to believe that the 'pre-CU vets' are somehow guiding the MMO industry despite the fact the vast majority of MMO players probably haven't ever visited a games forum for anything other than tech help and have no idea what you guys are even arguing about.
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
SOE will never have a sucessful PC title ever, ever, again. man, look at vanguard, their dc mmo if it doesn't go to console will be empty, watch and see, and it's all because of SWG. SOE hasn't realized it's not the big kid on the block anymore and no one wants to put up with their bs, they are a peanuts company now and good for them, they deserve it. the only people still playing their buggy crap are the addicts that haven't woken up to how a real company treats their customers and real games.
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
SOE will never have a sucessful PC title ever, ever, again. man, look at vanguard, their dc mmo if it doesn't go to console will be empty, watch and see, and it's all because of SWG. SOE hasn't realized it's not the big kid on the block anymore and no one wants to put up with their bs, they are a peanuts company now and good for them, they deserve it. the only people still playing their buggy crap are the addicts that haven't woken up to how a real company treats their customers and real games.
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
the bar has been raised to what a successful mmo is. this is the 21st century, in the 21st century no eq2 is not a successful mmo. uhh and yeah vanguard is SOE trash, i don't remember any other publisher releasing it before?
the bar has been raised to what a successful mmo is. this is the 21st century, in the 21st century no eq2 is not a successful mmo. uhh and yeah vanguard is SOE trash, i don't remember any other publisher releasing it before?
look at SOE plummet www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html oh and EQ1 was more successful in its day than swg or eq2 combined, back when SOE created their rep and were the big fish.
So if you don't class EQ2 as a successful mmo, I assume you only class WoW as such?
Incidentally, Vanguard was originall developed and co-published by Sigil Online - it was only several months after the release that SOE took over sole publishing rights, and by then the game was already in trouble.
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
the bar has been raised to what a successful mmo is. this is the 21st century, in the 21st century no eq2 is not a successful mmo. uhh and yeah vanguard is SOE trash, i don't remember any other publisher releasing it before?
look at SOE plummet www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html oh and EQ1 was more successful in its day than swg or eq2 combined, back when SOE created their rep and were the big fish.
So if you don't class EQ2 as a successful mmo, I assume you only class WoW as such?
Incidentally, Vanguard was originall developed and co-published by Sigil Online - it was only several months after the release that SOE took over sole publishing rights, and by then the game was already in trouble.
They aren't even in the same class, strange that we're approaching an age in mmo's that has seen more players than ever and the younger generation grow up with this age. my 8 year old son plays mmo's, (wow guild wars) and the only thing SOE can do is crash on a graph, that's not success. what happened around 2005? as soon as SOE was announced as the publisher for vanguard people ran away like the plague, it's not going to get better.
They aren't even in the same class, strange that we're approaching an age in mmo's that has seen more players than ever and the younger generation grow up with this age. my 8 year old son plays mmo's, (wow guild wars) and the only thing SOE can do is crash on a graph, that's not success. what happened around 2005? as soon as SOE was announced as the publisher for vanguard people ran away like the plague, it's not going to get better.
What happened around 2005? Blizzard released WoW - as you can see from the chart you linked too, every game seemed to suffer a drop in numbers around that time. Incidentally, the chart only takes EQ2 as far as 2007 but even then it seems to be only beaten on player numbers by a couple of games. How do you not class that as successful (and which MMo's do you call successful then?). In fact, according to that data the original EQ was still outperforming many of the newer MMO's in 2007 (again the data only goes that far for that game).
I'm sorry we disagree, but I just don't think SOE are doing all that badly compared to other publishers out there (with the exeption of Blizzard who must be raking it in )
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
They aren't even in the same class, strange that we're approaching an age in mmo's that has seen more players than ever and the younger generation grow up with this age. my 8 year old son plays mmo's, (wow guild wars) and the only thing SOE can do is crash on a graph, that's not success. what happened around 2005? as soon as SOE was announced as the publisher for vanguard people ran away like the plague, it's not going to get better.
