OK,... Let's give the word to Rob Pardo: Blizzard SVP of game design. Interview Paris June 24th 2008. I think this man has some knowledge :
"I think user generated content is amazingly awesome. But I do think it’s not the magic bullet that’s going to 'make' your content. I think sometimes people think about making games by saying: ‘We’re just going to take this editor, and the fans are going to make everything for us!’ I don’t think that’s the right approach."
He concluded on this front: "I think if you make a great game and put in the tools to let the fans manipulate that game, that will be a great model."
Answers it all in just 3 lines of text. Every succesful MMORPG has some sandbox elements in it. But the designer needs to have controls otherwise you're off into no mans land. ...EVE is a game where your avatar can't even leave its own spaceship. Calling this the example of sandbox is the same as saying "hey My paladin makes his own helicopters in Wow, changing the game by manipulating it.
Agreed ... even in sandbox game, the devs have to build the game and set the rules by which the world itself functions. Then give the tools that can impact that world to the players.
WoW as an example, doesn't let you do that - under no circumstance, you and your actions are able to impact the world arround you. You are 100% expiriencing the world as the developers set it up for you and you have no tools whatsoever to change it.
Eve does let you do that - your actions and the actions of your peers, can influence the overall political and economic landscape of the game.
Not saying one approach is better than the other, I played and enjoyed both in a different way. I would definitely like to see a sandbox or a quasi sandbox MMO developed by a company that has a clue, as I think there is room on the market for more. Wow's huge market success has an unfortunate result that all new major releases get developed closely folowing the model, yet none of them managed to make even a dent in the wow armor - from the simple reason that many of us figured out, but somehow the people developing(or the people with the money) are blind to it - you can never out-wow wow.
..EVE is a game where the spaceship IS your avatar btw. (although that is also a subject to change in the near fuure)
Sigh, just keep on dreaming. There are only 2 MMORPGames: the good ones in which you have F U N and the bad ones in which you don't have F U N. If you are into one where 0.2% of the people have fun. No problem. Just don't call them sandboxes all over the place, because there aren't any. Only fanboys who manupulate the definitions to justify their frustrated thoughts. UO is a laugh compared by todays standards. In fact its designer made one of the worst MMORPG's back in 2007, so ... keep on dreaming.
Get out of here troll. Go back to your amusement park called WoW. I am doing this right, right?
OP is also a horrible troll because he "CAN NOT" succeed in spelling "cannot".
Would be nice if someone actually posted what exactly a Sandbox Mmo is , because I'm sure most Mmo's have some Sandbox element to them at least. So how about a Sandbox Mmo checklist from one of you experts out there ?
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
Gameplay suitable for all player types: Socializer, Killer, explorer, achiever, etc etc etc.
Loosely defined classes- Allow the players to make their own classes from an available pool of skillsets.
Wide open game world. No restrictions on where you travel sure players may get wtfpwnt by some snarling nasty beastie but thats part of exploration.
tools to allow the community to run events from tournaments to weddings
100% player run economy. The best items are made by in game crafters, who either get the resources themselves or contract out to killers/explorers.
Player cities, player housing buildable mostly anywhere that terrain and distance from npc centers allow. There must be a cap however on the number of structures an account holder can have otherwise you have areas suffering from urban sprawl (Dantooine in SWG is a good example of this)
Less of the directed go here do this then go to the next place and talk to so-n-so for more tasks to do. Let the players decide for themselves.
Dynamic servers - where the players actually have an effect on how the game plays out for everyone. Not talking spawn camping but, have the game dynamically change to adjust for the playstyles of the gamers in aggregate. SWG had come close to this with the npc towns shifting factions depending on the number of "points" earned by the players. Also, the cries of alderaan story arc did this very well also.
Plenty of live events hosted by the devs, please refer to the above cries of alderaan reference.
A gameworld where the most important story being told is that of the player, not of the npcs.
Sigh, just keep on dreaming. There are only 2 MMORPGames: the good ones in which you have F U N and the bad ones in which you don't have F U N. If you are into one where 0.2% of the people have fun. No problem. Just don't call them sandboxes all over the place, because there aren't any. Only fanboys who manupulate the definitions to justify their frustrated thoughts. UO is a laugh compared by todays standards. In fact its designer made one of the worst MMORPG's back in 2007, so ... keep on dreaming.
Brad McQuaid did not work on UO, he was the "brains" behind everquest. :P
Sigh, just keep on dreaming. There are only 2 MMORPGames: the good ones in which you have F U N and the bad ones in which you don't have F U N. If you are into one where 0.2% of the people have fun. No problem. Just don't call them sandboxes all over the place, because there aren't any. Only fanboys who manupulate the definitions to justify their frustrated thoughts. UO is a laugh compared by todays standards. In fact its designer made one of the worst MMORPG's back in 2007, so ... keep on dreaming.
my old 286 DX2 66 with 32MB ram and 256 MB HD is also a laugh by today's standard, however 15 years ago it rocked. when talking about success, you need to put things into their own timeframe and how successful they were back in their prime.
Thats like saying howitzers are better than cattapults - well off course they are, however there is like 1500 years of development between them.
Players want/need to achieve/progress - People play games for a variety of minor reasons, but most importantly it comes down to "fun". Social interaction aside (as there are some people who play MMO's just to chat with others), there would be no reason to play a game that didn't offer some kind of progression. In an MMO, players create a character/characters and expect them to change over time in their persistant world. This is one of the main things that sets apart the MMO genre from others such as the FPS games like Halo, etc. Without character development and progression of some kind, there is nothing to demonstrate a reward for the time invested in the game. In single-player games this is also true. There may often be a number of ways to achieve your goals or to progress, but there is ALWAYS something to achieve or obtain. Even in a FPS game the player gains a "fun" factor through defeating others via skill or tactics (or cheating). But in the mythical "sandbox" MMO, players should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want without the "restrictions" of levelling, points, advancement, etc.
I think you're off base on what a sandbox game is.
Most people agree that SWG, pre-screw up, was a sandbox game.
