Your version of Hardcore / Casual is only baalanced as Raiders vs Everyone else which is NOT what Hardcore generally means. God raiders..can't figure anything out without someone directing them on how to do things.
Please enlighten us as to what gameplay systems you have developed that cater to everyone. All I hear is whining and no solutions.
So if a MMO had hardcore raiding that rewarded players with the best gear, yet you could go out into the wilderness and kill a mob or chop down trees that gave the same rewards, would you be happy? or if the rewards were crap compared to what hard work gives you, would you still complain?
Or do we just do away with all pre-concieved notions of what End game should be and invent something that will only make players want to log on for an hour instead of wasting their lives in front of a monitor?
The addicitive nature of MMO's and promises of great rewards that set you apart from other players is what MMO's are all about. Maybe instead of raiding for 4 hours a night you would have:
"Kill 100,000 Murlocs"
Reward: Tier 6 helm. Or wait grinding is hardcore to. hell questing is hardcore to. Shit anything that takes longer to do than the time I have allotted for gaming is hardcore.
I hope war uses casual as cannon fodder and rewards them with better gear just for dying more than anyone on the battle field. Shut em up somewhow.
Why dont you casual players stop whining and Defend Halaa so us hardcore players can get the World Buff as were grinding Badge Gear? I mean Blizzard went so far as to supply gear that is just as good as most Tier 5 through doing Heroic non-raid dungeons and you still complain. They even removed the attunement quests to enter into any raid dungeon(making it less hardcore) Actually, I should just form all of my statements in non-question form, because I wont get answers to anything, just whining.
Actually if all the raids were designed like Karazahn(10 man - easy mode) everyone would be happier.
If you ask a hardcore raiding guild if they enjoy spending 4-5 hours wiping in a instance to get one piece of loot they will tell you no, but that time and effort into building up your guild to get better gear is what drives them.
Originally posted by XImpalerX MMORPG's will always reward long term players who have put the most time in. Take someone who has practiced guitar 6 hours a day ,7 days a week, for 1 year. Hes hardcore. Take someone who plays guitar 1 hour a day, 2 days a week, 1 year. He's Casual
Assuming both are equally gifted, the hardcore player will progress faster in his training over the casual. Casual says to Hardcore "Hey thats not fair, just because you trained harder than me, doesnt mean you should be better than me. Boo-Hoo." Your right here you go well give you a pass.
I have no problem with people being good because of practice.
I do have a problem with people who are "Raiders" mainly the WoW crowd that think there better than anyone else because they Raid. People that dont pvp that think there good? People that look down on me because I dont devote loads of RL time to something that wont directly improve my quality of life?
Just out of curiosity, what mmos youve played? Seriously played. Which ones were your favortie?
MMORPG's will always reward long term players who have put the most time in.
Take someone who has practiced guitar 6 hours a day ,7 days a week, for 1 year. Hes hardcore.
Take someone who plays guitar 1 hour a day, 2 days a week, 1 year. He's Casual
Assuming both are equally gifted, the hardcore player will progress faster in his training over the casual.
Casual says to Hardcore "Hey thats not fair, just because you trained harder than me, doesnt mean you should be better than me. Boo-Hoo." Your right here you go well give you a pass.
I have no problem with people being good because of practice.
I do have a problem with people who are "Raiders" mainly the WoW crowd that think there better than anyone else because they Raid. People that dont pvp that think there good? People that look down on me because I dont devote loads of RL time to something that wont directly improve my quality of life?
Just out of curiosity, what mmos youve played? Seriously played.
Which ones were your favortie?
Seriously played as in 1 year or more in order EQ, DAoC, Lineage 2, WoW'
I have tested just about every other MMO on the market for months at a time, before uninstalling.
Out of those Lineage 2 was the most hardcore I ever played. And yes when your in the top tier in Lineage 2, you are a walking god. Which is what is lacking from WoW. Everyone is balanced and happy go lucky..wel except the "casual" players.
I guess when you start to get a little older you start to dissect games and see them for what they truly are, instead of when your a kid and a teenager, they are a magical journey for you.
Once the magic out of gaming in your life has come and gone it takes something really special(like when WoW launched) to make you all giddy inside. I honestly wish there wasnt an end game.
Just unlimited character advancement. I like to level up and gain new skills/spells forever.
I hope war uses casual as cannon fodder and rewards them with better gear just for dying more than anyone on the battle field. Shut em up somewhow. Why dont you casual players stop whining and Defend Halaa so us hardcore players can get the World Buff as were grinding Badge Gear? I mean Blizzard went so far as to supply gear that is just as good as most Tier 5 through doing Heroic non-raid dungeons and you still complain.
While I find your constant whining and crying about casuals "whining" somewhat amusing (since it's hardcore raiders who do all the whining and crying), it is amazing how ignorant you are to simple economics. We're supposed to be impressed because you have 6+ hours a day to waste watching youtube videos to see how to down a boss, farm mats and maybe get in 3-4 hours of raiding? You honestly think Blizzard wants to say goodbye to 90% of their customer base because 2 hours or less per day isn't hardcore enough for you?
Try not to min/max so much, people aren't saying, "don't have gear" or "gear shouldn't matter." They're saying don't make daily time invested >>> skill. Casuals don't want handouts, they want to be competitive.
It sounds like you enjoy WoW hopefully you'll stay there, after all the "casuals who enjoy PvP" migrate over to Warhammer you can enjoy your game without us...
I hope war uses casual as cannon fodder and rewards them with better gear just for dying more than anyone on the battle field. Shut em up somewhow. Why dont you casual players stop whining and Defend Halaa so us hardcore players can get the World Buff as were grinding Badge Gear? I mean Blizzard went so far as to supply gear that is just as good as most Tier 5 through doing Heroic non-raid dungeons and you still complain.
While I find your constant whining and crying about casuals "whining" somewhat amusing (since it's hardcore raiders who do all the whining and crying), it is amazing how ignorant you are to simple economics. We're supposed to be impressed because you have 6+ hours a day to waste watching youtube videos to see how to down a boss, farm mats and maybe get in 3-4 hours of raiding? You honestly think Blizzard wants to say goodbye to 90% of their customer base because 2 hours or less per day isn't hardcore enough for you?
Try not to min/max so much, people aren't saying, "don't have gear" or "gear shouldn't matter." They're saying don't make daily time invested >>> skill. Casuals don't want handouts, they want to be competitive.
It sounds like you enjoy WoW hopefully you'll stay there, after all the "casuals who enjoy PvP" migrate over to Warhammer you can enjoy your game without us...
It's amazing how you huys just dont see it.
---World of Warcraft---
Raiding = hardcoreseveral hours a night time invest
Arena = Casual 10 game per week
Battlegrounds = Casualplay as many or as little as you want
Crafting = casualuy all mats on AH375 skill in one day
Leveling =Casual 30% reduction in exp to level from 20-60, neat little icons to show you were all quests are. Rested exp = don't play for days and level up even faster when you do play
5 man instance's Non-HeroicHeroic = CasualTrade in bagdes of honor for gear thats just as good if not better than raid gear.
Daily quests = Casual do as many or as little you want.
So at the end of the showdown its ---Hardcore -1- and Casuals - 6- i think its clear as to who the real winner is. If anything WoW is the most casual friendly mmo on the market atm and your still complaining.
So at the end of the showdown its ---Hardcore -1- and Casuals - 6- i think its clear as to who the real winner is. If anything WoW is the most casual friendly mmo on the market atm and your still complaining.
Who's complaining? All I see in your posts is, "WAAA! Only people who raid should get decent gear. PvP sucks because it's not a scripted encounter I can run over and over and over again week after week and if I don't have gear that is 100x better than everyone else I get pwnd. WAAA!"
So at the end of the showdown its ---Hardcore -1- and Casuals - 6- i think its clear as to who the real winner is. If anything WoW is the most casual friendly mmo on the market atm and your still complaining.
