Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Is the MMO days over?
Erhun
Member Posts: 170
For me they are about to be, but that is because I can't find anything I personally enjoy enough to pay money for and sorry, F2P games don't cut it for me I've tried a few of them.
Me and a friend were talking about this the other day, games being released now are just awful.
AoC isn't finished, when it is I think it will be amazing, will I go back and play it when I hear it's been fixed for the most part. Nope.
WoW is about to kick the bucket, how much longer can it live on? If it stays another few years or more then good for Blizzard.
WAR is sounding terrible, we'll see how that turns out.
TR, WAY to easy to play. Even still when I just gave it another try, fun, too easy.
It just seems that the newer games aren't anywhere near as good as the old ones from back in the day. We sat and though, was it us? Have we changed and expect to much from companies now? Is it because we are older? Nope. We finally came to the conclusion that games being released aren't as good as older ones.
I never played EQ so I don't know about it. I hear it was awesome.
FFXI, favorite game to date, just wish there were more people.
DAoC, Dead pop wise.
It seems our older games are just losing people to the point where it's not enjoyable anymore. the new games are so focused on making money and not living up to the hype.
END OF RANT!!!
I've seen other people say things similar to this on the forums before. I've been thinking about it more and more since then and come to this as my final thought.
Are the companies losing touch with the players? Do they just not care about the customer anymore? I feel abandoned by my heroes of my childhood. (Yes I am weird, now that we know that let us continue.)
I've talked to a lot of people about this, all of which were friends, and they feel the same way. So now I go to mmorpg.com.
How do you people feel about all of it. The older gamers please.
EDIT:
So....The enter button just kind of screwed me....Did not see that coming. So let's all just forget about the poll I was starting there and start voicing our opinions.
Comments
Had a long post typed, but I guess in the end the reasons could be summarized into a small list, please forgive me I use EQ1 as a reference for comparison, but it is the easiest for me as I have the most background knowledge to refer to.
- Leveling the character: Reaching maximum level means nothing in today's games. They play more like a checklist and people feel like they are on a schedule playing through them. When someone reached Level 50 in the early days of EQ, it was officially anounced. Reaching level 50 and later, level 60 were no small feats. It took effort, knowledge and dedication.
- Travel: Journeys mean nothing as well in today's games, they just feel like an unnecessary interruption of what you really need to do, and please remember you are on a damn schedule. So journeys mean nothing. Example of EQ again: You could die on each of your trips to a certain zone, if you were not careful. You had to figure out a safe way to travel through a zone, which sometimes could contain mobs, which could kill you in one or two swings.
- Death: Dying means nothing in today's titles. You splat, walk back to your tombstone or whatever icon they picked to be fancy, click it, go on... Some games have some small malus for a time but that's about it. Dying in EQ was real painful, and corpse runs were no fun. But hey, death is nothing trivial, it is death so it should hurt the player, or not? You had to interact, you had to talk to people, ask them for help, for a rezz, a necro to summon a corpse, yadda yadda. You talked to strangers in need of help, you met unfriendly people giving shit about your fate (your charcater's fate of course), you met nice people, helping you. Later you helped them, ingame friendships were made, relationships were built, guilds were formed, ...
- Player interaction: See above point, with the addition that in today's titles seeing other players is mostly just perceived as an unpleasant encounter, because the dude is killing my f...... mob, and I have to wait until it spawns again. OMG damn I am on a damn schedule. What is the guy thinking he is doing, darnit... EQ: You were happy to meet other people most of the times. Nothing better than the traveling cleric, tossing you a rezz. The druid SOWing you, unasked, if I might mention that. All in all, you HAD TO interact or the vast dangerous world would never open up to you in its entirity. Full Stop.
- Kiting/Reverse Kiting: This one is personal, because I am a fan of it. In none of the newer titles the "Art of kiting" is possible at its fullest anymore. EQ: I loved to kite mobs, mostly reverse kite, my firstie was a necro. I loved to kill something by the power and use of my spells, knowing when I would screw up, fizzle, or get a few unlucky resists I would be toast. That's thrill and not the slaughter of a thousand moles to solve the next quest on my schedule.
