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Another Permadeath Rant
geld
Member Posts: 129
As I watch with now fleeting interest over the new wave of mmorpg's I feel sorrow for all of the revolutionary virtual world concepts that have fallen to the wayside.
While the gaming community majority looks for something different, new concepts that could revolutionise the industry are often dismissed, for the large part due to naysayers who can't conceptualise anything too far outside of their chosen niche.
I have heard all of the arguments against permadeath, most arguments generally stem around how annoying it would be to lose your precious time investment (your character). Believe me, I understand this argument, I have played many of the standard linear advancement mmorpgs and I understand how much of a time investment these games require in order to experience all of the content. While I understand it, I also hope people can understand how this is not an argument against permadeath at all.
There are a lot of people who like to bring this up every time permadeath is mentioned, stating that losing your character will annoy people, so they will end their subscrition and the game will fail. To all of these people I say get over yourselves.
Lets face it, if you're happy with what the mmorpg genre is offering now then you are very easy to please. There will always be more WoW clones released to cater to you, you can always go back to killing endless numbers of mindless, generic enemies and as you move from game to game you can enjoy the 'new challenges' you face as now your new character is green and kills with a bow instead of a sword.
Yes, your online rpg/chatroom/treadmill will always be there and will be released in every single different variation you can concieve of. So rest assured, the concept of a permadeath mmorpg does not threaten to interfere with your mmorpg needs.
So why bother? Why must you insist on trying your best to convince game designers that this concept will never work. You are not the target market for a permadeath mmorpg/virtual world anyway. Plus who knows, one day you might log into your chosen mmorpg and realise that ultimately your character is worthless. You may realise the only thing worth anything is the experiences/memories that remain long after the game has lost it's worth to you and your character has been deleted. You may realise you can have these experiences in a permadeath based game, and these experiences will just be even more intense and memorable. Perhaps then your opinion on the subject may change, or perhaps not.
Either way, feel free to state your opinion on the subject, but taking it to the next level and trying to convince people a concept will not work because you can't conceptualise it is crossing the line.
I will continue to feel sorrow for the unfortunate demise of the only game that catered to my genre, Trials of Ascension. Perhaps one day another company will have the guts to design a game of this caliber, and I sincerely believe they will find that this niche market is larger and more profitbale than anyone has anticipated.
To all those who argued to the teeth against the concept of permadeath, thank you for shattering my hopes and dreams.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Comments
I really don't think there are enough permadeath fans to support a full permadeath game but, if enough self-imposed permadeath guilds get up and running in current games then future games will be more likely to add permadeath options/servers to the mix.
List of Permadeath Guilds in Dungeons & Dragons Online:http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Permadeath_Guilds
There are also many small in-guild and static permadeath groups scattered throughout the servers.
DDO has a healthy permadeath player population that only grows as more players hit the cap with their 10th, or 11th character. But still nowhere near enough to support a permadeath server.
--
DDO Permadeath guilds
Hopefully you can find a game that gives you what you want, but I will not play a game with forced permadeath.
LOL could you imagine haveing perma death ina game where they spawn camp and camp the zone in areas? It would be ridiculous and the game would fail harder and faster then SWG:NGE
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Any game you can play Permadeath really. You die you log out n delete your char...viola permadeath. As stated in another post...if it was full pvp then all you would get is a bunch of low lvlers ganking newbies as they enter the world...how much fun would that be.
" Create new char....step into wonderful new world....oops ganked...dead...Create new character....step into wonderful new world...oops ganked... dead....Create a new........and it goes on"
Unless it was of course a total PvE world then that wouldn't happen...but I imagine those that would want permadeath would want the FFA PvP servers.
Mythos has a perma death character feature, and its quite popular. I have yet to do it because I find it would be massively annoying and a massive waste of time to die and lose everything.
So I disagree with the OP in that regard, but disagreements are fine.