Who's complaining? All I see in your posts is, "WAAA! Only people who raid should get decent gear. PvP sucks because it's not a scripted encounter I can run over and over and over again week after week and if I don't have gear that is 100x better than everyone else I get pwnd. WAAA!"
I've said all i wanted to say. I wont be replying to thistopic anymore.
i do pose this question for the third time in hopes that I can get a straight answer.
"What gameplay systems have you invented/developed that balances casual vs hardcore?
Top tier RvR in WAR will cater to hardcore players.
GS: Aside from the fact that the massively multiplayer audience has matured, and now there is a sizeable population of veterans who might look for a hardcore competitive experience, how will Warhammer Online appeal to beginners and get them to buy into competitive RvR play, beyond the usual experience of getting yelled at by hyperactive 12-year-olds who play competitive games day and night?
MJ: [Laughs.] We've done it right before, and we might, as you say, be seen as a hardcore company that makes hardcore games like Dark Age of Camelot, though of course, for the true hardcore players, we were seen as "Care Bears" compared to the Shadowbanes of the world. On the other hand, our game worked.
What we're hoping to do with the RvR experience, through the multiple ways you can get into RvR, or even the competitive PvE aspects of the game, is get people in from the beginning. Now, this won't be the equivalent of Dark Age of Camelot's open RvR system, where in that game, a 10th-level player who ventured into the frontiers would get his butt kicked time after time by the "gank squads." No, you're not going to have that.
We're going to get players into RvR much more safely in more evenly matched situations where they will not be up against guys who can take advantage of them time and time again. That's something we need, especially in what we're calling the "core RvR rule set." That's what a lot of players want. There is no "one type" of player, as you know. Some like really hardcore PvP environments where you can kill anyone, others like PvP for "realm pride," where you're just fighting for Hibernia or the Empire, or Midgard or the Greenskins, you want to believe in your side and fight for your side. So, we're going to have that as well.
And then there are the players who are scared of RvR because, as you say very astutely, [laughs] sometimes it is the hyperactive 12-year-olds who form these gank squads, or have just played the game constantly so they know every trick, so a lot of these players won't even venture in. What we're trying to do is make it a bit fairer at times to get them in. And then, when they go to true open RvR, or the sacking of cities, they'll have the experience, and I hope they'll lose some of the fear, of RvR. But it's important to keep in mind that Warhammer is being designed [for] even if you don't want to RvR. We've said from the beginning, if you want to PvE your way up from the ground up, you can. There will not be as much content as in RvR, because RvR is a never-ending thing, but there will be plenty. The directive from me in the design from the beginning has always been that any player playing any character class, of any race, should be able to PvE their way up to the top of the system, even if they don't want to engage in RvR. But, we encourage them to. We reward them for it. We give them an environment that's conducive to RvR. And we think that'll go over very well with the entire community.
The only thing I see from this is that no longer will the game be segregated by hardcore/casual, but it is being done so that no matter what stage of progression your at anyone will be effective and helpful to the overall WAR effort, regardless of play style.
Coming right from the Dev team that RvR WILL have MORE content for RvR. Will you be upset when it takes 2-3 hours to take a castle/keep and you dont have the time to devote to kill the king to get the best gear?
Originally posted by XImpalerX The only thing I see from this is that no longer will the game be segregated by hardcore/casual, but it is being done so that no matter what stage of progression your at anyone will be effective and helpful to the overall WAR effort, regardless of play style.
This sounds awesome to me, exactly the style of game I'd like to play.
Coming right from the Dev team that RvR WILL have MORE content for RvR. Will you be upset when it takes 2-3 hours to take a castle/keep and you dont have the time to devote to kill the king to get the best gear?
If it's not instanced I'd hope it would take a lot longer than 2-3 hours, especially considering the end result is one faction losing access to a capital city for a full day. I'd love to see sieges last multiple days. I'd like to log in at night an relieve the group at the front lines. I want epic, epic is not pillar humping in 2v2 for a few hours a week with n in-game (other than epeen) ramifications and epic is certainly not "killing" the same boss every week and having addons tell me I need to move or to "get ready for the next big thing that will wipe the party" or I need to not hit so hard because some big meanie will one-shot me if I hit too hard.
The concept of hardcore is utterly ridiculous to me.
Before I get started, I'll say it, I Used to be a hardcore MMO'er. Two years, down the tubes, nothing but gaming, all the time.
Then I got a life.
I still enjoy MMO's for the simple reason that it's a game you can never beat, thus you get to spend much more time playing and enjoying your self progression then any console game.
With that said, it absolutely slays me that people want to be rewarded for NOT having a life.
"I choose to spend every waking moment I have in your game instead of real life, thus you should treat me better then someone who spends less time here!"
HONESTLY! Why would you EVER be rewarded for neglecting REAL LIFE?! If anything you should be punished!
Now, there are some very touching stories about people with handicaps getting to experience SOME kind of life through MMO's, I'm sympathetic to that.
But unless you have a better reason then "I'm overweight" or "I suffer from social anxiety" I really don't think you should be catered too.
Another whiner with no opinions, no solutions, and no substance to his post. Here's a tip for you, Bind /cry to every key on your keyboard and roll your face across it next time your speaking to me. Seriously though why even post if you cant add anything constructive?
Actually I did. And so did other posters in this and similar threads. In order to earn respect from others you have to show respect as well... by at least acknowledging other peoples opinions and, to put it bluntly, bothering to read them. Which is where you fail.
Your arrogant and elitist stance is leading you nowhere. At least learn to be polite or you'll find yourself yelling at a wall or playing a dying game on an empty server.
On another note.. (and this isn't an attempt to start a flamewar) you might consider playing AoC instead of WAR. The game looks really decent, especially graphics wise and it has some really "hardcore" mechanisms in place... Such as 3 tiers for each dungeon (you have to collect all gear from tier 1 to be capable of taking tier 2 etc) and a heavily guild oriented instanced siege PvP which allows only the top guilds with high PvP ratings to participate at all. This looks like a hard core raiders dream to me which is precisely why I won't be playing it. However I understand that this might appeal to some people and I don't think any less off them because of it. Which is where we differ.
The thing is, in my opinion, the whole "Elite" versus "Casual" thing is an entirely player-created thing. It's only an issue if you make it an issue.
Being elite, it seems to me, is derived from some players' need to feel superior to other players. A guy I know used to (and probably still does) always brag about how much of a god he is in any MMO he plays. And I'd always say "Okay, and let me know when putting that on a resume' lands you a 6-figure income in a Fortune 500 company". I find it *admirable* when someone is really good at a game.. but I'm not gonna stand in awe of them over it.
Someone spends days or weeks camping a mob, repeating a raid or some other activity for a specific drop. Well, now they've just spent all that time for that item... it's gotta mean *something* in the end. Sooo... they start touting it as making them uber, and that if others don't have it, they're not hardcore. Anyone they see without that same gear, they consider a "scrub". Nonsense. It's all self-edifying crap to boost their own needful ego.
What I wish more people would do is learn to see through that crap. What they're really doing is feeding their own need to feel superior and the only way to do that is to talk down to others. It's the time old situation and it happens in real life all the time. There is no real inherent value in what they did - it's a video game.. .a jumble of pixels with some vaporous stats that only matter in the game. They have to give it *some* kind of apparent value.. And unfortunately, many players buy into it and jump on that bandwagon, thus validating the behavior.
A couple others earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head... Until someone else is paying your sub fee.. play however the hell you want. The one who made the "Eat S**t.." comment about others commenting on their gear... Beautifully stated. Couldn't have said it better myself.
The need to be "uber" is perceived... not real. The big give-away is that it's *game*. None of it matters in the real world... or shouldn't anyway.
If you're able to play and enjoy the game with the gear you've gotten as drops, have crafted or have been received as a quest reward... then why should someone else telling you "no, your gear sucks" mean any different?
