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why do people throw away money?
damian7
Member Posts: 4,449
mmo-type games get released with loads of bugs, lag, and just crap; because people PAY for it. not only do people buy the box, they pay a monthly sub, and they say things like "oh, we just need to stick it out a few months while they work out the bugs".
each of these game companies has had YEARS of time, MILLIONS of dollars and many people working overtime to build these games. what exactly about an MMO takes MILLIONS of dollars to create? if your development team is making six figures and has experience on numerous other MMO and/or game projects; then, why haven't they learned from the past and are releasing bug-free games for the years and millions put into these mmos?
for every mmo that gets released and the moronic reasoning is "oh all mmos are always evolving and are never complete"; please understand that does not include bugs/crashes/etc; that means that new content gets added, new skills/classes/races get added, new items/housing/mounts/etc gets added. that is NOT a reason for why a game gets to retail and is bug-filled.
MILLIONS of dollars. raise your hand if you currently have a million dollars. do you know how much money that is? 30 million dollars. how does half a decade (or longer) and tens of millions of dollars, ONLY buy a bug-filled retail game?
not only that; but, they "rely" upon players who donate their time and effort for testing the game pre-release. players who are not employees and are not paid, are used to supplement the people that are pissing away multiple millions of dollars, in order to make a game.
so, why?
are we, as a people, so weak-minded that we HAVE to have something to follow and worship? if it's not a sports team, then it's a gaming company?
i do fully blame fanbois for their blind faith (read - stupidity), in feeding the egos of dev teams and saying they'll play a game even if it crashes to the desktop once an hour. but, it's not only fanbois that are buying the boxes and paying for MONTHS of a buggy game.
heck, i've even seen staff on this site make posts about how folks should just try to stick it out with the game for a few more months, because it's making all sorts of improvements. a few months to PAY money to BETA test a game until it's got the bugs worked out.
does anyone understand how insane that sounds?
i mean, if i were a gaming company, i would love to DEATH, everyone that talks like that.
i'm also curious, people of those opinions, do you accept that from cable, cell phone, or any other monthly service you have? would it be ok with you if your satellite/cable crashed and had to be rebooted a couple of times a day? or if you had laggy (perhaps static-filled) television programs and/or phone calls?
honestly, are you that way with every service to which you subscribe? if you are NOT, then you are either a hypocrite, or what? stupid? fanboi? a child who doesn't have to pay any bills? i'm not even sure what it would categorize you as.
would you pay to go to a ball game (which is just a game and is just entertainment, just like MMOs), only to have the pitcher or quarterback (or whatever position), on the team you're hoping wins, decide he would take a nap in the middle of the game? would you be cool with having thrown away that $40 (or more) ticket? you're paying $50-100 for a box, and $15/month, yes, it's a replacement for sports (or another hobby to go along with sports' watching). would it be acceptable to you if your team was winning by one point and with 10 minutes to go, the coach put in all the second stringers? what if you're watching a playoff game at home, and there's about to be the play the decides who wins and who loses... and your cable/satellite died for five minutes? would you be perfectly fine with that? after all, it's JUST a game, and i know people that would be ready to put holes thru chest cavities if that happened.
so... why do you throw away money and tell gaming companies, "hey, give us whatever crap-filled game you want, i WILL support you"... ?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
I pay for gameplay and ideology, not stability and polish.
Many people spend much more than the cost of an MMO on relatively non-interactive, evanescent goods like seeing movies in theatre and eating fast food.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
and that goes for any sports game you watch, your actual cable/satellite/radio/phone/internet service as well?
these are different forms of entertainment for which you pay.
my questions really were NOT confined to just why does someone play a game, i want to know if those people that pay to play subpar games, also pay for subpar everything else and if they, honestly, would be satisfied if everything else were subpar.
that is why i gave examples as i did.
so, would you?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i see you edited it.
so, say the movie you're watching in the theatre had parts where it "lagged", i.e. the movie stuttered and spurted and you were unable to understand what was being said or see it very well (since you've ignored all the examples i gave and actually gave examples that i did not break down)... would you be pleased with the shoddy movie presentation?
say your popcorn tasted a bit nasty and you found a couple of roaches crawling out of it. your soda had a dead fly floating in it. would you be satisfied with these "bugs"?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I used to have one exception - SWG because I loved it so much. I think I would still accept its faults today if it were still in the old system. But not now. I am tired of the bugs and lags in certain games so I simply wont bother with them. The fact that no-one on the current SGW bothers to implement some decent PVP goals as all their faithful subscribers stand around Restuss. That is total disregard and disrespect to the players there.
