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MMORPGs dying or is it the gamers?
zensaber
Member UncommonPosts: 787
ok well i have been quit for some time but i think it is my time to make a really long topic with a "REAL" good point. i have noticed that not very many people are liking the verious new mmorpgs that have been coming out and even i dont like some. but every one i hear HATEs constant levels and want to play for fun instead of having to level for a gillion years. then on the other hand there are the role players who say everything sucks because UO is slowing using its life and need a new game. then there are just the people who like to shout stuff and say every mmorpg sucks and i hate those people execpt the ones who make sence. then there are the gamers that acully play a game longer than a month and dont complain about its flaws and bugs.
ok first every one wanted somthing like DAOC but i little less tred milling then bam there was shadowbane. but then what? people hated it even though it gave exactly what they wanted execpt super graphics witch some gamers will be with me on this and the saying "graphics dont make a game, the content of a game does". I personlly loved shadowbane because the game you didnt have to level forever to have some fun heck i was on a raid when i was like level 10 with like tons of other peeps.
Then the much entisipated FFXI came out, what a peice of crap to me but then whats this????????can it be that everyone that didnt want this kind of game all playing it?????????i played it for about a week and the tredmilling was worse then lineage 2 but at least in lineage 2 you get castle seiges for ur hard work when in FFXI you get some shitty CTF game that probly took like 10 minutes to code and thats after about 2 months of hardcore leveing u ahve to do.
Ulitma online, thats one of the only games that i find alright good gameplay loyal players and still that gaem survies after the much bashing from naggers.
Then every one wanted fast passed action with oiut playing a FPS so poof then comes a revulationary game COH, i myself am even going to purshase this wonder of gaming. but whats this? people still hate it and complaining that all missions are the same and all u do is kill? i rember playing EQ and every other MMO besides a few where all the quests were pretty much the same exept instead of the joy of killing stuff u had to spend hours to diliver some message or crap.
So in closing many people have been saying that MMORPG may be starting to die but i think its mostly no body wants to try the good games or just rather yelll and complaing about them and their faults then play it. It has come to my mind that mybe the gamers are deing to thes gerne of gaming not the games itselfs, yes there has been some games along the way that were not great but dont bring down the others with them. now here is a list of games in catorgies that you may want to try.
For the people that are sucked in by these "naggers" and still dont know what to do, play or join them i say to try the following.
u like fantasy?try asheron's call, sure the game has way dated graphics but have you played?a real great game with loyal players and a great comuinty.
you like full PVP? try shadownbane and dont listen to the people that dont like it they just amke u turn away before even trying, by that i dont mean play for 10 minutes and ive into their naggin ways but get to about level 20 and go out to the real game and join a guild and pvp and kill, have some fun.
like PvP but want some blance? play DAOC the game is byond awsome and when u get bored you go and play RvR for a few hours then go back to leveling quite fun.
Like si fi and full action?play planet side and use the "go to action" button where u are teleported to acttion with like 500+ players going all out at each others and it will be golden.
you like role playing? then play UO great game, dont let the graphics fool you the only best RP game there is out there
and for all other type of games i havnt tried yet when i do ill tell you the real story about the good ones ;-D
Comments
yes pretty much all the new ones are but theres always one thats good but people always badmouth them witch makes me sad and i do not ahve the intrest i did 3 years ago i dont think their dying but i think alot of the gamers are not all but alot. not me though ill play those games that people say suck because they are different reminds me of highschool really rofl
*EDIT* yay i cant wait for Wish looks great but you know the gamers now any click movement people hate for some reason rofl i find that alot fo click movement has a more realtime feel to when i attack
Well actually, MMORPGs themselves are more popular than ever, with more subscribers than ever, worldwide.
You need to realize that forums are a place many people come to to vent their frustrations. There are many people in-game that never bother to read forums, and are perfectly happy with what their playing.
And I think people expect too much. I mean, EQ2 and WoW will never live up the hype, even if those two games are the best games on the market.
And people love to think thier game is the best. This is not just for MMOs, though. Look at Madden and ESPN football. Personally I think ESPN is better, but sure enough there will be someone in this thread claiming why Madden is soooo much better,
There are alot more reasons, but I don't feel like explainging them all. :P
But I'll gaurentee you this, if you don't read forums/reviews about the game you're playing, you'll have alot more fun in it. You'll begin to notice all the little things that you never would've cared about otherwise. Unfortunately, forums are just as addicting as the games though.
