But... if noone plays the ones that are out there, whatever quality they are, why would anyone make any more? The truth is investors don't look at forum boards, they look at figures right?
Well see that's the thing...
You realize that until WoW launched EQ1 was still the number 1 North American MMO.
SWG was number 2..
Up to this point people wanted to "clone" EQ1 as it was the success. SWG could have perhaps inspired some development houses to go the other way.
Then WoW launches... and to compound that SWG is changed (don't want to debate that mess its been done enough).
The point being that now WoW which is an "evolutionary clone" of EQ1 type game play is now number 1 in investors eyes.. so that's what they want.
There isn't any top MMO (from investment standpoint) that is different.. so obviously there would be no inspriation to make a different game. Even UO is more like EQ (imho) than the UO I knew in 1997. Sure its still skill based but the entire core mechanics have been changed in such a dramatic and negatvie (opinion) way..
I personally don't like levels, I don't like class restrictions and I don't like uber loot. I also believe there should be strong player market/crafting with the actual ability to sell things.
I'm not so much into the term "sand box" but.. I am into the idea that its pretty obvious to see the core mechanic flaws in every "top" MMO out there.
The real question is what happens when we reach critical mass on the boredom level because investors wanted to keep making the same game... we have the ".com" collapse MMO style?
I suppose you could say I look at it from a business standpoint more than a player standpoint. I also know that its getting very hard for me personally to justify playing any of these games and nothing "new" looks worth buying (not going to flame/slam.. just stating a point of view)
and /endramble sorry for the wall of text.. it was one of those days today.
*edited* changed a line to hopefully avoid distraction based on something that really isn't what I'm trying to talk about.
Originally posted by Pyrostasis Mainly due to the fact alot of the sand box games out atm dont have enough good hooks to keep people going. UO at release was a great sandbox game, that over time lost most of what we pvp sandbox folks enjoyed. EvE is great... but a lot of folks have a hard time getting their heads around the idea of not being able to speed up training. Sure its nice to train offline... but many of us have a hard time planning our toon own 12 months down the road, or care to wait that long to do what we wish. EvE while great... seems to be more of a waiting game. You plan in advance your area of expertise, and then know the day/minute/second that you can have it... and until then your more or less waiting around. What you do has no affect over that goal (minus implants of course). Where as a game like UO you can speed up training to as much as your willing to play. Both systems have their perks... but with UO's system, you actually feel like your making progress and working towards a goal, where as with eve (especially for new characters) it feels like your just killing time while you wait for a skill to finish.
I must confess I would prefer UO old skool style to grind my skills to EVE's passive, anti-achiever waiting system. But alas, EVE has current graphics so I dont see any other valid alternatives (well other then other genres like GTA 4)
...seem to actually play a sandbox game? I'm not talking about a standard MMO with sandbox elements like EvE here, or even a single player sandbox influenced game like GTA4, but an actual sandbox game? There seems to be a lot of call on these boards for this style of gaming, yet a game like A Tale in the Desert is really struggling. Why is that? Is it just a case of the noisy minority, much like the hardcore FFA open world PvPers? I suspect that most of the people asking for a sandbox game couldnt really handle a real one... Thoughts?
Spot on !!
It's with most complaint on website's like this, most complainers simply do not know what they actualy want.
The reason ATITD doesn't have a huge population is due to the abscense of combat mainly. By focusing on harvesting/crafting they only cater to an even smaller target audience.
Just because one likes or craves for a sandbox doesn't mean they'll invest money in just about any of them. There's available gameplay, features/'content' and personal taste to consider as well.
Main reason I'm not playing anything right now is because none of the currently available sandbox games apeal to me. Either not enough depth to the crafting system or economy, no meaningfull combat or realm politics, lack of a story that speaks to me, ...
Are you willing to spend a monthly payment on a product you don't fully endorse for the sake of getting 'your right'?
A Tale in the Desert does not offer combat as previously mentioned. Most MMOG players want combat either PVE or PVP or both. Though I do enjoy crafting immensely, I still desire combat.
I played EVE Online when it first released and quit because of how buggy the game was and how slowly CCP responded with fixes. Those issues have been resolved but I won't play EVE now because it has a skill learning system tied to real world time which it should not. A virtual world should not have such obvious ties to the real world because it destroys immersion and it dismisses the basic tenet that investing more time and effort enables me to advance faster and achieve more than others as long as I play smart.
The main problem with EVE though is that it is a developer sponsored RMT game now, as CCP allows players to buy time cards and trade them ingame for ingame currency. I refuse to play games that allow or sponsor any form of RMT or microtransaction which defeats the basic principle of a MMOG, that being a virtual world where real world money does not exist or have any influence.
The market lacks quality sandbox MMOGs and it's the fault of developers chasing the WoW formula. No one is going to repeat WoW's success and developers need to find their own small, yet profitable niche.
...seem to actually play a sandbox game? I'm not talking about a standard MMO with sandbox elements like EvE here, or even a single player sandbox influenced game like GTA4, but an actual sandbox game?
There seems to be a lot of call on these boards for this style of gaming, yet a game like A Tale in the Desert is really struggling.
Why is that?
Is it just a case of the noisy minority, much like the hardcore FFA open world PvPers?
I suspect that most of the people asking for a sandbox game couldnt really handle a real one...
Thoughts?
I really think you just trying to pick a fight because you excluded EVE Online in which everyone knows is a straight-up sandbox.
Most any definition of a sandbox you could think of EVE Online meets that criteria
The only pure "sandbox" is Second Life which is *very different*. There is not one pure "sandbox" mmorpg out there
ATITD is a CAREBEAR MMORPG it doesnt count period. I cant PVP anyone in that thing... I'm not trying to trash it but when I pay a monthly sub I better be able to PK someone.... Why should I care if its struggling it has no PVP??? If anything I want for publishers to not clone that game
BTW, I play eve online and most any other sandbox mmorpg I can find that has acceptable graphics. Problem is EVE Online is pretty much only one with current graphics thats released.... SO most of us play it. And most any publisher with a brain knows EVE is a sandbox...
