Class vs Skill system

metalhead980 · June 2008

Class system = games like WoW, LotRO, FFXI, EQ2

Skill System = games like UO, Eve online, Runescape, SWG Pre-CU.

(i'm bored at work)

AkaJetson · June 2008

I don't mind either but I generally like skill based games.

Zindaihas · June 2008

You mean level system vs skill system. You can still have classes that advance by skill instead of levels. In fact, that's the system I favor most.

JustBe · June 2008

Originally posted by Zindaihas

You mean level system vs skill system. You can still have classes that advance by skill instead of levels. In fact, that's the system I favor most.

What like SWG with professions?

metalhead980 · June 2008

Originally posted by Zindaihas

You mean level system vs skill system. You can still have classes that advance by skill instead of levels. In fact, that's the system I favor most.

well AO uses Leveling and preset classes but its considered a Skill system.

Levels don't mean much in that game its basically just a way to get more skill points.

Basically by class system i mean something similar to WoW, the "lead me by the hand" class development.

Some ppl enjoy those games cause it takes next to no planning other than a simple CLass tree spec and respec.

Zindaihas · June 2008

I never played SWG (although I'm starting to wish I had, pre-CU: whatever that stands for), so I can't really respond to that. But what I mean is that even though characters should advance by skill, they should still follow a certain class line. A melee class should learn melee skills, a caster class should learn spell related skills, etc.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by metalhead980

Class system = games like WoW, LotRO, FFXI
Skill System = games like UO, Eve online, Runescape, SWG Pre-CU.

(i'm bored at work)

Oh god, not this again.

Sorry you are bored but this is the millionth or more thread about this subject.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

You mean level system vs skill system. You can still have classes that advance by skill instead of levels. In fact, that's the system I favor most.

I agree.

observer · June 2008

I'd rather have just a class system with no leveling or skill system.

Just think of a TF2 and GTA hybrid style game.

paulscott · June 2008

skill since it offeres a bit more exploration, and gets rid of the need for alts in some implementations.

Though the whole point is to be fun.

mike470 · June 2008

I enjoy a skill system, allowing players to do what they want when they want. This allows players to explore the whole game, never being restricted to only having the ability to do certain things.

The only problem is to make sure the skills aren't grindy (like in RS).

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by mike470

I enjoy a skill system, allowing players to do what they want when they want. This allows players to explore the whole game, never being restricted to only having the ability to do certain things.
The only problem is to make sure the skills aren't grindy (like in RS).

I have to say that I don't because I feel it's junky. It essentially allows any player with enough time to make the "uberest, most magical kick ass sword, archer, monk sorceror, heavy armorest, magical scepter wearingest" character in town.

The only way that such a system would be appealing is if at some point, in order to be the greatest in a field, the character would have to specialize. So hybrids can happen but the more one wants to be a great knight, or Archer or Sorceror the more one has to leave something behind.

ladyattis · June 2008

Originally posted by observer
I'd rather have just a class system with no leveling or skill system.
Just think of a TF2 and GTA hybrid style game.

Honestly as much as I love the skill-level system I do admit that I love how in TF2 the only real 'levels' are unlocking the weapons, which makes you focus on learning to play the game rather than min-maxing, which really improves the longevity of the game for me. Now I don't play it as much as I play most other games, but I never get tired of TF2 when I do play it. Usually RL or other more interesting issues tear me away when they come. So, I have to say I think Valve got the idea right that if you have a class system don't lock up the core powers of the class, give them as they are and let the players learn to use them.

-- Brede

Zindaihas · June 2008

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by mike470

I enjoy a skill system, allowing players to do what they want when they want. This allows players to explore the whole game, never being restricted to only having the ability to do certain things.
The only problem is to make sure the skills aren't grindy (like in RS).

I have to say that I don't because I feel it's junky. It essentially allows any player with enough time to make the "uberest, most magical kick ass sword, archer, monk sorceror, heavy armorest, magical scepter wearingest" character in town.