- Maps: The integration of Mini Maps was probably the worst move ever in MMORPG-history. Nowadays you run after an arrow to your destination, to kill those few moles, to solve your next quest, on your schedule. Oh did I mention you are on a schedule? :P When I read the zone chatter in some of today's games, I really wonder how people can ask for directions and get lost. How in hell is it possible? My impression is that people just rush and don't look around. Exploring, anyone? EQ: Level up Sense Heading anyone? haha. Well after the first login you were so damn lost and overwhelmed. Navigating after loc? Lost art form :P
- Raiding: Tactics anyone? Hour long battles? Not in today's games. WoW might be the closest actually to a succesful raid game. I respect what WoW is, but never could get warm with it. But when comparing, WoW has the most inspirations from EQ1 raiding and that is what makes the game succesful in the end. It will never be different. A game lives and dies with endgame content. EQ still has the best raid game ever, which is my opinion and debatable, but I have no problems making that statement as I believe in it.
Well there could be more points, but those were the ones coming to my mind, and now it has been a long post as well, but I love ranting about stuff like that. Fell free to agree or disagree, but discuss
Maybe one day we will see a company courageous enough to bring the "adventure" back into the adventure games, and just don't spoonfeed everything, making games feel like checklists.
I love this game genre to be honest and I tried a ton of games after EQ, but I could play none of them for more than a year's duration. EQ got me hooked for 6 long years until I quit it.
Sharlochar, your post should be carved in stone
In short: For everyone who thinks that the new games are crap, two think they are great.
Meaning: Developers are actually getting more money out of it than before. They are targeting the masses of casual unskilled players. These players tend to have no or only a small gaming history. They haven't played SWG, EQ or UO and have no possibility to compare new games with older ones. It is the group of oldschool players that are being left behind. No matter what you develop they will whine anyway. It is simply too hard to please them and additionaly this group has become a minority. So why bother?
Only when the need for casual grind-away solo friendly games like AOC, WoW etc. is saturated will the oldschool player group become targeted again. Until then its waiting or starting your own project / mod.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
That is exactly how I understood the poll, because the OP directed his questions at this group of players. The reasons you gave are all valid and true. This is how the market works and the spiral will never be turned back. The market opened up for the masses. I picked the second option in the poll, because I count myself in for the group of "older players", which I thought the question was directed at.
You mention that the older player generation whines, which is in my eyes not true. At least for my part I just tried to sum up the reasons why the first generation games were more satisfying to play than today's titles.
I enjoy todays games as well, but I don't enjoy them to the extent I did enjoy the first generation MMORPGs. They are just too trivial for me.
You say as well that the newer gamer generation has no means of comparison. This is true, they come from a videogame background, while the older generation arrived to MMORPGs coming from MUDs, so they were used to text-based adventure worlds and interaction. I think this background makes a big difference of what you want from a game.
First id like to state I almost totally disagree with everything scholor stated.
1.You want leveling longer? leveling adds nothing to gameplay just a time sink.
2. Minimaps are great they give you a heads up on where you are. Granted I want a bigger world, but I still want minimaps.
3. Raids are almost a waste of time to develop, they are only fun a few times and people quickly get bored of them or no longer "need" them. A few raids is fine, but i would rather see a better endgame.
Hey we all have our ideal game and for me eq blows, long live 10six.
I would like to see real advancement in mmo's like one huge persistant world on ONE server become a norm. I would like to see player owned, modified, attackable land. I would like to see modified everything weapons vehicles armors. I want to fight people and I want there choices of defenses/strategies and weapons/mods to make every fight unique, not there time in game or how many bosses they killed.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
You can have all that, except maybe the one single server, which no fantasy title provides by now. I am not much into EVE, but I think this game runs just on one single big server and might be the game for you when I read your post, but it is sci-fi.
You just need to roll your character on a PvP server and play your game. You just have a different idea of those games and you it right in your post, because you say MMOs, which are not to be confused with MMORPGs, which when closely looked at them, are two different game genres.
Your approach to the game is a PvP-based one, that is why you probably see leveling your character just as a "phase", before you can enjoy PvP. No problem with that, but my point is that leveling is too easy, I don't mean longer I mean too easy. Take AoC nowadays, you can reach max lvl of 80 in no time. It's always like that, some people love it, some people don't. Nothing against it, but why don't make it tougher? The whole PvE-part has to offer not a single real challenge. Sure, it is not so important as AoC as an example is focused around PvP, but it is a bit too simple.
Welcome to the Jaded Gamers Club.