I wasnt aware we were having a fight... I thought we were just talking...
To respond to you though, I excluded EvE as a true sandbox, simply because it isnt. LIke I say, the true sandbox version of EvE would have you starting on an asteroid in empty space, with just the resources present and your character's skills to build the content yourselves. This isnt saying that EvE is a bad game, it obviosuly isnt, it just isnt a pure sandbox game. It has done a very good job of blending a traditional MMORPG with sandbox elements though for sure.
Of course ATTD2, which I don't play myself btw and have no agenda in promoting, it's just a good example for this conversation, 'counts' though... How can it not? Where is it written you have to have PvP to be a sandbox game or a MMORPG? It may not count to you personally, but surely you can be open minded and objective enough to see why it is one of the only true true sandbox games out there.
Like almost everyone else, I think you are calling for a semi-sandbox game. Nothing wrong with that of course, but lets clarify what it is you are actually wanting.
Again, if people won't play the pure sandbox games that are out there now, why would a dev or his VC investors pour $50,000,000 into developing the AAA title you call for? I guess the point I was making with the EQ1 reference earlier was that if I wanted to support a game style that wasnt being catered for, I wouldnt be on the boards talking about it, I would be putting my money where my mouth was and actually playing the ones that existed right now to show everyone there was actually a demand for this type of gaming beyond a few noisy posters scattered across the interweb.
saying all this, and I know it isnt a MMORPG, I must say that Spore is looking amazing and may open up new inroads into true sandbox gaming that we will never see in this genre. I am looking forward to, if it is the success it looks like it will be, the influence it will have on future true sandbox MMOPRPGs.
People are playing the big titles like they are a sandbox game and doing their best to get what they can out of it.
For example, I firmly believe that Eve's populationis where it is because it "wins" by default - there are no other space mmos.
As someone who could be classified as a "sandboxer" all I'm asking for is a world that lets you figure stuff out instead of a world that drags you by the nose to the next batch of 20 bats to kill.
Eve has some cool stuff and pve content that is about as exciting to me as organzing my sock drawer. Each game out there right now has some of hte right stuff but , I think , is trying to cater to non sandboxers first and foremost.
well, I'm too lazy to see if this game was mentioned but http://www.mortalonline.com/ seems to have sandbox potential. But I can't help but wonder why a game like that wouldn't have much buzz around it. I'd say about a 50/50 chance of vapor-ware. sandbox games don't last..
Those issues have been resolved but I won't play EVE now because it has a skill learning system tied to real world time which it should not. A virtual world should not have such obvious ties to the real world because it destroys immersion and it dismisses the basic tenet that investing more time and effort enables me to advance faster and achieve more than others as long as I play smart.
The main problem with EVE though is that it is a developer sponsored RMT game now, as CCP allows players to buy time cards and trade them ingame for ingame currency. I refuse to play games that allow or sponsor any form of RMT or microtransaction which defeats the basic principle of a MMOG, that being a virtual world where real world money does not exist or have any influence.
The market lacks quality sandbox MMOGs and it's the fault of developers chasing the WoW formula. No one is going to repeat WoW's success and developers need to find their own small, yet profitable niche.
What you view as flaws, I view as EVE's strengths. For too long MMO's have catered to people who have more free time than me, therefore they succeed more than me. (not because they are 'better' than me) I for one am grateful to see an MMO not reward those who play more and provides a means for the rest of us to be competitive in terms of leveling the training and providing for alternate means of obtaining ISK.
As to the original topic, I agree, their hasn't been many sandbox type games of quality in recent years, and I doubt I'd want a total sand-box as described by the OP, where there was no content provided by the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
played wurmonline and loved it for two years, played EvE for a month and was to detached from stuff, playing second life since there's some uber crafting here and it's pure sandbox.
edit: well kinda pure sandbox you can make anything you want if you have the abilities(which I do, programming is fun and their scripting engine is insanely simple to even a newbie programmer). One day I could work on a wave rezzer(for surfing), next an enchanted sword(for combat), next day some teaching tools, and the next day help someone with a build(even though I don't play much I do have a fancy script library of custom stuff I've tossed together).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Originally posted by vesavius ...seem to actually play a sandbox game? I'm not talking about a standard MMO with sandbox elements like EvE here, or even a single player sandbox influenced game like GTA4, but an actual sandbox game? There seems to be a lot of call on these boards for this style of gaming, yet a game like A Tale in the Desert is really struggling. Why is that? Is it just a case of the noisy minority, much like the hardcore FFA open world PvPers? I suspect that most of the people asking for a sandbox game couldnt really handle a real one... Thoughts?
I really think you just trying to pick a fight because you excluded EVE Online in which everyone knows is a straight-up sandbox. Most any definition of a sandbox you could think of EVE Online meets that criteria The only pure "sandbox" is Second Life which is *very different*. There is not one pure "sandbox" mmorpg out there ATITD is a CAREBEAR MMORPG it doesnt count period. I cant PVP anyone in that thing... I'm not trying to trash it but when I pay a monthly sub I better be able to PK someone.... Why should I care if its struggling it has no PVP??? If anything I want for publishers to not clone that game BTW, I play eve online and most any other sandbox mmorpg I can find that has acceptable graphics. Problem is EVE Online is pretty much only one with current graphics thats released.... SO most of us play it. And most any publisher with a brain knows EVE is a sandbox...
