Sigh... Ok. Imagine you are in a real war. OK? You are a grunt in a war. Not a general or a superhero one-man-army. You are a grunt. A soldier. There is a frontline. There are various objectives on that frontline and they all have to be held. But you are just you. You are just one guy. You are not a general. You are a soldier. There is just one of you among the thousands. You cannot hold all the objectives. Because you are just one guy. However there are other guys around you. You can take one objective while other guys take other objectives. So you make a choice which objective you take. Your side wins. After a while the war starts again. You are still one guy, among the thousands. Now you get another choice which objective to take. See? In addition you don't have to take objectives and hold them to contribute to the effort or get promotions and medals which are your true goal. You can guard the rear. You can peel potatoes or drive a truck. You can write humorous anecdotes for Stars and Stripes. Or you can say "I want to fight in the other war" and get moved there. This is as far as possible from kill boss in dungeon A so I can kill boss in dungeon B and finally in dungeon C and then say "I've beaten the game now what" or "I'm stuck at dungeon B and I'm seething with frustration because I can't get to dungeon C and there is nothing else meaningful for me to do". If you want a PvP equivalent of this crap just substitute dungeons with arena ratings.
Lol, see, you're looking at it from the personal perspective. From the grunt.
Take WoW AV. It's the perfect example for this. Actually, it's not, since in AV you're not forced to do everything to take the endboss but let's assume it's roughly similar and you do.
Yes I can be in the back defending instead of attacking or vice versa but in the end the way the war is won will happen exactly the same, the only difference is that you didn't participate in every part of it.
*skipping* content is no different than saying WoW dungeons aren't linear because I only did phase 1 and then I did another dungeon in the meantime and came back for Phase 4. Wooo see, it's not linear at all.
That's nonsense.
I don't care how you feel, as a grunt, that the game is not linear. it is, especially if there are no choices in the way the WAR advances. In the end, and that's how people will look at it eventually, there is only take A take B take C and then D.
PvP always adds dynamics, I'm not arguing that, I'm also not arguing that you can't do PvE or PvP or whatever in order to help the WAR effort *however* if you want to advance the war Objectives A will always have to be reached to get to objective B and so on. So if you advance to the next zone you will *always* know exactly what has to happen. You will *have* to take that keep, you will *have* to win that scenario x times to advance the war. (You as in Order or destruction). You can't decide to take a bridge instead of a keep and advance through there rather than the other objective.
I don't care if that's not true on a one person level. That's why I said it's a birds eye view. If you can't fathom that then this discussion is meaningless and you have no basis to argue with me on it.
Ofc I'm taking it from a personal perspective of my toon. What other perspective should I be taking?
The perspective of my toon is my "focus level" - this is the level at which I actually play the game.
I don't play the game at the level of generals, those are the meta portions of the game that have influence on me and that I can influence but they are not on my focus level. We can go arguing if this setup with three parallel tug-of-war fronts will turn out to be repetetive and predictable on the strategic level or not (and I'd say they wont) but that is not the focus level of the game.
Let me repeat what seems obvious to me: You are not playing at the level of a general and your true goal is not to win the siege. This is a context in which you pursue your own goals. In Warhammer war is not "the game" - it is an environment in which the game takes place.
Being a grunt your goal is not to "win the war" - this is the job for the highest generals. Your goals are to accomplish tasks given by your officers and to get promotions and medals.
Ofc I'm taking it from a personal perspective of my toon. What other perspective should I be taking? The perspective of my toon is my "focus level" - this is the level at which I actually play the game. I don't play the game at the level of generals, those are the meta portions of the game that have influence on me and that I can influence but they are not on my focus level. We can go arguing if this setup with three parallel tug-of-war fronts will turn out to be repetetive and predictable on the strategic level or not (and I'd say they wont) but that is not the focus level of the game. Let me repeat what seems obvious to me: You are not playing at the level of a general and your true goal is not to win the siege. This is a context in which you pursue your own goals. In Warhammer war is not "the game" - it is an environment in which the game takes place. Being a grunt your goal is not to "win the war" - this is the job for the highest generals. Your goals are to accomplish tasks given by your officers and to get promotions and medals.
Then your point has nothing to do with what I was discussing or whether the game is linear or not.
*Every* game where others can do progress in your absence is non linear once you take it to a personal level. That's a pointless argument when you're talking about linear design on a Strategic level, which you obviously weren't talking about and is the exact reverse of what you were stating above (way above).
Do you like delivering things to NPCs from other NPCs? Do you like searching, investigating, finding, X for NPC Y? Do you like to collect # of X for NPC Y? Do you enjoy killing # of X for NPC Y? If you answered yes then you will enjoy PvE in WAR or you could save yourself the cost of a box and get ANY other MMORPG on the market. I suggest WoW at least it has blood splatter in it.
Wtf you talking about?
What about:
- Public Quests
- Open dungeons
- PvP Dungeons
- Tome of knowledge unlocks
- Lairs
.. all contributing to the global RvR effort?
oh.. I remember, those do not matter because "WAR is a WoW clone" and damn those pesky facts to hell.
Public Quests - Do you know what those public quests amount to? What I mean is: what do you do in order to complete them? What is an EA Mythic example of a RvR PvE public quest?
Open dungeons - no arguement here there are PvE dungeons that will grant you tier 1 gear, but will you get invited to the sexy parties when everyone else is wearing tier 2 and 3 from PvPing? Is the PvE king encounter going to doable with a guy in tier1 or is he going to be treated like an univited guest who is already drunk and has puked on himself?
PvP Dungeons - Look at the freakin name of this damn thread and ask yourself WTF did you even list this for?
Tome of Knowlegde - No argument here their ToK is very innovative and well worth paying 15 dollars a month for, especially when you are locked out of major sections of it because you don't like to PvP.
Lairs - An area to explore and quest in...what kind of quests? hmmmm...none of the kinds I listed i'm sure.
Picture this markoraos:
EA Mythic announces that all the PvP and RvR aspects are removed from Warhammer online. Is it still worth paying 50 dollars for a box and 15 dollars a month to play this game as it would be or are there better PvE games out on the market?
Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing. Moreover that it is done as a kind of an afterthought with no innovation whatsoever.
I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion.
As for whether WAR can be a "better" PvE game than games that are exclusively PvE, I dont know and I cannot know until we see the game.
What I can see from all the info availaible is that WAR devs spent rather more time actually thinking on how to innovate and improve PvE gameplay than any other MMORPG in recent memory and that includes exclusively PvE ones. I cannot recall any MMORPG that contains so many new PvE game concepts and playing modes.