Beverages are available from the in house bar, although it might not offer the refreshment you expect as some of them are still in development even though they have been available for years. You may get a glass of yeast, you may get potatoes, or you may even get a real beverage that tastes amazingly like another beverage of a different brand, only worse.
Good luck and enjoy your stay.
DarkSpace Developer - Play DarkSpace - Play For Free!
Medusa Engine SDK - Free MMO Game Engine
Hampton Roads/East Coast Video Gamers Association
Most MMOs that have came out in the last years suck ass. Props to WoW but that game is missing something... Not sure what. besides that I am done with WoW. I don't plan going back to it either.
We need something new! its all been done before! we need a new type, style - what ever of MMO! When I say style i don't mean another fucking martial arts mmo, or classic swords and shield click and kill, or one that takes place in the future with pew pew lasers... Something new... But what.. Maybe we'll never know...
Besides that I've personally gone back to one of the greatest classics (I think) that has graced the earth.
I think everyone should come play Diablo 2+LoD with me!!!
But besides that... MMO days are near there end unless something breakthrough happen, and happens soon... I don't see MMOs getting any funner.
~max~
This post should be put on a MMORPG Wall of Fame Plaque. EQ1 was the only true hardcore glorious MMORPG ever created. Anyone who states otherwise obviously never truly played EQ1 in it's glory days,
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I am not so sure the mmorpg industry is over per say even though lately the releases do seem sub par.
I do think there is more competition with game consoles and other genra's that seem to have more re play value . I do think that there are other factors that affect the fun of game play. From how folks act in games. To farmers that hit you with game mail for buying selling gold. TO the fact that those that started in Eq and or Daoc have already made it to end game in 1 or more of the games. When it comes down to it whack a mole is just that. There are some enviorens where it is most certainly easier and more fluid verses other enviorns that are riddled with on going bugs, that deter from immersion . There will never be a mmorpg one size fits all., however i think it is more on the line that we the players have changed. We have gotten older. We have obligations that do not allow us to sit and wait hours for a group and or no matter what gear we have in some gear heavy games there is always something else that comes along.
To me the journey has to be part of the goal and a great big world to explore that has something to do other then just the leveling hamster grind.
I also think that something has been lost in the social factor. Back in the day guilds pals being social made the game. More often then not it was the pals that use to make us stay in a game long after the fun part seemed to be missing. When mmorpgs forget the social factor and the reason to play together is to have fun
seems to be the missing key. In this day and age it is much more simple to go no this just isn't fun , and much easier to walk away.
One last part, is the updating of pc machines to play a game. We are in a different place money wise then in times past. It seems to be the costs prohibited to update a machine just to play a game that gets old too.
There is room for more games but most will be the same style and seem to borrow things from other games already out. But if all the game offers is instances with quests nada to explore and most armor looking the same of the same type of characters with not much different animations then there are most certainly other things to do then just button mash
You are correct, I do like pvp more. Eve is also really close to the perfect game, but so is 10six.(for me) And both them games are about as old as EQ.
So here we have two fundamentally different old school mmo gamers completly unhappy with current games.
I do play rpgs also, I loved endless-ages and I played wow for a few years. Now take the leveling in endless-ages it was IMPOSSIBLE to reach max skill level. Now what did that add to gameplay, well it kept me botting even though I was high enough to pvp fine. That is where the problem lies with me, when i would rather bot than actually level theres really not much point in the leveling. Now take 10six the leveling (which they added later) was basically a cash sink, you bought your levels, so you didnt have to bot, and levels didnt really matter.(basically levels let you own more bases and make more money) When you reached 100 it was announced since it was so hard to give away that much money..lol
My general philosophy is that there should be enough DIFFERENT games to make everyone happy. I even enjoyed motor city online. The koreans have a fishing game, golf, you name it they have or will make it into a mmo.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
I swear I get a game glow whenever im reminded of EQ1's glory days-- kiteing + fizzle + or running out of arrows + adds + actual darkness (didnt have a firebeatles eye or wisp stone) + human ranger = train to zone!!! ... if i can remember where...
Just because you grow up and get bored with MMORPGs doesn't mean there isn't a big crop of twelve year olds out there just waiting to get their hands on their own high speed internet connection and a credit card for monthly fees.
All you have to do is copy WoW, and update the graphics every so often, and a whole generation of kids will think it's brand new and the best thing since pop tarts.