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
Perma-death would only make sense if the game mechanics for combat and general play were radically different than what we're use to. For example, as much as I hate losing a commanding unit in Dawn of War (WH40K) I don't fuss over it, even if it sets back my plans back a little while in a campaign. What I find is that it allows me to learn, especially since after a certain time I can reorder another commander unit with little issue. If perma-death was treated similarly where units could be lost, but still replaced then I would see it as a reasonable idea. But, to state that it is necessary for existing MMOs is insane as none of the titles that currently exist treat death as a hard thing to achieve, in fact it's very easy to die even in WoW. So punishing players with perma-death is a bit stupid for both devs and players. If you want a hardcore game mode, I'm all for it, but don't expect everyone to flock to it in current titles at all. Present a new title that can do it and see if the developers are keen on the idea of a hardcore/perma-death mode. Otherwise, stop trying to shoe horn a single game mechanic onto a system of game mechanics that are not compatible.
-- Brede
There's a very simple reason why most companies will not offer strict permadeath games-- it's a customer service nightmare. The moment that there's a lag spike, or the server crashes, or some other technical snafu happens leading to a character's death, that's when people will start to /petition and rant about having their characters restored because they died unfairly.
No company in their right mind wants to deal with that. Ergo, no forced permadeath games.
You're still free to do what you like in your own games, though. As others have noted, there are permadeath guilds in DDO, and it's possible to make your own permadeth rules by logging out and deleting your characters when they die. No one is stopping you from voluntarily adhering to permadeath rules. Just don't expect companies to force it on paid subscribers, at least not for any major title.
I would try a game with permadeath. It could be fun as hell..but..it could probably suck just as well.. It would be bad to keep a char alive for a month only to get ganked by a mob of noob chars. It could be fun though if they had to pack the same amount of gold or something that you was packing in order to attack you.
There is only one argument against permadeath honestly.
It doesn't appeal to a large subset of the player base compared to a non-permadeath situation.
End of story.
A fairly popular mud I worked for (~300-500 concurrent) had two servers, a permadeath server and a regular server. We opened the permadeath server because of perceived demand by the player base. After the initial rush to the server as "something new", it fell out to about 25 accounts playing it regularly. We sent around a questioner to anyone that had played on both servers more than 1d played time and asked why they weren't playing there and the answer was A) No fun to lose everything,
Griefing, C) Unreliable Network Connections/Lag.
Things haven't changed much.
Edit: Vanguard tried to appeal to the "hardcore" set of players... and well we know how that turned out. If it had been permadeath they would have a fraction of the players they have now.
Shadus
all games have permadeth - its called the delete button
Technology would have to improve greatly before perma-death could be a viable option. To many variables can go wrong that could possible end up with the player dieing at no fault of their own. Server crashes, disconnects, lag spikes and many other technical issues come to mind. Perma-death with todays technology would result with GMs being so overwhelmed with wrongful death complaints that they would have time for little else.
Also at this point in time the perma-death crowd is a very small niche market. I doubt that a game forcing perma-death on the player base could be economically viable. Making such a game in todays WoW based MMO environment would be economical suicide so I seriously doubt it will happen. Maybe if they had it as an option at character creation but then you would have people saying that it isn't fair because all aren't under the same game rules even though it would be the player's choice to subject themselves to perma-death.
Although I'm not totally against perma-death if that's your thing I don't see it happening in todays MMO market. The market landscape and the technology behind it would have to greatly change before it could be a viable option.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
100s of players re looking for a nice perma-death mmorpg. You only ve to see how many players re in games like www.barafranca.com , for example.
My friends & me re looking for a perma-death mmorpg many months ago... We founded Mythos or Shaiya, with perma-death accounts, but no with perma-deaths exclusive servers.
For the inconveniences you say:
- Lag Problem.- Fixed in that games with a true connection=can die/player lag= player cant die
- Staying Players .- Versions should stay 6-10 moths, then reset and new version.