What happened around 2005? Blizzard released WoW - as you can see from the chart you linked too, every game seemed to suffer a drop in numbers around that time. Incidentally, the chart only takes EQ2 as far as 2007 but even then it seems to be only beaten on player numbers by a couple of games. How do you not class that as successful (and which MMo's do you call successful then?). In fact, according to that data the original EQ was still outperforming many of the newer MMO's in 2007 (again the data only goes that far for that game).
I'm sorry we disagree, but I just don't think SOE are doing all that badly compared to other publishers out there (with the exeption of Blizzard who must be raking it in )
you got it all wrong, pretty much only the SOE games crash on the graph, the other's go up. saying blizzard released wow in 2005 doesn't wash there's plenty to go around, crap more kids play runescape than ever played everquest. wow didn't kill SOE, SOE killed SOE. it's just a small part of a huge corporation with huge purchasing power and bad ethics... bad combo.
you got it all wrong, pretty much only the SOE games crash on the graph, the other's go up. saying blizzard released wow in 2005 doesn't wash there's plenty to go around, crap more kids play runescape than ever played everquest. wow didn't kill SOE, SOE killed SOE. it's just a small part of a huge corporation with huge purchasing power and bad ethics... bad combo.
another graph www.mmogchart.com/Chart4.html your going to see this trend continue until sony chops off SOE or they move out of the PC market entirely.
According to the those charts friend, EQ1 & 2 were still in 2007 attracting more subscribers than most ofthe other MMO's listed. The date for EQ2 in fact ends with it undergoing an upswing. I imagine the recent expansions have also helped maintain that, but of course I don't know.
Who killed SOE? No-one, is the answer to that. They continue to develop games for the PC and Playstation 3. You must have noticed?
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
you got it all wrong, pretty much only the SOE games crash on the graph, the other's go up. saying blizzard released wow in 2005 doesn't wash there's plenty to go around, crap more kids play runescape than ever played everquest. wow didn't kill SOE, SOE killed SOE. it's just a small part of a huge corporation with huge purchasing power and bad ethics... bad combo.
another graph www.mmogchart.com/Chart4.html your going to see this trend continue until sony chops off SOE or they move out of the PC market entirely.
According to the those charts friend, EQ1 & 2 were still in 2007 attracting more subscribers than the other MMO's listed. The date for EQ2 in fact ends with it undergoing an upswing. I imagine the recent expansions have also helped maintain that, but of course I don't know.
Who killed SOE? No-one, is the answer to that. They continue to develop games for the PC and Playstation 3. You must have noticed?
than the other mmo's listed... that's only the 70-700k chart check the 200k+ chart. we can basically argue about this all day but you can clearly see that SOE games are in decline while other developers games are gaining subs... and as more developers come on the scene SOE will continue to lose subs, as the population off mmo subscribers increases, it's simple. the PC market is through with them.
than the other mmo's listed... that's only the 70-700k chart check the 200k+ chart. we can basically argue about this all day but you can clearly see that SOE games are in decline while other developers games are gaining subs... and as more developers come on the scene SOE will continue to lose subs, as the population off mmo subscribers increases, it's simple. the PC market is through with them.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense. Looking at the 0-120k chart shows that the SOE games outperfom all the ones listed there (by virtue of appearing on the next chart up).
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
*edited after indeed looking at the other charts*
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
I love StarWars and the games that were made for consoles and pc. I hated SWG.
Honestly, since this thread turned into a SOE bashing session again, I think that both SOE and Lucas are to blame for what happened to SWG. I like bioware's games immensely. I think that if they created a new star wars mmo it would probably rock hard.
Im just skeptical of Lucas Arts. They are the big boss man when it comes down to what will be in the game and what will get changed or destroyed. So the game might very well be totally freakin awesome. I think though it will be a huge cluster F#%K.