I wasnt aware we were having a fight... I thought we were just talking... To respond to you though, I excluded EvE as a true sandbox, simply because it isnt. LIke I say, the true sandbox version of EvE would have you starting on an asteroid in empty space, with just the resources present and your character's skills to build the content yourselves. This isnt saying that EvE is a bad game, it obviosuly isnt, it just isnt a pure sandbox game. It has done a very good job of blending a traditional MMORPG with sandbox elements though for sure. Of course ATTD2, which I don't play myself btw and have no agenda in promoting, it's just a good example for this conversation, 'counts' though... How can it not? Where is it written you have to have PvP to be a sandbox game or a MMORPG? It may not count to you personally, but surely you can be open minded and objective enough to see why it is one of the only true true sandbox games out there. Like almost everyone else, I think you are calling for a semi-sandbox game. Nothing wrong with that of course, but lets clarify what it is you are actually wanting. Again, if people won't play the pure sandbox games that are out there now, why would a dev or his VC investors pour $50,000,000 into developing the AAA title you call for? I guess the point I was making with the EQ1 reference earlier was that if I wanted to support a game style that wasnt being catered for, I wouldnt be on the boards talking about it, I would be putting my money where my mouth was and actually playing the ones that existed right now to show everyone there was actually a demand for this type of gaming beyond a few noisy posters scattered across the interweb. saying all this, and I know it isnt a MMORPG, I must say that Spore is looking amazing and may open up new inroads into true sandbox gaming that we will never see in this genre. I am looking forward to, if it is the success it looks like it will be, the influence it will have on future true sandbox MMOPRPGs.
yeah but to be frank like we'vew all told you no one wants to play a crappy ATITD game so that's that. We dont want a crappy game cloned- we want something good developed
Second Life is a pure sandbox and its revenues are HUGE. Publishers have taken notice.
Thus there is no point to this thread but its a good read nevertheless :P
edit- Laslty, just because EVE online has some linear content for players that like that they dont force us to do it. Lookup definition of Sandbox at wikipedia or any source you value. EVE Online and others meet that definition
Just because they have optional linear content for fans doesnt make them less of a sandbox. Second Life is a pure sandbox but players have created mini-RPGs world within. To say its not a sandbox is ridiculous....
You can have linear content in a sandbox.
Seriously just because you stood up and declared a true sandbox is a boring game in the desert doesnt mean the rest of us have to agree with you. Even in second life you can PK in the mini-worlds. ATITD lacks this freedom so its questionable if its a sandbox. If it is- its a boring one not worth my money. EVE Online is a true sandbox where players can build anything and do anything conceivable in that game world. ATITD lacks basic freedoms essential to a good sandbox worth most people's money....
You are mistaken by SWG elite players that think that the world should revolve around them and the other folks that simply like sandbox elements. I myself love EVE and don’t see the need to ask for more then what this game has to offer. Once in a while, I’ll play Mabinogi and that’s also a fairly simple and fun linear/sandbox game.
Now why did I say SWG players? Because it’s where the big juicy grief and sorrow all started when they got hit on the head by SOE. So when they saw that no other games were going to be like that, they decided to change the term of “Give me back my Star wars!” to “Give me back my sandbox”
Sadly, they want the exact same thing as SWG so tales from a desert won’t offer them that.
I might be wrong and I really hope I am but from my point of view, that’s what I get when reading the forums and doing some background checks. Don’t get me wrong, I love the old SWG as well so I’m pretty much in the same boat J
...seem to actually play a sandbox game? I'm not talking about a standard MMO with sandbox elements like EvE here, or even a single player sandbox influenced game like GTA4, but an actual sandbox game?
There seems to be a lot of call on these boards for this style of gaming, yet a game like A Tale in the Desert is really struggling.
Why is that?
Is it just a case of the noisy minority, much like the hardcore FFA open world PvPers?
I suspect that most of the people asking for a sandbox game couldnt really handle a real one...
Thoughts?
I really think you just trying to pick a fight because you excluded EVE Online in which everyone knows is a straight-up sandbox.
Most any definition of a sandbox you could think of EVE Online meets that criteria
The only pure "sandbox" is Second Life which is *very different*. There is not one pure "sandbox" mmorpg out there
ATITD is a CAREBEAR MMORPG it doesnt count period. I cant PVP anyone in that thing... I'm not trying to trash it but when I pay a monthly sub I better be able to PK someone.... Why should I care if its struggling it has no PVP??? If anything I want for publishers to not clone that game
BTW, I play eve online and most any other sandbox mmorpg I can find that has acceptable graphics. Problem is EVE Online is pretty much only one with current graphics thats released.... SO most of us play it. And most any publisher with a brain knows EVE is a sandbox...
I wasnt aware we were having a fight... I thought we were just talking...
To respond to you though, I excluded EvE as a true sandbox, simply because it isnt. LIke I say, the true sandbox version of EvE would have you starting on an asteroid in empty space, with just the resources present and your character's skills to build the content yourselves. This isnt saying that EvE is a bad game, it obviosuly isnt, it just isnt a pure sandbox game. It has done a very good job of blending a traditional MMORPG with sandbox elements though for sure.
Of course ATTD2, which I don't play myself btw and have no agenda in promoting, it's just a good example for this conversation, 'counts' though... How can it not? Where is it written you have to have PvP to be a sandbox game or a MMORPG? It may not count to you personally, but surely you can be open minded and objective enough to see why it is one of the only true true sandbox games out there.
Like almost everyone else, I think you are calling for a semi-sandbox game. Nothing wrong with that of course, but lets clarify what it is you are actually wanting.
Again, if people won't play the pure sandbox games that are out there now, why would a dev or his VC investors pour $50,000,000 into developing the AAA title you call for? I guess the point I was making with the EQ1 reference earlier was that if I wanted to support a game style that wasnt being catered for, I wouldnt be on the boards talking about it, I would be putting my money where my mouth was and actually playing the ones that existed right now to show everyone there was actually a demand for this type of gaming beyond a few noisy posters scattered across the interweb.
saying all this, and I know it isnt a MMORPG, I must say that Spore is looking amazing and may open up new inroads into true sandbox gaming that we will never see in this genre. I am looking forward to, if it is the success it looks like it will be, the influence it will have on future true sandbox MMOPRPGs.
yeah but to be frank like we'vew all told you no one wants to play a crappy ATITD game so that's that. We dont want a crappy game cloned- we want something good developed
I have never once said that ATiTD2 is the apex of true sandbox gaming, I have openly just used it as a discussion point. No need to start getting hostile.