A perma-death mmorpg dreamer opinion
Clan Hispania
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
Blessings,
I think Kine is looking for a system that monitors lag and prevents player death while there is lag.I personally don't think lag would be a huge deal, I can see other petty complaints coming up though. My suggestion would be a check box in player creation that marks this character as a Perma Death character. Doing this might yield better loot, more exp and/or extra skill sets. There would be a reason, other than sadism, to play that type of game, and yet if you didn't want to play that way, fine. I still say though, that the best death system I've seen is in EVE where, basically, you loose gear when you die. This could be done in a non space ship flying game as well. Say when you respawn, oops, your sword broke when you hit the ground, or your armor set was completely shredded in your brush with death.
While the concept of permadeath is not as horrid as some make it out to be, the current conditions on the net make it an absolutely no-no for any developer.
How do you deal with deaths due to lag and disconnects? I know I have at least one a week no matter what game I play. That would be a complete nightmare for any developer to deal with such problems and that issue alone guarentees no game will solely support such a concept. As to making provisions for lag and disconnects, that could be a hackers dream, too easy to abuse such a system.
A lot of the ISP's are secretly prioritizing packets and yours can get left in the dust. While this ISP behavior has been discussed in Congress, there is no big movement to do anything about it.
So while your search is noble it is completely unpractical due to the current enviroment today.
A LOT of people mention lag as the big reason that permadeath won't work, too afraid that they may die to something out of their control. If you are too worried about losing your character/loot than I'm not so sure permadeath is what you are looking for. Shit happens, if you play permadeath you WILL die to lag or a game bug at some point, call it the wrath of god if you like I'm sure you've pissed off a few of them during your adventures.
I've deleted several characters that I had been working on for over a year, a level 10 cleric (16 level cap in DDO right now) due to a game bug recently. The loss of gear and levels meant nothing because while getting to the level cap some day would be nice, the real fun is just in playing the game with others that share my playstyle. I've been in group wipes where everybody laughed about it because we went out with a bang (a botched rescue of a guildie that fell off a cliff).
The biggest hurdle in getting permadeath into more games is the players.
--
DDO Permadeath guilds
Having some sort of monitoring system that detects when you are 'lagging' and prevents you from perma-death is not feasible. All a person has to do is determine what the threshold is on the monitering system. Then they setup a router or firewall that will cause themselves to 'lag'. This their character doesn't die.
If you are running the game in windowed mode you could even use other software to determine your health bar (via the hex color at that pixel) and make the firewall give you 'lag' whenever you are a below a certain amount of health. You could then run around ganking people without fear of losing your own character. Then, when everyone is doing the same thing, it becomes pointless.
If you want permadeath, you can't have any exceptions. If there are any exceptions, you leave yourself open for both complaints and exploitation. Not saying I am for or against it, just pointing out the flaws in the systems.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I liked their perma-death over time idea. 100 lives to lose (or 50 or whatever the final decision would have been) and then you perma-die. I could say a lot of good things about that but what's the point?
Why did Trials of Ascension die? I think Brax's Mom caught him staying up late in the basement and grounded him. Heh, oh that's just mean of me. But seriously, although I liked a lot of the ideas I'm not sure if there was ever a real game-in-progress behind the webstie.
I think Permadeath could work for something like a Cthulhu game where it's a survival game and due to a build up of insanity, or curse or disease etc. characters are probably unlikely to go on forever.
It would be good if you could deposit items, books, money etc in some kind of vault so when you die you could access these items with a new character, unless of course you were silly enough to have them on you when you were devoured by some unspeakable horror. Like the younger brother, son or nephew picking up the family secrets.
Any new character would lack skills, even if they have access to kit, and so would have to team up with other players etc. Most of the older players would have suspect sanity so there would be benefits to having all types of players in a group.
I would certainly like a game where a new player could actually team up with 'high-level' players and again this could work in some form of survival based game. I also don't see why a raise skill could not be an option in a permadeath game in some cases if it fitted the spirit of the game.
Back when I played old skool Cthulhu, I had a character that had survived about 5 major encounters. I effectively retired the character because he was on the edge of sanity and I knew he would probably die soon. In a permedeath game it would be good if the game mechanics dictated that characters retreated into crafting or something in the background, perhaps serious injuries could be permanent too. Imagine that you don't die, but you lose a leg or something.
