This is one of the STUPIDEST threads ive come across....
First... MMOs have a certian style to them... which includes levels and armour and all that jazz. Take it away and your making a new genre of game. Second, it does take 'skill' when you have to plan strategies with a group of people to take down bosses.
Not exactly so. The reason is because:
1 - People believe the level system is outdated. Skill-based MMO will still be an MMO, same with level-based MMO, all are still MMO's, just with difference in design. People are debating whether skill-based MMOs are truely more customizable, the balancing associated with it, and weighing their different opinions, etc. Won't necessarily be a new genre or anything.
2 - Problem is there still is pretty much no skill in the actual killing of the boss. People just pile-jump and gang-bang the Boss, and when your health gets low, you scream for medics and the medic clicks F1 to heal you, and that's that. No leg-slashing to decrease its speed (instead you F2 for "Decrease Agility"), you can't sever its arms to prevent it from smashing you to bits, you just repeatedly click (or just auto-click) at the boss to slowly hack away.
That's MY interpretation of "Skill-based MMO's".
* Want to see how dumb you are? Click here to take the dumb test!
might have been said already but the problem I think with 'skills-based' is that the more clued up players will look up which is the most efficient build while the more 'casual 'players will stick with what they think is best. So maybe you'd have a big divide. Actually I could be talking bollocks.
Class system is easier to make because it is what developers know and because there are hundreds of class based games you can copy things from.
The other reason is that most gamers are idiots, with class system these idiots have a beaten path to follow, which amounts to less whining on the feedback forum.
This is one of the STUPIDEST threads ive come across....
First... MMOs have a certian style to them... which includes levels and armour and all that jazz. Take it away and your making a new genre of game. Second, it does take 'skill' when you have to plan strategies with a group of people to take down bosses.
Where in the definition of MMO does it say they are armour or level limited? Stupid point on your behalf actually.
Levels are dated, they are worn out, they are for lazy developers. Your character is level 40 and mine is level 25, yet if we PvP I can't even hurt your character. How is that realistic or even possible? I'm wacking you with a sword or blasting you with a gun, but no damage. Suddenly you're Superman...
THAT is stupid.
I've played a skill-based game (PRE-CU SWG) and I've played several level-based games (WoW, etc) and I can tell you with certainty that skill-based is MUCH better, it's not even close.
This is one of the STUPIDEST threads ive come across....
First... MMOs have a certian style to them... which includes levels and armour and all that jazz. Take it away and your making a new genre of game. Second, it does take 'skill' when you have to plan strategies with a group of people to take down bosses.
Not exactly so. The reason is because:
1 - People believe the level system is outdated. Skill-based MMO will still be an MMO, same with level-based MMO, all are still MMO's, just with difference in design. People are debating whether skill-based MMOs are truely more customizable, the balancing associated with it, and weighing their different opinions, etc. Won't necessarily be a new genre or anything.
2 - Problem is there still is pretty much no skill in the actual killing of the boss. People just pile-jump and gang-bang the Boss, and when your health gets low, you scream for medics and the medic clicks F1 to heal you, and that's that. No leg-slashing to decrease its speed (instead you F2 for "Decrease Agility"), you can't sever its arms to prevent it from smashing you to bits, you just repeatedly click (or just auto-click) at the boss to slowly hack away.
That's MY interpretation of "Skill-based MMO's".
Your info on PvE bosses is highly outdated and innacurate. Go read an FAQ for some of the higher end bosses in WOW or FFXI. If you think you just click 1 button over and over again, you're mistaken. The skill is in figuring out all the strategies and then performing them flawlessly, since one mistake from anyone usually means a wipe. After doing it 100 times of course it gets easier, but thats not the point. Its not easy at 1st.
Originally posted by tfox2k1 MMO players in general are not skilled gamers, they are persistent gamers.
Ridiculous. MMO’s require strategic, tactical and teamwork skills, all of which are a much higher order of skill then what a twitch game required. If you want an analogy the MMO players is the CEO while the twitch gamer is factory worker.
This is one of the STUPIDEST threads ive come across....
First... MMOs have a certian style to them... which includes levels and armour and all that jazz. Take it away and your making a new genre of game. Second, it does take 'skill' when you have to plan strategies with a group of people to take down bosses.
Not exactly so. The reason is because:
1 - People believe the level system is outdated. Skill-based MMO will still be an MMO, same with level-based MMO, all are still MMO's, just with difference in design. People are debating whether skill-based MMOs are truely more customizable, the balancing associated with it, and weighing their different opinions, etc. Won't necessarily be a new genre or anything.