That was fun. We do tend to remember the fun stuff though. I also remember riding on the boat to get to another continent for 30 rl minutes. Seriously, your character just sitting on a boat for over half an hour. Plus staring at your spell book, unable to see the game world, while you memorized your spells.
And of course the infamous corpse runs!
Please help, my corpse is at the bottom of so and so dungeon, and I'm naked!
But the grouping was fun, and it made for a great community. I really dislike the current trend of everyone playing solo together in an MMORPG.
how about when sitting on the boat looking at your spell book and dying cuz you got killed by a cyclops-- been there done that. You only got a brief look of a cyclops head and shoulders above the water before you die.
Gonna quote this for truth.
I am gonna post this next bit from my own perspective... Please, noone take anything I am gonna say as a personal attack. I am here to talk about games, and you may love a particular game, but that dosent mean you have to get offended if someone else dosent. I am just posting this in an atttempt to ward off a pointless argument before it even starts.
In my personal opinion, the post UO/ EQ/ DAoC/ Whatever generation of MMORPGs has lost it's way.
The reason? As much as I respect the art, design, and talent that has gone into it, and for all the things it does right, it is WoW.
The post-WoW landscape is horrible... easy play MMO lite knitting simulators with no community. Not in the sense the pre-WoW games had it anyhow. We all have been a victim of WoW's success, in a very real sense. Now unless a game hits a huge level of subs people crow about it's 'fail', and the only way the Devs can see to hit these huge sub numbers is to appeal to the widest demographic as possible. All games are preferbly built to be played from everyone 8-80 and this comes at a price.
Broken points in modern games for me are;
These are the main reasons for me, but there are more... Auction houses, insta travel, over use of instances... blah blah blah... all things that destroy community... I just havent the time to go into them right now.
In short, why were the 'old games' better? For one reason, and all the points above boil down to it really...
They had a heart.
There was a time my friends an I used to sit around talking about where this genre was going with awe and excitement, now most of them have stopped playing them, preferring to just play single player games and online FPS. They tell me they just don't see that point in any of the new MMORPGs... I tend to agree with them.
Now we see every game Dev struggling to maximise it's profit, which I get to an extent... these things arnt run as a charity after all, but doing so at the expense of the game itself is short sighted madness.
Instead of seeing what inspired Blizzard to copy EQ so deeply, what they oviously loved about that game and the others like it so much they sought to emulate it, these new Devs just saw to 7,8,9,10 million subs and marked WoW as a 'success'. They didnt stop to look at what MMORPGs were, what they meant to us 'pioneers' of the genre, and what it meant to be a success not just now in the 3 months after launch, but in the next 9 years or so. They didnt get the 'golden egg' that lay at the heart of the MMORPG experience. They didnt understand the 'soul' of these games. Instead they just saw the fat goose that laid that golden egg and then happily went about slaughtering it for one big dinner. What they didnt realise is that it could have lasted them for ever.
Just to be clear, I do not believe the way I feel is 'first game love', I played UO first and I loved EQ, so that dosent mean anything to me. I am also not nostalgic for the sake of being nostalgic... It just so happens sometimes things get worse as they become more mainstream, bland, and watered down. MMORPGs are a good example of this.
People might also accuse me of being a 'jaded gamer', but the truth I am not. Despite all the years playing this genre I still have the same enthusiasm for it when it's done right. I simply have no enthusiasm for them when they are not.
Anyhow, like I say, not trying to start a fight, just saying it as I personally see it.
I think it's true to say mmos have gone in a different direction from their roots. Whether there will be no more of old-school mmos who knows, but if you look at other genres of games- they are sometimes left in history. There will be aspects that will carry on however- stuff like grouping, while maybe less of an emphasis- is still a part of mmos and maybe this still has way to get better. The idea of a fulfilling group-based experience that consists more of group-makeups and killing mobs and being next gen could be good.
The MMO days are over for me, for now. I am not playing anything at the moment, and there's really nothing on the horizon that has much of a chance of enticing me back into the fold.
The challenge is gone, the adventure is gone, the camaraderie is gone. I've finally realized that the aspects of online gaming that I value are nowhere on the radar of any game developer anywhere. Everything they make revolves around leveling up for leveling's sake and/or proving you are "better" than the people around you.