Just to be clear here is a public quest example that I just found:
The public quest that we saw involved things that greenskins love, such as beer and killing those pesky dwarves. There are actually several parts to this public quest, but the goal is to eventually get a friendly giant to smash open the gate to a dwarven stronghold so that you can deal with its defenders. However, the giant has problems of his own because he's being attacked by waves of creatures. So the first part of the public quest is to kill about 40 or 50 of the things before time runs out. That sounds like a daunting number, but because it's a public quest, you'll have help in the form of other players.
Remember this: Do you enjoy killing # of X for NPC Y?
Successfully completing the first stage of this quest leads to the next problem. The giant is thirsty and wants a drink. Thankfully, there are kegs of beer littered around the place. Again, you need to pick up and deliver a certain number of the kegs to the giant in a limited amount of time. But this isn't an easy beer run because the kegs are defended by various creatures, which you'll have to battle. Again, because there can be many of you in this public quest, the task is doable.
Remember this: Do you like searching, investigating, finding, X for NPC Y? and Do you like to collect # of X for NPC Y?
If you manage to get the giant his beer, he'll get back up and destroy the gate to the dwarven fortress. That brings about the third and final stage of the public quest: killing the defenders. They make things easier for you by sallying out of the fortress in formation, and lines of defenders will rush over the fortress drawbridge to attack you. Each line is tougher than the one before it, so this results in a prolonged melee. To win, you have to wipe out all the dwarves, including the mighty dwarven hero. It's easiest to gang up against him because he can inflict some serious hurt on you if you go against him on your own.
Are these quests not just your standard type quests? Oh sure, It's a timed event (always so much fun ) and it calls for a group effort which Mythic is to be applauded for (any excuse to group in a MMORPG is good) but at the end it's still just the standard fare.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Ofc I'm taking it from a personal perspective of my toon. What other perspective should I be taking? The perspective of my toon is my "focus level" - this is the level at which I actually play the game. I don't play the game at the level of generals, those are the meta portions of the game that have influence on me and that I can influence but they are not on my focus level. We can go arguing if this setup with three parallel tug-of-war fronts will turn out to be repetetive and predictable on the strategic level or not (and I'd say they wont) but that is not the focus level of the game. Let me repeat what seems obvious to me: You are not playing at the level of a general and your true goal is not to win the siege. This is a context in which you pursue your own goals. In Warhammer war is not "the game" - it is an environment in which the game takes place. Being a grunt your goal is not to "win the war" - this is the job for the highest generals. Your goals are to accomplish tasks given by your officers and to get promotions and medals.
Then your point has nothing to do with what I was discussing or whether the game is linear or not.
*Every* game where others can do progress in your absence is non linear once you take it to a personal level. That's a pointless argument when you're talking about linear design on a Strategic level, which you obviously weren't talking about and is the exact reverse of what you were stating above (way above).
Lol, confusion ensues.
Anyway, what makes the game unpredictable and non linear is that what other players do in your absence actually has a very real and substantial impact on your own game.
This is not something that is really common in MMOPRGS. So far this has been the exclusive province of sandbox MMOs and now here comes a game that is clearly not a sandbox and yet has a world that is heavily influenced by player action. I find this really revolutionary and exciting, much more than "next-gen" graphics or new ways to mash those tired old keys.
As for unpredictability and non-linearity on the strategic level. I purposefully avoided this part of the argument since I felt it's not the true subject of the discussion. However, you wouldn't let go. So here it is:
The battlefront is not a simple tug of war that you win or loose by simple pushing in one direction.
- winning or loosing is determined by victory points
- keeps give flat victory points to their owner's faction
- battlefield objectives give smaller amount of VPs but they influence the situation on the battlefield (giving buffs, decreasing/increasing numbers of keep guards etc)
- scenarios and quests give a constant stream of VPs.
- Tier 3 zone gives additional VPs to the side holding it. The chicken rule does not apply there so it is a part of the T4 battlefront. This gives a second spatial dimension to the strategic map of a single battlefront.
So, there are various strategies for achieving the VP threshold required for zone control. You do not have to take all keeps in order to conquer a zone. You can send elite guilds to scenarios to grind up VPs fast while you hold your keep. You can rush the T3 zone to get the trickle up VPs. You can go for all keeps and objectives in the zone as a surprise attack since these are flat VPs that don't trickle in.
Then add into the equation the fact that there are three battlefronts in different states, including the capitals development levels (a fact that you find irrelevant for some reason). The amount of choices at any given time now explode. There is a L3 capital that you can take now but you'll get considerably less rewards than that L5 capital which is better defended. What do you do? Or are you going to try a feint at that L3 to draw L5 defenders away? etc, etc...
Factor in your own individual agendas. You can take Ork capital easily but you really want that piece of gear that is found only in Chaos capital which is better defended. In addition your own capital is threatened and it will hurt your guild if it is taken. What do you do now?
No, this is not take A, take B, take C rinse and repeat. Not by a very very long shot.
Do you like delivering things to NPCs from other NPCs? Do you like searching, investigating, finding, X for NPC Y? Do you like to collect # of X for NPC Y? Do you enjoy killing # of X for NPC Y? If you answered yes then you will enjoy PvE in WAR or you could save yourself the cost of a box and get ANY other MMORPG on the market. I suggest WoW at least it has blood splatter in it.
Wtf you talking about?
What about:
- Public Quests
- Open dungeons
- PvP Dungeons
- Tome of knowledge unlocks
- Lairs
.. all contributing to the global RvR effort?
oh.. I remember, those do not matter because "WAR is a WoW clone" and damn those pesky facts to hell.
Public Quests - Do you know what those public quests amount to? What I mean is: what do you do in order to complete them? What is an EA Mythic example of a RvR PvE public quest?
Open dungeons - no arguement here there are PvE dungeons that will grant you tier 1 gear, but will you get invited to the sexy parties when everyone else is wearing tier 2 and 3 from PvPing? Is the PvE king encounter going to doable with a guy in tier1 or is he going to be treated like an univited guest who is already drunk and has puked on himself?
PvP Dungeons - Look at the freakin name of this damn thread and ask yourself WTF did you even list this for?
Tome of Knowlegde - No argument here their ToK is very innovative and well worth paying 15 dollars a month for, especially when you are locked out of major sections of it because you don't like to PvP.
Lairs - An area to explore and quest in...what kind of quests? hmmmm...none of the kinds I listed i'm sure.
Picture this markoraos:
EA Mythic announces that all the PvP and RvR aspects are removed from Warhammer online. Is it still worth paying 50 dollars for a box and 15 dollars a month to play this game as it would be or are there better PvE games out on the market?
Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing. Moreover that it is done as a kind of an afterthought with no innovation whatsoever.
I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion.
As for whether WAR can be a "better" PvE game than games that are exclusively PvE, I dont know and I cannot know until we see the game.
What I can see from all the info availaible is that WAR devs spent rather more time actually thinking on how to innovate and improve PvE gameplay than any other MMORPG in recent memory and that includes exclusively PvE ones. I cannot recall any MMORPG that contains so many new PvE game concepts and playing modes.
Just to be clear here is a public quest example that I just found:
The public quest that we saw involved things that greenskins love, such as beer and killing those pesky dwarves. There are actually several parts to this public quest, but the goal is to eventually get a friendly giant to smash open the gate to a dwarven stronghold so that you can deal with its defenders. However, the giant has problems of his own because he's being attacked by waves of creatures. So the first part of the public quest is to kill about 40 or 50 of the things before time runs out. That sounds like a daunting number, but because it's a public quest, you'll have help in the form of other players.
Remember this: Do you enjoy killing # of X for NPC Y?
Successfully completing the first stage of this quest leads to the next problem. The giant is thirsty and wants a drink. Thankfully, there are kegs of beer littered around the place. Again, you need to pick up and deliver a certain number of the kegs to the giant in a limited amount of time. But this isn't an easy beer run because the kegs are defended by various creatures, which you'll have to battle. Again, because there can be many of you in this public quest, the task is doable.
Remember this: Do you like searching, investigating, finding, X for NPC Y? and Do you like to collect # of X for NPC Y?
If you manage to get the giant his beer, he'll get back up and destroy the gate to the dwarven fortress. That brings about the third and final stage of the public quest: killing the defenders. They make things easier for you by sallying out of the fortress in formation, and lines of defenders will rush over the fortress drawbridge to attack you. Each line is tougher than the one before it, so this results in a prolonged melee. To win, you have to wipe out all the dwarves, including the mighty dwarven hero. It's easiest to gang up against him because he can inflict some serious hurt on you if you go against him on your own.
Are these quests not just your standard type quests? Oh sure, It's a timed event (always so much fun ) and it calls for a group effort which Mythic is to be applauded for (any excuse to group in a MMORPG is good) but at the end it's still just the standard fare.
This is ridiculous.
So I suppose for a PvE gameplay type to be truly innovative it shouldn't involve killing mobs? Just stop and think here. What? Player versus environment SHOULDN'T involve killing mobs?
What are you talking about?
Public Quests are designed as a grinders paradise. They are made to to give some sense and purpose to grinding. Some people like to grind all the time. Most people like to grind at least some of the time. PQs are a gameplay mode that improves and works on the grinding aspect of MMOs and as such they are absolutely original.
If you completely abhor grinding mobs then fine - the game has a lot of other things to offer. Go do dungeons or keep sieges or scenarios or exploration quests or whatever. The point is that there is that one aspect of MMORPGS and it was improved by an original mechanic.
...
/to other post
as for the "purpose of war". The IP is all about genocidal racial wars to extermination. This is not "All quiet on the western front"-online or "War and peace"-online. Warhammer is a brutal, ironic, galgen-humor parody of "classical" fantasy.
In addition if there is a historical war that Warhammer draws inspiration from then this would be the thirty-years war. And it was a genocidal war of total extermination and of such bestiality that would make WWII nazi atrocities seem like Hello Kitty online.
Almost half of Germany and central Europe was killed in the most up-close-and-personal ways imaginable. Usually tortured to death to be more precise. Entire cities were crucified or broken on the rack, every man woman child and dog - yes even dogs were tortured because they were the "wrong dogs". Whole huge regions were completely depopulated and it took almost 150 years for central Europe to recover the population and economy levels it had before the war begun. And this is what Empire is based on. Wars can be fantastically vicious and irrational things.
The OP asked if this game was worth playing if he doesn't like to PvP.
I pointed out that PvE in this game is standard to the PvE in all MMORPGs and that he should save 50 dollars for the box and just play one of those.
Here you stepped in and said "Wtf you talking about?" and listed a bunch of stuff that most PvE MMORPGs have; I went on to point out that if you don't play PvP you should save money and play another game.
Then you said "Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing." Blah blah blah "I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion."
I searched for an example of a public quest and found that it was pretty much "standard fare questing"
Then you said "So I suppose for a PvE gameplay type to be truly innovative it shouldn't involve killing mobs? Just stop and think here. What? Player versus environment SHOULDN'T involve killing mobs?" This is something I should of asked you when you said "Wtf you talking about?" but you were not ready for it then So i'll ask it now - what were you expecting in the way of PvE quests aside from those I listed in my original post?
If "/to other post" was directed at me I'll have to ask you to read that post again and put it in its proper context before you reply to it. Good effort though.
To the OP save 50 dollars and play one of the other MMORPGs out there - PvE is pretty standard. If you really must play WAR then wait till it's free trial time.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
WAR has PvE and does provide a lot of innovation and stream-lining. However it's not like it's revolutionizing PvE - basic concepts of questing, killing X number of mobs, fetching so and so items etc. remains mostly the same. The thing that makes WAR less attractive for a pure PvE'er than say, WoW, is that WAR will not be adding loads of raid dungeons, so if you only do PvE, you'll run out of content in WAR a lot quicker than you would in WoW.
The OP asked if this game was worth playing if he doesn't like to PvP.
I pointed out that PvE in this game is standard to the PvE in all MMORPGs and that he should save 50 dollars for the box and just play one of those.
Here you stepped in and said "Wtf you talking about?" and listed a bunch of stuff that most PvE MMORPGs have; I went on to point out that if you don't play PvP you should save money and play another game.
Then you said "Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing." Blah blah blah "I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion."
I searched for an example of a public quest and found that it was pretty much "standard fare questing"
Then you said "So I suppose for a PvE gameplay type to be truly innovative it shouldn't involve killing mobs? Just stop and think here. What? Player versus environment SHOULDN'T involve killing mobs?" This is something I should of asked you when you said "Wtf you talking about?" but you were not ready for it then So i'll ask it now - what were you expecting in the way of PvE quests aside from those I listed in my original post?
If "/to other post" was directed at me I'll have to ask you to read that post again and put it in its proper context before you reply to it. Good effort though.
To the OP save 50 dollars and play one of the other MMORPGs out there - PvE is pretty standard. If you really must play WAR then wait till it's free trial time.
Sigh..
Your main argument was that WAR does not bring anything new to PvE gameplay and that the OP can find all WAR PvE features in already existing games.
I think I proved it quite conclusively with examples that this is not the case.