How did you make Jedi in that game? You grind all the skills to max. There can be plenty of progression is a sandbox GAME.
If it's just a SANDBOX with no game, then that would be what you are describing. You can run around as a panda with a space alien in the desert by an oasis, or you can be a star in the Universe chatting with others Stars about esoteric and existential matters.
Sure, Second Life is a SANDBOX, but not so much game. I think most of the MMORPG players are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a box of sand.
Would be nice if someone actually posted what exactly a Sandbox Mmo is , because I'm sure most Mmo's have some Sandbox element to them at least. So how about a Sandbox Mmo checklist from one of you experts out there ?
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
Gameplay suitable for all player types: Socializer, Killer, explorer, achiever, etc etc etc.
Loosely defined classes- Allow the players to make their own classes from an available pool of skillsets.
Wide open game world. No restrictions on where you travel sure players may get wtfpwnt by some snarling nasty beastie but thats part of exploration.
tools to allow the community to run events from tournaments to weddings
100% player run economy. The best items are made by in game crafters, who either get the resources themselves or contract out to killers/explorers.
Player cities, player housing buildable mostly anywhere that terrain and distance from npc centers allow. There must be a cap however on the number of structures an account holder can have otherwise you have areas suffering from urban sprawl (Dantooine in SWG is a good example of this)
Less of the directed go here do this then go to the next place and talk to so-n-so for more tasks to do. Let the players decide for themselves.
Dynamic servers - where the players actually have an effect on how the game plays out for everyone. Not talking spawn camping but, have the game dynamically change to adjust for the playstyles of the gamers in aggregate. SWG had come close to this with the npc towns shifting factions depending on the number of "points" earned by the players. Also, the cries of alderaan story arc did this very well also.
Plenty of live events hosted by the devs, please refer to the above cries of alderaan reference.
A gameworld where the most important story being told is that of the player, not of the npcs.
Great post severius, now which current Mmo's do think would check all your boxes ? (or some of them at least .)
Would be nice if someone actually posted what exactly a Sandbox Mmo is , because I'm sure most Mmo's have some Sandbox element to them at least. So how about a Sandbox Mmo checklist from one of you experts out there ?
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
It easy to define a Sandbox MMO.
Sandbox MMO =
Endless opinions to the player (No set path in advancement - Could advance without ever killing a single thing)
Open world, no restrictions (no instances, no invis walls)
player built everything (crafting)
no classes or levels (skill based)
Most MMos have some kind of sandbox element but non have a full sandbox. Full freedom, no restrictions.
Freedom = Sandbox MMO. (most MMOs today do not allow total freedom.)
The best way to define a sandbox game is to use it's name. MMOs are still games at their heart, just like the ones we used to play when we were little.
Think of Sandbox MMOs kinda like the sand box in a kids playground. There's all this sand and lots of space for you. There's even a few tools to help you mold the sand into various shapes. The point of it is that once you get there, YOU have to come up with the ideas of what you want to do in the game. You have to decide whether you want to build a castle, set up a race track, whatever. You can go basically anywhere you want, and play the game in pretty much any way you want. There's no real progression, and no real rules. There's a few tools and mechanics to help you get around (ie shovels and pails and shapes for making sandcastles/etc), but generally you're left to create alot of it yourself.
Essentially the developers build the sand box, throw in a few toys to help you out, and say "Alright you have fun".
Personally I think that while Sandbox MMOs can be considered "successful" from a business standpoint, I don't think they can ever been the big successful mmo's we see out there like WoW or any other 1 Million+ subscriber base. The inherent problem with sandboxes is they're charging you a monthly fee to basically make your own fun. If I'm paying a monthly fee, I want the fun to be handed to me on a silver platter thank you very much. If the game isn't inherently fun, why am I playing it? Making the game fun myself seems too much like work.
I'd much rather have the play-structure/jungle-gym style of mmo. Where I can climb the ladder, swing around on monkey bars, go down the slide, and all these other things that are fun and have already been provided for me. Then atleast I feel like I'm getting my 15 bucks worth. Honestly that's all we're doing with MMOs, is renting some fun each month. We shouldn't have to pay to make our own fun.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Would be nice if someone actually posted what exactly a Sandbox Mmo is , because I'm sure most Mmo's have some Sandbox element to them at least. So how about a Sandbox Mmo checklist from one of you experts out there ?
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
Very interesting but it does seem that there are a whole lot of peeps that disagree dont you think ?
Great post severius, now which current Mmo's do think would check all your boxes ? (or some of them at least .)
No current mmo has all of the elements I posted. Maybe Vanguard has the idea of a big world but it is (or at least was last time I looked in on it) completely and totally heartless. None of them cater to all player types. 99.9999% of them only cater to Killer mentality (whether pvp or pve).
Eve-Online I think has more of them covered than any other.
-Loosely Defined Classes, variety of skillsets
-Player run economy
-No real "quest hubs" that send you on quests then direct you to the next one.
-And the player's stories are central to the game rather than the npc's.
so 4 of 10 aren't too bad but still falling quite a bit short.
Sigh, just keep on dreaming. There are only 2 MMORPGames: the good ones in which you have F U N and the bad ones in which you don't have F U N. If you are into one where 0.2% of the people have fun. No problem. Just don't call them sandboxes all over the place, because there aren't any. Only fanboys who manupulate the definitions to justify their frustrated thoughts. UO is a laugh compared by todays standards. In fact its designer made one of the worst MMORPG's back in 2007, so ... keep on dreaming.
You're calling people blind? lol....
I left UO the day they announced their first expansion. I realized at that point that it would no longer be sandbox (I didn't know what the hell sandbox meant back then, but that's not the point), so I cashed out and sold half of Napa Valley's real-estate for $1500 (all stolen), along with my account. Later on I played some shards, but they weren't able to replicate some of the things that made that game fun, which I honestly don't know myself, but something is missing.