Storytelling has fallen by the wayside. Being interested in other people is a forgotten art. Thanks to the very nature of the Internet, there are no secrets, and therefore no discovery. The creativity that was so crucial in order to give birth to the genre is no longer necessary in an industry riddled with copycat opportunists. And thus, creativity is no longer rewarded, or even valued.
Ah, well. I can at least satisfy some of my needs in single-player RPGs. I guess that will have to do unless or until I'm lucky enough to stumble upon a decent PnP RPG group in my city.
I have to say that no the era of MMOs is not over. Perhaps the Golden Age of MMOs is over. However, MMOs are here to stay. WoW will be king for years and years. It's not going anywhere. More and more MMOs are coming to consoles and the total number of MMO players will increase considerably as a result.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
WoW will be around for a while now. AoC even when its fixed won't be anything special, its the gameplay that is broken.
When EQ hit it big, it had its clones, but not completely. There were still several unique games back then. A good variety in MMOs. Now in the post WoW world everyone tries to mimic their success. What did WoW do right? They made everything easy. Braindead easy. So that's what we get now. A bunch of level and class based games with the same UI that a retarded pigeon could win at. The old games are bleeding out because the companies are moving on to make more WoW clones, or they're simply too old to attract anyone new. Those golden MMOs are too far gone to get into now, Ultima Online, DAoC, EQ, Asheron's Call... It's sad. My one hope is Darkfall.
Darkfall Travelogues!
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
I didn't even have to play EQ to realize it was a huge timesink. I knew someone personally who played it 24/7, and they still play it to this day.
Vanguard tried to bring back those "glory" days, but look what happened. The genre desperately needed that radical change to break the mould.
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
That's not what he was talking about at all. He just wants a level of skill to actually mean something again. Death should mean something. You should be scared of dying. Travel should mean something to so that getting to that new awesome place is a substantial accomplishment. That doesn't equal time sinks.
Darkfall Travelogues!
It was what he was talking about. I played EQ for 4+ years or so.
I know exactly what he wants.
Meaningful in EQ has ALWAYS meant timesinks.
Travel in Luclin EQ directly equates to timesinks. It was tried in Vanguard and they had to implement portals or people would have left. What more proof do you want that it doesn't work anymore?
If people want they can still come back to EQ, surprisingly noone does.
EQ is dead, sorry.
I loath these kinda posts.
EQ is still out there, you can still play it the way you used to, AKA
-taking hours to get your corpse
-running for 30 minutes to get somewhere
-spending 1 hour to get your new spell
Vangaurd tried to do it, uhmm....it took 2 months and they had to change the game to a more friendly style game or people would have all left it.
If you like that sorta game, go play it, it's called "DEAD EQ".
But don't come pretending here that those game can still be successful. People want gameplay and content, the EQ times of timesinks are over.
I think you hit the nail right on the head here. The biggest reason most people don't play the older games is because they are 'dead'. MMORPGs that are group based need people, and so one without them is on a spiral.The fact that EQ has lasted 9 years is testament to the power of it's game model though. Time will tell us if TR/ AoC/ LotR can match that, but I am personally thinking they won't.
Btw, VG failed for a lot of reasons, I am not even trying to defend it as it was, and I don't want to turn this into a VG thread, but it's game design philosophy to me was sound. The technical side of things wasnt. The reason it is failing now, despite it looking a LOT better these days, is simply that noone will play it due to a bad rep from launch and, yes, that makes it a somewhat hollow experience right now. Maybe with the new skin job it's promised and a well funded relaunch with a trial VG will rise again..? Who knows? I know that I am personally ready to give it another go when everyhting is in place, especially after AoC not being the game in the end that I personally hoped for.
To be clear though, I am not asking for a repitition of the EQ model here, I am asking for a MMORPG that is group based, is challenging, removes the spoon feeding gimmicks, and gives us a world where reputation and skill matter. In short, a game that is not simply a mmorpg-lite knitting simulator. It's just that games like EQ and DAoC were the last ones to offer a lot of us this. I could bore you all night about how I would make such a game, but until I get that lotto win... Maybe Mortal Online will carry the beacon? I have to say I love the Dev's philosophy. Lets see if they can deliver though
I personally would love someone like Mythic to give a game like DAoC a skin job and polish, while leaving what made the game so special intact, and relaunch it. Maybe if Jumpgate: Evolution works then we will see more of this approach... After all, it's gotta be cheaper then building a game from scratch and would return ok money.