I am really, really sorry but if Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge are nothing new to you then I really have to ask you to inform the general public where have you seen these features implemented before.
And no, I don't buy your argument that any kind of gameplay that involves killing mobs is "more of the same". I'm sorry but I really don't.
I'm asking you what would a PvE game mode have to be like to satisfy your standards of originality? You can't kill mobs because there's been mob killing in games before. You can't have quest givers because everybody has them. You can't carry stuff around or explore because it's "been done before". What is left I ask you?
This is like saying that nothing new or original happened with space sim games since the original Spacewar in the 60's because you were shooting other spaceships there - just like in all the following space sim games. I suppose EvE online is a clone of Spacewar as well - "Shooting ships in space, same old, same old..."
You may say that WAR won't have as much PvE as some PvE-centered games. For example there won't be any huge instanced raid dungeons (except that single (times six) conditional one which is being tested right now).
However you cannot say that everything found in WAR PvE can be found in other games because it is simply and demonstrably not true. If you manage to find Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge in some other game I will publicly admit that I am an ignorant moron and that you are the boss of me.
However you cannot say that everything found in WAR PvE can be found in other games because it is simply and demonstrably not true. If you manage to find Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge in some other game I will publicly admit that I am an ignorant moron and that you are the boss of me.
Tabula Rasa's control point system is a public quest system.
1/2 of the tomb of knowledge is the Xbox 360 Achievement system and the other half is pretty common stuff found in many MMORPGs.
You can call me Mr. Wickersham from now on and i will call you Philip. Now go fetch me my slippers Philip, chop chop; then fluff my pillow and then massage my feet. I hope you have a strong back, Philip, because I intend to have you pull me around in a small cart.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
However you cannot say that everything found in WAR PvE can be found in other games because it is simply and demonstrably not true. If you manage to find Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge in some other game I will publicly admit that I am an ignorant moron and that you are the boss of me.
Tabula Rasa's control point system is a public quest system.
1/2 of the tomb of knowledge is the Xbox 360 Achievement system and the other half is pretty common stuff found in many MMORPGs.
You can call me Mr. Wickersham from now on and i will call you Philip. Now go fetch me my slippers Philip, chop chop; then fluff my pillow and then massage my feet. I hope you have a strong back, Philip, because I intend to have you pull me around in a small cart.
Public quest and tome of knowledge is names trademarket by EA-Mythich. You can't find the "names" in any other game.
its part of the 3 things (RvR is the third) where mythic claims to be innovative and bring something new to the standard MMO concept.
It's yet to be seen if mythic is succesfull in really being innovative or they are realy leaning on something that is done before, unless you are in beta.
I don't think that you two can settle the argument without breaking NDA
Most likely only people in beta can give you the answer you are looking for. However, they aren't allowed to yet. The question I would ask myself is, "Does it look good enough to shell out $50 to give it a try?", since that's really the only way to know if you personally will enjoy the game.
The question I would ask myself is "are they going to have a free trial so I can see if I like what I look like while I'm getting my arms shoved up my bum by a high level newbie hater?"....just a thought
Alright, listen very closely. WAR is an RVR game, not a PVP game nor a PVE game. Got it?
Save your breathe...there are far too many new-gen players that have never experience or played RvR or think they have in something that wasn't DAoC! Until they get to play RvR and see just how much better and different it is than your standard PvP outing most of them aren't going to understand it!
The question I would ask myself is "are they going to have a free trial so I can see if I like what I look like while I'm getting my arms shoved up my bum by a high level newbie hater?"....just a thought
Obviously you haven't seen or read anything about Warhammer. The situation you just described CAN NOT happen in WAR. The world is separated into 4 tiers. Tier 1= 1-10, tier 2= 11-20, tier 3- 21-30 and tier 4- 31-40. If someone goes down a tier and attacks people they are turned into a chicken. If you can somehow figure out a way to get killed by a chicken... well you have bigger problems. Again, this game is about RvR, not just ganking.
Most likely only people in beta can give you the answer you are looking for. However, they aren't allowed to yet. The question I would ask myself is, "Does it look good enough to shell out $50 to give it a try?", since that's really the only way to know if you personally will enjoy the game.
The question I would ask myself is "are they going to have a free trial so I can see if I like what I look like while I'm getting my arms shoved up my bum by a high level newbie hater?"....just a thought
Free Trials only happen with MMOs that are failures or just really old. You're going to have a LONG wait, because WAR is not going to be a failure.
To put it in the simplest terms: RvR is SOCIAL PvP. In otherwords, you attack and defend as a realm rather than for simple selfish reasons like you see in WoW Arenas. I call WoW pvp "treadmill pvp." It's fun in the beginning, but then it just gets repetitive. RvR is more lasting. RvR IS PvP. The difference is that Arenas focus on more single player pvp (yes.. I consider 6 on 6 single player since you can pretty much do the same in any single player game out there that you don't have to pay a subscirption for) whereas with WAR you're talking about 100s vs. 100s trying to take meaningful things like Keeps, bridges, arsenals, etc. (all planned for WAR).
Blizzard basically panicked when people were getting into mass warfare early on because their servers just couldn't handle it. The game wasn't designed from the bottom up to handle mass people on the battlefield like Daoc. So they invented Battlegrounds (Arenas now) with HUGE and easier rewards which basically sucked all the energy out of the world pvp. WoW's pve is still open world, but the people who spend all their time pvping in instances and Arenas are getting suckered as far as I'm concerned. You can do the same in any single player shooter type game over the internet. A waste of $15 a month, if you ask me.
Alright, listen very closely. WAR is an RVR game, not a PVP game nor a PVE game. Got it?
Save your breathe...there are far too many new-gen players that have never experience or played RvR or think they have in something that wasn't DAoC! Until they get to play RvR and see just how much better and different it is than your standard PvP outing most of them aren't going to understand it!
agreed all the new gamers that have come into MMOs over the past years has put a damper on the overall community and forums as a whole
RvR while some may not see the difference (and most cant that have not played DAoC) those that know what RvR is and is about..for those that don't think of it in this was PVP in most MMos is ether about the PERSON or the TEAM (that you have for that point in time) RvR is about the REALM or FACTION as a whole...
sure i didn't save my breath but hey i can always get another one
However you cannot say that everything found in WAR PvE can be found in other games because it is simply and demonstrably not true. If you manage to find Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge in some other game I will publicly admit that I am an ignorant moron and that you are the boss of me.
Tabula Rasa's control point system is a public quest system.
1/2 of the tomb of knowledge is the Xbox 360 Achievement system and the other half is pretty common stuff found in many MMORPGs.