THE ONE AND ONLY PROBLEM IS!!!!:
MMO's evolve (I perfer to call it de-volve). The publishers always feel that something can be done that can earn them more $$$. So, they introduce new things, that some ass-clown that didn't even work on the original game, that completely don't fit with the layout of the game. It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle that is a picture of 2 puppies, and then finishing off a corner with a picture of Satan. It just doesn't work.
Really the only thing that can be done to a Sandbox game is to add more options to the existing layout of the game; expand on what's already there (More weapons, armor, items, buildings, etc.). Most of the balancing should be done before the game is even realeased. Hell, UO didn't even have any balancing done for the first year, and melee/range/magic seemed to stand an even chance in combat.
Basically what I'm getting at is somebody needs to release a good Sandbox game and leave it the hell alone!!!!!
Would be nice if someone actually posted what exactly a Sandbox Mmo is , because I'm sure most Mmo's have some Sandbox element to them at least. So how about a Sandbox Mmo checklist from one of you experts out there ?
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
Zordorf, just because you might not have the mental facilities or patience to play chess doesn't mean its a bad game. Same goes for sandbox games, such as EVE. Not everyone can play them, that's ok, you may stick to those games with "clear rules and mechanics".
Sandbox games actually have them too, but they're not stuck in your face, nor wrapped around a bunch of artificial walls that fence you in.
What you define as the best gameplay only applies to you. If you really understood EVE and how to enjoy it, you'd find an amazing gaming experience. But if you don't thats fine too, because there certainly are plenty of games like your favorite WOW to play, and you can be happy with the game directing your movements and actions.(You only think you have options, truth is, you have very few but fail to recognize that fact)
You've proven in the past you really don't understand sandbox gameplay or concepts, you actually put forth in another thread that WOW was a sandbox, which even most WOW supporters would never agree with.
Can a sandbox MMO every equal WOW? Probably not, there's just not enough gamers out there who value freedom of gameplay, nor have the ability to make their own way in the world. They prefer to be lead by the developers from end to end, as its more relaxing and less taxing on them. (more of a game, and not a job).
But I think EVE and other games are indicators that there is a good niche market for this type of gameplay and I predict one day soon we'll see another reasonably successful sandbox game. (under 500K subs)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you want just a "sandbox" you can go play Second Life, and make up your own rules and do anything you want to. You want to be an amoeba that shoots nuclear missiles out of your butt? Ok, you can be that. That's a pure sandbox. There is no game.
What MMORPG players want is not a pure sandbox. They want a GAME that has some sandbox elements. If there are no rules, then there is no game.
If there are rules, then it's not a pure sandbox.
That is simple not true. MMORPG players want a lot of different things, so you cannot group them in one big group.
There are 3 groups right now on MMORPG.
Group 1 - Waiting on a real MMORPG to hit the market again
Group 2 - Will never find a game they like due to not know exactly what they want
Group 3 - Currently content with the MMO market
A sandbox game can have rules, just like RL. RL is a sandbox with a rule set. You can do anything you want in RL but there are consequences for every action.
That is what I want to see in a Sandbox MMO. Allow the player to do anything they want including set laws/rules for player run cities. Create real consequences for every action the player makes, good or bad, right or wrong.
Its really not that hard to understand what a sandbox MMO would be like. Just think of RL and add a theme (Fantasy, Sci Fi whatever).
That is simple not true. MMORPG players want a lot of different things, so you cannot group them in one big group. There are 3 groups right now on MMORPG. Group 1 - Waiting on a real MMORPG to hit the market again Group 2 - Will never find a game they like due to not know exactly what they want Group 3 - Currently content with the MMO market A sandbox game can have rules, just like RL. RL is a sandbox with a rule set. You can do anything you want in RL but there are consequences for every action. That is what I want to see in a Sandbox MMO. Allow the player to do anything they want including set laws/rules for player run cities. Create real consequences for every action the player makes, good or bad, right or wrong. Its really not that hard to understand what a sandbox MMO would be like. Just think of RL and add a theme (Fantasy, Sci Fi whatever).
Another poster .... another defintion.
Everyone agrees at least on that: As much defintions as there are users ))
And EVE is just but one defintion.
No almost all the defintions that I have ever seen posted have a common theme... FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
Sandbox MMO = FREEDOM OF CHOICE
Think of Legos (come on everyone has played with Lego's)
If you open a box of legos and follow the directions you will end of with the item pictured on the box.
I.E. Following a set path to a set finish point.
Now if you take the same box of legos and throw the directions out and just build, almost everyone will end up with a different item
I.E. All players start with the same pieces but all follow their own path to their own finish.
There is no reason to even respond to your points. There are plenty of sandbox mmo's that have succeeded. I guess if I decided to just ignore them, it might be worth arguing with you.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
Gameplay suitable for all player types: Socializer, Killer, explorer, achiever, etc etc etc. Loosely defined classes- Allow the players to make their own classes from an available pool of skillsets. Wide open game world. No restrictions on where you travel sure players may get wtfpwnt by some snarling nasty beastie but thats part of exploration. tools to allow the community to run events from tournaments to weddings 100% player run economy. The best items are made by in game crafters, who either get the resources themselves or contract out to killers/explorers. Player cities, player housing buildable mostly anywhere that terrain and distance from npc centers allow. There must be a cap however on the number of structures an account holder can have otherwise you have areas suffering from urban sprawl (Dantooine in SWG is a good example of this) Less of the directed go here do this then go to the next place and talk to so-n-so for more tasks to do. Let the players decide for themselves. Dynamic servers - where the players actually have an effect on how the game plays out for everyone. Not talking spawn camping but, have the game dynamically change to adjust for the playstyles of the gamers in aggregate. SWG had come close to this with the npc towns shifting factions depending on the number of "points" earned by the players. Also, the cries of alderaan story arc did this very well also. Plenty of live events hosted by the devs, please refer to the above cries of alderaan reference. A gameworld where the most important story being told is that of the player, not of the npcs.
So by this definition WOW/TBC is a complete sandboxed game and a very good one at that !