If it all goes to hell of course Bioware will get blamed for everything, and Lucas Arts will move onto its next victim. Make a game of star wars just make damn sure LA stays out of the mix.
than the other mmo's listed... that's only the 70-700k chart check the 200k+ chart. we can basically argue about this all day but you can clearly see that SOE games are in decline while other developers games are gaining subs... and as more developers come on the scene SOE will continue to lose subs, as the population off mmo subscribers increases, it's simple. the PC market is through with them.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense.
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
ok let's look at it over 5 years.. in 2003 SOE's market share in mmo's was 19.5% in 2008 SOE's market share in mmo's is 3.7%. in 2003 they actually had close to 1 million subs over 4 games now they have almost 600k over 8 games, remember this is as the market grows exponentially, that = fail.
than the other mmo's listed... that's only the 70-700k chart check the 200k+ chart. we can basically argue about this all day but you can clearly see that SOE games are in decline while other developers games are gaining subs... and as more developers come on the scene SOE will continue to lose subs, as the population off mmo subscribers increases, it's simple. the PC market is through with them.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense.
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
ok let's look at it over 5 years.. in 2003 SOE's market share in mmo's was 19.5% in 2008 SOE's market share in mmo's is 3.7%. in 2003 they actually had close to 1 million subs over 4 games now they have almost 600k over 8 games, remember this is as the market grows exponentially, that = fail.
It's pretty difficult to argue with those numbers. I am certain, however, that the fanbois will still try.
than the other mmo's listed... that's only the 70-700k chart check the 200k+ chart. we can basically argue about this all day but you can clearly see that SOE games are in decline while other developers games are gaining subs... and as more developers come on the scene SOE will continue to lose subs, as the population off mmo subscribers increases, it's simple. the PC market is through with them.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense.
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
ok let's look at it over 5 years.. in 2003 SOE's market share in mmo's was 19.5% in 2008 SOE's market share in mmo's is 3.7%. in 2003 they actually had close to 1 million subs over 4 games now they have almost 600k over 8 games, remember this is as the market grows exponentially, that = fail.
It's pretty difficult to argue with those numbers. I am certain, however, that the fanbois will still try.
funny thing is they are making roughly the same money if everyones on station pass $25 x 600k is 15mil a month same as paying $15 a month for 1 game in 03' ....making sense? they can't keep it going forever though...
Originally posted by the_lizard funny thing is they are making roughly the same money if everyones on station pass $25 x 600k is 15mil a month same as paying $15 a month for 1 game in 03' ....making sense? they can't keep it going forever though...
I would be willing to bet that the majority of their customers aren't on the station pass.
I'm not being absurd in the least; I'm being realistic. Markets are driven by minorities; not majorities. A vocal minority can kill your business. Any SW MMO that does not please pre-CU vets will fail due to bad viral marketing.
Sorry, but you are kidding yourself. The pre-CU vets have not driven SOE to make a pre-CU server or managed to make any dent in the player figures for any of the other SOE games - this is because non 'pre-CU Vets' (i.e. - the majority of gamers) don't actually give a rats ass about their ancient grievances and certainly aren't going to be put off playing a new SW MMO just because the relatively small clique of 'vets' are still spitting the dummy out about something that is years-old news.
How you can think otherwise (or believe in the massive self importanceof the pre-CU vets your posts suggest) or that a 'please this small group or you'll fail!!' argument is 'being realistic' is beyond me.
we have driven alot of people away from giving $OE money for swg.
we have made a big dent in the other games.
not only that but look at how well a game like eve is doing. most of the swg vets went to eve and it is growing faster every day. i won't put it past eve hitting a million subs by the end of the year.
so trust me we are the players bioware wants to go after. not the warcraft kids or xbot kids but the real pc gamers.
Have you forgotten that gaming doyen EA owns Bioware now? yes they make real hardcore games dont they
When it comes right down to it..I wont play SWG cuz I cant play the game that I spent my money on (the game on the box was the one i wanted to play) so i guess it depends fully on Bioware and what they put forth...not sayin it has to be skillbased and/or sandbox (though these were part of what drew me to SWG in the first place) but give me wide rangeing options and the ability to change my mind as the whim takes me and yer golden (respecing in the same class dosent count)...Bio..if you are workin on a starwars mmo..make the best game you can and take pride in yer work..the rest will fall into place
Build a man a fire...he will be warm for a night...Light a man on fire...he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Originally posted by Kesran Originally posted by Fishermage
Sorry, but it is you who are kidding yourself. The fact is. pre-CU vets have changed the entire industry and have prevented SOE from having a successful game since.