Case in point... I play FFXI and play a Dragoon. At my level, there are two pieces of upper body gear I could have that are considered "must haves". A Scorpion Harness, which is a craft-only, or an Assault Jerkin which is a random drop from a named mob and has been known to take some people upwards of 3+ days and numerous attempts to get. Now... to me, my time is precious and I do not want to spend hours and hours camping something. Camping anything is boring as hell to me, so I don't do it.
That said... guess which item of the two I mentioned above I *won't* be getting.. or putting forth more than a "well let's see if I get lucky" attempt? Do I care what someone else thinks of it? Nope. My time >>> someone else's perception of "what gear I'm supposed to have". Period. End of discussion. Once again, I pay my sub fee; No one else. And I do quite well enough in the gear I have.
That said, I hate to burst bubbles... but it's not going to be any different in WAR. If it's not the gear... it's going to be something else. Again, the need to be "hardcore" or "uber" is a human thing... all it requires is something in the game to be attached to, and there you go. Suddenly... if you don't do/have whatever it is... you're not "hardcore".
I think people just need to get over it and learn to play the game as *they* enjoy and realize that they're doing it because *they* enjoy it. Don't expect others to do the same, and don't pay attention to those who expect you to do the same.
At the end of the day... You can be "casual" in any game. It's a matter of how you set your expectations. If you come to terms and accept that you're simply not going to progress as quickly as those with more time, or more aggressive playstyles.. but will enjoy the game nonetheless.. Then you're golden, and life is good. Just play the game and have fun and stop comparing your own progress to everyone around you.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
As for the "personal attack" crap you threw sludge first kiddo. "go play COD4" ring any bells?
WAR is not for your kind. You need to stick to WOW. That game is aimed at your type. The ones that need to get off raiding then looking at players not in the latest Tier Gear as lesser players.
I'll go play where skill is determined by performance not by how many DKP points earned for running the same scripted instance.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
I understand the frustration of players who love the concept of MMO's and then those emotions turn sour becuase they cant meet the time requirments to be on equal footing with those who do.
If someone has a system in the works that will please hardcore players and casual players, please share it with us?
In all honesty if you think these Disney attractions called WoW raids are hardcore you have never played a hardcore MMO. Go play lineage 2 to the level cap and then you will see what hardcore really is.
In my opinion, the problem is that the first batch of MMOs, such as Everquest, weren't designed to be hardcore. The players made them hardcore. I highly doubt the developers said, "Ok, we want people to replace going out and doing things away from their computer so that they can run this raid 4 hours a night, 5 to 7 times a week." It's the players that said, "Hey, why don't we run this all the time so we can get these items."
I think the developers of those first few MMOs underestimated the people that would be playing them at the time. Today we have reached a point where MMOs are practically mainstream and the vast majority of players aren't able to, or don't wish to, invest the time to compete with the people that can spend 30+ hours a week in front of their computer.
To me the elitist raider complaining that games aren't hardcore enough for them anymore is similar to the person that no longer likes an underground band once they get a good record deal. "Everyone likes this group now?! They sold out!" It's silly.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
As for the "personal attack" crap you threw sludge first kiddo. "go play COD4" ring any bells?
WAR is not for your kind. You need to stick to WOW. That game is aimed at your type. The ones that need to get off raiding then looking at players not in the latest Tier Gear as lesser players.
I'll go play where skill is determined by performance not by how many DKP points earned for running the same scripted instance.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
I understand the frustration of players who love the concept of MMO's and then those emotions turn sour becuase they cant meet the time requirments to be on equal footing with those who do.
If someone has a system in the works that will please hardcore players and casual players, please share it with us?
In all honesty if you think these Disney attractions called WoW raids are hardcore you have never played a hardcore MMO. Go play lineage 2 to the level cap and then you will see what hardcore really is.
In my opinion, the problem is that the first batch of MMOs, such as Everquest, weren't designed to be hardcore. The players made them hardcore. I highly doubt the developers said, "Ok, we want people to replace going out and doing things away from their computer so that they can run this raid 4 hours a night, 5 to 7 times a week." It's the players that said, "Hey, why don't we run this all the time so we can get these items."
I think the developers of those first few MMOs underestimated the people that would be playing them at the time. Today we have reached a point where MMOs are practically mainstream and the vast majority of players aren't able to, or don't wish to, invest the time to compete with the people that can spend 30+ hours a week in front of their computer.
To me the elitist raider complaining that games aren't hardcore enough for them anymore is similar to the person that no longer likes an underground band once they get a good record deal. "Everyone likes this group now?! They sold out!" It's silly.
I completely agree with Tooky, MMO's more importantly "everquest" for me anyway was my begining. The game for me was great because I could get on and play with my friends whenever, and do whatever. But once WoW came around it became like a new job, you have to be on at so and so to raid with us or you dont get phat lewts. Personally? I dont care about the loot its very annoying to see all the kids in a constant grind fest. Casual gameplay is and should be the focus of major companies not Hardcore gamers. One good reason? Casual players own the MMO genre now. At first with EQ it used to be hardcore gammers but now...since everyone is being integrated into the Genre it has switching to the populace which is Casual. In the end, you should get on your MMO for one reason, to have fun and play with your friends as a piece of entertainment, and not as a job.
Being elite, it seems to me, is derived from some players' need to feel superior to other players. A guy I know used to (and probably still does) always brag about how much of a god he is in any MMO he plays. And I'd always say "Okay, and let me know when putting that on a resume' lands you a 6-figure income in a Fortune 500 company". I find it *admirable* when someone is really good at a game.. but I'm not gonna stand in awe of them over it.
The need to be "uber" is perceived... not real. The big give-away is that it's *game*. None of it matters in the real world... or shouldn't anyway.
Truth.
Hardcore is an euphemism for soemone who says the following: Sure I play this game 30+ hours a week, have no real job nor jobskills. Ohhh Mr. Worker, you may make $90,000 but you have to work over 50+ hours per week do that, DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY CREDITS I MAKE IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME!!!!! Do you have the holly sword of <INSERT MADEUP GOD'S NAME> that gives +302^23 mana regen and +423^23 health plus cloak of invulnerability!! NO?!? I camped this dugeon over 80 hours getting this, now I can defeat <INSERT MADEUP NAME OF UNDEFEATABLE BEAST> myself without help. My guild LOVE ME, they always ask me for help to kill <INSERT NAME OF UNDEFEATABLE BEAST>, I am valuable to people, I AM VALUABLE TO PEPOLE, I AM VALUABLE TO SOCEITY SITTING IN MY BASEMENT!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!
Your version of Hardcore / Casual is only baalanced as Raiders vs Everyone else which is NOT what Hardcore generally means. God raiders..can't figure anything out without someone directing them on how to do things.
Please enlighten us as to what gameplay systems you have developed that cater to everyone. All I hear is whining and no solutions.
So if a MMO had hardcore raiding that rewarded players with the best gear, yet you could go out into the wilderness and kill a mob or chop down trees that gave the same rewards, would you be happy? or if the rewards were crap compared to what hard work gives you, would you still complain?
Or do we just do away with all pre-concieved notions of what End game should be and invent something that will only make players want to log on for an hour instead of wasting their lives in front of a monitor?
The addicitive nature of MMO's and promises of great rewards that set you apart from other players is what MMO's are all about. Maybe instead of raiding for 4 hours a night you would have:
"Kill 100,000 Murlocs"
Reward: Tier 6 helm. Or wait grinding is hardcore to. hell questing is hardcore to. Shit anything that takes longer to do than the time I have allotted for gaming is hardcore.
I hope war uses casual as cannon fodder and rewards them with better gear just for dying more than anyone on the battle field. Shut em up somewhow.