1. Professions,enchanters, gatherers, healers, warriors, twinks, vendors, manipulating of the auction houses.
2.With my lvl 70 paladin I can take the role of a pure tank, a pure healer, a pure fighting machine with the cost of 50 Gold (meaning doing 4 quests or sell some selfmade stuff on the auction house). Respeccing is a breeze these days in Wow. Respeccing every day.
3.Wide open? How about a personal flying mount you can fly ANYWHERE and land anywhere in TBC/Outland without ever seeing a loading screen on that land. And at night you go to an opera to watch the lastest shows ...
4. In fact last week I assisted in a wedding in our guild. In fact there was some organisation required as there were another couple at the Cathedral of Light that very same night. Everyone was wearing a tox and afterwards we had a party in Goldshire.
My picnic basket (changing world envirmont???) was a success together with the BBQ and drinks we brought along.
5. Economy? The best Wow crafted items these days in TBC are always on par with the general dungeons progress on the servers. Today blacksmiths craft the gear that suits 95% of all people (only the top 2 gears are reserved for raids in BT.Sun and or super PvP champs with 2200 + ratings).
6.Not in the game at the moment but WotLK will have full construcatbel siege systems in open zones.
7. End game is completely free. No lineair design whatsoever, not even the end levels from 60 to 70. You can choose what you want at 70. In fact from Nov till Mar I only did BG's and my professions just to have a nice PvP title of Justicar.
8. Already present in two forms in Wow (one scripted and one dependant of world PvP. Will get a big extension in WotLK BTW, where the possesion and destructions off Keeps will influence the world.
9. Live events:?TOO numerous to even sum them up. Both from the designers as from the players themselves.
10.Of course MY paladin has its own story HOW I downed mobs and players in thousands of fights or crafting hours to have HUGE profits on the AH.
---
So 9/10 is not bad for WOW as a complete sandbox game in YOUR defintion, isn't it.
Of course if you only played Wow/TBC as a leveling experience to level to 46, you have no clue do you ? Or even worse if you never played Wow's end game after patch 2.3 you don't know what I am talking about.
1. WoW has classes - Classes cannot be in a Sandbox game.
2. Can you pally become a DPS machine? a stealth assasin? a ranged hunter? a duel wielding warrior? a caster DPS? No it cannot, your pally can only be what the game allows. You cannot create your own class.
3. But you can only fly those mounts in zones that they are allowed? How about flying across the barrens? how about exploring the clouds? How about exploring the seas? WoW is not a wide open world. WoW is a restricted world.
4. You created the wedding event, thats great but what tools did WoW bring to the table to allow that? Can you hold a wedding in a church? Does it change the charaters last name to match? Can you setup music for the wedding dance? Yes you can create your own events but the game does not help you at all with that.
5. Why cant I craft to max level without ever killing something or someone? Can i open my own store? Can I master all the crafting skills? Can I never leave town and still craft? WoW has no economy because Gold is far to easy to get and very little money sinks.
6. WoW currently has no housing, player cities, player shops.
7. WoW is the king of linuar leveling. Go talk to this guy, then quest in this area, then move to this area, then this area.... ect ect. Once you out level the barrens do you ever go back and use that zone for anything besides traveling though? Not a sandbox
8. WoW is a static world, nothing a player does effects the world at all. Nothing changes. If I long in a year from now, all the NPC would be the same in the major cities and quest would still be the same if I rolled yet another charater. NOT A SANDBOX
9.Events? Of course... this is in every game
10. Does your story effect the game world? other players? Is your story the same as every other player in the game? Can you do quest only your charater can do? Can you effect the game world by taking enemy cities? NO you cant in WoW. WoW is not a sandbox game.
So by my count WoW has 1 of 10 that makes it a sandbox.
We both know WoW is not a sandbox game but you refuse to use your brain.
Sigh, just keep on dreaming. There are only 2 MMORPGames: the good ones in which you have F U N and the bad ones in which you don't have F U N. If you are into one where 0.2% of the people have fun. No problem. Just don't call them sandboxes all over the place, because there aren't any. Only fanboys who manupulate the definitions to justify their frustrated thoughts. UO is a laugh compared by todays standards. In fact its designer made one of the worst MMORPG's back in 2007, so ... keep on dreaming.
Brad McQuaid did not work on UO, he was the "brains" behind everquest. :P
He wasn't refering to Brad McQuaid and his failure called Vanguard.
He was refering to Richard Garriott and his failure called Tabula Rasa
-----------
Back on-topic. Sandbox games were the future and are the future! Period!
World of Warcraft lured a massive playerbase into the MMORPG genre and now you see a very large portion of that same playerbase complaining, because they are bored of doing the same thing over and over again with each expansion that comes out. Wrath of the Lichking being nothing different, just another grind. This time from level70 to level80 and start the whole Epeen Epixx sad story all over again.
All MMO's till this day that tried to copy that formula have failed. lol. So there you got the WoW formula success rate right there!
Instead. Just have a look at EVE Online. Especially since Trinity and the new Faction Warfare update the subscriber numbers have skyrocketed! I am talking about 15.000 concurrent users average each night till about one and a half year ago to 39.000 concurrent users average each night today people!
And with the 'Ambulation' update coming later this year, wich will enable players to finally set food out of their ship and walk around on stations, EVE is going to get even more people into the game.
Why is it so successful and becoming more successful each day? Total freedom (till a sertain extend ofcourse. as a game without limits is impossible). You can do whatever you want in EVE. From PVE to PVP to politiics to Mining to Research to Manufacturing. It has it all.
The only thing that turns off a sertain amount of people is the time-based skill training. Some people (including me) are getting frustrated they are forced by a timer to make progress in skills. But it is just something you need to get used to it. When you are, you gonna discover the sheer beauty and ingeniality of this game.
Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU / NGE was the same, onlly difference you could train skills at your own speed and thus had total control over your skill advancement. Something I personally liked more.
Till this day I have played so many MMORPG's since Star Wars Galaxies was murdered with the CU and NGE updates, I still long to good old Star Wars Galaxies. It's still one of the best MMO's ever made (pre-CU / NGE).