The fact that SOE has not given in and ammended their ethical mistake has hurt them. Also, every new game that has come along has had to promise they will never do what SOE did. As I said to the other guy, watch and learn. That isn't fact, it's your opinion. I've yet to see any proof whatsoever that the pre-CU vets (of which, incidentally, I am one - I simply moved on to play other games and have never involved myself in the rather pointless ranting against SOE) have had any effect on anything other than the population figures of SWG itself (and that itself is arguable). Watch and learn? For how long? It's been YEARS and what exactly have you achieved? And show me where AoC, PotBS or in fact *any* new MMO has explicitly promised 'not to do what SOE did'. And how can you argue (i.e. - present tangible proof to the fact) that EQ2 does not continue to enjoy success or that the vets have caused it any damage in the least? You seem so blinded by your anger that it hardly seems worth debating the issue with you any more - lets face it, no matter what is said here you'll continue to believe that the 'pre-CU vets' are somehow guiding the MMO industry despite the fact the vast majority of MMO players probably haven't ever visited a games forum for anything other than tech help and have no idea what you guys are even arguing about.
Of course I am only sharing my opinion, an opinion that fits with all the facts -- SOE has not been doing all that well since the NGE, and has not had one success.
I'm not the least bit angry, in fact, I'm almost never angry, last time I got angry was 9/11. None of this ever made me angry -- not even close. That's a fact, not an opinion.
I never said pre-CU vets are "guiding" anything, merely said that the NGE, and how it affected everything, has had a ripple effect throughout the industry, and it has. I believe only wha the facts have shown. You are free to believe otherwise of course, and then to attempt to psychoanalyze me to to explain our difference of opinion. I won't, however, do the same to you, just disagree.
Originally posted by Kesran Originally posted by the_lizard SOE will never have a sucessful PC title ever, ever, again. man, look at vanguard, their dc mmo if it doesn't go to console will be empty, watch and see, and it's all because of SWG. SOE hasn't realized it's not the big kid on the block anymore and no one wants to put up with their bs, they are a peanuts company now and good for them, they deserve it. the only people still playing their buggy crap are the addicts that haven't woken up to how a real company treats their customers and real games.
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it). As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
It may have failed for many reasons, but it still failed on SOE's watch. When SOE does produce a post-NGE success, then we'll know they have gotten out from under the shadow of the NGE. Until then, feel free to spin the facts as you please, and explain away another SOE failure.
SOE will never have a sucessful PC title ever, ever, again. man, look at vanguard, their dc mmo if it doesn't go to console will be empty, watch and see, and it's all because of SWG. SOE hasn't realized it's not the big kid on the block anymore and no one wants to put up with their bs, they are a peanuts company now and good for them, they deserve it. the only people still playing their buggy crap are the addicts that haven't woken up to how a real company treats their customers and real games.
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
It may have failed for many reasons, but it still failed on SOE's watch. When SOE does produce a post-NGE success, then we'll know they have gotten out from under the shadow of the NGE. Until then, feel free to spin the facts as you please, and explain away another SOE failure.
Also after SOE loaned Sigil a bunch of money they put a ton of pressure on Brad and company to release the game before it was ready. SOE didn't develop Vanguard but it certainly had a hand in it's disastrous launch.
It may have failed for many reasons, but it still failed on SOE's watch. When SOE does produce a post-NGE success, then we'll know they have gotten out from under the shadow of the NGE. Until then, feel free to spin the facts as you please, and explain away another SOE failure.
Not trying to spin anything - have no particular interest in seeing SOE succeed or fail, and don't particularly care either way. Am not currently playing an SOE game but would do so again without a thought if I liked the game. Simply disagreed with some of the views posted .