I think once I start playing DnL I'll try to stay faaar away from the forums. P
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
yes that is another thing i should have mentioned. over hypes that what kills some games, like shadowbane poor shadowbane could have been greater if people didnt over hype it : ( i feel sad
*sob*
i love shadowbane, and rember when it was released and every one said it sucked because of its lag? well i wasnt into games when EQ first came out but my uncle plays it and he said it was lag happy but that didnt stop thousands of players from playing it, gamers are not what they use to be
yes i do agree with him but the old players are dieing the point of my post was not that MMORPGs were deing but the gamers were deing not real but in soul to mmorpgs and over hyping them and lossing faith in a game because of bugs, lag or dated grahics
I agree, mmos really have a large number of players but EQ2 and WoW will never live up to the hype.
In the end, you'll be doing the same exact thing you've done in other mmos or maybe even less. Of course, both of these games are going to sell a lot of copies and have a lot of subscribers, but I'm not getting sucked in.
I think that some of the players losing interest are the ones that aren't extremely hardcore. Although there are people out there that will bad mouth a game for no reason, maybe even without playing it. There are people out there that won't sleep, go to the bathroom
, or even have a life outside of their room, just so that they can play their mmos and rise their way to the very top. Why, you ask? I think most of them do it for the self satisfaction of being uber.
Of course, not all of us are like that
, but just remember that some are.
Also I think MMOs are going to start moving towards "hook players for a few months, then let 'em go" type of deal, and maybe even entirely eliminate the grind and just have an endgame, based more on skill and not items/levels. Sort of like Planetside. I just don't think many people are willing to spend months of killing mobs anymore.
I remember this was how Nintendo was. I could play for months and months of Super Mario Bros. 3 without getting bored. Hell, if I had a Ninetndo I didn't have to blow in for an hour to get it to work I might still play it.
But then, game after game, I was hooked for less and less time. Now I'm lucky to get a month out of a game like Grand Theft Auto.
Then Motor City Online came along. Again, I played this MMO for months and months. If they didn't shut down the servers, I might still be playing it.
Then, MMO after MMO I was hooked for less and less time. I've just cancelled my CoH account after my free month.
Anyway, thats just my completely wacked-out theory.. which makes little to no sense.
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
I remember my first experience with an mmorpg, it was EQ and I was about 14 15 or somthing. I was full of excitement and fear just to leave the little area outside of the elf town (cant remember name). To the bottom of my heart i never felt that much excitement and immersion in a game before. Same was when i first played DAOC also, but after that I just became a mmo whore and played them all where as now instead of it being this awsome alternative world i can go to it is now just another game.
I think most people are starting now to get this feeling. I feel mmorpgs arnt ment to be made wide spread. What ever it is the genre wont die EVER. I think most games will evolve into this genre. Later RPGs, FPS, ect...
As far as Shadowbane, alot of people just stopped caring after five odd years off hype with nothing to show for it. Then there were the pervasive technical issues, the fact that it didn't turn out to be the bastion of roleplaying many claimed it would.
Yeah, EQ had it's problems at release, but it was in virgin territory at the time, unlike SB.
I don't think MMOs are dying, as a genre. The core community of MMO players is just more savvy than we were 5 years ago. Some things just aren't acceptable anymore. I've said it before, and I'll say it again now. The future of MMOs isn't in gigantic, huge budget games like EQ2 and WoW, but rather in the niche games like A Tale in the Desert, Dark and Light, etc. A big name game like WoW or EQ2 will bring new blood to the playerbase, but eventually, the more hardcore people will end up in the niche games, as the big namers are just to vanilla for their tastes. Even some of the casual players will end up in the niche games, particularly those like ATitD which focus more on cooperation, rather than competition, and don't neccesarily require vast amounts of time played in one sitting to be fun, or too accomplish something.
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I'll disagree with you about something. A tale in the desert has only one thing going for it, the extensive crafting system. Other then that, you get the whiff that all this crafting is for nought, and is going nowhere. Co-operation without competition is BORING. I've talked to some people and about 4 months after playing ATiTD they found out, its really going nowhere. You craft for one reason, to craft for something else, not to beat an army, among other things, etc.
Although I think if you added its crafting system to normal type MMRPG's. It'd be a killer.