- Housing (city building, starports, city halls, guild halls, crafting stations, vendor machines, cantinas, houses) was and still the best.
- Crafting system (including reverse engineering) still among the best.
- Creature Handler profession, Entertainer profession were gold and added so much fun and socialility to the game. It had one of the best communities ever.
- Exploration (badge collecting). Who doesn't remember the famous badge collection missions from Jabba the Hutt! (man they were tough, but great fun!) Or what about all those nights hunting Rancors
All I am saying, if the Core Game is right. If the right tools are there. Then a Sandbox MMO is the future!
And now give us Star Wars Galaxies 2 based on Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU / NGE!!
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
And don't start talking about Age of Conan, as selling boxes does mean jack jit in MMO's anyway. It's all about who sticks around after the first 30 days and starts paying monthly subscription fees to pay for the devs, hardware, maintainance and bandwith and continous ongoing development costs!
It's all nice and dandy to sell 700k boxes, but if over half of them quit the first month, because the game is so horribly broken and lacking, then I call that a Major failure! Not a Major success!
Players want/need to achieve/progress - People play games for a variety of minor reasons, but most importantly it comes down to "fun". Social interaction aside (as there are some people who play MMO's just to chat with others), there would be no reason to play a game that didn't offer some kind of progression. In an MMO, players create a character/characters and expect them to change over time in their persistant world. This is one of the main things that sets apart the MMO genre from others such as the FPS games like Halo, etc. Without character development and progression of some kind, there is nothing to demonstrate a reward for the time invested in the game. In single-player games this is also true. There may often be a number of ways to achieve your goals or to progress, but there is ALWAYS something to achieve or obtain. Even in a FPS game the player gains a "fun" factor through defeating others via skill or tactics (or cheating). But in the mythical "sandbox" MMO, players should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want without the "restrictions" of levelling, points, advancement, etc.
I think you're off base on what a sandbox game is.
Most people agree that SWG, pre-screw up, was a sandbox game.
How did you make Jedi in that game? You grind all the skills to max. There can be plenty of progression is a sandbox GAME.
If it's just a SANDBOX with no game, then that would be what you are describing. You can run around as a panda with a space alien in the desert by an oasis, or you can be a star in the Universe chatting with others Stars about esoteric and existential matters.
Sure, Second Life is a SANDBOX, but not so much game. I think most of the MMORPG players are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a box of sand.
If you can do WHATEVER you want, there's no game.
Where does it state that game has to be this and that? Even in second life i cannot do whatever i want , there is always that thing that i cannot do. I think it's better to leave SL out of this since it is a PURE sandbox game.
A sandbox game and a pure one are different from each other. SWG pre cu was a sandbox game but it wasn't a pure one, neither is UO , AC or EVE. They only resemble it close.
Anyway, sandbox games do not fail, the problem lies that a mmo like SWG pre cu was badly designed, it was a good game and a good sandbox mmo in my opinion but it could be way better if there was more content added and of course actually FINISHED!
What most people want is a game where u can impact it but still have that linear content into it. Most people who ask sandbox mmo, want actually a hybride. Most people who ask for a sandbox mmo, want mmo's like UO and mmo's like EVE but then on ground or maybe with more linear content.
It all depends.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
age of conan will never get the success or money investment that EVE has.
EVE has been over 5 years. Growing each month and each month getting more money.
The retain is HUGE and that is why EVE is a very succesful mmo. Box sales do not count, retain sells do. If a mmo sells 200 copies first month but lasts for 3 years with those 200 k vs a mmo that sells 1 million copies first month but dies out second month.
----------------------------------------------------------- the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
Stick to WoW, it seems to like you. We'll wait for a Sandbox, play EVE, or hope for Pre-CU SWG. We don't need our hands held through games. Thanks anyway.
To the OP: Stick to WoW, it seems to like you. We'll wait for a Sandbox, play EVE, or hope for Pre-CU SWG. We don't need our hands held through games. Thanks anyway.
Actually, the vast majority do.
Thats why even 90% of the 'sandbox' guys only want traditional MMORPGs with watered down sandbox elements. Only a tiny tiny tiny minority could handle the imagination and investment a true sandbox game would require.
And yes, I am aware that 60% of statistics are just made up.
Comments
Agreed ... even in sandbox game, the devs have to build the game and set the rules by which the world itself functions. Then give the tools that can impact that world to the players.
WoW as an example, doesn't let you do that - under no circumstance, you and your actions are able to impact the world arround you. You are 100% expiriencing the world as the developers set it up for you and you have no tools whatsoever to change it.
Eve does let you do that - your actions and the actions of your peers, can influence the overall political and economic landscape of the game.
Not saying one approach is better than the other, I played and enjoyed both in a different way. I would definitely like to see a sandbox or a quasi sandbox MMO developed by a company that has a clue, as I think there is room on the market for more. Wow's huge market success has an unfortunate result that all new major releases get developed closely folowing the model, yet none of them managed to make even a dent in the wow armor - from the simple reason that many of us figured out, but somehow the people developing(or the people with the money) are blind to it - you can never out-wow wow.
..EVE is a game where the spaceship IS your avatar btw. (although that is also a subject to change in the near fuure)
Get out of here troll. Go back to your amusement park called WoW. I am doing this right, right?
OP is also a horrible troll because he "CAN NOT" succeed in spelling "cannot".
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Brad McQuaid did not work on UO, he was the "brains" behind everquest. :P
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
my old 286 DX2 66 with 32MB ram and 256 MB HD is also a laugh by today's standard, however 15 years ago it rocked. when talking about success, you need to put things into their own timeframe and how successful they were back in their prime.
Thats like saying howitzers are better than cattapults - well off course they are, however there is like 1500 years of development between them.
I think you're off base on what a sandbox game is.
Most people agree that SWG, pre-screw up, was a sandbox game.
How did you make Jedi in that game? You grind all the skills to max. There can be plenty of progression is a sandbox GAME.