2 - Problem is there still is pretty much no skill in the actual killing of the boss. People just pile-jump and gang-bang the Boss, and when your health gets low, you scream for medics and the medic clicks F1 to heal you, and that's that. No leg-slashing to decrease its speed (instead you F2 for "Decrease Agility"), you can't sever its arms to prevent it from smashing you to bits, you just repeatedly click (or just auto-click) at the boss to slowly hack away.
That's MY interpretation of "Skill-based MMO's".
Your info on PvE bosses is highly outdated and innacurate. Go read an FAQ for some of the higher end bosses in WOW or FFXI. If you think you just click 1 button over and over again, you're mistaken. The skill is in figuring out all the strategies and then performing them flawlessly, since one mistake from anyone usually means a wipe. After doing it 100 times of course it gets easier, but thats not the point. Its not easy at 1st.
Exactly, there is very much strategy in MMOs like EQ and FFXI that actually take skill because theres groups of 50 that cant take down a Boss, and a group of 18 with the same armour/lvl that can.
And Saying that thing about being lvl 40 and cant hit a lvl 20 and they will be like superman is stupid....
Its a freakin GAME! your casting spells and killing dragons... how realistic do you want it to be?
Ok, first of all, MMOs get WAY too much credit for being "strategic" games. No doubt, they lean much closer to the strategic side of the spectrum than the twitch side of the spectrum. However, MMOs are not RTS (obviously). Theres a very limited amount of strategy involved. Level>gear>>class>>>>>>player skill, this is nearly always the case with MMOs. Youre not going to pull off ridiculous encounters in MMOs based off of player skill and strategy, they just dont work that way.
The only area that MMOs take any significant amount of skill is in group coordination. Getting everyone to do what theyre supposed to do, when theyre supposed to do it takes some time and effort. But even then, players are usually reduced to the most basic functions: stand here, press this, when/if this happens, press that...
Second, all of these excuses for class/level based systems are pretty lame, honestly. Some people like those systems, great, if you do, then you have plenty of options out there. But, to assume that almost everyone prefers class/level systems is about as big of a leap as assuming that skill based systems will never make a come back. Some prefer class/level, some prefer skill based, and the majority (in all likeliness) either dont know or dont care. They play what ever comes out, assuming its polished.
MMOs are fine the way they are. Tens of millions of people love them the way they are and i think thats enough.
Maybe that's good enough for YOU, but some of us gamers who like to actually play a challenging game that requires skill and intelligence want more than levels and classes.
Thinking like yours stunts progress. You go ahead and keep playing yoru grindfests with the kids. Hopefully I'll see some of the adults over at Fallen Earth when it launches.
Matrix Online was my first MMO, and I grew fond of the freedom that it's skill/leveling system offered. You could completely change your load-out on a whim without penalty. They balanced that out by making leveling up skills a big money sink, and you also had to grind mobs for high-end code parts to build higher-end skills. Too bad the game had other short-comings or else I would still be playing. Anyway, after Matrix Online, every other MMO seemed way too restrictive, except for Guild Wars.
MMOs are fine the way they are. Tens of millions of people love them the way they are and i think thats enough.
Maybe that's good enough for YOU, but some of us gamers who like to actually play a challenging game that requires skill and intelligence want more than levels and classes.
Thinking like yours stunts progress. You go ahead and keep playing yoru grindfests with the kids. Hopefully I'll see some of the adults over at Fallen Earth when it launches.
Skill based games do NOT require any more skill or intelligence. If by challenging, you mean unintuitive, tedious and boring, you can have all those MMOs most people don't bother playing.
Look into Darkfall, i am waiting for you, and it has no classes, and no levels, completely skill based. Supposed to be coming out at end of year, but devs kinda slackin on journals and such.
You do realize that most of us are talking about "skill based", as in, no classes or levels...right? Whether the game actually involves player skill is a whole other issue that has nothing to do with being class based ot skill based.
Ok, first of all, MMOs get WAY too much credit for being "strategic" games. No doubt, they lean much closer to the strategic side of the spectrum than the twitch side of the spectrum. However, MMOs are not RTS (obviously). Theres a very limited amount of strategy involved. Level>gear>>class>>>>>>player skill, this is nearly always the case with MMOs. s out, assuming its polished.
RTS are not really strategy games. At the end of the day they are micromanaging games, the person who clicks the fastest wins unless they really suck.