But to follow your lead from an earlier reply, I'm happy just to say I disagree with you .
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
Originally posted by Kesran Originally posted by Fishermage
It may have failed for many reasons, but it still failed on SOE's watch. When SOE does produce a post-NGE success, then we'll know they have gotten out from under the shadow of the NGE. Until then, feel free to spin the facts as you please, and explain away another SOE failure.
Not trying to spin anything - have no particular interest in seeing SOE succeed or fail, and don't particularly care either way. Am not currently playing an SOE game but would do so again without a thought if I liked the game. Simply disagreed with some of the views posted . But to follow your lead from an earlier reply, I'm happy just to say I disagree with you .
Also after SOE loaned Sigil a bunch of money they put a ton of pressure on Brad and company to release the game before it was ready. SOE didn't develop Vanguard but it certainly had a hand in it's disastrous launch.
Enough is enough..Vanguard needed more or less another 2 years solid devolpment time to get it in a stable state..do you think,honesly Sigil could have done it? i played the beta early on and i know how bad it was,Sigil ate money and after 6 years of dev time it still wasnt ready MS saw the light and bailed on it SOE came in gave yet more money but wanted it out fast (a mistake but it was thier call) otherwise it was nothing more than vapourware.
As it stands now over a year after launch its not perfect,far from it but its 100% better than the mess Sigil left it in,blame SOE for most things but in Vanguards case its a better game for thier involvement,the only shame is that the current dev team didnt make it from the off becuase simply given the world and the size of it it would have been a hell of a game (probably the closest thing to SWG size wise),but as i say SOE wanted to see some return on thier investment (as no doubt did Sigils other investors) but in no way were brad and merry band of idiots capable of bringing a game to market in stable state..SOE's dev team have taken the patient and brought it off the life support system sadly though all a bit to late IMO.
But for vanguards woes blame Brad and Sigil not SOE.
Comments
Honestly, if it's lame and has overt levels, I want nothing to do with it.
I want to be able to group and advance with more advanced players. And less advanced players.
I'm sick to death of level systems.
The game needs to be skill based, it needs to be non-linear, it needs to be fun and engaging, it needs to allow for exploration and growth in an organic manner, not in one dreamed up over coffee and donuts in a conference room somewhere.
It needs to be a virtual world, not an obvious game.
Oh, and it shouldn't be half-baked upon going gold like nearly every other MMO out there nowadays.
Yes, I'm a dreamer.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
The fact that SOE has not given in and ammended their ethical mistake has hurt them.
Also, every new game that has come along has had to promise they will never do what SOE did.
As I said to the other guy, watch and learn.
That isn't fact, it's your opinion. I've yet to see any proof whatsoever that the pre-CU vets (of which, incidentally, I am one - I simply moved on to play other games and have never involved myself in the rather pointless ranting against SOE) have had any effect on anything other than the population figures of SWG itself (and that itself is arguable).
Watch and learn? For how long? It's been YEARS and what exactly have you achieved? And show me where AoC, PotBS or in fact *any* new MMO has explicitly promised 'not to do what SOE did'. And how can you argue (i.e. - present tangible proof to the fact) that EQ2 does not continue to enjoy success or that the vets have caused it any damage in the least?
You seem so blinded by your anger that it hardly seems worth debating the issue with you any more - lets face it, no matter what is said here you'll continue to believe that the 'pre-CU vets' are somehow guiding the MMO industry despite the fact the vast majority of MMO players probably haven't ever visited a games forum for anything other than tech help and have no idea what you guys are even arguing about.
----------------------------
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
----------------------------
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
the bar has been raised to what a successful mmo is. this is the 21st century, in the 21st century no eq2 is not a successful mmo. uhh and yeah vanguard is SOE trash, i don't remember any other publisher releasing it before?
look at SOE plummet www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
oh and EQ1 was more successful in its day than swg or eq2 combined, back when SOE created their rep and were the big fish.
So if you don't class EQ2 as a successful mmo, I assume you only class WoW as such?