Why dont you casual players stop whining and Defend Halaa so us hardcore players can get the World Buff as were grinding Badge Gear? I mean Blizzard went so far as to supply gear that is just as good as most Tier 5 through doing Heroic non-raid dungeons and you still complain. They even removed the attunement quests to enter into any raid dungeon(making it less hardcore) Actually, I should just form all of my statements in non-question form, because I wont get answers to anything, just whining.
Actually if all the raids were designed like Karazahn(10 man - easy mode) everyone would be happier.
If you ask a hardcore raiding guild if they enjoy spending 4-5 hours wiping in a instance to get one piece of loot they will tell you no, but that time and effort into building up your guild to get better gear is what drives them.
Maybe instead of looking at someone elses items or type of gameplay, you should just worry about what you have and what makes you happy. Should it matter if someone got a similiar item playing casually or raided 4 hrs a day for a week straight if both players enjoyed the process. Both people should be happy that there is content for both players interest. More subs, more money, means game will be around plenty of time for everyone to enjoy. MMos were made to be enjoyable and past the time, its a shame that the communites have the same problems as real life. Suppose to check reality at the door and enjoy yourself when you log in.
Some people are driven by the desire to be "better" than everyone around them.
Exactly ONE such person can experience happiness at any given time.
The rest will spend a lot of time writing lunatic rants on Internet forums about how many guns and/or musical instruments they have touuched in their lifetime.
We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.-Friedrich Nietzsche
The man may have been a sexist prig, but he did make a few fairly good observations. Everyone feels righteous in their own opinion, so I think this topic invariably falls under "Let's agree to disagree and we can all walk away happy."
Which leads to the greater overall problem of designing a game that hand-holds you through everything and gives you rewards regardless of success or failure. Everything is all peaches until you add any amount of challenge, and all of a sudden a player is required to understand something beyond auto-attack. That alone will be one of the worst legacies left by WoW, the massive dumbing down of MMOs. Outside of a much smaller minority, most WoW players expect everything for nothing, and generally get it. Oddly enough, even WoW was not originally as dumbed down as it is right now. The original WoW at release was, believe it or not, actually a bit more challenging. Still by far the easiest MMO out, but not in the state it is now. It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be when that majority tries something with a bit of challenge to it, or will all future MMOs with mass market dreams continue the ‘massive solo online’ trend set by Blizzard? So the easiest most casual MMO in the world is still "hardcore" LOLZ You guys are to funny. Honestly if you dont have time to play MMORPGS dont force some carebear crap down the throats of people who have been supporting all MMO's and giving our money(which was more than enough) before WoW. You casual players are all nubs.
God I miss my vnboards laughing smiley sometimes.
Most MMO's before WoW were not "more challenging". They just generally took longer and were just incredibly more tedious and in some cases simply forced you to group up more to get things done.
Was that more challenging? No.
Also, let's get real here. Before WoW came out the market was pretty much a dying breed. A laughing stock of a market with a few succesful games and a slew of failures that were going nowhere with a stagnant overall playerbase.
There was no obvious potential in the market whatsoever and if WoW hadn't come along developer interest for this market this day would have been marginal *at best*.
People can whine and grime about WoW all day about how it changed *their market* (A ridiculous concept to begin with) into something else but the fact is, it expanded the market greatly and did more for the market than 90% of the other MMO's ever did.
Did it change the market? Overall? Sure. The market has changed and what people expect from the market has changed. Why? Because a lot of newcomers have come in with different expectations than a lot of oldtimers.
Does that mean they killed off our old market? *No*. It appalls me to see so many egotistic people claim the market should be run the way *they* want it because it used to be different. You know what's ridiculous? Expecting millions(10 or so) of people to have the same expectations as a bare 500k people that were here before and for the whole market to adhere to those 500k.
That's not gonna happen. Nor should it. It also doesn't mean those games that those people *still* prefer suddenly died out or something but guess what. They are not the ones that most people like. They are the games that end up with 500k users max, and the ridiculous thing nowadays is that a lot of you people who claim it used to be better are suddenly not satisfied with that either anymore. If it's not the topgame it's not good enough.
Well let's face it. Us oldtimers (and especially you who can't adjust) are a minority compared to todays market and you'll just have to live with it.
Originally posted by Crazybear Unfortunately, I dont believe WAR will eliminate the need to ruin ones real life to be the ultimate Have over the rest of the Have-nots.
I don't see any MMO ever eliminate the timesink part of MMOs. The longer you spend the faster/higher you progress. The longer you spend the more skilled you become at playing the game because you're gaining more knowledge of the game mechanics.
re: WoW This illusion that WoW only caters for the hardcore is wrong. I know plenty of people who still play WoW and are having plenty of fun. They might not be in the bleeding edge 'world first' category of player but they're not too far behind.
I don't see any MMO ever eliminate the timesink part of MMOs. The longer you spend the faster/higher you progress.
I think that's fine, for me the question is can someone be competitive playing only a few hours a night vs someone who plays 6+ hours a day. WoW gear scales through the roof with each set much better than the previous to the point that you aren't really competitive unless you're at the cutting edge. I'd much rather see the big jumps happen early to get people competitive (even if they are still at a bit of a disadvantage), then put the cutting edge 5-10% above the previous tier. If 5-10% isn't enough incentive for people, make the gear look a lot cooler.
I'm a bit confused as to why gear is considered the reward for time investment? The analogy made earlier in regards to musical instruments is completely incorrect in this regards. Just because you play guitar for 10 years 6 hours a day doesn't mean you have the best guitar ever made, it means you should have excellent control over and skill using any guitar.
If you look at it this way, the person that plays an MMO 6+ hours per day for months or years will still have an advantage over a player that only plays 6 hours per week regardless of gear. This is particularly true in a PvP centric game. The "hardcore" player will be familiar with all enemy classes and abilities, they have seen the majority of tactics applied on the battlefield, they know what to do in most situations and they have a ton of practice timing sequences of skills just right to maximize damage and minimize energy consumption. All of these are a really big advantage. Give these same players gear that far exceeds a casual player and the casual player no longer even has a prayer of a chance.
Experience grants skill. The guy who has played guitar his entire life will be better on a crappy guitar than the guy who just started but went out and bought the best guitar available. The same should be seen in MMOs. It is more likely that the experienced player who has put more time in has some marginally better gear, which will help them defeat the newcomers, but it should be their skill and experience of playing the game that determines the victory.
This system allows for the newcomer to eventually be as good as the veterans. There are only so many tactics that can be employed, and one person will eventually see them all, even if they don't play hours every single day. It will just take them considerably longer to get to that point.
WoW's system of gear primary, skill secondary is what upsets a lot of casual gamers. Not only do the hardcore players know what to do in every PvP situation, they also have gear that makes the godly. That's not fun for the majority of players. People are looking for a good time in a hobby. Some people are able to put more time into their hobby, but it doesn't mean the same hobby shouldn't be fun for people that can't.
Anyways, I sort of just rambled on, but I'm pretty sure I made my points. :P
Man I love the people that spout off about EQ having "tough" raids. I've read comments similar to this soooooo many times in this thread. I really wish people could differentiate between an actually difficult encounter...and one which simply requires 500 healers to spam ONE tank while 500 DPS try to kill it. If anything, we Raiding fans should be HERALDING WoW for making great steps to remove the simplicity of the Tank and Spank.
The elitism shown in this thread is a wonderful example of why THIS genre had next to no players before WoW. Who wants to buddy up with that kind of person, really?
Man I love the people that spout off about EQ having "tough" raids. I've read comments similar to this soooooo many times in this thread. I really wish people could differentiate between an actually difficult encounter...and one which simply requires 500 healers to spam ONE tank while 500 DPS try to kill it. If anything, we Raiding fans should be HERALDING WoW for making great steps to remove the simplicity of the Tank and Spank. The elitism shown in this thread is a wonderful example of why THIS genre had next to no players before WoW. Who wants to buddy up with that kind of person, really?