You can call me Mr. Wickersham from now on and i will call you Philip. Now go fetch me my slippers Philip, chop chop; then fluff my pillow and then massage my feet. I hope you have a strong back, Philip, because I intend to have you pull me around in a small cart.
Hi Wicky, I think you'll have to find someone else to massage your rather large feet.
TR's control point system is NOT PQs. While they're both PvE events that is right where similarities end because there is slew of differences.
One, your very own example of the WAR PQ shows that tasks within a PQ are much more varied than waves of mobs attacking your control point. A TR control point assault may be considered a type of a PQ but PQs are much much more.
Two. The rewards system in PQs is light years away from TR one - read it up. While this new "prestige" TR introduced a few months ago (quite some time after Mythic announced their "influence") might seem similar, the rewards are distributed in a completely different manner (the "Vegas" system) that dictates a different playing style.
Three. PQ's are always started by players. Their function is quite different from TR control point thing. A PQ is a "grind enhancement" feature - you start grinding some mobs and weird and interesting things start happening. It is not just "attack or defend a spot on the ground from waves of mobs"
I concur the basic similarities of the two systems but calling them equal is plainly false.
As for Tome of Knowledge (not "Tomb of Knowledge" ffs) being a slight variation of XBox360 achievement system don't make me laugh. Your profile in Xbox (or whatever it's called) is not your RPG character. You don't get new skills or items for your character with it. You do not get information unlocks etc. I'm really sorry but this is a plain case of "EvE is a Spacewar clone".
In addition even you admit that it is an unique amalgamate of stuff already found in other games. Ofc large parts of it are and why shouldn't it be so? I'm sorry but if you build a house from bricks which everyone else use it doesn't mean that the house is a "copy" of all the other houses, and especially if you are using combinations of materials that no one else uses. Your standards of originality are completely irrational - ofc games, like any other creative endeavor, build on the achievements of predecessors.
99% of originality is finding a new combination or pre-existing features that through a synergistic process become a new feature. Both PQs and Tome of Knowledge satisfy this definition completely.
Comments
Lol, see, you're looking at it from the personal perspective. From the grunt.
Take WoW AV. It's the perfect example for this. Actually, it's not, since in AV you're not forced to do everything to take the endboss but let's assume it's roughly similar and you do.
Yes I can be in the back defending instead of attacking or vice versa but in the end the way the war is won will happen exactly the same, the only difference is that you didn't participate in every part of it.
*skipping* content is no different than saying WoW dungeons aren't linear because I only did phase 1 and then I did another dungeon in the meantime and came back for Phase 4. Wooo see, it's not linear at all.
That's nonsense.
I don't care how you feel, as a grunt, that the game is not linear. it is, especially if there are no choices in the way the WAR advances. In the end, and that's how people will look at it eventually, there is only take A take B take C and then D.
PvP always adds dynamics, I'm not arguing that, I'm also not arguing that you can't do PvE or PvP or whatever in order to help the WAR effort *however* if you want to advance the war Objectives A will always have to be reached to get to objective B and so on. So if you advance to the next zone you will *always* know exactly what has to happen. You will *have* to take that keep, you will *have* to win that scenario x times to advance the war. (You as in Order or destruction). You can't decide to take a bridge instead of a keep and advance through there rather than the other objective.
I don't care if that's not true on a one person level. That's why I said it's a birds eye view. If you can't fathom that then this discussion is meaningless and you have no basis to argue with me on it.
Ofc I'm taking it from a personal perspective of my toon. What other perspective should I be taking?
The perspective of my toon is my "focus level" - this is the level at which I actually play the game.
I don't play the game at the level of generals, those are the meta portions of the game that have influence on me and that I can influence but they are not on my focus level. We can go arguing if this setup with three parallel tug-of-war fronts will turn out to be repetetive and predictable on the strategic level or not (and I'd say they wont) but that is not the focus level of the game.
Let me repeat what seems obvious to me: You are not playing at the level of a general and your true goal is not to win the siege. This is a context in which you pursue your own goals. In Warhammer war is not "the game" - it is an environment in which the game takes place.
Being a grunt your goal is not to "win the war" - this is the job for the highest generals. Your goals are to accomplish tasks given by your officers and to get promotions and medals.
Then your point has nothing to do with what I was discussing or whether the game is linear or not.
*Every* game where others can do progress in your absence is non linear once you take it to a personal level. That's a pointless argument when you're talking about linear design on a Strategic level, which you obviously weren't talking about and is the exact reverse of what you were stating above (way above).
Wtf you talking about?
What about:
- Public Quests
- Open dungeons
- PvP Dungeons
- Tome of knowledge unlocks
- Lairs
.. all contributing to the global RvR effort?
oh.. I remember, those do not matter because "WAR is a WoW clone" and damn those pesky facts to hell.
Public Quests - Do you know what those public quests amount to? What I mean is: what do you do in order to complete them? What is an EA Mythic example of a RvR PvE public quest?Open dungeons - no arguement here there are PvE dungeons that will grant you tier 1 gear, but will you get invited to the sexy parties when everyone else is wearing tier 2 and 3 from PvPing? Is the PvE king encounter going to doable with a guy in tier1 or is he going to be treated like an univited guest who is already drunk and has puked on himself?
PvP Dungeons - Look at the freakin name of this damn thread and ask yourself WTF did you even list this for?
Tome of Knowlegde - No argument here their ToK is very innovative and well worth paying 15 dollars a month for, especially when you are locked out of major sections of it because you don't like to PvP.
Lairs - An area to explore and quest in...what kind of quests? hmmmm...none of the kinds I listed i'm sure.
Picture this markoraos:
EA Mythic announces that all the PvP and RvR aspects are removed from Warhammer online. Is it still worth paying 50 dollars for a box and 15 dollars a month to play this game as it would be or are there better PvE games out on the market?
Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing. Moreover that it is done as a kind of an afterthought with no innovation whatsoever.
I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion.
As for whether WAR can be a "better" PvE game than games that are exclusively PvE, I dont know and I cannot know until we see the game.
What I can see from all the info availaible is that WAR devs spent rather more time actually thinking on how to innovate and improve PvE gameplay than any other MMORPG in recent memory and that includes exclusively PvE ones. I cannot recall any MMORPG that contains so many new PvE game concepts and playing modes.
Just to be clear here is a public quest example that I just found:
The public quest that we saw involved things that greenskins love, such as beer and killing those pesky dwarves. There are actually several parts to this public quest, but the goal is to eventually get a friendly giant to smash open the gate to a dwarven stronghold so that you can deal with its defenders. However, the giant has problems of his own because he's being attacked by waves of creatures. So the first part of the public quest is to kill about 40 or 50 of the things before time runs out. That sounds like a daunting number, but because it's a public quest, you'll have help in the form of other players.
Remember this: Do you enjoy killing # of X for NPC Y?
Successfully completing the first stage of this quest leads to the next problem. The giant is thirsty and wants a drink. Thankfully, there are kegs of beer littered around the place. Again, you need to pick up and deliver a certain number of the kegs to the giant in a limited amount of time. But this isn't an easy beer run because the kegs are defended by various creatures, which you'll have to battle. Again, because there can be many of you in this public quest, the task is doable.
Remember this: Do you like searching, investigating, finding, X for NPC Y? and Do you like to collect # of X for NPC Y?
If you manage to get the giant his beer, he'll get back up and destroy the gate to the dwarven fortress. That brings about the third and final stage of the public quest: killing the defenders. They make things easier for you by sallying out of the fortress in formation, and lines of defenders will rush over the fortress drawbridge to attack you. Each line is tougher than the one before it, so this results in a prolonged melee. To win, you have to wipe out all the dwarves, including the mighty dwarven hero. It's easiest to gang up against him because he can inflict some serious hurt on you if you go against him on your own.
Are these quests not just your standard type quests? Oh sure, It's a timed event (always so much fun
) and it calls for a group effort which Mythic is to be applauded for (any excuse to group in a MMORPG is good) but at the end it's still just the standard fare.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Then your point has nothing to do with what I was discussing or whether the game is linear or not.
*Every* game where others can do progress in your absence is non linear once you take it to a personal level. That's a pointless argument when you're talking about linear design on a Strategic level, which you obviously weren't talking about and is the exact reverse of what you were stating above (way above).
Lol, confusion ensues.
Anyway, what makes the game unpredictable and non linear is that what other players do in your absence actually has a very real and substantial impact on your own game.
This is not something that is really common in MMOPRGS. So far this has been the exclusive province of sandbox MMOs and now here comes a game that is clearly not a sandbox and yet has a world that is heavily influenced by player action. I find this really revolutionary and exciting, much more than "next-gen" graphics or new ways to mash those tired old keys.
As for unpredictability and non-linearity on the strategic level. I purposefully avoided this part of the argument since I felt it's not the true subject of the discussion. However, you wouldn't let go. So here it is:
The battlefront is not a simple tug of war that you win or loose by simple pushing in one direction.
- winning or loosing is determined by victory points
- keeps give flat victory points to their owner's faction
- battlefield objectives give smaller amount of VPs but they influence the situation on the battlefield (giving buffs, decreasing/increasing numbers of keep guards etc)
- scenarios and quests give a constant stream of VPs.
- Tier 3 zone gives additional VPs to the side holding it. The chicken rule does not apply there so it is a part of the T4 battlefront. This gives a second spatial dimension to the strategic map of a single battlefront.
So, there are various strategies for achieving the VP threshold required for zone control. You do not have to take all keeps in order to conquer a zone. You can send elite guilds to scenarios to grind up VPs fast while you hold your keep. You can rush the T3 zone to get the trickle up VPs. You can go for all keeps and objectives in the zone as a surprise attack since these are flat VPs that don't trickle in.
Then add into the equation the fact that there are three battlefronts in different states, including the capitals development levels (a fact that you find irrelevant for some reason). The amount of choices at any given time now explode. There is a L3 capital that you can take now but you'll get considerably less rewards than that L5 capital which is better defended. What do you do? Or are you going to try a feint at that L3 to draw L5 defenders away? etc, etc...
Factor in your own individual agendas. You can take Ork capital easily but you really want that piece of gear that is found only in Chaos capital which is better defended. In addition your own capital is threatened and it will hurt your guild if it is taken. What do you do now?
No, this is not take A, take B, take C rinse and repeat. Not by a very very long shot.
Wtf you talking about?
What about:
- Public Quests
- Open dungeons
- PvP Dungeons
- Tome of knowledge unlocks
- Lairs
.. all contributing to the global RvR effort?
oh.. I remember, those do not matter because "WAR is a WoW clone" and damn those pesky facts to hell.
Public Quests - Do you know what those public quests amount to? What I mean is: what do you do in order to complete them? What is an EA Mythic example of a RvR PvE public quest?Open dungeons - no arguement here there are PvE dungeons that will grant you tier 1 gear, but will you get invited to the sexy parties when everyone else is wearing tier 2 and 3 from PvPing? Is the PvE king encounter going to doable with a guy in tier1 or is he going to be treated like an univited guest who is already drunk and has puked on himself?
PvP Dungeons - Look at the freakin name of this damn thread and ask yourself WTF did you even list this for?
Tome of Knowlegde - No argument here their ToK is very innovative and well worth paying 15 dollars a month for, especially when you are locked out of major sections of it because you don't like to PvP.
Lairs - An area to explore and quest in...what kind of quests? hmmmm...none of the kinds I listed i'm sure.
Picture this markoraos:
EA Mythic announces that all the PvP and RvR aspects are removed from Warhammer online. Is it still worth paying 50 dollars for a box and 15 dollars a month to play this game as it would be or are there better PvE games out on the market?
Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing. Moreover that it is done as a kind of an afterthought with no innovation whatsoever.
I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion.
As for whether WAR can be a "better" PvE game than games that are exclusively PvE, I dont know and I cannot know until we see the game.
What I can see from all the info availaible is that WAR devs spent rather more time actually thinking on how to innovate and improve PvE gameplay than any other MMORPG in recent memory and that includes exclusively PvE ones. I cannot recall any MMORPG that contains so many new PvE game concepts and playing modes.
Just to be clear here is a public quest example that I just found:
The public quest that we saw involved things that greenskins love, such as beer and killing those pesky dwarves. There are actually several parts to this public quest, but the goal is to eventually get a friendly giant to smash open the gate to a dwarven stronghold so that you can deal with its defenders. However, the giant has problems of his own because he's being attacked by waves of creatures. So the first part of the public quest is to kill about 40 or 50 of the things before time runs out. That sounds like a daunting number, but because it's a public quest, you'll have help in the form of other players.
Remember this: Do you enjoy killing # of X for NPC Y?
Successfully completing the first stage of this quest leads to the next problem. The giant is thirsty and wants a drink. Thankfully, there are kegs of beer littered around the place. Again, you need to pick up and deliver a certain number of the kegs to the giant in a limited amount of time. But this isn't an easy beer run because the kegs are defended by various creatures, which you'll have to battle. Again, because there can be many of you in this public quest, the task is doable.
Remember this: Do you like searching, investigating, finding, X for NPC Y? and Do you like to collect # of X for NPC Y?
If you manage to get the giant his beer, he'll get back up and destroy the gate to the dwarven fortress. That brings about the third and final stage of the public quest: killing the defenders. They make things easier for you by sallying out of the fortress in formation, and lines of defenders will rush over the fortress drawbridge to attack you. Each line is tougher than the one before it, so this results in a prolonged melee. To win, you have to wipe out all the dwarves, including the mighty dwarven hero. It's easiest to gang up against him because he can inflict some serious hurt on you if you go against him on your own.
Are these quests not just your standard type quests? Oh sure, It's a timed event (always so much fun
) and it calls for a group effort which Mythic is to be applauded for (any excuse to group in a MMORPG is good) but at the end it's still just the standard fare.
This is ridiculous.
So I suppose for a PvE gameplay type to be truly innovative it shouldn't involve killing mobs? Just stop and think here. What? Player versus environment SHOULDN'T involve killing mobs?
What are you talking about?
Public Quests are designed as a grinders paradise. They are made to to give some sense and purpose to grinding. Some people like to grind all the time. Most people like to grind at least some of the time. PQs are a gameplay mode that improves and works on the grinding aspect of MMOs and as such they are absolutely original.
If you completely abhor grinding mobs then fine - the game has a lot of other things to offer. Go do dungeons or keep sieges or scenarios or exploration quests or whatever. The point is that there is that one aspect of MMORPGS and it was improved by an original mechanic.
...
/to other post
as for the "purpose of war". The IP is all about genocidal racial wars to extermination. This is not "All quiet on the western front"-online or "War and peace"-online. Warhammer is a brutal, ironic, galgen-humor parody of "classical" fantasy.
In addition if there is a historical war that Warhammer draws inspiration from then this would be the thirty-years war. And it was a genocidal war of total extermination and of such bestiality that would make WWII nazi atrocities seem like Hello Kitty online.
Almost half of Germany and central Europe was killed in the most up-close-and-personal ways imaginable. Usually tortured to death to be more precise. Entire cities were crucified or broken on the rack, every man woman child and dog - yes even dogs were tortured because they were the "wrong dogs". Whole huge regions were completely depopulated and it took almost 150 years for central Europe to recover the population and economy levels it had before the war begun. And this is what Empire is based on. Wars can be fantastically vicious and irrational things.
OP if you don't like PVP at all - then WAR is not for you...definetly NOT for you.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
This is a PVP RVR designed game. There is not point in playing if you don't intend on participating in PvP.
We finally agree.
The OP asked if this game was worth playing if he doesn't like to PvP.
I pointed out that PvE in this game is standard to the PvE in all MMORPGs and that he should save 50 dollars for the box and just play one of those.
Here you stepped in and said "Wtf you talking about?" and listed a bunch of stuff that most PvE MMORPGs have; I went on to point out that if you don't play PvP you should save money and play another game.
Then you said "Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing." Blah blah blah "I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion."
I searched for an example of a public quest and found that it was pretty much "standard fare questing"
Then you said "So I suppose for a PvE gameplay type to be truly innovative it shouldn't involve killing mobs? Just stop and think here. What? Player versus environment SHOULDN'T involve killing mobs?" This is something I should of asked you when you said "Wtf you talking about?" but you were not ready for it then So i'll ask it now - what were you expecting in the way of PvE quests aside from those I listed in my original post?
If "/to other post" was directed at me I'll have to ask you to read that post again and put it in its proper context before you reply to it. Good effort though.
To the OP save 50 dollars and play one of the other MMORPGs out there - PvE is pretty standard. If you really must play WAR then wait till it's free trial time.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
WAR has PvE and does provide a lot of innovation and stream-lining. However it's not like it's revolutionizing PvE - basic concepts of questing, killing X number of mobs, fetching so and so items etc. remains mostly the same. The thing that makes WAR less attractive for a pure PvE'er than say, WoW, is that WAR will not be adding loads of raid dungeons, so if you only do PvE, you'll run out of content in WAR a lot quicker than you would in WoW.
You may find this preview from C&VG useful, sounds like he feels similarly to you about PvP
www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php
We finally agree.
The OP asked if this game was worth playing if he doesn't like to PvP.
I pointed out that PvE in this game is standard to the PvE in all MMORPGs and that he should save 50 dollars for the box and just play one of those.
Here you stepped in and said "Wtf you talking about?" and listed a bunch of stuff that most PvE MMORPGs have; I went on to point out that if you don't play PvP you should save money and play another game.
Then you said "Your post implied that WAR has no PvE content apart from your standard fare questing." Blah blah blah "I believe I managed to neatly demolish that notion."
I searched for an example of a public quest and found that it was pretty much "standard fare questing"
Then you said "So I suppose for a PvE gameplay type to be truly innovative it shouldn't involve killing mobs? Just stop and think here. What? Player versus environment SHOULDN'T involve killing mobs?" This is something I should of asked you when you said "Wtf you talking about?" but you were not ready for it then So i'll ask it now - what were you expecting in the way of PvE quests aside from those I listed in my original post?
If "/to other post" was directed at me I'll have to ask you to read that post again and put it in its proper context before you reply to it. Good effort though.
To the OP save 50 dollars and play one of the other MMORPGs out there - PvE is pretty standard. If you really must play WAR then wait till it's free trial time.
Sigh..
Your main argument was that WAR does not bring anything new to PvE gameplay and that the OP can find all WAR PvE features in already existing games.
I think I proved it quite conclusively with examples that this is not the case.
I am really, really sorry but if Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge are nothing new to you then I really have to ask you to inform the general public where have you seen these features implemented before.
And no, I don't buy your argument that any kind of gameplay that involves killing mobs is "more of the same". I'm sorry but I really don't.
I'm asking you what would a PvE game mode have to be like to satisfy your standards of originality? You can't kill mobs because there's been mob killing in games before. You can't have quest givers because everybody has them. You can't carry stuff around or explore because it's "been done before". What is left I ask you?
This is like saying that nothing new or original happened with space sim games since the original Spacewar in the 60's because you were shooting other spaceships there - just like in all the following space sim games. I suppose EvE online is a clone of Spacewar as well - "Shooting ships in space, same old, same old..."
You may say that WAR won't have as much PvE as some PvE-centered games. For example there won't be any huge instanced raid dungeons (except that single (times six) conditional one which is being tested right now).
However you cannot say that everything found in WAR PvE can be found in other games because it is simply and demonstrably not true. If you manage to find Public Quests and Tome of Knowledge in some other game I will publicly admit that I am an ignorant moron and that you are the boss of me.
1/2 of the tomb of knowledge is the Xbox 360 Achievement system and the other half is pretty common stuff found in many MMORPGs.
You can call me Mr. Wickersham from now on and i will call you Philip. Now go fetch me my slippers Philip, chop chop; then fluff my pillow and then massage my feet. I hope you have a strong back, Philip, because I intend to have you pull me around in a small cart.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
1/2 of the tomb of knowledge is the Xbox 360 Achievement system and the other half is pretty common stuff found in many MMORPGs.
You can call me Mr. Wickersham from now on and i will call you Philip. Now go fetch me my slippers Philip, chop chop; then fluff my pillow and then massage my feet. I hope you have a strong back, Philip, because I intend to have you pull me around in a small cart.
Public quest and tome of knowledge is names trademarket by EA-Mythich. You can't find the "names" in any other game.
its part of the 3 things (RvR is the third) where mythic claims to be innovative and bring something new to the standard MMO concept.
It's yet to be seen if mythic is succesfull in really being innovative or they are realy leaning on something that is done before, unless you are in beta.
I don't think that you two can settle the argument without breaking NDA
just my 2 cents
The question I would ask myself is "are they going to have a free trial so I can see if I like what I look like while I'm getting my arms shoved up my bum by a high level newbie hater?"....just a thought
A tiny mind is a tidy mind...
Read the blogs...watch the videos...listen to the interviews. This game has more PVE than PVP. This is a fact!
Alright, listen very closely. WAR is an RVR game, not a PVP game nor a PVE game. Got it?
Save your breathe...there are far too many new-gen players that have never experience or played RvR or think they have in something that wasn't DAoC! Until they get to play RvR and see just how much better and different it is than your standard PvP outing most of them aren't going to understand it!
I get it...sorta like saying, "it's not a car; it's a Ford Mustang"
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Obviously you haven't seen or read anything about Warhammer. The situation you just described CAN NOT happen in WAR. The world is separated into 4 tiers. Tier 1= 1-10, tier 2= 11-20, tier 3- 21-30 and tier 4- 31-40. If someone goes down a tier and attacks people they are turned into a chicken. If you can somehow figure out a way to get killed by a chicken... well you have bigger problems. Again, this game is about RvR, not just ganking.
Even if you don't like PVP, by the time your in Tier 2, you'll be itching to bash some stunties!
WAAAGH!
The question I would ask myself is "are they going to have a free trial so I can see if I like what I look like while I'm getting my arms shoved up my bum by a high level newbie hater?"....just a thought
Free Trials only happen with MMOs that are failures or just really old. You're going to have a LONG wait, because WAR is not going to be a failure.
To put it in the simplest terms: RvR is SOCIAL PvP. In otherwords, you attack and defend as a realm rather than for simple selfish reasons like you see in WoW Arenas. I call WoW pvp "treadmill pvp." It's fun in the beginning, but then it just gets repetitive. RvR is more lasting. RvR IS PvP. The difference is that Arenas focus on more single player pvp (yes.. I consider 6 on 6 single player since you can pretty much do the same in any single player game out there that you don't have to pay a subscirption for) whereas with WAR you're talking about 100s vs. 100s trying to take meaningful things like Keeps, bridges, arsenals, etc. (all planned for WAR).
Blizzard basically panicked when people were getting into mass warfare early on because their servers just couldn't handle it. The game wasn't designed from the bottom up to handle mass people on the battlefield like Daoc. So they invented Battlegrounds (Arenas now) with HUGE and easier rewards which basically sucked all the energy out of the world pvp. WoW's pve is still open world, but the people who spend all their time pvping in instances and Arenas are getting suckered as far as I'm concerned. You can do the same in any single player shooter type game over the internet. A waste of $15 a month, if you ask me.
Save your breathe...there are far too many new-gen players that have never experience or played RvR or think they have in something that wasn't DAoC! Until they get to play RvR and see just how much better and different it is than your standard PvP outing most of them aren't going to understand it!
agreed all the new gamers that have come into MMOs over the past years has put a damper on the overall community and forums as a wholeRvR while some may not see the difference (and most cant that have not played DAoC) those that know what RvR is and is about..for those that don't think of it in this was PVP in most MMos is ether about the PERSON or the TEAM (that you have for that point in time) RvR is about the REALM or FACTION as a whole...
sure i didn't save my breath but hey i can always get another one
Tabula Rasa's control point system is a public quest system.1/2 of the tomb of knowledge is the Xbox 360 Achievement system and the other half is pretty common stuff found in many MMORPGs.
You can call me Mr. Wickersham from now on and i will call you Philip. Now go fetch me my slippers Philip, chop chop; then fluff my pillow and then massage my feet. I hope you have a strong back, Philip, because I intend to have you pull me around in a small cart.
Hi Wicky, I think you'll have to find someone else to massage your rather large feet.
TR's control point system is NOT PQs. While they're both PvE events that is right where similarities end because there is slew of differences.
One, your very own example of the WAR PQ shows that tasks within a PQ are much more varied than waves of mobs attacking your control point. A TR control point assault may be considered a type of a PQ but PQs are much much more.
Two. The rewards system in PQs is light years away from TR one - read it up. While this new "prestige" TR introduced a few months ago (quite some time after Mythic announced their "influence") might seem similar, the rewards are distributed in a completely different manner (the "Vegas" system) that dictates a different playing style.
Three. PQ's are always started by players. Their function is quite different from TR control point thing. A PQ is a "grind enhancement" feature - you start grinding some mobs and weird and interesting things start happening. It is not just "attack or defend a spot on the ground from waves of mobs"
I concur the basic similarities of the two systems but calling them equal is plainly false.
As for Tome of Knowledge (not "Tomb of Knowledge" ffs) being a slight variation of XBox360 achievement system don't make me laugh. Your profile in Xbox (or whatever it's called) is not your RPG character. You don't get new skills or items for your character with it. You do not get information unlocks etc. I'm really sorry but this is a plain case of "EvE is a Spacewar clone".
In addition even you admit that it is an unique amalgamate of stuff already found in other games. Ofc large parts of it are and why shouldn't it be so? I'm sorry but if you build a house from bricks which everyone else use it doesn't mean that the house is a "copy" of all the other houses, and especially if you are using combinations of materials that no one else uses. Your standards of originality are completely irrational - ofc games, like any other creative endeavor, build on the achievements of predecessors.
99% of originality is finding a new combination or pre-existing features that through a synergistic process become a new feature. Both PQs and Tome of Knowledge satisfy this definition completely.