Incidentally, Vanguard was originall developed and co-published by Sigil Online - it was only several months after the release that SOE took over sole publishing rights, and by then the game was already in trouble.
----------------------------
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
So if you don't class EQ2 as a successful mmo, I assume you only class WoW as such?
Incidentally, Vanguard was originall developed and co-published by Sigil Online - it was only several months after the release that SOE took over sole publishing rights, and by then the game was already in trouble.
They aren't even in the same class, strange that we're approaching an age in mmo's that has seen more players than ever and the younger generation grow up with this age. my 8 year old son plays mmo's, (wow guild wars) and the only thing SOE can do is crash on a graph, that's not success. what happened around 2005? as soon as SOE was announced as the publisher for vanguard people ran away like the plague, it's not going to get better.
What happened around 2005? Blizzard released WoW - as you can see from the chart you linked too, every game seemed to suffer a drop in numbers around that time. Incidentally, the chart only takes EQ2 as far as 2007 but even then it seems to be only beaten on player numbers by a couple of games. How do you not class that as successful (and which MMo's do you call successful then?). In fact, according to that data the original EQ was still outperforming many of the newer MMO's in 2007 (again the data only goes that far for that game).
I'm sorry we disagree, but I just don't think SOE are doing all that badly compared to other publishers out there (with the exeption of Blizzard who must be raking it in
)
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Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
What happened around 2005? Blizzard released WoW - as you can see from the chart you linked too, every game seemed to suffer a drop in numbers around that time. Incidentally, the chart only takes EQ2 as far as 2007 but even then it seems to be only beaten on player numbers by a couple of games. How do you not class that as successful (and which MMo's do you call successful then?). In fact, according to that data the original EQ was still outperforming many of the newer MMO's in 2007 (again the data only goes that far for that game).
I'm sorry we disagree, but I just don't think SOE are doing all that badly compared to other publishers out there (with the exeption of Blizzard who must be raking it in
)
you got it all wrong, pretty much only the SOE games crash on the graph, the other's go up. saying blizzard released wow in 2005 doesn't wash there's plenty to go around, crap more kids play runescape than ever played everquest. wow didn't kill SOE, SOE killed SOE. it's just a small part of a huge corporation with huge purchasing power and bad ethics... bad combo.another graph www.mmogchart.com/Chart4.html
your going to see this trend continue until sony chops off SOE or they move out of the PC market entirely.
According to the those charts friend, EQ1 & 2 were still in 2007 attracting more subscribers than most ofthe other MMO's listed. The date for EQ2 in fact ends with it undergoing an upswing. I imagine the recent expansions have also helped maintain that, but of course I don't know.
Who killed SOE? No-one, is the answer to that. They continue to develop games for the PC and Playstation 3. You must have noticed?
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Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
According to the those charts friend, EQ1 & 2 were still in 2007 attracting more subscribers than the other MMO's listed. The date for EQ2 in fact ends with it undergoing an upswing. I imagine the recent expansions have also helped maintain that, but of course I don't know.
Who killed SOE? No-one, is the answer to that. They continue to develop games for the PC and Playstation 3. You must have noticed?
than the other mmo's listed... that's only the 70-700k chart check the 200k+ chart. we can basically argue about this all day but you can clearly see that SOE games are in decline while other developers games are gaining subs... and as more developers come on the scene SOE will continue to lose subs, as the population off mmo subscribers increases, it's simple. the PC market is through with them.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense. Looking at the 0-120k chart shows that the SOE games outperfom all the ones listed there (by virtue of appearing on the next chart up).
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
*edited after indeed looking at the other charts*
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Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
I love StarWars and the games that were made for consoles and pc. I hated SWG.
Honestly, since this thread turned into a SOE bashing session again, I think that both SOE and Lucas are to blame for what happened to SWG. I like bioware's games immensely. I think that if they created a new star wars mmo it would probably rock hard.
Im just skeptical of Lucas Arts. They are the big boss man when it comes down to what will be in the game and what will get changed or destroyed. So the game might very well be totally freakin awesome. I think though it will be a huge cluster F#%K.
