Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Lord of the Rings Online: NYCC Panel - DDO and LotRO
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
In the first of our New York Comic Con panel reports, News Manager Keith Cross recaps some of the things that were said at the Turbine panel with Craig Alexander and Kate Paiz as the two discussed both Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online.
At the New York Comic Con, Sunday was the big day for MMO fans, with a day full of panels, demos and discussions about the industry, its fans, and the games that keep us coming back for more. Two of those games were Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons: The shadows of Angmar and Dragons Online: Stormreach, both from Boston based developer Turbine, the largest privately held online game studio in North America. Craig Alexander (LotRO), Vice President of Product Development, and Senior Producer (DDO) Kate Paiz were on hand to give presentations on each of these products and answer questions from journalists and fans alike.
The talk started with Kate Paiz giving us an overview of DDO’s history since it launched two years ago to a lukewarm reception. There were a number of complaints from fans early on. There was no wilderness adventuring, the early game was a bit dull, many veteran D&D players weren’t fond of the Eberron campaign setting which was relatively new at the time, and there were no dragons. To many, running around Eberron as a Warforged and not slaying dragons in the wilderness just didn’t feel like D&D. The game received a lot of flak early on from nerds like me, because the promise of a persistent world with many different players all playing at the same time sounded like it would be the truest incarnation of D&D in an electronic game space that had yet to exist.
Read it all here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I couldn't get into LotRO's static feeling combat system. It seemed very lacking with a dumbdowned approach; can face away from the target and still hit with a weapon, like most MMO's.
DDO on the otherhand, very weak at launch but has an intuitively tactile combat system that emulates D&D in real time and one of the most dynamic character building systems availble in an online game. While I hated the game at launch and stepped away for a year it's now become something that's likely to be emulated by future game developers.
I'm surprised how narrow minded the majority of gamers are in terms of online games. DDO is a game all gamers could benefit from experiancing, in it's current form.
This was my favorite quote from the article:
"defeated monsters will be paying off with more rear items."
I'm not so sure I want to find out what that means.
Funny, I always get "must face target" if I try hitting while not facing.
I have to agree with the inteviewer, I THINK he was quietly referencing the fact that so many gamers feel that every released game has to have as much content in it at release as an established game has. LoTRO's approach has been great, yet they still had a lot of people at release complaining because it wasn't as big as WoW. Personally, I think the developers and staff have done a FANTASTIC job.
Funny, I always get "must face target" if I try hitting while not facing.
Yep, that's completely untrue. You cannot hit a target if you have your back to it. In fact, in every MMO I've played over the last 5-6 years, you couldn't do that either.
I'd love to return to DDO, but I've been away from it too long for one. For two, the community meta-games, so it ruins the experience when you're running through something for the first time. For three, where the hell are the prestige classes?
Right now, a person can pick up a Never Winter Nights 1 or 2 copy, have more character customization, prestige classes, more content and the ability to play with other people for free. I still think Turbine didn't do the IP justice. It should have atleast been better than any other DnD game out to date.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Also, like they said, MMO's are a game in progress. If you want prestige classes then hang in there. Maybe they're coming, who knows. When you see them create them, then you have the option to start playing again. That's part of the growth of the game as a whole.
===============================
I wish Turbine would revisit Asheron's Call again. I really miss AC2.
===============================
Screw AC2, I want to see a new AC1 with todays graphics.
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
I like LotRO but it just didn't grab me enough to subscribe. The combat did feel lacking to me compared to some other games. There was nothing specific I could point at and go "that's wrong" but it didn't quite work for me.
I really wanted to like DDO. It's too bad Turbine ignored alpha/beta testers and continuously made it less and less like tabletop D&D. As with another poster, I'd rather play NWN 1 or 2 (with how DDO turned out).
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
Also, like they said, MMO's are a game in progress. If you want prestige classes then hang in there. Maybe they're coming, who knows. When you see them create them, then you have the option to start playing again. That's part of the growth of the game as a whole.
Please try to look at this from my point of view. I accept that MMORPGs are a work in progress, but the core game should be there. I understand NWN isn't an MMO. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the differences between the two. The point I am making is that NWN is complete. Meaning it has all of the races and classes, including prestige classes, at the release of the game. Don't forget, NWN also has expansion packs. The difference is that NWN releases new content with the expansion packs, not races and classes that should have been there at release.