But thats another problem, normal MMRPG's are TOO NORMAL. They are almost all a clone of EQ. About the only ones that arent is AC1 and SB, AC1 because it was released at the same time as EQ, and was a niche game, which imo was the best MMRPG i've ever played since. And SB because it as well was a niche game, but the problem being is 1. Lag. 2. It didnt have enough goals. You maxed out soon, and afterwards there wasnt enough special quest to get special items among other things, etc. You get the idea.
MMRPG's need to expand, not give the same crap with better graphics. Another thing is, isntead of adding PvP, they're removing most of it. Think of it, in RTS's, do people play custom made skirmishes the most, or do they play Multiplayer?
Its multiplayer. FPS's, probably the most popular genre out there. Why? PvP content.
People strive on competition. Its alot more thrilling, challenging, and rewarding when you defeat another human being then an AI controlled creature.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
First off, I think people who want to make a long essay type post about something they should either
A: Learn to use proper English writing skills (At least enough to make you look older than Grade 5)
B: Learn to type into a word processor, use Spell and Grammar checks then copy and paste
This is not a flame, just a constructive critisism. You'll find people will acually want to finish reading your post, and comment more if its easy on the eye's to read. And I don't mean it needs to be Uni quality report...
Anyway, on topic here:
I don't think MMORPGs are declining (I mean the players heh) I think its just because that now that they have become so popular, and that so many new ones are out there to choose from (Lots on the way too). The population of MMORPG gamers has be dramatically spred out too fast.
Once upon a time, we were used to only Everquest, and a handful of other MMORPGs to choose from. But now that the genere has grown so fast, the Original MMORPG gamers are being spred thin, and the new gamers arn't appearing as fast as new MMORPGs.
It will take more "Brand Name" MMORPGs to be published to grab a ton of newbie MMORPG gamers. Games such as SWG did it (Star Wars lovers) Matrix Online will probably do it, and even WoW to a degree. All because these games are based on other media that ALOT of people are familiar with.
I've also found (Thanks god) that the ammount of "OmFg I hv 2 pay monthli 4 this gam?" posts are starting to go down, and people are realising what MMORPGs are all about (Monthly fees and all).
So to summerize, lol, I think its just that there are so many MMORPGs games out there now that the communities seem smaller. Hopefully these new "cool looking" games will bring in some fresh recruits to fill up the space.
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Tested: SWG, Sims, EVE, CoH, RO, Darkages, Neocron, AO, Lineage 2, ATITD 2, AC 2
Played: All Above + Shadowbane, FFXI, ATITD, AC, EQ, Misc. Korean Games
Playing: CoH, Gunbound
Waiting for: WoW, MO, EQ2
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Tested: SWG, Sims, EVE, CoH, RO, Darkages, Neocron, AO, Lineage 2, ATITD 2, AC 2, WoW, MxO, LotRO, Armada Online, VsoH
Playing: WoW
Waiting for: StO
i think the one big reason they are dieing is because everyone is just fed up w/ paying for a game they were SO anxious to come out, only to find out it's a piece of Sh!T ... We are all sick of getting our hopes up is all!
I was so anxious for FFXI... BAH!
I am so angry that i wasted so much of my life on that game now.. even though it was only 6 months.. still i only get about 180 of those periods in a life
I want to say i'm anxiously awaiting for either EQ2/WOW/Guild Wars... BUT I don't want to find out i've waisted anothr chunk of my short exsistance.
*i know that video games a just a waste of time anyways but a waste of team that feels memorable/meaninful apposed to one that makes you angry remembering ???
No matter how many people leave the world of mmorpg's behind, other people will be picking up a reduced priced copy or even a free trial to try. That was the way i started on AC, progressing onto Daoc. This game took over my life with heavy stints at the keyboard in preference to seeing the sun during our short summers.
With the advent of buffbots and inclusion of uber loot into daoc, i quit to try SWG, AO, COH and now EVE. None of this games have interested like Daoc did in the past.
To sum my feelings up...
Some will continue playing the same mmorpg with no interest in trying new releases. They continue playing because all they have achieved and online friends they have made.
Some will try every mmorpg released in search of the elusive game that will hold your interest.
If your the sort of person who downloads every free trial i think your addiction and need for a mmorpg is well and truly over....like mine
Pan
Pan
Never say never
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"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I played or tested many MMORPGs (see my signature) and nearly all was not fulfilling my play style.
EQ was great and fun till I hit lvl 51. Then it rendered boring due it was taking too much time for me for just doing something in that game. (I dunno how the game is now.)