What your thinking of is Everquest 1. In Everquest 2 you had to balance your raid groups out since you could only have a max of 24 people in a raid. They are extremely hard to do and only the most hardcore of guilds can do the top level raids( like Wushi and such). If you had 1 tank and a ton of healers you would wipe easily because the adds would destroy everyone else. Also there is still one raid mob that no one can kill because it is impossible (at least I haven't heard of anyone taking down Nagafen yet)
I don't see any MMO ever eliminate the timesink part of MMOs. The longer you spend the faster/higher you progress. The longer you spend the more skilled you become at playing the game because you're gaining more knowledge of the game mechanics.
I'd like to clear up a misconception about the term "timesink."
Merely spending time in the game does not qualify as a timesink, within the context of gaming. In the context of real life, yes, but that is not the focus of most discussions on these boards.
A gaming timesink is a mechanism whose obvious purpose is to make the player wait around, inactive, for no reason other than to increase the amount of time it takes him/her to level up. The inactivity here is the key. If you are active, you are considered to be playing -- and therefore entertained -- so you are not wasting time in a gameplay sense.
Thus "timesink" can refer to:
Excessive downtime required to regen mana or health
Long waits for rare spawns of monsters needed for quests
Long waits for necessary in-game services such as boats
Crafting systems where each combine takes a certain amount of time with no player input
"Timesink" does not apply to:
Steep XP curves or slow level gains
Rare drops of items that are not strictly needed to advance the game
Games with a wide variety of activities that keep you playing because there is so much to do
God I hate casual players, they just play for half an hour and want all MMOs changed to their likings.
It's more like we have lives and cannot dedicated 4 hours a night to "raiding". Been there, done that got the tshirt.
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.
God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
I don't understand how a 5 hr dungeon requires more intelligence than a 1 hr one...
And besides, I have nothing against 5 or 15 or 25 hr dungeons, just as long as I am able to a) actually see them and b) get some kind of reward if i only play one hour there.
And in addition, sometimes I put in at least as much time into a game as your average no-lifer. However I want to spend this time playing and having fun, rather than grinding for raid supplies or playing guild politics to get a spot in a raid. Been there done that but now I'm too old for that crap.
I'm sure that the ratio of time played vs time having fun in my raiding guild was approximately 3:1 or even 4:1. I had to f***ing work in order to have a shot at maybe having some fun. Never again. Never!
Comments
Please enlighten us as to what gameplay systems you have developed that cater to everyone. All I hear is whining and no solutions.
So if a MMO had hardcore raiding that rewarded players with the best gear, yet you could go out into the wilderness and kill a mob or chop down trees that gave the same rewards, would you be happy? or if the rewards were crap compared to what hard work gives you, would you still complain?
Or do we just do away with all pre-concieved notions of what End game should be and invent something that will only make players want to log on for an hour instead of wasting their lives in front of a monitor?
The addicitive nature of MMO's and promises of great rewards that set you apart from other players is what MMO's are all about. Maybe instead of raiding for 4 hours a night you would have:
"Kill 100,000 Murlocs"
Reward: Tier 6 helm. Or wait grinding is hardcore to. hell questing is hardcore to. Shit anything that takes longer to do than the time I have allotted for gaming is hardcore.
I hope war uses casual as cannon fodder and rewards them with better gear just for dying more than anyone on the battle field. Shut em up somewhow.
Why dont you casual players stop whining and Defend Halaa so us hardcore players can get the World Buff as were grinding Badge Gear? I mean Blizzard went so far as to supply gear that is just as good as most Tier 5 through doing Heroic non-raid dungeons and you still complain. They even removed the attunement quests to enter into any raid dungeon(making it less hardcore) Actually, I should just form all of my statements in non-question form, because I wont get answers to anything, just whining.
Actually if all the raids were designed like Karazahn(10 man - easy mode) everyone would be happier.
If you ask a hardcore raiding guild if they enjoy spending 4-5 hours wiping in a instance to get one piece of loot they will tell you no, but that time and effort into building up your guild to get better gear is what drives them.
I have no problem with people being good because of practice.
I do have a problem with people who are "Raiders" mainly the WoW crowd that think there better than anyone else because they Raid. People that dont pvp that think there good? People that look down on me because I dont devote loads of RL time to something that wont directly improve my quality of life?
Just out of curiosity, what mmos youve played? Seriously played.
Which ones were your favortie?
I have no problem with people being good because of practice.
I do have a problem with people who are "Raiders" mainly the WoW crowd that think there better than anyone else because they Raid. People that dont pvp that think there good? People that look down on me because I dont devote loads of RL time to something that wont directly improve my quality of life?
Just out of curiosity, what mmos youve played? Seriously played.
Which ones were your favortie?
Seriously played as in 1 year or more in order EQ, DAoC, Lineage 2, WoW'
I have tested just about every other MMO on the market for months at a time, before uninstalling.
Out of those Lineage 2 was the most hardcore I ever played. And yes when your in the top tier in Lineage 2, you are a walking god. Which is what is lacking from WoW. Everyone is balanced and happy go lucky..wel except the "casual" players.
I guess when you start to get a little older you start to dissect games and see them for what they truly are, instead of when your a kid and a teenager, they are a magical journey for you.
Once the magic out of gaming in your life has come and gone it takes something really special(like when WoW launched) to make you all giddy inside. I honestly wish there wasnt an end game.
Just unlimited character advancement. I like to level up and gain new skills/spells forever.
While I find your constant whining and crying about casuals "whining" somewhat amusing (since it's hardcore raiders who do all the whining and crying), it is amazing how ignorant you are to simple economics. We're supposed to be impressed because you have 6+ hours a day to waste watching youtube videos to see how to down a boss, farm mats and maybe get in 3-4 hours of raiding? You honestly think Blizzard wants to say goodbye to 90% of their customer base because 2 hours or less per day isn't hardcore enough for you?
Try not to min/max so much, people aren't saying, "don't have gear" or "gear shouldn't matter." They're saying don't make daily time invested >>> skill. Casuals don't want handouts, they want to be competitive.
It sounds like you enjoy WoW hopefully you'll stay there, after all the "casuals who enjoy PvP" migrate over to Warhammer you can enjoy your game without us...
While I find your constant whining and crying about casuals "whining" somewhat amusing (since it's hardcore raiders who do all the whining and crying), it is amazing how ignorant you are to simple economics. We're supposed to be impressed because you have 6+ hours a day to waste watching youtube videos to see how to down a boss, farm mats and maybe get in 3-4 hours of raiding? You honestly think Blizzard wants to say goodbye to 90% of their customer base because 2 hours or less per day isn't hardcore enough for you?
Try not to min/max so much, people aren't saying, "don't have gear" or "gear shouldn't matter." They're saying don't make daily time invested >>> skill. Casuals don't want handouts, they want to be competitive.
It sounds like you enjoy WoW hopefully you'll stay there, after all the "casuals who enjoy PvP" migrate over to Warhammer you can enjoy your game without us...
It's amazing how you huys just dont see it.
---World of Warcraft---
Raiding = hardcoreseveral hours a night time invest
Arena = Casual 10 game per week
Battlegrounds = Casualplay as many or as little as you want
Crafting = casualuy all mats on AH375 skill in one day
Leveling =Casual 30% reduction in exp to level from 20-60, neat little icons to show you were all quests are. Rested exp = don't play for days and level up even faster when you do play
5 man instance's Non-HeroicHeroic = CasualTrade in bagdes of honor for gear thats just as good if not better than raid gear.
Daily quests = Casual do as many or as little you want.
So at the end of the showdown its ---Hardcore -1- and Casuals - 6- i think its clear as to who the real winner is. If anything WoW is the most casual friendly mmo on the market atm and your still complaining.
Who's complaining? All I see in your posts is, "WAAA! Only people who raid should get decent gear. PvP sucks because it's not a scripted encounter I can run over and over and over again week after week and if I don't have gear that is 100x better than everyone else I get pwnd. WAAA!"