If it's just a SANDBOX with no game, then that would be what you are describing. You can run around as a panda with a space alien in the desert by an oasis, or you can be a star in the Universe chatting with others Stars about esoteric and existential matters.
Sure, Second Life is a SANDBOX, but not so much game. I think most of the MMORPG players are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a box of sand.
If you can do WHATEVER you want, there's no game.
That would be kind of hard I think but I will give it a try.
Great post severius, now which current Mmo's do think would check all your boxes ? (or some of them at least .)
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
It easy to define a Sandbox MMO.
Sandbox MMO =
Endless opinions to the player (No set path in advancement - Could advance without ever killing a single thing)
Open world, no restrictions (no instances, no invis walls)
player built everything (crafting)
no classes or levels (skill based)
Most MMos have some kind of sandbox element but non have a full sandbox. Full freedom, no restrictions.
Freedom = Sandbox MMO. (most MMOs today do not allow total freedom.)
Sooner or Later
The best way to define a sandbox game is to use it's name. MMOs are still games at their heart, just like the ones we used to play when we were little.
Think of Sandbox MMOs kinda like the sand box in a kids playground. There's all this sand and lots of space for you. There's even a few tools to help you mold the sand into various shapes. The point of it is that once you get there, YOU have to come up with the ideas of what you want to do in the game. You have to decide whether you want to build a castle, set up a race track, whatever. You can go basically anywhere you want, and play the game in pretty much any way you want. There's no real progression, and no real rules. There's a few tools and mechanics to help you get around (ie shovels and pails and shapes for making sandcastles/etc), but generally you're left to create alot of it yourself.
Essentially the developers build the sand box, throw in a few toys to help you out, and say "Alright you have fun".
Personally I think that while Sandbox MMOs can be considered "successful" from a business standpoint, I don't think they can ever been the big successful mmo's we see out there like WoW or any other 1 Million+ subscriber base. The inherent problem with sandboxes is they're charging you a monthly fee to basically make your own fun. If I'm paying a monthly fee, I want the fun to be handed to me on a silver platter thank you very much. If the game isn't inherently fun, why am I playing it? Making the game fun myself seems too much like work.
I'd much rather have the play-structure/jungle-gym style of mmo. Where I can climb the ladder, swing around on monkey bars, go down the slide, and all these other things that are fun and have already been provided for me. Then atleast I feel like I'm getting my 15 bucks worth. Honestly that's all we're doing with MMOs, is renting some fun each month. We shouldn't have to pay to make our own fun.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
Very interesting but it does seem that there are a whole lot of peeps that disagree dont you think ?
No current mmo has all of the elements I posted. Maybe Vanguard has the idea of a big world but it is (or at least was last time I looked in on it) completely and totally heartless. None of them cater to all player types. 99.9999% of them only cater to Killer mentality (whether pvp or pve).
Eve-Online I think has more of them covered than any other.
-Loosely Defined Classes, variety of skillsets
-Player run economy
-No real "quest hubs" that send you on quests then direct you to the next one.
-And the player's stories are central to the game rather than the npc's.
so 4 of 10 aren't too bad but still falling quite a bit short.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
If you want just a "sandbox" you can go play Second Life, and make up your own rules and do anything you want to.
You want to be an amoeba that shoots nuclear missiles out of your butt? Ok, you can be that. That's a pure sandbox. There is no game.
What MMORPG players want is not a pure sandbox. They want a GAME that has some sandbox elements. If there are no rules, then there is no game.
If there are rules, then it's not a pure sandbox.
You're calling people blind? lol....
I left UO the day they announced their first expansion. I realized at that point that it would no longer be sandbox (I didn't know what the hell sandbox meant back then, but that's not the point), so I cashed out and sold half of Napa Valley's real-estate for $1500 (all stolen), along with my account. Later on I played some shards, but they weren't able to replicate some of the things that made that game fun, which I honestly don't know myself, but something is missing.
THE ONE AND ONLY PROBLEM IS!!!!:
MMO's evolve (I perfer to call it de-volve). The publishers always feel that something can be done that can earn them more $$$. So, they introduce new things, that some ass-clown that didn't even work on the original game, that completely don't fit with the layout of the game. It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle that is a picture of 2 puppies, and then finishing off a corner with a picture of Satan. It just doesn't work.
Really the only thing that can be done to a Sandbox game is to add more options to the existing layout of the game; expand on what's already there (More weapons, armor, items, buildings, etc.). Most of the balancing should be done before the game is even realeased. Hell, UO didn't even have any balancing done for the first year, and melee/range/magic seemed to stand an even chance in combat.
Basically what I'm getting at is somebody needs to release a good Sandbox game and leave it the hell alone!!!!!
/rant
I posted already a month ago that there is NO fixed definition of a sandbox and each time someone came up with one, I proved - with WOW in hand - that each definition applied to almost all MMORPG's outthere.
Let alone the fact that IF you could - complete unlikely- come to an "all sandboxed game", chances are it would be completely UNPLAYABLE.
It's like a board wargame where players construct their own tanks, ships, combat troops completely free and change the rules accordingly.
THE BEST GAMES outthere are those with the BEST and CLEAR rules and mechanics.
Old board and miniatures wargamers know exactly what I mean.
The rest are puberty claims.
EVE is the cricket of MMO's. Everyone talks about it on receptions but no one plays it in a decent manner. Of course you have people who LIKE to look at grass grow. My time is too precious, sorry.
Zordorf, just because you might not have the mental facilities or patience to play chess doesn't mean its a bad game. Same goes for sandbox games, such as EVE. Not everyone can play them, that's ok, you may stick to those games with "clear rules and mechanics".
Sandbox games actually have them too, but they're not stuck in your face, nor wrapped around a bunch of artificial walls that fence you in.
What you define as the best gameplay only applies to you. If you really understood EVE and how to enjoy it, you'd find an amazing gaming experience. But if you don't thats fine too, because there certainly are plenty of games like your favorite WOW to play, and you can be happy with the game directing your movements and actions.(You only think you have options, truth is, you have very few but fail to recognize that fact)
You've proven in the past you really don't understand sandbox gameplay or concepts, you actually put forth in another thread that WOW was a sandbox, which even most WOW supporters would never agree with.