DAoC was great too but the level grind was worse than in EQ!
The RvR idea indeed is great but countless hours of mob killing just to join the RvR was sucking.
SB was good in the case of level grinding (it was fast there depend on the server) but the absolutely not restricted PvP and huge lags and bugs turned me away from it.
SWG fas first fun then they nerfed it to oblivion. All my RL friends leaved it short after release.
I left it also as soon I was not able to anything there due several nerfes.
The worst thing happened to HZ. Tho original idea was great! (Skillbased advancement with age as a power level bracket and with Bloodwar if someone want to PvP.) Now see what it was becoming? Levelgrinding like most other MMORPGs. The best thing is the crafting system.
I could advance further on this but I let it now.
To keep it together:
The main issues on the MMORPGs are:
a) Level grinding
b) PvP
c) Crafting system
d) Death penalty system
e) Potential hacking / duping / cheating
f) Powerplayer vs Casual gamers
a) Level grinding: Many MMORPGs use a XP - Level - System to motivate (?!?) players to stay in the game while delaying their reaching of the top levels and the high level content. XPs are accumulated with questing and killing mobs. Due the fact that most mmorpgs are not balancing the mobs well at higher levels (see EQ) and there are tons of kills required of them just for gaining a level and most time you are forced to group, which slows the advancement further. Result is that most time the highlevel content is out of reach for casual player.
Another thing is most MMORPGs are rewarding quests too less. When you quest for 2 hours and just get a reward in XP of 2 mob kills.then it sux! AC2 is the only game where quests are really good rewarding!
b)PvP: While many ppl will find PvP fun others will this not. I left SB due the fact that its PvP system is too free. A true paradise for grievers! The RvR system of DaoC was quite right for me.
I do not add more to this because it was numberless disputed in other forums and topics.
c) Most crafting systems taking tons of time and are a money sink par excellence.
There the same stuff counts like with level grinding. Why to craft the same or similar items hundreds times just to gain a laval in crafting? And another thing is that failures while crafting are complete losses! (Material lost and no XP or skill gain) While in the RL it says we learns from mistakes! The only game giving XP for failures is Ashens Empire.
I hope EQ2 does the crafting right by multistepping the crafting process.
d) I do not dispute this here because there are many threads about this in this forum.
I just assume that the one of EQ was quite harsh while the one of AC2 is a light weight.
e) Hacking Duping and so on are just sucking stuff but if the devs and GMs don't handle these well a game can go down very fast! (See SWG)
f) The powergamer vs casual gamer is already disputed well in this forum. I do just add that several games are indirectly locking casual players out of the highlevel content because they don't have enough time to attend that content.
Conclusion:
A good game for all would be a mixture of SB (leveling speed), DAoC (RvR), HZ or EQ2 (Crafting system) and AC2 (Questing) with the content of EQ1 and the events of HZ.
Alphatesting (!): FreeWorld
:P
Betatesting: A Tale in the Desert 2; 2 unknown games coming soon!
Betatested: AC2; Lords of Everquest; Horizons; Fung Wan Online; Wish; Saga of Ryzom.
Testing: none
Playing: Rubies of Eventide
Retired: EQ; DAoC; SWG; Shadowbane; UO free shards, Ashen Empires; Horizons; AC1; AC2
Attempt to test or play: Darkfall; EQ2; Dark & Light, WoW, Mourning
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I think the blame is 50/50.
Companies jumped on the bandwagon without even having any original ideas and in some cases knowledge on how to make a proper mmorpg.
Players themselves want things easy.Sadly the main factor that made games like EQ and UO great has been lost by players.Been part of the world and adventuring.
For those that were in EQ in 1999/2000 will recall most(in short everyone i knew back then) did not care a damn about levels or gear.Levelling was simply part of the process to get to new areas to adventure.It was purely secondary.
Now folks want instant gratification.Everyone is soooo bothered about levels .I mean look at how many post "this game had a level grind".Why should it bother you if there is always something to do at your level.
I remember when i quit in end of 2001 EQ.We took in this level 60 enhancter.This enchanter i had a chat with.He has barely done more then 2 or 3 quests just to get keys to get to some zones.He does not know a single zone apart from popular levelling zones.Heck he did not even know how to get to kaladim even though it is just a few zones from his starting city(he was a high elf).