Lets be honest, despite it's 'deciated' and vocal fanbase, even EvE dosent have the numbers to push investment does it? If it did we would have more semi-sandbox MMORPGs flooding the market, and not the linear casual-lite efforts we are seeing.
My point is that you will never get anything 'good' developed unless there is a shown market for what already exists.
Second Life is a pure sandbox and its revenues are HUGE. Publishers have taken notice.
So where are the other Second Life type games in development if publishers have taken notice? Why are it's sub numbers plummeting?
More proof there isnt a sustainable market for a true sandbox MMORPG in todays gaming world?
Seriously just because you stood up and declared a true sandbox is a boring game in the desert doesnt mean the rest of us have to agree with you.
I am not asking to be agreed with, I am just chatting and seeing what people think...
Even in second life you can PK in the mini-worlds. ATITD lacks this freedom so its questionable if its a sandbox. If it is- its a boring one not worth my money. EVE Online is a true sandbox where players can build anything and do anything conceivable in that game world.
Because quality trumps sandbox. A tale of the desert I have heard, if I'm thinkin gof the right one, has a good crafting system but a terrible hunting system. UO is arguably only fantacy sandbox game that has any quality to it. Eve meh not my cup of tea not enough action.
I'd like to see something inbetween a full sandbox no story at all and the lead by the nose story that we currently have.
The only sandbox game worth playing was UO from 97-99.
Once they removed murdering, stealing, and practically anything else that was sandboxy it sucked. Everything trying to be like that since then has failed and hasn't been a true sandbox.
To answer your question, present me a real sandbox game and I'll play it.
NPC's are easy to predict, but a player hiding behind a tree who's been watching you travel down the dirt road anxiously waiting to ambush and rob you and possibly play hide the weasle with your skull, now THAT'S excitement.
...seem to actually play a sandbox game? I'm not talking about a standard MMO with sandbox elements like EvE here, or even a single player sandbox influenced game like GTA4, but an actual sandbox game? There seems to be a lot of call on these boards for this style of gaming, yet a game like A Tale in the Desert is really struggling. Why is that? Is it just a case of the noisy minority, much like the hardcore FFA open world PvPers? I suspect that most of the people asking for a sandbox game couldnt really handle a real one... Thoughts?
There is no "new", "quality", "fantasy", "PVE", "sandbox" MMORPG right now.
A Tale in the Desert? UO? EQ?
C'mon.
While I agree the FFA PVPers are noisy and smaller in numbers than they think, I feel the linear-MMORPG design crowd are just as lost, if much more numerous. Why play a linear game when you can watch a movie and save yourself Karpal Tunnel Syndrome? Same linear path, same outcome.
Unfortunately the only ones that seam interested in even thinking about designing a sandbox are the OMFG FFA PVP FULL LOOT OR YOUR A PANSY CAREBEAR crowd. Been there done that a couple years in UO. No desire to go backwards.
I think it comes down to the venture capitalists and the developer doing the sell job. Do sandbox games fail because no one wants a sandbox game or were those previous implementations just done poorly? I think a developer interested in doing a sandbox game has to convince the money guys it can work and be profitable -- it has nothing to do with patronizing that sub-genre of mmos but that's just my opinion.
in the past year I've seen secondlife's peak hour usage go from 30-40 thousand online to that much at any time during the day.
you can't just say a random number and have it be true.
_____________________________
as for why they're bad useage ratings I have no clue it's actually quite good for any game anyone who thinks otherwise is likely AAA type person that demands 80 million dollar budgets so they can get the same thing over and over again.
as for why they're so much lower than what you would expect for a sandbox game of it's scope just look at their own quality metrics. seriously 30 something percent of all client exits are from the client or a server crashing. So if developers aren't looking at making an already profitable market(you have everything from the normal subscription options, server/land rental, building costs, scimming off to top of cashouts-----) they can look at the fact that the competition lead isn't all that great(it's downright horrible, and even the community ends up cursing lindenlabs at least 35 times more than they have to say anything else about it(typically neutral look at this type stuff, instead of good)).
You can narrow down the sucess to a handful of things; parametric building, lots of texture options, land ownership, ownership in some form, a powerful but simplified scripting language(around the learning curve of BASIC), and hell of a lot of press even negative press. Basically what makes second life is the ability to build the world extremely casually and with minmal knowledge while you pay the developers and content makers* as you go along.
*I've only ever put 4 dollars in, and two months worth of subscription stuff for a few bonuses. I've withdrawed enough cash to buy a nice JAVA programming book for a present to myself(about twice as much as I've spent ever with the $20 for two months and the first 4), and make enough to never have to put any more real money in. If I wasn't so lazy I'd be making quite a bit more, but then it wouldn't be a game anymore.
----- It works like this I sell my linden cash back to linden labs, and they sell it to someone who is buying(scimming 5% profit off both ways) and charging me a transfer fee. This person then buys something from a creator and eventually someone will end up cashing out on the money once again with linden labs scimming a percent of profit off the transfer. Seriously it's a similar effect to banking in the fact that you're printing money(economic term not literal here) all in all a hell of a lot of money for a few database transactions akin to the process of you camping a mob spawn for a couple of minutes(total resource usage including the creation of the system).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Originally posted by vesavius ...seem to actually play a sandbox game? I'm not talking about a standard MMO with sandbox elements like EvE here, or even a single player sandbox influenced game like GTA4, but an actual sandbox game? There seems to be a lot of call on these boards for this style of gaming, yet a game like A Tale in the Desert is really struggling. Why is that? Is it just a case of the noisy minority, much like the hardcore FFA open world PvPers? I suspect that most of the people asking for a sandbox game couldnt really handle a real one... Thoughts?
I really think you just trying to pick a fight because you excluded EVE Online in which everyone knows is a straight-up sandbox. Most any definition of a sandbox you could think of EVE Online meets that criteria The only pure "sandbox" is Second Life which is *very different*. There is not one pure "sandbox" mmorpg out there ATITD is a CAREBEAR MMORPG it doesnt count period. I cant PVP anyone in that thing... I'm not trying to trash it but when I pay a monthly sub I better be able to PK someone.... Why should I care if its struggling it has no PVP??? If anything I want for publishers to not clone that game BTW, I play eve online and most any other sandbox mmorpg I can find that has acceptable graphics. Problem is EVE Online is pretty much only one with current graphics thats released.... SO most of us play it. And most any publisher with a brain knows EVE is a sandbox...
