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Why SOE and LEC have tried so hard to silence and discredit disgruntled veteran players
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
I think this dialogue between a veteran player and Jeff Freeman sheds some light on this subject.
Vet: "You say your whole Dev team knew the NGE was doomed."
Freeman: "No, I said the whole dev team knew the NGE would not appeal to current players and that many of the current players would quit. Some knew it was doomed, and others thought marketing would carry the day."
The only way marketing would "carry the day" would be if all the players that got burned went away quietly. SOE/LEC went to a lot of trouble to make that happen too. They tried to discredit our experience in media interviews, in magazines and in the forums. In their forums our posts were edited to say entirely different things than intended, they were moved to obscurity, they were locked or deleted. People that posted their true thoughts and feelings, even respectfully were banned.
I guess you can't piss on a few hundred thousand people and then silence them after all. For everyone that spoke up, nice job. As a result, thousands got refunds on the expansion that was gutted by the nasty surprise called the NGE, some claim to have received full subscription refunds, gamers everywhere approach SOE with caution, and both SOE and LEC have recently undergone extensive restructuring. While numerous factors are related to all of these changes, veteran players who did not accept SOE and LEC's abuse quietly certainly played a role. I say, "well done all" 
Comments
The LEC marketing droids really have no clue as to how LEC is perceived in the gaming community.
They also wish away the impact of word of mouth....it can help you beyond the dreams of Nute Gunray's avarice, or it can kill you deader than Darth Vader's force choke.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
$OE and the fanbois and fanbots do not wish to hear the truth.
the truth is that the pre-cu was one of the greatest worlds ever made it was a living breathing world but $OE wanted that warcraft pie. that is why we got the lame cu and $OE turning swg into the nge.
the fact is $OE knows that we the vet player base are right. we have done everything in our power to show mmo players that they should not touch any mmo by $OE. look at all they have now 2 games on the ps3 and that is it. but yet $OE does not wish to hear the truth that if they even came out with 1 pre-cu swg server they would have tons of players in no time. if not more as most gamers are sick of the level based games that plauge our market.
that is why they have their fanbois and fanbots go on forums claiming the game is good or that something is fun. know when the game was fun fanbois? post pub-9 and before those action gamers came in with jtl. that is when swg got reviews of 5/5 10/10 5 stars and had every gaming mag and reviewer talking about how great swg was.
not only that $OE and their friends over at funCON now see who runs games. we do.
we have killed swg and are just waiting for $OE to shut it down or roll it back.
we have killed age of CONan and players are leaving CONan enmass.
gaming is going back to the way it should be our way. mark my words by next year you will see consoles like the xbox and wii dieing off. you will see a return of old school pc gaming and the end of games like warcraft and the like. and mark my words bioware when kotor online comes out will be a pre-cu game as they now see that pre-cu is the only way to go with an mmo.
we won $OE give us our world back.
Yes, it will be the way of the dodo if you have your way.
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|X| \*........*/ |X|
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You wouldn't understand
Doom! Doom!
But seriously, I would go back to SWG in an instant if they made a pre-cu server. They won't and the rest of this post is common knowledge, except the doom-saying. Which is most of it.
At the time the NGE was being developed and released, both SOE and to a lesser degree LEC, didn't give a rats ass about it's current players. Since then LEC has all but abandoned and distanced themselves from SOE and SWG for what's gonna probably be their biggest game to date with Boiware.
The NGE has always been SOE's baby, it's always been their forums and it's always been them 99.9% of the time trying their hardest to silence the vets. It hasn't worked as we all know and i too stand up and salute every other pre-cu player that has voiced their opinion and discontent for this shame that SOE pulled on the gaming community.
(stands up and claps loudly) WHOOOOT (stand innovation)
brilliant post and totally true
if games went back to what they used to be, starting with UO style going to SWG and EVE style thats the direction MMOGs should head. thats where quality resides,
the only reason EQ was a success was that it was the first 3D MMORPG to come out
the only reason WoW was a success was the name, and its addictive simplicity. anyone and their grandmother can play and have fun.
then came their copies, not such a success.
bioware better make a sandbox game or that will prove that companies do not listen to their players. they see only what they want to see.
-WoW makes 1 bazillion subscriptions lets do a game like WoW.
-but players want sandbox game style
-what? players want world of warcraft?
-no players want skill system
-world of warcraft makes millions
-yeh but other games dont
-world of warcraft makes millions
-but... other games have failed...gah...
-world of warcraft makes millions lets do a game like it but with other names..
-it wont work it will fail
-so its settled lets make world of (insert name here)
thats the impression i get from gaming companies
I agree!
I think we'll see some interesting changes to this industry in the next few years. Maybe in part to what happened to SWG, and the unwillingness of some consumers to go away quietly.
It's kind of funny that with all the hatred and anger current subscribers show towards "disgruntled vets" they forget that it has been us that has held SoE accountable. It is us who SoE needs, and I believe that is why we saw things return to SWG like Beast Master/Creature Handler, Bio-engineering, camps, etc.