But anyway, I think a better analogy would be you are watching a baseball game and the only bat broke in half and they had to continue with it taped up or a football match and the goal posts keep falling down. Or watching hockey and the ice defrosted. Or watching a concert and the sounds was only coming out of one amp. Or reading a book and the pages werent glued together, or buying a pair of jeans but the butt area wasnt finished yet so you had to walk around with buttocks on display....Ive taken it too far havent I.
But, I do agree, but I see it more as a disrespect to the player base. They feel we are dumb enough to put up with it. It isnt our job to test it, its ours to pay them to do that so we can get on and have fun and roleplay without rubberbanding backwards into a wall. But I do suffer from the SWG curse so maybe I am a little more tainted than others opinions.
The mmo developers have a gnack at finding lazy amateurs to develop thier game and completely ignore talent. Have you ever stepped into an mmo world thinking it took 4 years to make, playing through all the content and thinking, if I had 4 years with a fulltime job I can do the entire art in this game to a better quality?
I don't watch sports, so I'll answer that part of your question in terms of the movies and serial television shows I watch. Yes, I choose series for ideology and content as well. For example, I love the 1960s Planet of the Apes series and movies, and hate the 2001 remake, because even though the 2001 movie naturally has vastly better visual effects and such, everything else about it is utter crap IMO. The old series and movies, on the other hand, are proper and delicious science-fiction with interesting concepts and equally interesting stories derived from those concepts.
As for services like phone, television, etc., in some cases I don't have a choice due to limited coverage in the city's-edge suburban area I live in. But generally I choose based on a balance of cost and quality, because 1) these things are more expensive than an MMO, and 2) some of these things are vital services. I need a reliable phone connection if I'm injured and have to call a hospital. An online game's stability or lack thereof plainly isn't in the same league.
EDIT: Now you edited your post too. :P
Edit of the edit: Ah, no you didn't, the page merely auto-positioned atop your new post so I didn't see the one I initially replied to...
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Developers must feel gutted after 4 or so years of developing a whole world to find out its laggy, filled with bugs or simply boring and nobody plays.
Generally speaking, fools and their money part quickly -- those are the people who race out and plunk down money for a game (pre-order or otherwise) without getting the lowdown on the state of it then complain.
But, for some people, paying to play what is considered "unfinished" or "unpolished" isn't an issue. The value they get back from playing is worth more than the headaches to them.
None of these MMOs have the kind of budget GTA IV did (100 million). And they do a lot more.
No PC game can be made bug free due to system differences, and for MMOs add network issues.
No MMO developer wants to release a game with issues. But at some point you have to set a date and ship it out the door or it will never finish, because improvements can always be made.
So most MMOs players are a bit forgiving as far as bugs and network issues go, for the first few weeks.
While I think that some of the OPs examples are a bit on the extreme side (MMOs that are unplayable due to bugs, or do offer extremely poor performance usually sell much less in the longer run), I do agree with the general consensus that many players generally accept a lower standard as far as polishing goes, when dishing out money for early reservation tickets for blockbuster MMOs.
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Kenneth Tarre - Aion Correspondent
The contents of this post do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com and its management.
damian7, judging by the number of your posts, I have to say that you don't do much else then talk about pretty much pointless stuff on mmorpg.com
I do agree with you to some extent, but try making a bugless game (bigger one - not tetris). If you feel that it's not worth giving money to play MMOs (agree with you here as well, for the most MMOs) then just don't. Do something else, there are so many more interesting things to do in life than to play MMOs...
Enjoy.
You're not afraid of the dark, are you?
Good thing I only stick to games I feel are worth the money. The only 2 games I kept a sub for are FFXI and WoW. Still, I will probably stay around for a while when WAR is released even if it is buggy. I've been waiting for that game for so long, it would be stupid to not give it a chance.
It’s called PC gaming. Different hardware, different software running in the background. Mathematically impossibly to test every possible configuration. Not to mention a wide range or graphic, memory, processor speed and sound capabilities.
If you want a bug free experience you are going to have to play a console. That’s just the way is. I thought that was common knowledge?