We are paying customers, whom pay a fee EVERY month. It's not that Turbine didn't know all of the races and classes available, because they did. It would be like my Direct TV company only giving me some of the channels and adding more channels every 10 weeks or so. That would be unacceptable to any reasonable person, because we are paying Direct TV a fee every month and we know for damn sure what channels are offered in other Cable/Satellite TV services.
Turbine COULD have released all races, classes, and prestige classes at release and still could have had plenty of room for improvement by releasing new content packs. Instead of defending a product, ask yourself which you would rather have. My vision of a DnD game at release or Turbine's vision? Then ask yourself what logical explanations could Turbine have for not having it in game at release? No one twisted their arm and made them release early last time I checked. I was there for Beta and for release.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Dumbed down? Compared to what? I love the combat system, my Guards reactive abilities make every fight interesting for me.... what game are you playing that makes this looked dumbed down? EVE is more complex, but that's apples and oranges.. no avatar based MMO I've tried has ever had a complex combat system. At least not IMO.
I too tried DDO when it was first released, could not stand it and quit. I have since come back just a few months ago, and what a difference! I even posted some time back DDO should be packaged into an NWN type game, but the game is so much better now, and a lot of fun to play, especially for someone with limited game time like myself (Married with Children). I find the Comments of NWN being a complete game funny!, yes it is complete,plays very well, and very enjoyable. But do you remember when it (NWN) first came out?? It was horrible, more bugs than any MMO I ever played at launch, it was so bad I uninstalled it and did not come back to it at least 2 to 3 years after it was released. So Games like NWN do have somewhat of a developement curve like an MMO. Even though it is not an MMO it is MMO like (with persistent worlds and such).
DDO was and IS a failure.
If it had been made by people with actual creative talent, it would have had millions of sustained subscibers.
But as the arcticle shows, the inept people in charge arent willing to admit to themselves how badly they failed.
Its why MMO after MMO that comes out is utter crap.These dev teams are so bad, and so in love with themselves they cant see or smell what they just desposited in a box and called a product.
To them in their little reality challenged minds,its all roses that "just need more time" to grow .If only the paying customer would give them that time and cash, all would be just dandy.
If WoW hadnt come along, these lackwits would still be crowing about their 50 to 300K subscriber bases as if they had actually succeeded .
Biggest change the MMO market needs, is a complete purging of personnel.Its a real shame someone with loads of cash and some intelligence hasnt come along yet and "restructured" the entire MMO industry.Firing off the dinosaurs of hype like Brad,Smed,Garriot,etc...
Sadly the majority of them are showing ,they are not likely to leave voluntarily,and go into fields they are better suited for.Like politics,used car sales,religion,snake oil,the U.N. ,weather forecasting,etc...
Also, like they said, MMO's are a game in progress. If you want prestige classes then hang in there. Maybe they're coming, who knows. When you see them create them, then you have the option to start playing again. That's part of the growth of the game as a whole.
Please try to look at this from my point of view. I accept that MMORPGs are a work in progress, but the core game should be there. I understand NWN isn't an MMO. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the differences between the two. The point I am making is that NWN is complete. Meaning it has all of the races and classes, including prestige classes, at the release of the game. Don't forget, NWN also has expansion packs. The difference is that NWN releases new content with the expansion packs, not races and classes that should have been there at release.
We are paying customers, whom pay a fee EVERY month. It's not that Turbine didn't know all of the races and classes available, because they did. It would be like my Direct TV company only giving me some of the channels and adding more channels every 10 weeks or so. That would be unacceptable to any reasonable person, because we are paying Direct TV a fee every month and we know for damn sure what channels are offered in other Cable/Satellite TV services.
Turbine COULD have released all races, classes, and prestige classes at release and still could have had plenty of room for improvement by releasing new content packs. Instead of defending a product, ask yourself which you would rather have. My vision of a DnD game at release or Turbine's vision? Then ask yourself what logical explanations could Turbine have for not having it in game at release? No one twisted their arm and made them release early last time I checked. I was there for Beta and for release.
You are aware that Turbine worked along with the D&D folks themselves, right? It's not like you can peg all the blame on Turbine.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All Rights Reversed
When I feel like you, I do breathing exercises. It tends to calm me down a whole lot and put a new view on things. Anger releases hormones in your body that are very detrimental in the long run. Take care of your health.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All Rights Reversed
the content of both games might be improving but I still cannot stand the way their characters look - even on the highest setting with direct x 10 lotro characters just look dull, drab and muted. No I dont think they should have wow brightness but comparing world to characters (esp with lotro) its a huge difference in details.