Undoubtedly we've made an impact, so I for one applaud people who stand up and demand more out of their products.
Way to go! : )
I agree that SOE 's marketing team has devoted significant resources and manpower to trashing us Vets and denigrating our quite legimitate concerns.
One of the ways that they have done this is by an absolute iron-fisted refusal to accept any of editing of the wikipedia page on SWG unless it is with their approval.
Here is the page;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxies
Read it and, if you see anything inside it that you know is not true, then re-edit it to reflect the truth! The SOE team might delete your changes but if we keep going back then it will eventually reflect the truth about this game.
Yes , they work very hard to silence us Vets- case in point. If you don't know you can post on SOE Station Forum - forums.station.sony.com/station/forums/list.m since I found this out and started posting my rights to have an avatar and leave a signature have been removed and the Admin has been playing hard ball with some of my statement of fact posts like attending one of the first Fan faire.
It just goes to show that SOE Loves that Jestor!
Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
I went to the link and read the history. While I agree it left stuff out it did talk about low subs and smed denying them. Also it talked about the duck, bad press of criticisim in major news outlets and continued bugginess of the game.
It may be true these were just added and haven't had a chance to be removed. If these points have been there a while I can't see SOE allowing it.
Not every thing there was rosey. Although it seems everything they had there was from quotable sources. Doesn't mean their sources are correct. In fact some of them were gaming mags that I'm sure didn't want SOE pissed at them.
Overall I wouldn't call wiki bold faced lies. their sources left out a bunch of stuff. And maybe they won't allow a statement as fact with out one. I do find that hard to believe as I have seen things with "citation needed" but still on there other wiki topics. But there is so much that isn't there.
I would suggest the vets with freeman's and rubenfield's blogs post them. It would be interesting to see if they get deleted. After all they are sources to cite from. Shouldn't be able to delete if you have a source to back it up with.
But what do I know, I've never tried to contributed to wiki.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
I don't think that there is any denying the fact that the 'community' (us) has one helluva powerful voice. I really wish we could find a way to harness or focus that voice, or to more importantly focus the message being delivered by the voice. While I don't think any single voice should ever be left out, often times we spread our attention out too thinly and I think the heart of our message loses a lot of the necessary attention. I think that's where companies such as SOE end up coming away with the wrong message.
As much as we ('Vets') think we've won, it's still a small victory. To me, the real 'win' would be if we got what we asked for... a 'preCU' or even a 'CU' server. Perhaps the other way to win would be to have a large impact on the SWG sequel or next SW-MMORPG.
But I tip my hat to all of the Vets (I include myself in that number).
Umm... why exactly are consoles and games like warcraft going to mysteriously start disappearing from the market?
Consoles and EQ style games have been dominant for years with no signs of slowing down. Sandbox style games have only successfully been accomplished by Raph Koster and maybe one other person behind another game.
Sandbox games are not just something any company can whip up and create a success. It takes a very patient and nuturing company to walk down that scary road and a lead designer with vision and resources. Those are qualities hard to find these days. New devs entering the game market grew up on console games and collectable trading card games. They are not the generation the grew up on gameplay over graphics or sitting around tables using imagination and social skills. Nor are the social players the target market anymore.
Not that I buy into your logic that everyone is going to flock to a sandbox game in the first place. I know I would like to play one, but I don't think the rest of the market is crying for one. The numbers have spoken and I find little evidence to the contrary.
I really don't think that we Pre-CU vets had much to do with the current unpopularity of SWG NGE. The bottom line is that the game was and is bad: something that thousands and thousands of trial players who had no knowledge of Pre-CU discovered on their own, without us.
The game just flat out doesn't work for the preponderence of potential players looking for a game. I have no doubt that marketing succeeded in getting trial players within a month or so after the NGE hit. In fact, I suspect that marketing succeeded so well that a bunch of people downloaded SWG, only to reject it because of it's obvious shortcomings: too complex to manage due to the counterintuitive UI, too unpolished (it actually took a regression in terms of graphics and animation), and too many other similar products in the marketplace that give the players a better Star Wars experience.
You see, despite what we may think, naysayers and disgruntled former subscribers don't have much pull. EVE and WoW have many disgruntled former players, yet they are all easily dismissed, because the games aren't that bad.
So I'm of the opinion that we in the 'peanut gallery' here aren't responsible for this mess SWG is in. SOE may try to blame their woes on us, but if their game was any good, they wouldn't be in this position. Let's not kid ourselves though: SOE and LA did this to themselves. We as former disgruntled subscribers really couldn't do anything to help or hurt SOE.
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"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Well I always enjoy your posts Beatnik, and I agree that SOE and LEC primarily did this to themselves, I'm also certain that players' refusal to be silent countered the NGE marketing strategy. People speaking up is one of many factors related to the failure of the NGE plan. Other factors would certainly include: very little time for its development; network inability to support ultra-fast clicky combat; combat, movement and chat not working; the horrible UI; the horrible AI etc. etc. This certainly isn't a case of marketing alone dropping the ball. It's more like management, marketing, development and customer support all lined up to give the ball the shiv.