Now clearly this is the typical mmorpg player we have now.One so concerned about levels and gear.He missed out so much of the game in his advancement that for someone like me that smelled the roses on my way to 60 i think he missed all the fun.
I never found DAoC or EQ to be a "grind" as many complain.Why?Because i enjoyed every single level in it.In DAoC me and my guild mates did every single (yes thats right) quest opened to our class that we could find.We went to every single spot to hunt(yes even the frontiers and got owned by middies hehe).It was fun all the way thru.
So really we have developers who only think of the $$$ even when they don't have ideas to sell.We have gamers who have lost the meaning of a mmorpg and fun.
Combined - yes,i think mmorpg are dying from this.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If a level based game does not give out some kind of reward that is substantial then it will lose its player base.
Look at Eveonline and Lineage2 for good examples.(yeah i know eve isnt level based.)Both are pvp type games wich is fine.The whole problem though is there is no real reward till later on in the games.
My point is this:Games are developed by companies that dont realize that the majority of gamers who play games have a real life.Most of us have jobs and school to attend to.The last thing we want is another job we have to pay to participate in.
We play games for entertainment.
The more difficult it becomes to level up or accomplish anything the more the player base will shrink.MMO's are a notorious time sink.Grind grind grind grind to next level and do it all over again.
It doesnt matter if you get new skills if the process of getting there is boring.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
i do not think the genra' is dying i do think the customers are becoming more aware of what they will put up with in a mmorpg and the bugs they just will not put up with or severely poor public relations, and or bad customer service
the other issue is churn over rates in some of the older mmorpgs many folks will not leave due to the ammount of friends they made that are still there, there ties to in game goodies and or budies that Stay with what they got
unless the newer mmorpgs in list player loyalty to each other and encouage cooperation the vialbity for long term keeping of players is non existant
sure soloing or group soloing every mob in the game is neat but what if there are little tangelbe rewards and all their friends left??
a community builds a mmorpg no matter how good some folks say a b c mmorpg is if there player base goes yeeky and leave after a short time the community building aspect goes out the window
so i beleive people are what is changing not the new offerings
and folks just will not dedicate time to something new since they mostly "been there done that before"........
the other facet is the aging of the games (and the player base) and getting involved with real life and real people after spending there already in time with uo eq and daoc
there truely is a built in "fun for a while" theme in many mmorpgs.......
MMORPG are better then ever. More choice. More tastes. More of everything.
Customers have developp their tastes however, they are quality customers instead of just been customers.
The first time you eat a type of food you just go WOW this is awesome. After a few meals, you know how you want it to be cooked. MMORPGs are like chain restaurants, and you know how hard it is to developp a chain restaurant compare to a little restaurant alone.
Basics games(non-MMO) are the little singles restaurants. Those are on the decline, but I think their decline have bottomed by now.
It is just that we dont have any will to go to the grocery, thereby you have peoples complaining at McDonald or whatever.
But dont be afraid, a MMORPG will eventually rise and establish a NWO.
They just need to figure how to make a game that please pretty much every type of players, from the Sims, to the RvR type without forgetting the simple soloers, the enjoyable grouper and the lootwhore raiders(okay, you can read my personnal tastes, dont you?). 
Community is irrelevant for a soloer, and secondary to a grouper no matter what they say.
Community only matter for raiders and RvR players. 
You all know someone that still play DiabloII endlessly or Civilization...and there is no community in a single player game unless you have multiple personnalities. 
The main troubles of every MMORPG is they try to please 1 type of player at the expense of the 4 others types(maybe more then 5 types, but 5 that I can see). If you build a game where every player need to do anything that is not what they like, you lose that player pool, as simple as that. You cant ask a Sims player to solo and kill mob any more then you can ask a soloer to go LFG or a raider to raid in a PvP zone if they aint a RvR type of player...and asking a PvPer to level grind in PvE is insane as well. You can only ask each type of player to do what they like...mixting all those 5 types of players into needing to do everyone else activity is a bad idea. It is like putting the liqor in the wet Big Mac tray...Nobody like Coke that way. Where you put the rewards does matter a lot more then what any player will usually admit. Everyone need to be "good" at what they are doing and the best way to improve that should be doing more of it(or better of it), not doing another type of game that have nothing in common with your game that you love so much. How does raiders react when you add levels and AAs? They scream at the insanity! Groupers and soloers leave the game when they realise they now need to raid in order to progress...and so on.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren