Too much endgame?

Death1942 · June 2008

what happens when a game gets "too much" endgame?

i've seen it in a few MMO's (cant think of them off the top of my head) where the grind from 1-max lvl is completely overshadowed by the endgame. now in some cases this is awesome...in others it just plain sucks. games with over 30 raids, hours of pvp available and crazy requirements (gear being the main one) can cause many on the path to the endgame just give up.

WoW is slowly heading down that track. the grind is becoming longer and longer, people are becoming more spread out and endgame is now much further away than what it was a few years ago.

i would like your views on this issue and what is an example of going "too far"

edit: would like to point out that i quit WoW well over a year ago

ianubisi · June 2008

EverQuest is the primary example of this.

But truthfully, better to have too much than too little.

TristamIzumi · June 2008

The concept of "endgame" in MMO's in general is at fault. Just look at the two words that make the conglomerate: "end" and "game". When these words are used together they should imply "the game has ended", and what do you usually do when a game ends? You stop playing it, and in the case of single player games this is usually the case.

Thus comes the conundrum of an "endgame" in MMO's. It *should* imply the game is over, go away, go find something else to play. However, the money making strategy of a MMO is to keep players around and have them continue to shell out cash every month. So when MMO's are designed with such concepts as "max level", "highest tier armor/weapons", and such things indicative of an "endgame", we come across the problem we see in almost all MMO's in the market today. The game developers, in a desperate desire to have player retention, even when players have "ended the game", create and tack on things to their game to create more time sinks.

It all really boils down to the original design philosophy present. There should be no "finishing", "winning", or "ending" of a MMO. How to rid the game design of these things is kind of a matter of opinion. Personally, I favor a game world with no levels, classes, uber items, or instances, with conquerable player built and owned territory in an open pvp setting and a player run economy. Which means my only real option right now is EVE, which though isn't exactly what I'm looking for, is close enough that I'm willing to vote with my money.

So to answer your question, yes there is too much "endgame" in MMO's today, based on the fact that "endgame" exists in MMO's.

Adamantine · June 2008

I hate the very idea of "endgame".

There shouldnt be any "endgame". There shouldnt be a level cap. All that should happen is your leveling gets slower and slower, until the point you lose interest and either start an alt character or try out a different game.

There shouldnt be raids like there are now. There should certainly be boss fights, and they should be long and hard. And there should be boss fights at every level, too. But not raids where you walk through one and the same dungeon again and again.

Nightsorrow · June 2008

Conclusion: WoW successfully attract tons of casual players but the so called endgame is boring and sick, yet its successful lead to many of the newer MMORPG follow the same or similar path.

No instance, no scheduled working hours(raid), no farm honor(and repeat every seasons) please.

Question: does UO have endgame?

Venger · June 2008

End game is a terrible concept.

Death1942 · June 2008

what do you think is an acceptable amount of endgame?

or if you dont like the idea

what would you put in it's place?

obii · June 2008

What do you define as endgame?

Things to do when your character has 'levelled' out?

If players get bored they quit, so you need as much 'endgame' as possible while keeping the player happy.

My choice would be many kinds of endgame so players can chose and vary what they wish to do in games.

WoW is not so bad where you can pvp do quest or raid.

Spread your endgame far enough over playstyles and have enough dynamic in it and your playerbase will be happy a long time - how to do it properly is the tricky part.

arcdevil · June 2008

endgame is good, the more the better

the problem comes when to reach a promisedly "fun" endgame you gotta go thru months of mindless-boring-repetitive-fulltime grind.

and thats what happens with 99% games nowadays. most of the ppl wont ever get halfway to endgame,becouse the game killed all their brain cells in their way up to a semi-decent status.

Kiriji · June 2008

I like how endgame works in Uo, there is no endgame. Just lots of stuff to do.

ZDPhoenix · June 2008

"30 Assassin LF Hardcore End Game Raiding Guild".

This is what I read the first week of Age of Conan. And while I know 40 year old jobless people were cloosing in on max level, most of us weren't.

See, it's my opinion that most people KNOW there's too much "End Game Content" in MMO's, but seeing how most MMO's can't afford to take "forum credentials" seriously, they can't or don't use our general feedback as a "starting board for new content". And Massive. Oh are these games massive now. That usually means less of the playerbase is heard and more of the "liek I hurd you like mudkipz" commentary.

EverQuest is a good example of the too much end game (Silly Planes).

WoW's Burning Crusade is a great example of it as well (with dailies, heroics, raids, quest chains only doable at 70).

Unknown · June 2008

The reasons wow feels like a grind is for two very simple reasons. First, all good gear is bind on pickup. You can't ever find anything cool and trade it for something else cool. The second goes right with the first. All gear is in specific raid instances from mostly specific bosses. So not only can you not find a cool piece of gear and trade it, but you have to farm a specific boss in a specific instance, and hope that you can either roll good or have enough dkp to get said piece of gear.

This is why I loved D2. I could kill any darn boss I wanted, find cool gear, and use the stuff I needed and trade stuff i didn't need for stuff I wanted. Until we get back to this kind of loot distribution model (albeit a more advanced variety of it), then I just simply won't be playing mmos. Indeed, sometimes I feel like I'll never be able to play an mmo again. Too much forcing people down way too specific paths. Just let me kill, find cool loots, and trade said loots! That's all these games come down to for me (and lots of others I might add). Why do they refuse to support this playstyle? It is so much more fun, and far less "grindy".

I have yet to play any game as much as I did D2. Yet, D2 had roughly a fraction of the content as wow. I attribute D2's success primarily on the factors discussed above, namely the ability to trat phat lootz and the ability to kill most bosses and get most any loot. In essence, people grind in wow because they have to; in D2 they grinded because they *wanted* to. In wow, people are happy when their raid is done. In D2, people couldn't go to bed because they needed to make just one more dungeon run.

I think the D2 formula greatly expanded would be a massive hit.

paulscott · June 2008

end games don't exsist in player controlled MMO's... I pretty much hate them.

from level one to the time I quit I want to be building/supporting/defending/enjoying a town from day X to the time I quit the game with a some personal explorations here and there. X ofcourse being the day I get into a town I like. no end game = no hell.

Death1942 · June 2008

personally being someone who loves DnD (the pen and paper stuff) i love dungeons and raids (endgame) however i find getting there is quite hard. the gear restrictions, the problems with time (seriously anything over 2 hours is pushing it for most people as you have to consider forming the group and heading to the location) and the problem of the grind.

Foho · June 2008

The point in having end-game in a mmorpg is so hardcore players have a whole variation of what to do when your maxed out, world of warcraft as you pointed out was one you thought had too much *endgame*, which i tottally disagree, wow has succeeded in keeping players because if you constantly upgrade your endgame content it means your hardcore players or newly starting players dont just have 1 option, but a wide range of dungeons to raid, sticking with 1 end-game is not enough, as hardcore players will accomplish it within the first week of its release, so having a big variation of places to see/raid/quest is a key factor.

Death1942 · June 2008

sure the option are there but in some cases, as i stated, it can be daunting for a new player. having countless number of raids can be mind blowing and annoying if everyone is focussed on a handful (WoW anyone?). i accept that the hardcore community needs something to do but i think companies should tread carefully if they dont want to risk getting rid of new players.

iZakaroN · June 2008

No endgame cannot be too much. Endgame can be just boring like in WoW. Endgame in a real MMORPG must be infinte, so you play until you enjoy it. The problem in current MMORPG's is that they are predefined, so endgame become boring too fast. The only thing that keep you playing is to progress (new items, new boss down) even if you feel bored from gameplay itself. In oposite sandbox gameplay keep players satisfied more longer and typicaly players continue to play such games for years because such games are more like virtual world than just a game.

spankybus · June 2008

It seems to me that End-game is becoming a game killer. So many people rush through the content of the game to partake in the endless raiding, the uber-gear fashion shows, and countless hours of character development when the character can go no further in the game.

To be, end-game involved getting a new game and trying something new. What I would really like to see is a chat program that can mount into any MMO, allowing friends to have guilds that spam over many different games AND let them chat in real-time, no mater what they are currently playing. I think the main reason people put up with endless, brainless end-game content is they don't wanna leave their mates. just my 2 cents.

Venger · June 2008

Problem is end game has become the end all be all from 1 to ... sucks. It's all about getting to the end game and letting the actual fun begin, but if you can't devote a set schedule to raiding your options are reroll and let the suck begin again or find a new game.

Godliest · June 2008

No, I would even go as far as say that I would rather have only endgame content. I would enjoy a game featuring the ability to instantly after starting the game you can compete at the highest and hardest challenges, or endgame content if that's what you want to call it. I'd rather see almost only endgame content rather than a long grind to the highest level.

Briansho · June 2008

One of the annoying quirks with games with levels. People think they need to finish the game.

Tatum · June 2008

Originally posted by TristamIzumi

It all really boils down to the original design philosophy present. There should be no "finishing", "winning", or "ending" of a MMO. How to rid the game design of these things is kind of a matter of opinion. Personally, I favor a game world with no levels, classes, uber items, or instances, with conquerable player built and owned territory in an open pvp setting and a player run economy. Which means my only real option right now is EVE, which though isn't exactly what I'm looking for, is close enough that I'm willing to vote with my money.

MMOs have always "grind first, have fun later". They sell you on their endgame, yet they make you run through a bunch grindy/cheap content before you can play. Why else would players do everything in their power to rush through the level grind? Why else would players come up with endless ways to power level?

Answer: because "leveling" is the most boring, tedious part of MMOs. The level grind only exists to extend subscriptions in the cheapest way possible. "Heres a bunch of pointless, repetitive shit for you to do. When you finish, I promise you can join everyone else and start having fun." When you think about it, leveling is a lot like all the "busy work" you had to do in school as a kid. The only real purpose to it was to keep you busy.

To be fair though, I think this was a bigger issue with older MMOs. With newer MMOs, theres not as much of a level grind...but theres also not much of an endgame either...

BuzWeaver · June 2008

Endgame is a metaphor for the 'hurry up and have fun mentality' currently plaguing existing MMORPG's and future MMORPG's. These 'end gamers' are all about plowing through those pesky obstacles known as levels (also referred to as grinding), those frivolous time sinks known as quest (see also traveling/smelling the roses), those laboriously tedious projects known as crafting/trades skills and who has time for engaging social graces when there are raids to be planning.

Hexxeity · June 2008

Any endgame at all is too much for me.

I prefer to have the fun spread out across all levels. If the "good stuff" all happens at the end but the middle levels are boring, I will not bother to play past the free month.

BuzWeaver · June 2008

Originally posted by TristamIzumi
The concept of "endgame" in MMO's in general is at fault. Just look at the two words that make the conglomerate: "end" and "game". When these words are used together they should imply "the game has ended", and what do you usually do when a game ends? You stop playing it, and in the case of single player games this is usually the case.
Thus comes the conundrum of an "endgame" in MMO's. It *should* imply the game is over, go away, go find something else to play. However, the money making strategy of a MMO is to keep players around and have them continue to shell out cash every month. So when MMO's are designed with such concepts as "max level", "highest tier armor/weapons", and such things indicative of an "endgame", we come across the problem we see in almost all MMO's in the market today. The game developers, in a desperate desire to have player retention, even when players have "ended the game", create and tack on things to their game to create more time sinks.
It all really boils down to the original design philosophy present. There should be no "finishing", "winning", or "ending" of a MMO. How to rid the game design of these things is kind of a matter of opinion. Personally, I favor a game world with no levels, classes, uber items, or instances, with conquerable player built and owned territory in an open pvp setting and a player run economy. Which means my only real option right now is EVE, which though isn't exactly what I'm looking for, is close enough that I'm willing to vote with my money.
So to answer your question, yes there is too much "endgame" in MMO's today, based on the fact that "endgame" exists in MMO's.

Wonderfully articulated, however what your describing as an equal playing field game does not sound very appealing or compelling. It sounds more like a game designed around ideological socialism. I've never played Eve and I've not read enough about it to make an educated argument about it.

Game designers are having a tougher time meeting the nearly unrealistic if not impractical demands of current players. 'Newer Player' want instant gratification, constant activity and an abundant reward system with as little effort for maximum gain as possible. The problem isn't in the game design, the problem is the players.

There was a time when people played within the parameters of the game. People would use ingenuity, strategy and cunning. People would be reward for their effort and would accept their failures with a sense of personal responsibility. These 'Newer Player' are all about being catered to, they want to be entertained, emotionally engaged and psychologically coddled.

These aren't gamers these are generational malcontents with an entitlement mentality.

Tatum · June 2008

Originally posted by BuzWeaver

Endgame is a metaphor for the 'hurry up and have fun mentality' currently plaguing existing MMORPG's and future MMORPG's. These 'end gamers' are all about plowing through those pesky obstacles known as levels (also referred to as grinding), those frivolous time sinks known as quest (see also traveling/smelling the roses), those laboriously tedious projects known as crafting/trades skills and who has time for engaging social graces when there are raids to be planning.

This is assuming 2 things:

1) leveling/grinding/questing is challenging

2) leveling/grinding/questing is fun and/or entertaining

#1 is almost never the case, IMO of course. #2 is just not true, for some of us. Many MMOs players would say that "endgames" are usually more challenging and more entertaining than leveling. If leveling was just a side effect of playing the game, this would be a different discussion. However, in most cases, leveling is only for the sake of leveling. Doing quests and grinding mobs serves NO purpose in the game world other than leveling your character...so you can grind new mobs and do new quests so you can level...

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