It is funny I buy a few new games every month.. just not mmorpgs even though I would rather be buying mmorpgs.. but the problem with mmorgs is there is simply not the content I am looking for in them. I prefer to play with massive amounts of players.. but the games they are producing are so lacking of content there isn't much to choose from. I have bought them and been disappointed in them.. they don't have that quality to keep me playing as much as I would like. It isn't even the bugs .. it is the actual content and gameplay that is the bigger issue. They have too many limitaions and not enough player freedoms. I am not one of those that will stick it out if the content is lacking.. I do not believe anyone should lower their standards and accept this "as is" simply because the companies decided to produce crap. The sad thing is I actually have money to spend .. but no where to spend it. I am still waiting for a smart developer to wake up and create the game that has it all...
In the depths of our hearts, Damien7 has expressed exactly the points that we have all wondered. its no surprise that many of the community at large are hesitant to honestly answer the questions put forth as they can't point into words thier feelings towards the staple of what is actually acceptable in terms of what is a fully polished and releasable game/mmo, or, even providable services.
But, with so many mmo's, and games getting released today, its no question that developers are now using tricks into fooling the public into playing half finished or, essentially unacceptable games.
A perfect example of this would be Eve. On release it had many bugs, and, many flaws, as the Devs/GMs took incredible pains to broaden the game, they worked relentlessly on the game to improve it. But, after 5 years, that team has now gotten lazy and careless, releasing very few improvements and actually debassing the community with half hearted attempts at content that doesn't even provide 2 weeks worth of new enjoyment let alone give players faith that the game has even a chance to progress.
And to be honest, of late, I've even seen that the Devs/GMs have almost abandoned logging in to address the player base, let alone even addressing the forum base to upcoming possible directions for this game.
This almost seems to be the beginning of what happened at SWG when that Dev/GM team went to great lengths to add 'New Content' to the game, only to bail at the day of the game upgrade, and fail to listen to the community, and with that, they had a huge backlash which SWG has and never will recover from.
Personally, I buy a game because I like the sound of it. There are so many 'drama-queens' on a site like this that I take most of the comments with a pinch of salt. Only if I, myself, buy a game do I really know if the game is for me.
Once you start playing the game the curiosity takes over and for the first few days I guess you do put up with some crap because you're enjoying trying something new and the 'excitement' makes the problems bareable.
After a week or so, you've got a different problem. You've invested some time in the game, there are things you like and often you want the game to be as good as you think it could be.
If a game is still unreliable I think a lot of people will then think about moving on, but it depends upon what other games they were enjoying (what the competition is) and how much the unreliable game appears to be exactly the perfect game for them.
Suppose for example you really like Westerns. If a Western game came out you'd give it more time because you want it to succeed. You are not necessarily some moronic fanboi; you just know that on paper, at least, the game could be a real interest.
Finally, be aware that games like Vanguard have shown that most people really don't hang around all that long if a game is really buggy.
I also agree with the overall message of the OP, even if I think it is not very, well, diplomatically written.
Let me just take the point of beta testing. A question that always comes up is "do we get a beta perk?" with the answer being "no, you are *allowed* to test the game, see it before release, that is perk enough". Now that just shows how stupid it can get. Of course this system of beta testing presses the devs costs, a lot, but still, arguing that "it's an honor to be in a beta" is a bunch of bullocks, it's just that noone wants to admit to it (me included - AoC was the last beta for me (I think.....)).
And regarding some1s comment about content - now there you have something that really is odd, considering the time put into the developement and the active, constructive feedback of (beta)players, that they don't want Kill 50, gather 100.... and still it ends up in the game. If that ain't weird, I dunno what.
*shrugs*
It's simply us consumers. The cable-tv example by the OP isn't that bad actually. I'd like to add cars to that list. Noone wants or needs a high gasolilne sucking car, but it's cool, and the companies (until now) haven't been doing smaller cars (although they could have), so we just go and buy what they offer and say "it's the way it is, what can I do?"
In my opinion, this thread is nothing about games but the way you want to be able to choose to spend your money wisely as you wish. For example, I am looking for a online game to play then I bought Pirates of Burning Sea but the game glitches everywhere, so you can say I just threw my money to make SOE stronger because people paid the game but their servers are light load. It's how the game distributor ripping money from the market. The only thing we can do is go through all the reviews and make your own judgements before you buy.