I personally don't like the idea that a few characters that were levelled rapidly in the first few weeks of the game become uber-gankers that run round culling the newbies to ensure their god-like status. Only those at the top would play that game for long. I think a permadeath game has to carefully design elements so a new player can have fun and a seasoned player is always aware that death is possible at any time and does not immediately mean all the fun has stopped.
Maybe i can ask one question that may sum up why you can't understand how permadeath is bad and will never be accepted.
We like to play MMORPG's not just MMO's ,so you realize the RPG stands for role playing games?How do people role play permadeath?Not all role playing has to be centered around permadeath,some may like it MOST will not.They want to role play there favourite class/job/character whatever and some just like to fantasize and ride mounts or have pets.When you understand the concept of playing an RPG,then you realize why permadeath has no part of it.If someone enjoys playing a necromancer then i guess death has a part ,but again it won't be permanent as necros come back to life.
It's not a matter of people getting over themselves,it's a matter of what they want to do.They search and seek out the type of game THEY want to play...not what others think they should be playing,pretty simple really.
I guess a simple analogy would be to compare yourself and your classic car.When the car finally stops running are you ready to accept perma death for your classic hot rod,or are you going to restore it because it's what you love to ride and feel good in?Some may say screw it and sell it or trash it but many will want to restore and continue.Would you want people telling you to get over that OLD CAR and buy a new one?I guess if it's a classic vauxhaul ..lol,but not if it's a classic vette.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I would love to see an entire game revolving around a communities dealing with the permadeath concept. I agree it would add a lot to a game (and I understand its not for everyone) and be especially great for roleplayers. and people wanting real risk in their gameplay. Heres just some of my ideas of what Id like in a perma death game.
-Limited number of levels and slow rate to reach each one. For example maybe a game limited to ten levels that take the equivelent time to reach level 10 as for example level 40 in wow, but a level 10 being only strong enough to kill 4-5 level 1s at a time so nothing too extreme. THis would still add a challenge to attainign levels and getting stronger but it would not make for "uber" high levels who could slay thousands of low levels. Something to aim for but not as important as forming alliances and treaties with other groups.
-A will or safe system. Something that can be handed down to future generations or charatcers once your current one dies. Maybe limited to a few items and maximum amount of gold for example. ie. could pass down the fabled family sword that was put in the safe box before the player died. (if they died while equipped with it it would be lost/ lootable by others)
-Majority of area maybe safe (pve only ect) like cities and towns, while outer areas or selected areas between towns able to be attacked so could be plauged by bandit roleplayers and those wishing to brave death to find greater treasures.
-some measure of escape/teleport to a safe town but maybe with a weeks cooldown or the like so you get that get out of jail free card but it wont stop u from having to risk it now and again.
-An outlaw wanted list. ie, once slayed a certain number of other players are declared outlaws and killed on sight by any npc guards in cities. But with an option of somehow repaying ones debt or a "heat" meter that slowly reduces if you continue not to kill other players so that if you choose you can eventually (after a decent time or at a very large personal expense, loose that outlaw tag). This would force characters who constantly player kill to have to fend for them selves in pvp areas or group up in bandit communities so there are consequences for player killing.
I realise these ideas are not all new and some may be available to some extent but just thinking about some of them just makes me wish there were some MMOs catering to the pro permadeath community as if doen right it could offer such a great environment and game immersion.
My 2 cents to an old discussion.
It would just make people quit.
It only works when the character progression isn't too big like in diablo and even there the majority does not play it that way.
In an MMO where it can take months to develop your character it doesn't work.
Can you imagine doing the same content over and over because you got killed? It would drive people insane.
The frustration would make people quit.
Ugh you bumped an old thread and now I did too.
You can't just play a normal MMO and go by permadeath rules. The MMO needs to be catered towards having that mechanic. Granted the only MMO I would bother to play that's perma-death is something along the lines of final fantasy tactics, or having it be an option in trade of 'bonus' powers and abilities.
Granted on the other hand you can't just say MMO's suck haha it's your fault, you'll love a perma death game.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.