MMO’s do offer a convenient excuse to people with much less skill then they think they have. When they can’t do something they blame others, blame their gear, blame their class, blame everything but their own lack of ability. To these people “there is no skill involved” because they won’t admit other players are better then they are.
Originally posted by lomiller RTS are not really strategy games. At the end of the day they are micromanaging games, the person who clicks the fastest wins unless they really suck. MMO’s do offer a convenient excuse to people with much less skill then they think they have. When they can’t do something they blame others, blame their gear, blame their class, blame everything but their own lack of ability. To these people “there is no skill involved” because they won’t admit other players are better then they are.
No one is going to tell you that theres "no skill involved". Some players are horrible, some are decent, and some are "good". Theres just a much lower ceiling there.
And, there most defiantely are players who blame everything BUT their own skill. This is most obvious with some of the more compex classes that are supposedly "gimp"...that is, until some one comes along and plays them correctly, making all the button mashers look like fools.
However, youd have a hard time trying to argue that: level>gear>class>player skill, isnt true in most MMOs. Thats the way most of these games are designed to be and thats the way they play out.
I play a "skill" based game, in a literal sense. I play stepmania, the people that are too dumb for a decent convorsation wills top reading at that, but I'll explain for the 3 people that kept reading with an open mind. I play fairly tough stuff, I play index style for anyone who knows the game, and for the level of skill I play at, I actually have to practice or I start to suck. My timing gets off, I can't sightread the notes fast enough, I make the wrong placement choices on certain patterns, and things of the like. A skill based (talking to the player skill idead) should be like that, if you don't practice at it, you won't get better, and chances are, you'll get worse. This would mean the game is like a sport, there's natural skill, practiced skill, and experience. The people most apt in those three catagories would be the best at the game, experience you would gain at the same rate, while some people would have to practice more than others, or gain more from practice.
I really wish an MMO was brave enough to do something like that, but no dev team would do that because of the rut MMO's are in. If there was a game where my twitch skill, experience with gaming, and ability to learn and practice a game all came into play to a very important extent, I'd play that game for the rest of my life. Getting tired of being gear focused, or thinking holy crap that guy/monster is 10 levels above me, I won't even do damage to him/it, or "even though I'm a great player, if 4-5 random people decide to attack me at once, no matter how good I am or how much they suck, I'll die". Player skill is removed from MMO's, because people would complain, or not pay for the game, if they got severely out classed by a guy that's lower level with worse gear because the guy knew what he was doing.
How great would a skill based game be. I miss the freedom of defining what my character is. Take UO's skills add in skill abilities like class abilities of current gen mmos. And I'd be in MMO heaven. It's really sucks that the only ones that seam interested in skill based systems are the ffa pvp, full loot crowd. I enjoy some pvp but I'm a carebear at heart.
I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and the 2 MMO's i played the longest are skill based mmo's. Asheron's Call for 3 years and Anarchy Online for 2.5. I think the reasons given by most on this thread are valid. Peoples want instant gratification, they want easy game where you can go through fast and easily. A game like AO takes so much times to master, it turned away peoples.
Comments
This is one of the STUPIDEST threads ive come across....
First... MMOs have a certian style to them... which includes levels and armour and all that jazz. Take it away and your making a new genre of game.
Second, it does take 'skill' when you have to plan strategies with a group of people to take down bosses.
1 - People believe the level system is outdated. Skill-based MMO will still be an MMO, same with level-based MMO, all are still MMO's, just with difference in design. People are debating whether skill-based MMOs are truely more customizable, the balancing associated with it, and weighing their different opinions, etc. Won't necessarily be a new genre or anything.
2 - Problem is there still is pretty much no skill in the actual killing of the boss. People just pile-jump and gang-bang the Boss, and when your health gets low, you scream for medics and the medic clicks F1 to heal you, and that's that. No leg-slashing to decrease its speed (instead you F2 for "Decrease Agility"), you can't sever its arms to prevent it from smashing you to bits, you just repeatedly click (or just auto-click) at the boss to slowly hack away.
That's MY interpretation of "Skill-based MMO's".
* Want to see how dumb you are? Click here to take the dumb test!
might have been said already but the problem I think with 'skills-based' is that the more clued up players will look up which is the most efficient build while the more 'casual 'players will stick with what they think is best. So maybe you'd have a big divide. Actually I could be talking bollocks.
Class system is easier to make because it is what developers know and because there are hundreds of class based games you can copy things from.
The other reason is that most gamers are idiots, with class system these idiots have a beaten path to follow, which amounts to less whining on the feedback forum.
Figuring this out is really no stretch.
Where in the definition of MMO does it say they are armour or level limited? Stupid point on your behalf actually.
Levels are dated, they are worn out, they are for lazy developers. Your character is level 40 and mine is level 25, yet if we PvP I can't even hurt your character. How is that realistic or even possible? I'm wacking you with a sword or blasting you with a gun, but no damage. Suddenly you're Superman...
THAT is stupid.
I've played a skill-based game (PRE-CU SWG) and I've played several level-based games (WoW, etc) and I can tell you with certainty that skill-based is MUCH better, it's not even close.
Tecmo Bowl.
Not exactly so. The reason is because:1 - People believe the level system is outdated. Skill-based MMO will still be an MMO, same with level-based MMO, all are still MMO's, just with difference in design. People are debating whether skill-based MMOs are truely more customizable, the balancing associated with it, and weighing their different opinions, etc. Won't necessarily be a new genre or anything.
2 - Problem is there still is pretty much no skill in the actual killing of the boss. People just pile-jump and gang-bang the Boss, and when your health gets low, you scream for medics and the medic clicks F1 to heal you, and that's that. No leg-slashing to decrease its speed (instead you F2 for "Decrease Agility"), you can't sever its arms to prevent it from smashing you to bits, you just repeatedly click (or just auto-click) at the boss to slowly hack away.
That's MY interpretation of "Skill-based MMO's".
Your info on PvE bosses is highly outdated and innacurate. Go read an FAQ for some of the higher end bosses in WOW or FFXI. If you think you just click 1 button over and over again, you're mistaken. The skill is in figuring out all the strategies and then performing them flawlessly, since one mistake from anyone usually means a wipe. After doing it 100 times of course it gets easier, but thats not the point. Its not easy at 1st.
Ridiculous. MMO’s require strategic, tactical and teamwork skills, all of which are a much higher order of skill then what a twitch game required. If you want an analogy the MMO players is the CEO while the twitch gamer is factory worker.
1 - People believe the level system is outdated. Skill-based MMO will still be an MMO, same with level-based MMO, all are still MMO's, just with difference in design. People are debating whether skill-based MMOs are truely more customizable, the balancing associated with it, and weighing their different opinions, etc. Won't necessarily be a new genre or anything.
2 - Problem is there still is pretty much no skill in the actual killing of the boss. People just pile-jump and gang-bang the Boss, and when your health gets low, you scream for medics and the medic clicks F1 to heal you, and that's that. No leg-slashing to decrease its speed (instead you F2 for "Decrease Agility"), you can't sever its arms to prevent it from smashing you to bits, you just repeatedly click (or just auto-click) at the boss to slowly hack away.
That's MY interpretation of "Skill-based MMO's".
Your info on PvE bosses is highly outdated and innacurate. Go read an FAQ for some of the higher end bosses in WOW or FFXI. If you think you just click 1 button over and over again, you're mistaken. The skill is in figuring out all the strategies and then performing them flawlessly, since one mistake from anyone usually means a wipe. After doing it 100 times of course it gets easier, but thats not the point. Its not easy at 1st.
Exactly, there is very much strategy in MMOs like EQ and FFXI that actually take skill because theres groups of 50 that cant take down a Boss, and a group of 18 with the same armour/lvl that can.
And Saying that thing about being lvl 40 and cant hit a lvl 20 and they will be like superman is stupid....
Its a freakin GAME! your casting spells and killing dragons... how realistic do you want it to be?
Ok, first of all, MMOs get WAY too much credit for being "strategic" games. No doubt, they lean much closer to the strategic side of the spectrum than the twitch side of the spectrum. However, MMOs are not RTS (obviously). Theres a very limited amount of strategy involved. Level>gear>>class>>>>>>player skill, this is nearly always the case with MMOs. Youre not going to pull off ridiculous encounters in MMOs based off of player skill and strategy, they just dont work that way.
The only area that MMOs take any significant amount of skill is in group coordination. Getting everyone to do what theyre supposed to do, when theyre supposed to do it takes some time and effort. But even then, players are usually reduced to the most basic functions: stand here, press this, when/if this happens, press that...
Second, all of these excuses for class/level based systems are pretty lame, honestly. Some people like those systems, great, if you do, then you have plenty of options out there. But, to assume that almost everyone prefers class/level systems is about as big of a leap as assuming that skill based systems will never make a come back. Some prefer class/level, some prefer skill based, and the majority (in all likeliness) either dont know or dont care. They play what ever comes out, assuming its polished.
MMOs are fine the way they are.
Tens of millions of people love them the way they are and i think thats enough.
Thinking like yours stunts progress. You go ahead and keep playing yoru grindfests with the kids. Hopefully I'll see some of the adults over at Fallen Earth when it launches.
Tecmo Bowl.
Matrix Online was my first MMO, and I grew fond of the freedom that it's skill/leveling system offered. You could completely change your load-out on a whim without penalty. They balanced that out by making leveling up skills a big money sink, and you also had to grind mobs for high-end code parts to build higher-end skills. Too bad the game had other short-comings or else I would still be playing. Anyway, after Matrix Online, every other MMO seemed way too restrictive, except for Guild Wars.
Thinking like yours stunts progress. You go ahead and keep playing yoru grindfests with the kids. Hopefully I'll see some of the adults over at Fallen Earth when it launches.
Skill based games do NOT require any more skill or intelligence. If by challenging, you mean unintuitive, tedious and boring, you can have all those MMOs most people don't bother playing.
I love how we are arguing about games....
There really isnt much skill to any game in a sense... Besides quick thinking and quick fingers.
So all those "I want skill based games!" people, go back to halo, leave the MMOs be.
Look into Darkfall, i am waiting for you, and it has no classes, and no levels, completely skill based. Supposed to be coming out at end of year, but devs kinda slackin on journals and such.
You do realize that most of us are talking about "skill based", as in, no classes or levels...right? Whether the game actually involves player skill is a whole other issue that has nothing to do with being class based ot skill based.
RTS are not really strategy games. At the end of the day they are micromanaging games, the person who clicks the fastest wins unless they really suck.
MMO’s do offer a convenient excuse to people with much less skill then they think they have. When they can’t do something they blame others, blame their gear, blame their class, blame everything but their own lack of ability. To these people “there is no skill involved” because they won’t admit other players are better then they are.
And, there most defiantely are players who blame everything BUT their own skill. This is most obvious with some of the more compex classes that are supposedly "gimp"...that is, until some one comes along and plays them correctly, making all the button mashers look like fools.
However, youd have a hard time trying to argue that: level>gear>class>player skill, isnt true in most MMOs. Thats the way most of these games are designed to be and thats the way they play out.
Darkfall
Yup, DFO, if it actually delivers... Which one hopes.
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I play a "skill" based game, in a literal sense. I play stepmania, the people that are too dumb for a decent convorsation wills top reading at that, but I'll explain for the 3 people that kept reading with an open mind. I play fairly tough stuff, I play index style for anyone who knows the game, and for the level of skill I play at, I actually have to practice or I start to suck. My timing gets off, I can't sightread the notes fast enough, I make the wrong placement choices on certain patterns, and things of the like. A skill based (talking to the player skill idead) should be like that, if you don't practice at it, you won't get better, and chances are, you'll get worse. This would mean the game is like a sport, there's natural skill, practiced skill, and experience. The people most apt in those three catagories would be the best at the game, experience you would gain at the same rate, while some people would have to practice more than others, or gain more from practice.
I really wish an MMO was brave enough to do something like that, but no dev team would do that because of the rut MMO's are in. If there was a game where my twitch skill, experience with gaming, and ability to learn and practice a game all came into play to a very important extent, I'd play that game for the rest of my life. Getting tired of being gear focused, or thinking holy crap that guy/monster is 10 levels above me, I won't even do damage to him/it, or "even though I'm a great player, if 4-5 random people decide to attack me at once, no matter how good I am or how much they suck, I'll die". Player skill is removed from MMO's, because people would complain, or not pay for the game, if they got severely out classed by a guy that's lower level with worse gear because the guy knew what he was doing.
How great would a skill based game be. I miss the freedom of defining what my character is. Take UO's skills add in skill abilities like class abilities of current gen mmos. And I'd be in MMO heaven. It's really sucks that the only ones that seam interested in skill based systems are the ffa pvp, full loot crowd. I enjoy some pvp but I'm a carebear at heart.
I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and the 2 MMO's i played the longest are skill based mmo's. Asheron's Call for 3 years and Anarchy Online for 2.5. I think the reasons given by most on this thread are valid. Peoples want instant gratification, they want easy game where you can go through fast and easily. A game like AO takes so much times to master, it turned away peoples.