Can a sandbox MMO every equal WOW? Probably not, there's just not enough gamers out there who value freedom of gameplay, nor have the ability to make their own way in the world. They prefer to be lead by the developers from end to end, as its more relaxing and less taxing on them. (more of a game, and not a job).
But I think EVE and other games are indicators that there is a good niche market for this type of gameplay and I predict one day soon we'll see another reasonably successful sandbox game. (under 500K subs)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is simple not true. MMORPG players want a lot of different things, so you cannot group them in one big group.
There are 3 groups right now on MMORPG.
Group 1 - Waiting on a real MMORPG to hit the market again
Group 2 - Will never find a game they like due to not know exactly what they want
Group 3 - Currently content with the MMO market
A sandbox game can have rules, just like RL. RL is a sandbox with a rule set. You can do anything you want in RL but there are consequences for every action.
That is what I want to see in a Sandbox MMO. Allow the player to do anything they want including set laws/rules for player run cities. Create real consequences for every action the player makes, good or bad, right or wrong.
Its really not that hard to understand what a sandbox MMO would be like. Just think of RL and add a theme (Fantasy, Sci Fi whatever).
Sooner or Later
Another poster .... another defintion.
Everyone agrees at least on that: As much defintions as there are users
))
And EVE is just but one defintion.
No almost all the defintions that I have ever seen posted have a common theme... FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
Sandbox MMO = FREEDOM OF CHOICE
Think of Legos (come on everyone has played with Lego's)
If you open a box of legos and follow the directions you will end of with the item pictured on the box.
I.E. Following a set path to a set finish point.
Now if you take the same box of legos and throw the directions out and just build, almost everyone will end up with a different item
I.E. All players start with the same pieces but all follow their own path to their own finish.
Sooner or Later
There is no reason to even respond to your points. There are plenty of sandbox mmo's that have succeeded. I guess if I decided to just ignore them, it might be worth arguing with you.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
So by this definition WOW/TBC is a complete sandboxed game and a very good one at that !
1. Professions,enchanters, gatherers, healers, warriors, twinks, vendors, manipulating of the auction houses.
2.With my lvl 70 paladin I can take the role of a pure tank, a pure healer, a pure fighting machine with the cost of 50 Gold (meaning doing 4 quests or sell some selfmade stuff on the auction house). Respeccing is a breeze these days in Wow. Respeccing every day.
3.Wide open? How about a personal flying mount you can fly ANYWHERE and land anywhere in TBC/Outland without ever seeing a loading screen on that land. And at night you go to an opera to watch the lastest shows ...
4. In fact last week I assisted in a wedding in our guild. In fact there was some organisation required as there were another couple at the Cathedral of Light that very same night. Everyone was wearing a tox and afterwards we had a party in Goldshire.
My picnic basket (changing world envirmont???) was a success together with the BBQ and drinks we brought along.
5. Economy? The best Wow crafted items these days in TBC are always on par with the general dungeons progress on the servers. Today blacksmiths craft the gear that suits 95% of all people (only the top 2 gears are reserved for raids in BT.Sun and or super PvP champs with 2200 + ratings).
6.Not in the game at the moment but WotLK will have full construcatbel siege systems in open zones.
7. End game is completely free. No lineair design whatsoever, not even the end levels from 60 to 70. You can choose what you want at 70. In fact from Nov till Mar I only did BG's and my professions just to have a nice PvP title of Justicar.
8. Already present in two forms in Wow (one scripted and one dependant of world PvP. Will get a big extension in WotLK BTW, where the possesion and destructions off Keeps will influence the world.
9. Live events:?TOO numerous to even sum them up. Both from the designers as from the players themselves.
10.Of course MY paladin has its own story HOW I downed mobs and players in thousands of fights or crafting hours to have HUGE profits on the AH.
---
So 9/10 is not bad for WOW as a complete sandbox game in YOUR defintion, isn't it.
Of course if you only played Wow/TBC as a leveling experience to level to 46, you have no clue do you ? Or even worse if you never played Wow's end game after patch 2.3 you don't know what I am talking about.
1. WoW has classes - Classes cannot be in a Sandbox game.
2. Can you pally become a DPS machine? a stealth assasin? a ranged hunter? a duel wielding warrior? a caster DPS? No it cannot, your pally can only be what the game allows. You cannot create your own class.
3. But you can only fly those mounts in zones that they are allowed? How about flying across the barrens? how about exploring the clouds? How about exploring the seas? WoW is not a wide open world. WoW is a restricted world.
4. You created the wedding event, thats great but what tools did WoW bring to the table to allow that? Can you hold a wedding in a church? Does it change the charaters last name to match? Can you setup music for the wedding dance? Yes you can create your own events but the game does not help you at all with that.
5. Why cant I craft to max level without ever killing something or someone? Can i open my own store? Can I master all the crafting skills? Can I never leave town and still craft? WoW has no economy because Gold is far to easy to get and very little money sinks.
6. WoW currently has no housing, player cities, player shops.
7. WoW is the king of linuar leveling. Go talk to this guy, then quest in this area, then move to this area, then this area.... ect ect. Once you out level the barrens do you ever go back and use that zone for anything besides traveling though? Not a sandbox
8. WoW is a static world, nothing a player does effects the world at all. Nothing changes. If I long in a year from now, all the NPC would be the same in the major cities and quest would still be the same if I rolled yet another charater. NOT A SANDBOX
9.Events? Of course... this is in every game
10. Does your story effect the game world? other players? Is your story the same as every other player in the game? Can you do quest only your charater can do? Can you effect the game world by taking enemy cities? NO you cant in WoW. WoW is not a sandbox game.
So by my count WoW has 1 of 10 that makes it a sandbox.
We both know WoW is not a sandbox game but you refuse to use your brain.
Sooner or Later
Brad McQuaid did not work on UO, he was the "brains" behind everquest. :P
He wasn't refering to Brad McQuaid and his failure called Vanguard.