If it all goes to hell of course Bioware will get blamed for everything, and Lucas Arts will move onto its next victim. Make a game of star wars just make damn sure LA stays out of the mix.
Star wars + Bioware + LA + SoE no were? hell ya i would give it a shot!
Playing: Everthing
Played: DAoC,AC2,EvE,SWG,WAR,MXO,CoX,EQ2,L2,LOTRO,SB,UO,WoW.
I have played every MMO that has ever come out.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense.
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
ok let's look at it over 5 years.. in 2003 SOE's market share in mmo's was 19.5% in 2008 SOE's market share in mmo's is 3.7%. in 2003 they actually had close to 1 million subs over 4 games now they have almost 600k over 8 games, remember this is as the market grows exponentially, that = fail.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense.
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
ok let's look at it over 5 years.. in 2003 SOE's market share in mmo's was 19.5% in 2008 SOE's market share in mmo's is 3.7%. in 2003 they actually had close to 1 million subs over 4 games now they have almost 600k over 8 games, remember this is as the market grows exponentially, that = fail.
It's pretty difficult to argue with those numbers. I am certain, however, that the fanbois will still try.
Edited my post as your quite right as it stood it implied more than I intended (missed out the words 'most of'!!), but I still find it hard to understand your interpretation that those charts show SOE to be failing in any meaningful business sense.
I guess we are just going to have to 'agree to disagree' on this.
ok let's look at it over 5 years.. in 2003 SOE's market share in mmo's was 19.5% in 2008 SOE's market share in mmo's is 3.7%. in 2003 they actually had close to 1 million subs over 4 games now they have almost 600k over 8 games, remember this is as the market grows exponentially, that = fail.
It's pretty difficult to argue with those numbers. I am certain, however, that the fanbois will still try.
funny thing is they are making roughly the same money if everyones on station pass $25 x 600k is 15mil a month same as paying $15 a month for 1 game in 03' ....making sense? they can't keep it going forever though...
I would be willing to bet that the majority of their customers aren't on the station pass.
Sorry, but you are kidding yourself. The pre-CU vets have not driven SOE to make a pre-CU server or managed to make any dent in the player figures for any of the other SOE games - this is because non 'pre-CU Vets' (i.e. - the majority of gamers) don't actually give a rats ass about their ancient grievances and certainly aren't going to be put off playing a new SW MMO just because the relatively small clique of 'vets' are still spitting the dummy out about something that is years-old news.
How you can think otherwise (or believe in the massive self importanceof the pre-CU vets your posts suggest) or that a 'please this small group or you'll fail!!' argument is 'being realistic' is beyond me.
we have driven alot of people away from giving $OE money for swg.we have made a big dent in the other games.
not only that but look at how well a game like eve is doing. most of the swg vets went to eve and it is growing faster every day. i won't put it past eve hitting a million subs by the end of the year.
so trust me we are the players bioware wants to go after. not the warcraft kids or xbot kids but the real pc gamers.
Have you forgotten that gaming doyen EA owns Bioware now? yes they make real hardcore games dont they
When it comes right down to it..I wont play SWG cuz I cant play the game that I spent my money on (the game on the box was the one i wanted to play) so i guess it depends fully on Bioware and what they put forth...not sayin it has to be skillbased and/or sandbox (though these were part of what drew me to SWG in the first place) but give me wide rangeing options and the ability to change my mind as the whim takes me and yer golden (respecing in the same class dosent count)...Bio..if you are workin on a starwars mmo..make the best game you can and take pride in yer work..the rest will fall into place
Build a man a fire...he will be warm for a night...Light a man on fire...he will be warm for the rest of his life.
The fact that SOE has not given in and ammended their ethical mistake has hurt them.
Also, every new game that has come along has had to promise they will never do what SOE did.
As I said to the other guy, watch and learn.
That isn't fact, it's your opinion. I've yet to see any proof whatsoever that the pre-CU vets (of which, incidentally, I am one - I simply moved on to play other games and have never involved myself in the rather pointless ranting against SOE) have had any effect on anything other than the population figures of SWG itself (and that itself is arguable).