Exactly. Plus, just as in real life, there's not enough time for characters to learn everything there is to know in every field. That's why they should become masters of their class and not a jack of all trades. And it would also allow every character to become exactly the same by the time they reach the endgame. Players constantly complain about how they want to be unique. Letting everyone learn everything prevents that.

ladyattis · June 2008

Originally posted by Zindaihas
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by mike470 I enjoy a skill system, allowing players to do what they want when they want. This allows players to explore the whole game, never being restricted to only having the ability to do certain things.
The only problem is to make sure the skills aren't grindy (like in RS).

I have to say that I don't because I feel it's junky. It essentially allows any player with enough time to make the "uberest, most magical kick ass sword, archer, monk sorceror, heavy armorest, magical scepter wearingest" character in town.

Exactly. Plus, just as in real life, there's not enough time for characters to learn everything there is to know in every field. That's why they should become masters of their class and not a jack of all trades. And it would also allow every character to become exactly the same by the time they reach the endgame. Players constantly complain about how they want to be unique. Letting everyone learn everything prevents that.

I think a better solution is to allow players to join a guild of their choosing where it has a general cluster of skills very much related to each other. And as a player advances in that guild they can specialize. So you have a guild of mages, but not all mages throw fire balls or even deal in elemental magic. Some decide that illusions and mind control are far more interesting so they learn those skills. Or maybe they want to focus solely on alchemy and golem building. Or any other set of skills. Simply put, why should anyone be forced to follow a fixed class with a static set of abilities that are all the same? Giving generalized skill sets and opening up other skill sets as you go along to specialize is far better than saying you are a mage and some how all mages throw fire balls (yet NPC uber mage seems to prefer illusions and mind control...). Specialization is always key whether it's a class system, a guild system, or a skill set system, because some players have a general strategy in their head at the time and allowing them to experiment is better than not.

-- Brede

Zindaihas · June 2008

Well I definitely agree with diversity within classes and I don't think it's too difficult a task to implement.

chryses · June 2008

I can't believe I just saw this post as I just started a thread on the exact same topic! very funy

I can't understand why there are not more games with an EVE like system especially fantasy MMOs. The only change I would make is to have a bonus modifier. E.g. XP ticking over in the background but you have a small bonus modifier kick in when you complete missions etc.

Nightsorrow · June 2008

Most of us here voted for skill based yet the market are flooded by level and class system, L.O.L.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by Nightsorrow

Most of us here voted for skill based yet the market are flooded by level and class system, L.O.L.

That means nothing. Perhaps this site has attracted the majority of a small demographic. It's like preaching to the choir. Of course you are going to get a lot of "yays" and "Hallelujahs" When you are polling the already converted.

And as I've seen this site does have a large number of the sandbox/skill based demographic.

Of course some have said "the games you want are still around, why don't you go play them". To which the response is "they are not the same they have changed".

It's very possible that he dev's, in certain cases, have made mistakes but it is also just as equally possible that the dev's had to change the games in order to compete in the ever expanding market.

If skill based games were such a draw you would find more of them. Especially if no one is making them and there were a large group that wanted them.

My guess is that it is not a large group but it is the group that come from those early games. Several hundred thousand? not sure, you would have to add up all those subs when those games were most active.

It's very hard to raise money when you are competing to get a slice of several hundred thousand to a million people when there are so many games out there also competing for those people in a different way.

edit: now that I've voted I can see that the poll is based on "27 people". not really a quorum, no?

RVallant · June 2008

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by mike470

I enjoy a skill system, allowing players to do what they want when they want. This allows players to explore the whole game, never being restricted to only having the ability to do certain things.
The only problem is to make sure the skills aren't grindy (like in RS).

I have to say that I don't because I feel it's junky. It essentially allows any player with enough time to make the "uberest, most magical kick ass sword, archer, monk sorceror, heavy armorest, magical scepter wearingest" character in town.

The only way that such a system would be appealing is if at some point, in order to be the greatest in a field, the character would have to specialize. So hybrids can happen but the more one wants to be a great knight, or Archer or Sorceror the more one has to leave something behind.

Why? Some people like having the ability to be that awesome. It's something they can choose to strive for or not, restricting that is about the same as having a class system imo.

traquena · June 2008

neosteam has both features it has a class system and Skill system. You can level up your skill of your class. Also you can learn many different skill by collecting core machine and put at your slotted equips.