Games would be in development for much longer periods of time if you expected perfect. Five years would quickly become 10 years in development...then you would have somethin new to complain about.
Why do you people keep on insisting that techinical issues are the primary reason for launch failures? Personally, I think people will try or stick with a game that is bugged if it's actually fun and engaging. Seems to me, games like Vanguard failed because the game sucked on top of being technical flops.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Dont people pay because it is fun for them? Bottom line?
If a movie stutters in my theater and doesnt in yours, can the movie be more fun for you than for me, is it just not fun? If I a fan of a bad sports team, I still cheer for 'em win, lose or draw, because I enjoy that.
MMO's are exactly the same. Look, I dont care what they promise, I care about what they deliver. If they leave out 20% of what they promise, but I still enjoy what's left, then I'm not wasting money, because I'm still enjoying what I play.
If you specifically come to a game based on a promise of something, and it get's left out, sure you have reason to be upset, and if you spend money still, then maybe you are wasting your coin.
What do you care if someone else enjoys something, and what they spend their money on. Doesnt everyone have the ability to decide for themselves what they enjoy and have fun with?
it's not really a question of what kind of tv series or movie you watch.
whatever you're watching on tv, say all of a sudden, the sound quality just went kaput for five minutes, and then an hour later, the tv just died and it took a few minutes for the cable/satellite to resync and for you to be able to watch your show.
but, pretend it's a show you've never seen before, and you can't tape it or watch it again until reruns come out at the end of the season (which would be a good comparison to you playing an mmo, fighting a boss, the game crapping out and you having to start over in the fight).
would you be pleased with the quality of service that you were paying your cable/satellite provider? now if it did that sort of stuff every day, perhaps the entire time you were trying to watch a show... would you just be "oh, it's ok, i understand, television content is always evolving and i just have to wait a few months for them to work out the bugs."
i can't say that i know of anyone that would be that patient and understanding.
yet, time and again, we see that attitude in the mouths' of consumers of MMOs, which is a form of entertainment which we pay a large up front price and a monthly fee afterwards, just like any other entertainment.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
The whole question of throwing money away is totally subjective and pointless. You can ask and banter away as to the futility of it, but you have to tell yourself this hard, sober truth...It isn't your money to throw away, you didn't get it, work for it, nor have any control over it. As a capitalistic society, throwing money around is the core of its ideology. Unfortunate truth, and logic seldom dictates how it's spent.
I understand your complaint, though technical and lag issues are rather normal in this day and age because of the different systems and networks out there, as some have stated before me. It isn't ethereal, it's a real problem. If a company spends 30M on a game, do you really think they'd not want it to work properly on those levels?
Content and gameplay is another matter altogether, that is all subjective...what one likes another will assuredly dislike. No game can cater to all tastes, so you need to pick and choose what about each game you enjoy and decide whether or not to invest time and money into it.
As for the analogies, although I see your point on the matter, they really aren't apt in comparison. The games are new, not established like most of your examples of what the problem would be. So, new problems can't be looked at like the same way.
If they were all based the same way, we'd be playing the same game all the time, just with different looking toons and environments. Now THAT would be a crime to constantly pay for.
In short, whether anyone wishes to understand before condemning anything, the last question to ask yourself should always be...Bottom line, how does this really affect me? Only then can you justify, to yourself, the actions you take toward that answer.
Back to my hermit cave to ponder the question of which is better, McD or BK...oh the futility of it all!!!
again, i have to ask one of my initial questions -- would you feel that way if you went out today and your cable/satellite was connected, after not having it for months; but it's a new company, so during the first hour of the show you're watching, it was real static-ie for about 10 minutes, you couldn't understand what the actors were saying for about 5 minutes, but only during the show, commercials ran fine.
now, say it kept on doing that; would you be patient for a few weeks? what about a few months? what about six months? this is what gaming companies (and fanbois) seem to expect of us.
what are they doing with tens of millions of dollars? a LOT of these gaming companies boast about their development team, siting all the other games and/or MMOs those team members have been a part of. for the most part, these aren't noob/rookie development teams.
why SHOULD we be forgiving and accepting of the deliverance of subpar gaming experiences? are we getting a discounted rate on the game itself? are we being credited for the time we can't play or the aggravation for fighting with bugs and crashes?
why should we?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
try and make an mmo yourself (or any pc game for that fact) thats runs flawlesly on rlease