Who's complaining? All I see in your posts is, "WAAA! Only people who raid should get decent gear. PvP sucks because it's not a scripted encounter I can run over and over and over again week after week and if I don't have gear that is 100x better than everyone else I get pwnd. WAAA!"
I've said all i wanted to say. I wont be replying to thistopic anymore.
i do pose this question for the third time in hopes that I can get a straight answer.
"What gameplay systems have you invented/developed that balances casual vs hardcore?
Top tier RvR in WAR will cater to hardcore players.
GS: Aside from the fact that the massively multiplayer audience has matured, and now there is a sizeable population of veterans who might look for a hardcore competitive experience, how will Warhammer Online appeal to beginners and get them to buy into competitive RvR play, beyond the usual experience of getting yelled at by hyperactive 12-year-olds who play competitive games day and night?
MJ: [Laughs.] We've done it right before, and we might, as you say, be seen as a hardcore company that makes hardcore games like Dark Age of Camelot, though of course, for the true hardcore players, we were seen as "Care Bears" compared to the Shadowbanes of the world. On the other hand, our game worked.
What we're hoping to do with the RvR experience, through the multiple ways you can get into RvR, or even the competitive PvE aspects of the game, is get people in from the beginning. Now, this won't be the equivalent of Dark Age of Camelot's open RvR system, where in that game, a 10th-level player who ventured into the frontiers would get his butt kicked time after time by the "gank squads." No, you're not going to have that.
We're going to get players into RvR much more safely in more evenly matched situations where they will not be up against guys who can take advantage of them time and time again. That's something we need, especially in what we're calling the "core RvR rule set." That's what a lot of players want. There is no "one type" of player, as you know. Some like really hardcore PvP environments where you can kill anyone, others like PvP for "realm pride," where you're just fighting for Hibernia or the Empire, or Midgard or the Greenskins, you want to believe in your side and fight for your side. So, we're going to have that as well.
And then there are the players who are scared of RvR because, as you say very astutely, [laughs] sometimes it is the hyperactive 12-year-olds who form these gank squads, or have just played the game constantly so they know every trick, so a lot of these players won't even venture in. What we're trying to do is make it a bit fairer at times to get them in. And then, when they go to true open RvR, or the sacking of cities, they'll have the experience, and I hope they'll lose some of the fear, of RvR. But it's important to keep in mind that Warhammer is being designed [for] even if you don't want to RvR. We've said from the beginning, if you want to PvE your way up from the ground up, you can. There will not be as much content as in RvR, because RvR is a never-ending thing, but there will be plenty. The directive from me in the design from the beginning has always been that any player playing any character class, of any race, should be able to PvE their way up to the top of the system, even if they don't want to engage in RvR. But, we encourage them to. We reward them for it. We give them an environment that's conducive to RvR. And we think that'll go over very well with the entire community.
The only thing I see from this is that no longer will the game be segregated by hardcore/casual, but it is being done so that no matter what stage of progression your at anyone will be effective and helpful to the overall WAR effort, regardless of play style.
Coming right from the Dev team that RvR WILL have MORE content for RvR. Will you be upset when it takes 2-3 hours to take a castle/keep and you dont have the time to devote to kill the king to get the best gear?
This sounds awesome to me, exactly the style of game I'd like to play.
If it's not instanced I'd hope it would take a lot longer than 2-3 hours, especially considering the end result is one faction losing access to a capital city for a full day. I'd love to see sieges last multiple days. I'd like to log in at night an relieve the group at the front lines. I want epic, epic is not pillar humping in 2v2 for a few hours a week with n in-game (other than epeen) ramifications and epic is certainly not "killing" the same boss every week and having addons tell me I need to move or to "get ready for the next big thing that will wipe the party" or I need to not hit so hard because some big meanie will one-shot me if I hit too hard.
The concept of hardcore is utterly ridiculous to me.
Before I get started, I'll say it, I Used to be a hardcore MMO'er. Two years, down the tubes, nothing but gaming, all the time.
Then I got a life.
I still enjoy MMO's for the simple reason that it's a game you can never beat, thus you get to spend much more time playing and enjoying your self progression then any console game.
With that said, it absolutely slays me that people want to be rewarded for NOT having a life.
"I choose to spend every waking moment I have in your game instead of real life, thus you should treat me better then someone who spends less time here!"
HONESTLY! Why would you EVER be rewarded for neglecting REAL LIFE?! If anything you should be punished!
Now, there are some very touching stories about people with handicaps getting to experience SOME kind of life through MMO's, I'm sympathetic to that.
But unless you have a better reason then "I'm overweight" or "I suffer from social anxiety" I really don't think you should be catered too.
At best you should be pitied.
Flame on!
Actually I did. And so did other posters in this and similar threads. In order to earn respect from others you have to show respect as well... by at least acknowledging other peoples opinions and, to put it bluntly, bothering to read them. Which is where you fail.
Your arrogant and elitist stance is leading you nowhere. At least learn to be polite or you'll find yourself yelling at a wall or playing a dying game on an empty server.
On another note.. (and this isn't an attempt to start a flamewar) you might consider playing AoC instead of WAR. The game looks really decent, especially graphics wise and it has some really "hardcore" mechanisms in place... Such as 3 tiers for each dungeon (you have to collect all gear from tier 1 to be capable of taking tier 2 etc) and a heavily guild oriented instanced siege PvP which allows only the top guilds with high PvP ratings to participate at all. This looks like a hard core raiders dream to me which is precisely why I won't be playing it. However I understand that this might appeal to some people and I don't think any less off them because of it. Which is where we differ.
The thing is, in my opinion, the whole "Elite" versus "Casual" thing is an entirely player-created thing. It's only an issue if you make it an issue.
Being elite, it seems to me, is derived from some players' need to feel superior to other players. A guy I know used to (and probably still does) always brag about how much of a god he is in any MMO he plays. And I'd always say "Okay, and let me know when putting that on a resume' lands you a 6-figure income in a Fortune 500 company". I find it *admirable* when someone is really good at a game.. but I'm not gonna stand in awe of them over it.
Someone spends days or weeks camping a mob, repeating a raid or some other activity for a specific drop. Well, now they've just spent all that time for that item... it's gotta mean *something* in the end. Sooo... they start touting it as making them uber, and that if others don't have it, they're not hardcore. Anyone they see without that same gear, they consider a "scrub". Nonsense. It's all self-edifying crap to boost their own needful ego.
What I wish more people would do is learn to see through that crap. What they're really doing is feeding their own need to feel superior and the only way to do that is to talk down to others. It's the time old situation and it happens in real life all the time. There is no real inherent value in what they did - it's a video game.. .a jumble of pixels with some vaporous stats that only matter in the game. They have to give it *some* kind of apparent value.. And unfortunately, many players buy into it and jump on that bandwagon, thus validating the behavior.
A couple others earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head... Until someone else is paying your sub fee.. play however the hell you want. The one who made the "Eat S**t.." comment about others commenting on their gear... Beautifully stated. Couldn't have said it better myself.
The need to be "uber" is perceived... not real. The big give-away is that it's *game*. None of it matters in the real world... or shouldn't anyway.
If you're able to play and enjoy the game with the gear you've gotten as drops, have crafted or have been received as a quest reward... then why should someone else telling you "no, your gear sucks" mean any different?
Case in point... I play FFXI and play a Dragoon. At my level, there are two pieces of upper body gear I could have that are considered "must haves". A Scorpion Harness, which is a craft-only, or an Assault Jerkin which is a random drop from a named mob and has been known to take some people upwards of 3+ days and numerous attempts to get. Now... to me, my time is precious and I do not want to spend hours and hours camping something. Camping anything is boring as hell to me, so I don't do it.