I wasnt aware we were having a fight... I thought we were just talking... To respond to you though, I excluded EvE as a true sandbox, simply because it isnt. LIke I say, the true sandbox version of EvE would have you starting on an asteroid in empty space, with just the resources present and your character's skills to build the content yourselves. This isnt saying that EvE is a bad game, it obviosuly isnt, it just isnt a pure sandbox game. It has done a very good job of blending a traditional MMORPG with sandbox elements though for sure. Of course ATTD2, which I don't play myself btw and have no agenda in promoting, it's just a good example for this conversation, 'counts' though... How can it not? Where is it written you have to have PvP to be a sandbox game or a MMORPG? It may not count to you personally, but surely you can be open minded and objective enough to see why it is one of the only true true sandbox games out there. Like almost everyone else, I think you are calling for a semi-sandbox game. Nothing wrong with that of course, but lets clarify what it is you are actually wanting. Again, if people won't play the pure sandbox games that are out there now, why would a dev or his VC investors pour $50,000,000 into developing the AAA title you call for? I guess the point I was making with the EQ1 reference earlier was that if I wanted to support a game style that wasnt being catered for, I wouldnt be on the boards talking about it, I would be putting my money where my mouth was and actually playing the ones that existed right now to show everyone there was actually a demand for this type of gaming beyond a few noisy posters scattered across the interweb. saying all this, and I know it isnt a MMORPG, I must say that Spore is looking amazing and may open up new inroads into true sandbox gaming that we will never see in this genre. I am looking forward to, if it is the success it looks like it will be, the influence it will have on future true sandbox MMOPRPGs.
yeah but to be frank like we'vew all told you no one wants to play a crappy ATITD game so that's that. We dont want a crappy game cloned- we want something good developed I have never once said that ATiTD2 is the apex of true sandbox gaming, I have openly just used it as a discussion point. No need to start getting hostile. Lets be honest, despite it's 'deciated' and vocal fanbase, even EvE dosent have the numbers to push investment does it? If it did we would have more semi-sandbox MMORPGs flooding the market, and not the linear casual-lite efforts we are seeing. My point is that you will never get anything 'good' developed unless there is a shown market for what already exists.
Second Life is a pure sandbox and its revenues are HUGE. Publishers have taken notice. So where are the other Second Life type games in development if publishers have taken notice? Why are it's sub numbers plummeting? More proof there isnt a sustainable market for a true sandbox MMORPG in todays gaming world? Seriously just because you stood up and declared a true sandbox is a boring game in the desert doesnt mean the rest of us have to agree with you. I am not asking to be agreed with, I am just chatting and seeing what people think... Even in second life you can PK in the mini-worlds. ATITD lacks this freedom so its questionable if its a sandbox. If it is- its a boring one not worth my money. EVE Online is a true sandbox where players can build anything and do anything conceivable in that game world. 'Anything concievable' in that game world?
Can you elaborate plz?
In EVE Online players can: 1) Build any Item from a t1 frigate to a Deathstar (Titan) 2) Build any object you see NPCs have. so we can build space stations, jumpbridges, POSes, refineries, labs, anything.... 3) The quests (agent missions and story) is 100% optional. I do them sometimes for entertainment buts its 100% optional 4) Players can PK anyone but in Empire space you get in trouble with local law 5) Even a newbie can explore any area of the game 6) Players can be anything they want no restrictions. You can be a pure crafter (like my alt) or everything that interests you on one character (like my main a jack of all trades)
And yes Second Life has inspired a few other titles into development as has been posted on various news sites. edit- off top of my head checkout Raph Koster site for his new project and if you search the net you can find some in closed testing. I'm not going to post a link however since I'm in closed testing for one and they'd fry me for posting the link on this site.... I can only give a clue that Raph koster regularly lists sandbox titles he finds
i dont know how anyone can be inspired by second life...most of it looks like crap since everything except the basics is player made, there's no continuity between the areas, there's alot of porn freaks, Goons, and everything else skulking around. Its just a bunch of player made areas jammed together full of porn or people trying to make RL money off you. Its a Virtual World that hides behind the F2P tag despite RL money being needed to buy property / items / sexual organs/ etc in the world. Its not a game...its a set of virtual chat rooms...full of all the weird obsessive folks.
Atleast UO was a game...you were able to take on whatever role you wanted..even if it meant you played a dead carcass most of the time. But you were still apart of the UO world..everything 'fit' together (until they trammelized it).
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
i dont know how anyone can be inspired by second life...most of it looks like crap since everything except the basics is player made, there's no continuity between the areas, there's alot of porn freaks, Goons, and everything else skulking around. Its just a bunch of player made areas jammed together full of porn or people trying to make RL money off you. Its a Virtual World that hides behind the F2P tag despite RL money being needed to buy property / items / sexual organs/ etc in the world. Its not a game...its a set of virtual chat rooms...full of all the weird obsessive folks. Atleast UO was a game...you were able to take on whatever role you wanted..even if it meant you played a dead carcass most of the time. But you were still apart of the UO world..everything 'fit' together (until they trammelized it).
Yeah, your right! What a bunch of whack jobs!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to pretend I am a female halfling and fight a pretend dragon...
Comments
ROFL, awesome quote.
Well see that's the thing...
You realize that until WoW launched EQ1 was still the number 1 North American MMO.
SWG was number 2..
Up to this point people wanted to "clone" EQ1 as it was the success. SWG could have perhaps inspired some development houses to go the other way.
Then WoW launches... and to compound that SWG is changed (don't want to debate that mess its been done enough).
The point being that now WoW which is an "evolutionary clone" of EQ1 type game play is now number 1 in investors eyes.. so that's what they want.
There isn't any top MMO (from investment standpoint) that is different.. so obviously there would be no inspriation to make a different game. Even UO is more like EQ (imho) than the UO I knew in 1997. Sure its still skill based but the entire core mechanics have been changed in such a dramatic and negatvie (opinion) way..
I personally don't like levels, I don't like class restrictions and I don't like uber loot. I also believe there should be strong player market/crafting with the actual ability to sell things.
I'm not so much into the term "sand box" but.. I am into the idea that its pretty obvious to see the core mechanic flaws in every "top" MMO out there.
The real question is what happens when we reach critical mass on the boredom level because investors wanted to keep making the same game... we have the ".com" collapse MMO style?
I suppose you could say I look at it from a business standpoint more than a player standpoint. I also know that its getting very hard for me personally to justify playing any of these games and nothing "new" looks worth buying (not going to flame/slam.. just stating a point of view)
and /endramble sorry for the wall of text.. it was one of those days today.
*edited* changed a line to hopefully avoid distraction based on something that really isn't what I'm trying to talk about.
I must confess I would prefer UO old skool style to grind my skills to EVE's passive, anti-achiever waiting system. But alas, EVE has current graphics so I dont see any other valid alternatives (well other then other genres like GTA 4)
It's with most complaint on website's like this, most complainers simply do not know what they actualy want.
The reason ATITD doesn't have a huge population is due to the abscense of combat mainly. By focusing on harvesting/crafting they only cater to an even smaller target audience.
Just because one likes or craves for a sandbox doesn't mean they'll invest money in just about any of them. There's available gameplay, features/'content' and personal taste to consider as well.
Main reason I'm not playing anything right now is because none of the currently available sandbox games apeal to me. Either not enough depth to the crafting system or economy, no meaningfull combat or realm politics, lack of a story that speaks to me, ...
Are you willing to spend a monthly payment on a product you don't fully endorse for the sake of getting 'your right'?
A Tale in the Desert does not offer combat as previously mentioned. Most MMOG players want combat either PVE or PVP or both. Though I do enjoy crafting immensely, I still desire combat.
I played EVE Online when it first released and quit because of how buggy the game was and how slowly CCP responded with fixes. Those issues have been resolved but I won't play EVE now because it has a skill learning system tied to real world time which it should not. A virtual world should not have such obvious ties to the real world because it destroys immersion and it dismisses the basic tenet that investing more time and effort enables me to advance faster and achieve more than others as long as I play smart.
The main problem with EVE though is that it is a developer sponsored RMT game now, as CCP allows players to buy time cards and trade them ingame for ingame currency. I refuse to play games that allow or sponsor any form of RMT or microtransaction which defeats the basic principle of a MMOG, that being a virtual world where real world money does not exist or have any influence.
The market lacks quality sandbox MMOGs and it's the fault of developers chasing the WoW formula. No one is going to repeat WoW's success and developers need to find their own small, yet profitable niche.
I really think you just trying to pick a fight because you excluded EVE Online in which everyone knows is a straight-up sandbox.
Most any definition of a sandbox you could think of EVE Online meets that criteria
The only pure "sandbox" is Second Life which is *very different*. There is not one pure "sandbox" mmorpg out there
ATITD is a CAREBEAR MMORPG it doesnt count period. I cant PVP anyone in that thing... I'm not trying to trash it but when I pay a monthly sub I better be able to PK someone.... Why should I care if its struggling it has no PVP??? If anything I want for publishers to not clone that game
BTW, I play eve online and most any other sandbox mmorpg I can find that has acceptable graphics. Problem is EVE Online is pretty much only one with current graphics thats released.... SO most of us play it. And most any publisher with a brain knows EVE is a sandbox...
I wasnt aware we were having a fight... I thought we were just talking...
To respond to you though, I excluded EvE as a true sandbox, simply because it isnt. LIke I say, the true sandbox version of EvE would have you starting on an asteroid in empty space, with just the resources present and your character's skills to build the content yourselves. This isnt saying that EvE is a bad game, it obviosuly isnt, it just isnt a pure sandbox game. It has done a very good job of blending a traditional MMORPG with sandbox elements though for sure.
Of course ATTD2, which I don't play myself btw and have no agenda in promoting, it's just a good example for this conversation, 'counts' though... How can it not? Where is it written you have to have PvP to be a sandbox game or a MMORPG? It may not count to you personally, but surely you can be open minded and objective enough to see why it is one of the only true true sandbox games out there.
Like almost everyone else, I think you are calling for a semi-sandbox game. Nothing wrong with that of course, but lets clarify what it is you are actually wanting.
Again, if people won't play the pure sandbox games that are out there now, why would a dev or his VC investors pour $50,000,000 into developing the AAA title you call for? I guess the point I was making with the EQ1 reference earlier was that if I wanted to support a game style that wasnt being catered for, I wouldnt be on the boards talking about it, I would be putting my money where my mouth was and actually playing the ones that existed right now to show everyone there was actually a demand for this type of gaming beyond a few noisy posters scattered across the interweb.
saying all this, and I know it isnt a MMORPG, I must say that Spore is looking amazing and may open up new inroads into true sandbox gaming that we will never see in this genre. I am looking forward to, if it is the success it looks like it will be, the influence it will have on future true sandbox MMOPRPGs.
I'm not one of these sandboxers, but something like GTA4 is maybe pointing out sandbox is more popular than thought.(as naff as I think GTA is..)
People are playing the big titles like they are a sandbox game and doing their best to get what they can out of it.
For example, I firmly believe that Eve's populationis where it is because it "wins" by default - there are no other space mmos.
As someone who could be classified as a "sandboxer" all I'm asking for is a world that lets you figure stuff out instead of a world that drags you by the nose to the next batch of 20 bats to kill.
Eve has some cool stuff and pve content that is about as exciting to me as organzing my sock drawer. Each game out there right now has some of hte right stuff but , I think , is trying to cater to non sandboxers first and foremost.
well, I'm too lazy to see if this game was mentioned but http://www.mortalonline.com/ seems to have sandbox potential. But I can't help but wonder why a game like that wouldn't have much buzz around it. I'd say about a 50/50 chance of vapor-ware. sandbox games don't last..
As to the original topic, I agree, their hasn't been many sandbox type games of quality in recent years, and I doubt I'd want a total sand-box as described by the OP, where there was no content provided by the game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Pre-CU SWG. Now thats a sandbox game. Period.
I'd say Tale in a Desert is a "sandbox" game only since it sits in a friggin desert.
"There's one MMO developer that doesn't want the money put in front of them - SOE"
played wurmonline and loved it for two years, played EvE for a month and was to detached from stuff, playing second life since there's some uber crafting here and it's pure sandbox.
edit: well kinda pure sandbox you can make anything you want if you have the abilities(which I do, programming is fun and their scripting engine is insanely simple to even a newbie programmer). One day I could work on a wave rezzer(for surfing), next an enchanted sword(for combat), next day some teaching tools, and the next day help someone with a build(even though I don't play much I do have a fancy script library of custom stuff I've tossed together).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
yeah but to be frank like we'vew all told you no one wants to play a crappy ATITD game so that's that. We dont want a crappy game cloned- we want something good developed
Second Life is a pure sandbox and its revenues are HUGE. Publishers have taken notice.
Thus there is no point to this thread but its a good read nevertheless :P
edit- Laslty, just because EVE online has some linear content for players that like that they dont force us to do it. Lookup definition of Sandbox at wikipedia or any source you value. EVE Online and others meet that definition
Just because they have optional linear content for fans doesnt make them less of a sandbox. Second Life is a pure sandbox but players have created mini-RPGs world within. To say its not a sandbox is ridiculous....
You can have linear content in a sandbox.
Seriously just because you stood up and declared a true sandbox is a boring game in the desert doesnt mean the rest of us have to agree with you. Even in second life you can PK in the mini-worlds. ATITD lacks this freedom so its questionable if its a sandbox. If it is- its a boring one not worth my money. EVE Online is a true sandbox where players can build anything and do anything conceivable in that game world. ATITD lacks basic freedoms essential to a good sandbox worth most people's money....
You are mistaken by SWG elite players that think that the world should revolve around them and the other folks that simply like sandbox elements. I myself love EVE and don’t see the need to ask for more then what this game has to offer. Once in a while, I’ll play Mabinogi and that’s also a fairly simple and fun linear/sandbox game.
Now why did I say SWG players? Because it’s where the big juicy grief and sorrow all started when they got hit on the head by SOE. So when they saw that no other games were going to be like that, they decided to change the term of “Give me back my Star wars!” to “Give me back my sandbox”
Sadly, they want the exact same thing as SWG so tales from a desert won’t offer them that.
I might be wrong and I really hope I am but from my point of view, that’s what I get when reading the forums and doing some background checks. Don’t get me wrong, I love the old SWG as well so I’m pretty much in the same boat J
I really think you just trying to pick a fight because you excluded EVE Online in which everyone knows is a straight-up sandbox.
Most any definition of a sandbox you could think of EVE Online meets that criteria
The only pure "sandbox" is Second Life which is *very different*. There is not one pure "sandbox" mmorpg out there
ATITD is a CAREBEAR MMORPG it doesnt count period. I cant PVP anyone in that thing... I'm not trying to trash it but when I pay a monthly sub I better be able to PK someone.... Why should I care if its struggling it has no PVP??? If anything I want for publishers to not clone that game
BTW, I play eve online and most any other sandbox mmorpg I can find that has acceptable graphics. Problem is EVE Online is pretty much only one with current graphics thats released.... SO most of us play it. And most any publisher with a brain knows EVE is a sandbox...
I wasnt aware we were having a fight... I thought we were just talking...
To respond to you though, I excluded EvE as a true sandbox, simply because it isnt. LIke I say, the true sandbox version of EvE would have you starting on an asteroid in empty space, with just the resources present and your character's skills to build the content yourselves. This isnt saying that EvE is a bad game, it obviosuly isnt, it just isnt a pure sandbox game. It has done a very good job of blending a traditional MMORPG with sandbox elements though for sure.
Of course ATTD2, which I don't play myself btw and have no agenda in promoting, it's just a good example for this conversation, 'counts' though... How can it not? Where is it written you have to have PvP to be a sandbox game or a MMORPG? It may not count to you personally, but surely you can be open minded and objective enough to see why it is one of the only true true sandbox games out there.
Like almost everyone else, I think you are calling for a semi-sandbox game. Nothing wrong with that of course, but lets clarify what it is you are actually wanting.
Again, if people won't play the pure sandbox games that are out there now, why would a dev or his VC investors pour $50,000,000 into developing the AAA title you call for? I guess the point I was making with the EQ1 reference earlier was that if I wanted to support a game style that wasnt being catered for, I wouldnt be on the boards talking about it, I would be putting my money where my mouth was and actually playing the ones that existed right now to show everyone there was actually a demand for this type of gaming beyond a few noisy posters scattered across the interweb.
saying all this, and I know it isnt a MMORPG, I must say that Spore is looking amazing and may open up new inroads into true sandbox gaming that we will never see in this genre. I am looking forward to, if it is the success it looks like it will be, the influence it will have on future true sandbox MMOPRPGs.
yeah but to be frank like we'vew all told you no one wants to play a crappy ATITD game so that's that. We dont want a crappy game cloned- we want something good developed
I have never once said that ATiTD2 is the apex of true sandbox gaming, I have openly just used it as a discussion point. No need to start getting hostile.
Lets be honest, despite it's 'deciated' and vocal fanbase, even EvE dosent have the numbers to push investment does it? If it did we would have more semi-sandbox MMORPGs flooding the market, and not the linear casual-lite efforts we are seeing.
My point is that you will never get anything 'good' developed unless there is a shown market for what already exists.
Second Life is a pure sandbox and its revenues are HUGE. Publishers have taken notice.
So where are the other Second Life type games in development if publishers have taken notice? Why are it's sub numbers plummeting?
More proof there isnt a sustainable market for a true sandbox MMORPG in todays gaming world?
Seriously just because you stood up and declared a true sandbox is a boring game in the desert doesnt mean the rest of us have to agree with you.
I am not asking to be agreed with, I am just chatting and seeing what people think...
Even in second life you can PK in the mini-worlds. ATITD lacks this freedom so its questionable if its a sandbox. If it is- its a boring one not worth my money. EVE Online is a true sandbox where players can build anything and do anything conceivable in that game world.
'Anything concievable' in that game world?
Can you elaborate plz?
Because quality trumps sandbox. A tale of the desert I have heard, if I'm thinkin gof the right one, has a good crafting system but a terrible hunting system. UO is arguably only fantacy sandbox game that has any quality to it. Eve meh not my cup of tea not enough action.
I'd like to see something inbetween a full sandbox no story at all and the lead by the nose story that we currently have.
The only sandbox game worth playing was UO from 97-99.
Once they removed murdering, stealing, and practically anything else that was sandboxy it sucked. Everything trying to be like that since then has failed and hasn't been a true sandbox.
To answer your question, present me a real sandbox game and I'll play it.
NPC's are easy to predict, but a player hiding behind a tree who's been watching you travel down the dirt road anxiously waiting to ambush and rob you and possibly play hide the weasle with your skull, now THAT'S excitement.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
There is no "new", "quality", "fantasy", "PVE", "sandbox" MMORPG right now.
A Tale in the Desert? UO? EQ?
C'mon.
While I agree the FFA PVPers are noisy and smaller in numbers than they think, I feel the linear-MMORPG design crowd are just as lost, if much more numerous. Why play a linear game when you can watch a movie and save yourself Karpal Tunnel Syndrome? Same linear path, same outcome.
Unfortunately the only ones that seam interested in even thinking about designing a sandbox are the OMFG FFA PVP FULL LOOT OR YOUR A PANSY CAREBEAR crowd. Been there done that a couple years in UO. No desire to go backwards.
I think it comes down to the venture capitalists and the developer doing the sell job. Do sandbox games fail because no one wants a sandbox game or were those previous implementations just done poorly? I think a developer interested in doing a sandbox game has to convince the money guys it can work and be profitable -- it has nothing to do with patronizing that sub-genre of mmos but that's just my opinion.
in the past year I've seen secondlife's peak hour usage go from 30-40 thousand online to that much at any time during the day.
you can't just say a random number and have it be true.
_____________________________
as for why they're bad useage ratings I have no clue it's actually quite good for any game anyone who thinks otherwise is likely AAA type person that demands 80 million dollar budgets so they can get the same thing over and over again.
as for why they're so much lower than what you would expect for a sandbox game of it's scope just look at their own quality metrics. seriously 30 something percent of all client exits are from the client or a server crashing. So if developers aren't looking at making an already profitable market(you have everything from the normal subscription options, server/land rental, building costs, scimming off to top of cashouts-----) they can look at the fact that the competition lead isn't all that great(it's downright horrible, and even the community ends up cursing lindenlabs at least 35 times more than they have to say anything else about it(typically neutral look at this type stuff, instead of good)).
You can narrow down the sucess to a handful of things; parametric building, lots of texture options, land ownership, ownership in some form, a powerful but simplified scripting language(around the learning curve of BASIC), and hell of a lot of press even negative press. Basically what makes second life is the ability to build the world extremely casually and with minmal knowledge while you pay the developers and content makers* as you go along.
*I've only ever put 4 dollars in, and two months worth of subscription stuff for a few bonuses. I've withdrawed enough cash to buy a nice JAVA programming book for a present to myself(about twice as much as I've spent ever with the $20 for two months and the first 4), and make enough to never have to put any more real money in. If I wasn't so lazy I'd be making quite a bit more, but then it wouldn't be a game anymore.
----- It works like this I sell my linden cash back to linden labs, and they sell it to someone who is buying(scimming 5% profit off both ways) and charging me a transfer fee. This person then buys something from a creator and eventually someone will end up cashing out on the money once again with linden labs scimming a percent of profit off the transfer. Seriously it's a similar effect to banking in the fact that you're printing money(economic term not literal here) all in all a hell of a lot of money for a few database transactions akin to the process of you camping a mob spawn for a couple of minutes(total resource usage including the creation of the system).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
In EVE Online players can:
1) Build any Item from a t1 frigate to a Deathstar (Titan)
2) Build any object you see NPCs have. so we can build space stations, jumpbridges, POSes, refineries, labs, anything....
3) The quests (agent missions and story) is 100% optional. I do them sometimes for entertainment buts its 100% optional
4) Players can PK anyone but in Empire space you get in trouble with local law
5) Even a newbie can explore any area of the game
6) Players can be anything they want no restrictions. You can be a pure crafter (like my alt) or everything that interests you on one character (like my main a jack of all trades)
And yes Second Life has inspired a few other titles into development as has been posted on various news sites. edit- off top of my head checkout Raph Koster site for his new project and if you search the net you can find some in closed testing. I'm not going to post a link however since I'm in closed testing for one and they'd fry me for posting the link on this site.... I can only give a clue that Raph koster regularly lists sandbox titles he finds
i dont know how anyone can be inspired by second life...most of it looks like crap since everything except the basics is player made, there's no continuity between the areas, there's alot of porn freaks, Goons, and everything else skulking around. Its just a bunch of player made areas jammed together full of porn or people trying to make RL money off you. Its a Virtual World that hides behind the F2P tag despite RL money being needed to buy property / items / sexual organs/ etc in the world. Its not a game...its a set of virtual chat rooms...full of all the weird obsessive folks.
Atleast UO was a game...you were able to take on whatever role you wanted..even if it meant you played a dead carcass most of the time. But you were still apart of the UO world..everything 'fit' together (until they trammelized it).
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Yeah, your right! What a bunch of whack jobs!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to pretend I am a female halfling and fight a pretend dragon...