He was refering to Richard Garriott and his failure called Tabula Rasa
-----------
Back on-topic. Sandbox games were the future and are the future! Period!
World of Warcraft lured a massive playerbase into the MMORPG genre and now you see a very large portion of that same playerbase complaining, because they are bored of doing the same thing over and over again with each expansion that comes out. Wrath of the Lichking being nothing different, just another grind. This time from level70 to level80 and start the whole Epeen Epixx sad story all over again.
All MMO's till this day that tried to copy that formula have failed. lol. So there you got the WoW formula success rate right there!
Instead. Just have a look at EVE Online. Especially since Trinity and the new Faction Warfare update the subscriber numbers have skyrocketed! I am talking about 15.000 concurrent users average each night till about one and a half year ago to 39.000 concurrent users average each night today people!
And with the 'Ambulation' update coming later this year, wich will enable players to finally set food out of their ship and walk around on stations, EVE is going to get even more people into the game.
Why is it so successful and becoming more successful each day? Total freedom (till a sertain extend ofcourse. as a game without limits is impossible). You can do whatever you want in EVE. From PVE to PVP to politiics to Mining to Research to Manufacturing. It has it all.
The only thing that turns off a sertain amount of people is the time-based skill training. Some people (including me) are getting frustrated they are forced by a timer to make progress in skills. But it is just something you need to get used to it. When you are, you gonna discover the sheer beauty and ingeniality of this game.
Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU / NGE was the same, onlly difference you could train skills at your own speed and thus had total control over your skill advancement. Something I personally liked more.
Till this day I have played so many MMORPG's since Star Wars Galaxies was murdered with the CU and NGE updates, I still long to good old Star Wars Galaxies. It's still one of the best MMO's ever made (pre-CU / NGE).
- Housing (city building, starports, city halls, guild halls, crafting stations, vendor machines, cantinas, houses) was and still the best.
- Crafting system (including reverse engineering) still among the best.
- Creature Handler profession, Entertainer profession were gold and added so much fun and socialility to the game. It had one of the best communities ever.
- Exploration (badge collecting). Who doesn't remember the famous badge collection missions from Jabba the Hutt! (man they were tough, but great fun!) Or what about all those nights hunting Rancors
All I am saying, if the Core Game is right. If the right tools are there. Then a Sandbox MMO is the future!
And now give us Star Wars Galaxies 2 based on Star Wars Galaxies pre-CU / NGE!!
Cheers
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
LOL! 250k subscribers is a Major succes! It always has been!
Just because WoW came along and managed to get 9 million subscribers (from wich over 3/4 reside in Asia) doesn't mean that all the other MMO's are suddenly Niche!
250.000 times 15 euro = 3.750.000 euro bruto income a month. I call that a financial success!
And don't start talking about Age of Conan, as selling boxes does mean jack jit in MMO's anyway. It's all about who sticks around after the first 30 days and starts paying monthly subscription fees to pay for the devs, hardware, maintainance and bandwith and continous ongoing development costs!
It's all nice and dandy to sell 700k boxes, but if over half of them quit the first month, because the game is so horribly broken and lacking, then I call that a Major failure! Not a Major success!
Cheers
I think you're off base on what a sandbox game is.
Most people agree that SWG, pre-screw up, was a sandbox game.
How did you make Jedi in that game? You grind all the skills to max. There can be plenty of progression is a sandbox GAME.
If it's just a SANDBOX with no game, then that would be what you are describing. You can run around as a panda with a space alien in the desert by an oasis, or you can be a star in the Universe chatting with others Stars about esoteric and existential matters.
Sure, Second Life is a SANDBOX, but not so much game. I think most of the MMORPG players are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a box of sand.
If you can do WHATEVER you want, there's no game.
Where does it state that game has to be this and that? Even in second life i cannot do whatever i want , there is always that thing that i cannot do. I think it's better to leave SL out of this since it is a PURE sandbox game.
A sandbox game and a pure one are different from each other. SWG pre cu was a sandbox game but it wasn't a pure one, neither is UO , AC or EVE. They only resemble it close.
Anyway, sandbox games do not fail, the problem lies that a mmo like SWG pre cu was badly designed, it was a good game and a good sandbox mmo in my opinion but it could be way better if there was more content added and of course actually FINISHED!
What most people want is a game where u can impact it but still have that linear content into it. Most people who ask sandbox mmo, want actually a hybride. Most people who ask for a sandbox mmo, want mmo's like UO and mmo's like EVE but then on ground or maybe with more linear content.
It all depends.
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the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
I would not call a game with only around 250k subscriber a "major" success. It is successful but it is niche. Even AOC, which is panned by everyone here, sell a lot more boxes in the first week than the entire history of Eve.
age of conan will never get the success or money investment that EVE has.
EVE has been over 5 years. Growing each month and each month getting more money.
The retain is HUGE and that is why EVE is a very succesful mmo. Box sales do not count, retain sells do. If a mmo sells 200 copies first month but lasts for 3 years with those 200 k vs a mmo that sells 1 million copies first month but dies out second month.
-----------------------------------------------------------
the old days, the days of gold.
representer of euhporium, shade/amity , high member of the council.
played
UO,M59,EVE,L2,AC,GW,WOW,LOTRO,SWG pre cu/nge,COH/COV, VG,TR,L1, POTBS,Neocron 1 and 2, DAOC pre TOA and age of conan
playing: EVE ONLINE
Waiting for Earthrise, FE, bioware mmo, guild wars 2, DFO , mortal online , the chronicles of spellborn
To the OP:
Stick to WoW, it seems to like you. We'll wait for a Sandbox, play EVE, or hope for Pre-CU SWG. We don't need our hands held through games. Thanks anyway.
Actually, the vast majority do.
Thats why even 90% of the 'sandbox' guys only want traditional MMORPGs with watered down sandbox elements. Only a tiny tiny tiny minority could handle the imagination and investment a true sandbox game would require.
And yes, I am aware that 60% of statistics are just made up.