That said... guess which item of the two I mentioned above I *won't* be getting.. or putting forth more than a "well let's see if I get lucky" attempt? Do I care what someone else thinks of it? Nope. My time >>> someone else's perception of "what gear I'm supposed to have". Period. End of discussion. Once again, I pay my sub fee; No one else. And I do quite well enough in the gear I have.
That said, I hate to burst bubbles... but it's not going to be any different in WAR. If it's not the gear... it's going to be something else. Again, the need to be "hardcore" or "uber" is a human thing... all it requires is something in the game to be attached to, and there you go. Suddenly... if you don't do/have whatever it is... you're not "hardcore".
I think people just need to get over it and learn to play the game as *they* enjoy and realize that they're doing it because *they* enjoy it. Don't expect others to do the same, and don't pay attention to those who expect you to do the same.
At the end of the day... You can be "casual" in any game. It's a matter of how you set your expectations. If you come to terms and accept that you're simply not going to progress as quickly as those with more time, or more aggressive playstyles.. but will enjoy the game nonetheless.. Then you're golden, and life is good. Just play the game and have fun and stop comparing your own progress to everyone around you.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
I understand the frustration of players who love the concept of MMO's and then those emotions turn sour becuase they cant meet the time requirments to be on equal footing with those who do.
If someone has a system in the works that will please hardcore players and casual players, please share it with us?
In all honesty if you think these Disney attractions called WoW raids are hardcore you have never played a hardcore MMO. Go play lineage 2 to the level cap and then you will see what hardcore really is.
In my opinion, the problem is that the first batch of MMOs, such as Everquest, weren't designed to be hardcore. The players made them hardcore. I highly doubt the developers said, "Ok, we want people to replace going out and doing things away from their computer so that they can run this raid 4 hours a night, 5 to 7 times a week." It's the players that said, "Hey, why don't we run this all the time so we can get these items."
I think the developers of those first few MMOs underestimated the people that would be playing them at the time. Today we have reached a point where MMOs are practically mainstream and the vast majority of players aren't able to, or don't wish to, invest the time to compete with the people that can spend 30+ hours a week in front of their computer.
To me the elitist raider complaining that games aren't hardcore enough for them anymore is similar to the person that no longer likes an underground band once they get a good record deal. "Everyone likes this group now?! They sold out!" It's silly.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Let's drop WoW for 1 minute and take a look at other MMO's
Everquest = hardcore
Everquest 2 = hardcore
Lineage = hardcore
Lineage 2 = hardcore
Rangnarok = hardcore
SWG = hardcore
FFXI = hardcore
RF Online = hardcore
Second Life = hardcore
Ultima Online = hardcore
games I dont know anything about but judge them to be Casual
LOTRO = casual
Guild Wars = Casual
Tabula Rasa = Casual
Vanguard = Casual
Fury = Casual
Dark Age of Camelot(in its current form) = casual
COH/COV = casual
Why dont you quit wow and play Guild Wars or LOTRO? MMO's have always been games played by people seeking to replace real life. Console games have always been geared to casual/friendly play. It is the recent birthing of console/casual pc gamers from WoW that this debate stems from.
Is it to hard of a concept to grasp that the "Since the beggining of MMO's" players shun the idea of making MMO's catered to casual players? just as much as casual players shunning what is the standard? The argument is felt the same from both sides. You can never expect the greatest rewads and accomplishments in anything to be awarded to people who invest the smallest amount of time.
I understand the frustration of players who love the concept of MMO's and then those emotions turn sour becuase they cant meet the time requirments to be on equal footing with those who do.
If someone has a system in the works that will please hardcore players and casual players, please share it with us?
In all honesty if you think these Disney attractions called WoW raids are hardcore you have never played a hardcore MMO. Go play lineage 2 to the level cap and then you will see what hardcore really is.
In my opinion, the problem is that the first batch of MMOs, such as Everquest, weren't designed to be hardcore. The players made them hardcore. I highly doubt the developers said, "Ok, we want people to replace going out and doing things away from their computer so that they can run this raid 4 hours a night, 5 to 7 times a week." It's the players that said, "Hey, why don't we run this all the time so we can get these items."
I think the developers of those first few MMOs underestimated the people that would be playing them at the time. Today we have reached a point where MMOs are practically mainstream and the vast majority of players aren't able to, or don't wish to, invest the time to compete with the people that can spend 30+ hours a week in front of their computer.
To me the elitist raider complaining that games aren't hardcore enough for them anymore is similar to the person that no longer likes an underground band once they get a good record deal. "Everyone likes this group now?! They sold out!" It's silly.
I completely agree with Tooky, MMO's more importantly "everquest" for me anyway was my begining. The game for me was great because I could get on and play with my friends whenever, and do whatever. But once WoW came around it became like a new job, you have to be on at so and so to raid with us or you dont get phat lewts. Personally? I dont care about the loot its very annoying to see all the kids in a constant grind fest. Casual gameplay is and should be the focus of major companies not Hardcore gamers. One good reason? Casual players own the MMO genre now. At first with EQ it used to be hardcore gammers but now...since everyone is being integrated into the Genre it has switching to the populace which is Casual. In the end, you should get on your MMO for one reason, to have fun and play with your friends as a piece of entertainment, and not as a job.
Truth.
Hardcore is an euphemism for soemone who says the following: Sure I play this game 30+ hours a week, have no real job nor jobskills. Ohhh Mr. Worker, you may make $90,000 but you have to work over 50+ hours per week do that, DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY CREDITS I MAKE IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME!!!!! Do you have the holly sword of <INSERT MADEUP GOD'S NAME> that gives +302^23 mana regen and +423^23 health plus cloak of invulnerability!! NO?!? I camped this dugeon over 80 hours getting this, now I can defeat <INSERT MADEUP NAME OF UNDEFEATABLE BEAST> myself without help. My guild LOVE ME, they always ask me for help to kill <INSERT NAME OF UNDEFEATABLE BEAST>, I am valuable to people, I AM VALUABLE TO PEPOLE, I AM VALUABLE TO SOCEITY SITTING IN MY BASEMENT!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!
Please enlighten us as to what gameplay systems you have developed that cater to everyone. All I hear is whining and no solutions.
So if a MMO had hardcore raiding that rewarded players with the best gear, yet you could go out into the wilderness and kill a mob or chop down trees that gave the same rewards, would you be happy? or if the rewards were crap compared to what hard work gives you, would you still complain?
Or do we just do away with all pre-concieved notions of what End game should be and invent something that will only make players want to log on for an hour instead of wasting their lives in front of a monitor?
The addicitive nature of MMO's and promises of great rewards that set you apart from other players is what MMO's are all about. Maybe instead of raiding for 4 hours a night you would have:
"Kill 100,000 Murlocs"
Reward: Tier 6 helm. Or wait grinding is hardcore to. hell questing is hardcore to. Shit anything that takes longer to do than the time I have allotted for gaming is hardcore.
I hope war uses casual as cannon fodder and rewards them with better gear just for dying more than anyone on the battle field. Shut em up somewhow.
Why dont you casual players stop whining and Defend Halaa so us hardcore players can get the World Buff as were grinding Badge Gear? I mean Blizzard went so far as to supply gear that is just as good as most Tier 5 through doing Heroic non-raid dungeons and you still complain. They even removed the attunement quests to enter into any raid dungeon(making it less hardcore) Actually, I should just form all of my statements in non-question form, because I wont get answers to anything, just whining.
Actually if all the raids were designed like Karazahn(10 man - easy mode) everyone would be happier.
If you ask a hardcore raiding guild if they enjoy spending 4-5 hours wiping in a instance to get one piece of loot they will tell you no, but that time and effort into building up your guild to get better gear is what drives them.
Maybe instead of looking at someone elses items or type of gameplay, you should just worry about what you have and what makes you happy. Should it matter if someone got a similiar item playing casually or raided 4 hrs a day for a week straight if both players enjoyed the process. Both people should be happy that there is content for both players interest. More subs, more money, means game will be around plenty of time for everyone to enjoy. MMos were made to be enjoyable and past the time, its a shame that the communites have the same problems as real life. Suppose to check reality at the door and enjoy yourself when you log in.
Some people are driven by the desire to be "better" than everyone around them.
Exactly ONE such person can experience happiness at any given time.
The rest will spend a lot of time writing lunatic rants on Internet forums about how many guns and/or musical instruments they have touuched in their lifetime.
We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us. - Friedrich Nietzsche
The man may have been a sexist prig, but he did make a few fairly good observations. Everyone feels righteous in their own opinion, so I think this topic invariably falls under "Let's agree to disagree and we can all walk away happy."
It's a trick... Get an axe!
God I miss my vnboards laughing smiley sometimes.
Most MMO's before WoW were not "more challenging". They just generally took longer and were just incredibly more tedious and in some cases simply forced you to group up more to get things done.
Was that more challenging? No.
Also, let's get real here. Before WoW came out the market was pretty much a dying breed. A laughing stock of a market with a few succesful games and a slew of failures that were going nowhere with a stagnant overall playerbase.
There was no obvious potential in the market whatsoever and if WoW hadn't come along developer interest for this market this day would have been marginal *at best*.
People can whine and grime about WoW all day about how it changed *their market* (A ridiculous concept to begin with) into something else but the fact is, it expanded the market greatly and did more for the market than 90% of the other MMO's ever did.
Did it change the market? Overall? Sure. The market has changed and what people expect from the market has changed. Why? Because a lot of newcomers have come in with different expectations than a lot of oldtimers.
Does that mean they killed off our old market? *No*. It appalls me to see so many egotistic people claim the market should be run the way *they* want it because it used to be different. You know what's ridiculous? Expecting millions(10 or so) of people to have the same expectations as a bare 500k people that were here before and for the whole market to adhere to those 500k.
That's not gonna happen. Nor should it. It also doesn't mean those games that those people *still* prefer suddenly died out or something but guess what. They are not the ones that most people like. They are the games that end up with 500k users max, and the ridiculous thing nowadays is that a lot of you people who claim it used to be better are suddenly not satisfied with that either anymore. If it's not the topgame it's not good enough.
Well let's face it. Us oldtimers (and especially you who can't adjust) are a minority compared to todays market and you'll just have to live with it.
re: WoW
This illusion that WoW only caters for the hardcore is wrong. I know plenty of people who still play WoW and are having plenty of fun. They might not be in the bleeding edge 'world first' category of player but they're not too far behind.
I think that's fine, for me the question is can someone be competitive playing only a few hours a night vs someone who plays 6+ hours a day. WoW gear scales through the roof with each set much better than the previous to the point that you aren't really competitive unless you're at the cutting edge. I'd much rather see the big jumps happen early to get people competitive (even if they are still at a bit of a disadvantage), then put the cutting edge 5-10% above the previous tier. If 5-10% isn't enough incentive for people, make the gear look a lot cooler.
I'm a bit confused as to why gear is considered the reward for time investment? The analogy made earlier in regards to musical instruments is completely incorrect in this regards. Just because you play guitar for 10 years 6 hours a day doesn't mean you have the best guitar ever made, it means you should have excellent control over and skill using any guitar.
If you look at it this way, the person that plays an MMO 6+ hours per day for months or years will still have an advantage over a player that only plays 6 hours per week regardless of gear. This is particularly true in a PvP centric game. The "hardcore" player will be familiar with all enemy classes and abilities, they have seen the majority of tactics applied on the battlefield, they know what to do in most situations and they have a ton of practice timing sequences of skills just right to maximize damage and minimize energy consumption. All of these are a really big advantage. Give these same players gear that far exceeds a casual player and the casual player no longer even has a prayer of a chance.
Experience grants skill. The guy who has played guitar his entire life will be better on a crappy guitar than the guy who just started but went out and bought the best guitar available. The same should be seen in MMOs. It is more likely that the experienced player who has put more time in has some marginally better gear, which will help them defeat the newcomers, but it should be their skill and experience of playing the game that determines the victory.
This system allows for the newcomer to eventually be as good as the veterans. There are only so many tactics that can be employed, and one person will eventually see them all, even if they don't play hours every single day. It will just take them considerably longer to get to that point.
WoW's system of gear primary, skill secondary is what upsets a lot of casual gamers. Not only do the hardcore players know what to do in every PvP situation, they also have gear that makes the godly. That's not fun for the majority of players. People are looking for a good time in a hobby. Some people are able to put more time into their hobby, but it doesn't mean the same hobby shouldn't be fun for people that can't.
Anyways, I sort of just rambled on, but I'm pretty sure I made my points. :P
Gear /= skill. Time played should = skill.
Man I love the people that spout off about EQ having "tough" raids. I've read comments similar to this soooooo many times in this thread. I really wish people could differentiate between an actually difficult encounter...and one which simply requires 500 healers to spam ONE tank while 500 DPS try to kill it. If anything, we Raiding fans should be HERALDING WoW for making great steps to remove the simplicity of the Tank and Spank.
The elitism shown in this thread is a wonderful example of why THIS genre had next to no players before WoW. Who wants to buddy up with that kind of person, really?
What your thinking of is Everquest 1. In Everquest 2 you had to balance your raid groups out since you could only have a max of 24 people in a raid. They are extremely hard to do and only the most hardcore of guilds can do the top level raids( like Wushi and such). If you had 1 tank and a ton of healers you would wipe easily because the adds would destroy everyone else. Also there is still one raid mob that no one can kill because it is impossible (at least I haven't heard of anyone taking down Nagafen yet)
Deviant Art: http://ramenninja.deviantart.com/
MMOs Played: EverQuest 1 and 2, Ryzom, Horizons/Istaria, Planetside (BFRs ruined it), WoW, GuildWars, CoH/CoV, Lineage 2, FFXI, Random free MMOs
Merely spending time in the game does not qualify as a timesink, within the context of gaming. In the context of real life, yes, but that is not the focus of most discussions on these boards.
A gaming timesink is a mechanism whose obvious purpose is to make the player wait around, inactive, for no reason other than to increase the amount of time it takes him/her to level up. The inactivity here is the key. If you are active, you are considered to be playing -- and therefore entertained -- so you are not wasting time in a gameplay sense.
Thus "timesink" can refer to:
"Timesink" does not apply to:
I want to have FUN, not work for something.
I know I know... have heard this one thousand times...
I really don't get what's your problem...
You'll still get the coolest trophies and the best gear to pwn us married "kiddies" with full time jobs. However there won't be any content that we're locked out of and since the majority of it doesnt have player limits attached you'll welcome us as cannon fodder at least.
IMO your leet hardcore uberness has no point unless you got us poor sods to compare it to.
Everybody wins!
My problem is, I want dungeons where a group has to spend 5 hours to finish, something epic. Not a 1 hour dungeon. With you, people that want a whole MMO just to play one hour during two days a week, developers have to dumb down everything just to accomodate to your oh so busy lifes.God, to play 2 hours a week, do you really need an MMO? go play Guitar Hero or something.
I don't understand how a 5 hr dungeon requires more intelligence than a 1 hr one...
And besides, I have nothing against 5 or 15 or 25 hr dungeons, just as long as I am able to a) actually see them and b) get some kind of reward if i only play one hour there.
And in addition, sometimes I put in at least as much time into a game as your average no-lifer. However I want to spend this time playing and having fun, rather than grinding for raid supplies or playing guild politics to get a spot in a raid. Been there done that but now I'm too old for that crap.
I'm sure that the ratio of time played vs time having fun in my raiding guild was approximately 3:1 or even 4:1. I had to f***ing work in order to have a shot at maybe having some fun. Never again. Never!
Intelligence? who talked about intelligence?