Cant play a game that has ugly characters no matter how "improved" the world is.
I think the avatars need a lot more detail and "life-like" upgrades. I also don't like how unnatural the avatars stand (the Elves) in both games.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
while i agree with your opinion, i have to say that NWN didnt have prestige classes at launch. they were added with the expansions (a few with SoU, and more with HoU).
still, i prefer to play NWN than DDO. yes, DDO is massive, but its almost all instanced, and that spoils the sense of massiveness for me. i prefer 64 players on a NWN module than 200k on DDO but everyone on its own dungeon.
Another problem with prestige classes is sheer volume - how many are there now? Not all of them are balanced, nor are some of them particularly useful at the current level cap of DDO.
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
Balancing just involves modifying values for the prestige classes. Besides, I've always been of the opinion that MMORPGs don't need balancing for anything but PvP. PvE encounters should be challenging for all and that only takes tweaking numbers on the encounter.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Guess we all have different tastes, I was really disappointed with NWN, I felt the combat was clunky (almost felt like I was rolling dice in a painfully slow PnP way), graphics were far too tiled, and the main story was just plain thrown together with no imagination at all.
I happen to like DDO because the quests actually have had some thought put in to them, just not mass produced quantity over quality, yes it reduces content, but at least it is decent content. I like the fact I have to concentrate to stay alive, I have to control my character, not just sit there pressing the odd button at the right time, against foes that stand still. I like the fact I can jump and grab a ledge and pull myself up, dodge behind a rock and see arrows bounce off it.
I wouldn't say other MMOS are dumbed down, they are just more like playing trumps, than any real action. Oh and for the person that asked, in CoH you don't have to face your enemy, it will turn you around itself, which is pretty dumbed down.
We all need different things, I for one can't play any MMO where projectiles home in on you for no particular reason (often even through obstacles), or your feet are glued to the ground, or you can't hit something next to you unless you have it targetted, or every fight is just a sequence of the same old key presses, akin to chopping wood. To be honest I can't understand how anyone can, but they do, so what do I know.
I do like the combat in DDO as I do in NWN. I wasn't really referring to the graphics in NWN, because that is just a visual problem that doesn't say anything about the actual mechanics of a game. Graphics are important, don't get me wrong, but I am discussing gameplay and features, not graphics.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
DDO plays like a series of D&D modules, some of them follow the main storyline, some are a small series in their own right and some are just standalone. It doesn't have the story driven focus of a single player game, but the plots are starting to draw together, although I would like to see more of the riddles and plot building that happened before Gianthold, backed up with more in game events.
The main storyline in NWN had no imagination at all, it was the sort of stuff you'd expect from a DM writing their first campaign, the first expansion was worse, the second expansion was better, it at least seemed to have a bit of a point. The puzzles were painfully simple, the twists (what little there was of them) were so obvious you need to be asleep not to see them coming. Items in NWN were very restricted and very unvaried. The fact it was based around a single character plus henchmen really restricted what they could do to the point there was really no strategy in any of the combat. The graphics were really very poor, I put that down to the limitations of a mass appeal design tool. Don't get me started on the idiocy of letting you just rest outside rooms full of monsters without at least being disturbed.
I felt it was a very mediocre game, and not a patch on something like BG. I am sure some people used the design tool to make better content, but that is hardly NWN. I wanted to like NWN because of the good things I heard, it just was unfortunately all hype, backed up by a lot of people getting off on their own stuff.
Happy to agree to disagree on it though, just felt someone needed to stick a pin in all this NWN was great stuff.
You gotta love when devs and/or publishers defend their failing and/or failed games by blaming the PLAYERS for "not getting it."
I have tried and retried DDO, and it just isn't fun to me. There are bits of it that are fun-ish, parts that would be a great addition to a game with better overall creative direction, but as a whole, DDO just isn't entertaining to most people.
If "coming back" to DDO were as mind-blowing as some people say, people would be coming back and staying. We're not that stubborn. If something really is good, we will give it a fair chance. DDO just isn't that good.
On the other hand, I do see the appeal in LotRO. It's not awful -- I might even still be playing if I didn't like other games better. It's a decent attempt and fully deserves its modest degree of success.