Watch and learn? For how long? It's been YEARS and what exactly have you achieved? And show me where AoC, PotBS or in fact *any* new MMO has explicitly promised 'not to do what SOE did'. And how can you argue (i.e. - present tangible proof to the fact) that EQ2 does not continue to enjoy success or that the vets have caused it any damage in the least?
You seem so blinded by your anger that it hardly seems worth debating the issue with you any more - lets face it, no matter what is said here you'll continue to believe that the 'pre-CU vets' are somehow guiding the MMO industry despite the fact the vast majority of MMO players probably haven't ever visited a games forum for anything other than tech help and have no idea what you guys are even arguing about.
Of course I am only sharing my opinion, an opinion that fits with all the facts -- SOE has not been doing all that well since the NGE, and has not had one success.
I'm not the least bit angry, in fact, I'm almost never angry, last time I got angry was 9/11. None of this ever made me angry -- not even close. That's a fact, not an opinion.
I never said pre-CU vets are "guiding" anything, merely said that the NGE, and how it affected everything, has had a ripple effect throughout the industry, and it has. I believe only wha the facts have shown. You are free to believe otherwise of course, and then to attempt to psychoanalyze me to to explain our difference of opinion. I won't, however, do the same to you, just disagree.
fishermage.blogspot.com
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
It may have failed for many reasons, but it still failed on SOE's watch. When SOE does produce a post-NGE success, then we'll know they have gotten out from under the shadow of the NGE. Until then, feel free to spin the facts as you please, and explain away another SOE failure.
fishermage.blogspot.com
*sigh* Vanguard wasn't a SOE game when it started to fail (in fact it is argued elsewhere that SOE are improving it).
As for 'people playing their buggy crap' and them 'never having a successful PC title' I can only assume you have never heard of EQ2? Or are you just discounting that one because it doesn't fit with your view?
It may have failed for many reasons, but it still failed on SOE's watch. When SOE does produce a post-NGE success, then we'll know they have gotten out from under the shadow of the NGE. Until then, feel free to spin the facts as you please, and explain away another SOE failure.
Also after SOE loaned Sigil a bunch of money they put a ton of pressure on Brad and company to release the game before it was ready. SOE didn't develop Vanguard but it certainly had a hand in it's disastrous launch.
Not trying to spin anything - have no particular interest in seeing SOE succeed or fail, and don't particularly care either way. Am not currently playing an SOE game but would do so again without a thought if I liked the game. Simply disagreed with some of the views posted .
But to follow your lead from an earlier reply, I'm happy just to say I disagree with you .
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Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
But to follow your lead from an earlier reply, I'm happy just to say I disagree with you .
Okay, fair ebough
fishermage.blogspot.com
Also after SOE loaned Sigil a bunch of money they put a ton of pressure on Brad and company to release the game before it was ready. SOE didn't develop Vanguard but it certainly had a hand in it's disastrous launch.
Enough is enough..Vanguard needed more or less another 2 years solid devolpment time to get it in a stable state..do you think,honesly Sigil could have done it? i played the beta early on and i know how bad it was,Sigil ate money and after 6 years of dev time it still wasnt ready MS saw the light and bailed on it SOE came in gave yet more money but wanted it out fast (a mistake but it was thier call) otherwise it was nothing more than vapourware.As it stands now over a year after launch its not perfect,far from it but its 100% better than the mess Sigil left it in,blame SOE for most things but in Vanguards case its a better game for thier involvement,the only shame is that the current dev team didnt make it from the off becuase simply given the world and the size of it it would have been a hell of a game (probably the closest thing to SWG size wise),but as i say SOE wanted to see some return on thier investment (as no doubt did Sigils other investors) but in no way were brad and merry band of idiots capable of bringing a game to market in stable state..SOE's dev team have taken the patient and brought it off the life support system sadly though all a bit to late IMO.
But for vanguards woes blame Brad and Sigil not SOE.