Sovrath · June 2008

Originally posted by RVallant

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by mike470

I enjoy a skill system, allowing players to do what they want when they want. This allows players to explore the whole game, never being restricted to only having the ability to do certain things.
The only problem is to make sure the skills aren't grindy (like in RS).

I have to say that I don't because I feel it's junky. It essentially allows any player with enough time to make the "uberest, most magical kick ass sword, archer, monk sorceror, heavy armorest, magical scepter wearingest" character in town.

The only way that such a system would be appealing is if at some point, in order to be the greatest in a field, the character would have to specialize. So hybrids can happen but the more one wants to be a great knight, or Archer or Sorceror the more one has to leave something behind.

Why? Some people like having the ability to be that awesome. It's something they can choose to strive for or not, restricting that is about the same as having a class system imo.

I'm a firm believer in balance, in this or that choices. Also it's "everything thrown in but the kitchen sink" heroes.

In addtion, it looks tacky and ridiculous. "I'm the greatest swordsman in the world and I can scale any wall and break into any chest AND I can command all the powers of the 'other worlds' calling down fire from the sky AND I can create the greatest sets of armor the world has ever known".

Oh, I'm sure there are people who want the ability to "be that awesome" but I find it a bit to lackluster and common to my taste. There is no finesse, there is no pride in your choices other than to grind out every skill youi possibly can so you can be exactly like all the other people who did the same. Which I thought was the whole point of having a skill system. To NOT be like everyone else. Sorry, pass.

And at least with a class system you find people of one class not ALL classes. Bear in mind that I'm for a class system but for one that allows customization in that class.

edit: or a skill system where players, at some point, have to make choices if they are to rise higher than a certain level of ability. So though you will get hybrids, there could be someone who really IS the master of magic, who really is a great swordsman but not both.

nomadian · June 2008

I like class systems to be honest. I like games like Dota, TFC, some mmorpgs.

HotLine · June 2008

i like skill system to where you can do anything you want freely

Wizardry · June 2008

There is NO such thing as a skill system in mmo's.I gotta get that out right away because i have seen so many think they are playing a skill system but it has nothing to do with real skill.

Some games that like to call it a skill system,do nothing but have stat sets that are raised the exact same way levels are raised.After a certain amount of killing you get to level up your stats in just the same way you would be getting a stat raise by leveling.Game devs are not stupid,they know full well most players will go for the all out max stat boost in one area strongest to there class.They will design the game accordingly.

For some reason people can't grasp the concept as being the exact same as normal levelling,just because you get to add the numbers there still not giving you something that would break there game.For those that think they like to build hybrid classes it still evens out in the end and really accomplishes NOTHING.So you put a few stats into better defense or more agility,everything you add into those grey areas is just weakening your classes best stat,so like i said it evens all out.I just wish people could understand that but they can't.

I think it was the DnD rule set that actually tried to make a little sense into stat building.There rule set didn't just give you 5 pts each level up and say here disperse them.What they did was go one step further and give bonuses if you added stats into your job/class strengths or where the stats should be going i guess is the way to say it.So say you had 5 pts after a level up to disperse,you may actually end up with 7/8/9 or more if put in the right area.

An example of this would be a fighter.His sensible stats would be STR so if you added a pt into STR you would actually be given 2 for each one.If you detered away from the normal design like add into luck because it gives more criticals you may actually lose a pt so it would take 2 pts just to get credit for one.I hope that all made sense.The problem still lies in the SKILL aspect.IMO skill is in first person shooters that are designed to allow players to think and react and change there thinking on the fly.MMORPG's do NOT allow this way of playing,so you will never be able to or shouldn't be using the term "SKILL" in an MMO.This doesn't mean it won't happen and i think it is in the near future,it's just not here yet.

It is IMO actually going the other way,further from skill by allowing players with far superior stats or numbers/levels to gank weaker easily beaten players that even the worst player ever to play a game would have no problem doing.

Ravanos · June 2008

unfortunately most MMOers (IE wow players) are too lazy to deal with something as "complicated" as a skill based system. where you might actually have to think for a second about the direction of your character and not just "I R Warr ... I R tank"

daarco · June 2008

Skill based.

I tryed a class based once, and that was one of the weirdest thingsi have ever seen. I think EU is more into skill based and US into class based.

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