In a way two things seem to work together for me, SOE and LEC certainly broke and gutted their game, and left their customers feeling misled and abused; and at the same time all of these folks refused to keep quiet about it. So, did SOE and LEC do this to themselves? Undoubtedly. Did the public outrage regarding their actions impact the NGE's marketability? I believe it was one factor among many. I wouldn't want to magnify the importance of this factor, but I don't want to minimize it either
Thinking of buying a car, I've definitely avoided a particular model because I've heard something scandalous about it. That's the influence of consumer review. On the other hand, I've turned a deaf ear to these reviews, purchased an alleged lemon, and found that it was indeed a lemon--bitterly sour at that. That's me just trying it out, and wishing I would have listened to the peanut gallery. I'm sure that you're right; many people probably did this with the NGE. In either case, the company has only itself to blame for putting out a sub-standard product. Consumer review can play a role though, for those folks that check these things out before making their own purchase.
I agree!
I think we'll see some interesting changes to this industry in the next few years. Maybe in part to what happened to SWG, and the unwillingness of some consumers to go away quietly.
It's kind of funny that with all the hatred and anger current subscribers show towards "disgruntled vets" they forget that it has been us that has held SoE accountable. It is us who SoE needs, and I believe that is why we saw things return to SWG like Beast Master/Creature Handler, Bio-engineering, camps, etc.
Undoubtedly we've made an impact, so I for one applaud people who stand up and demand more out of their products.
Way to go! : )
Indeed, not only did we see refunds, but at the very least a partial restoration of a very few elements that did make the game enjoyable.
I also believe we'll see another StarWars MMO, and I don't think the same folks will have anything to do with managing or developing it.
Further, I don't expect many companies to repeat the NGE fiasco in the near future. It may even find its way into a textbook on how not to run an MMO.
The only marketing SOE has are the current players who swear the game is now better, with more players then ever.
Yeah, I wish their efforts for trying to discredit their one time playerbase that they viewed as expendable would get more attention from those who can take them to task about it. Not likely. Worse still will be when the revisionist history kicks in.
The vets fought the war on the only battle fields we had - forums and word of mouth. The battles were won at a cost. Time and effort that could have been spent elsewhere including, funny enough, playing their game had they not destroyed it. The creative energy that was spent waging the war is somewhat tragic really.
In the end, we help the world know what really happened but now we have a stigma that will haunt us for some time.
Frankly, I applaud those who would not be silenced or moderated. Those who did more than just sit back, take it and then go back after what happened. I also applaud those who are trying to give us the game back even if its just for a little while.
How could they believe that marketing could pull it off?
Marketing f*cked up marketing the game all the way to the NGE, when they came out in force, with LIES!
Using game footage and video of PRE-NGE, using species and locations not in the game for the players to promote the NGE game...
Heck, when SWG launched? Guess what Star Wars Magazine advertised?
Guess...
No, they did not at all Advertise Star Wars Galaxies...
LEX and SOE marketing advertised EQ2!!! In the Star Wars frigging magazine!
Star Wars fans, barely knew about SWG, up until the NGE, because..they never marketed it to the fanbase the game was made for...
And to think they thought marketing could save them from the NGE backlash heh... Morons.
Trust me...the damage we've done to SOE as a brand is a very big deal. You can't go into another mmorpg and mention SOE without getting dozens of responses about how much they suck. It looks like their platform publishing business is a bust (Vanguard and Pirates of the Burning Sea lol) and they are desperately trying things like card games and item malls to keep some money rolling in. We (the vets) have been incredibly successful in making SOE pay for the NGE.
Musta hurt them some allright, since the Smeddler has all but given up on subscription based model.. Cuz according to him, it dun work, and the money lies in koreangrinder models.
Ofcourse, he fails to see that subscription model don't work for em cuz they f*ck their games up....Making em not worth a subscription.
Just for future reference, here's the Wiki for "Standing Ovation."
I think that's the phrase you're going for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_ovation
I agree, great post, just wanted to point that out.
SWG didn't die the first time SOE pushed out a rushed half lie of a game revamp. According to Dan OM NOM NOM it actually gained subs for the first time in a long time.
I agree that the NGE doesn't have the ability to gain new subs from people that don't follow forums or know the games past. It just doesn't play well. However the game was absolutley sunk by the exodus of players and the massive negative attention it got.
Eve grew due to word of mouth and friends talking to friends. Similar to WoW. Both games also had big welcome mats for ex-swg players during the NGE, but that is another story. SWG didn't grow, because people stopped inviting friends AND the game had no ability to attract and retain new people. It is a big combination of the two.
SWG PRE-CU Slappy Reporting In:
We didn't "kill" swg:nge or make it bomb.
SOE's aweful development did.
We didn't kill swg:nge.
SOE's two weeks of BETA Testing Did
We didn't kill swg.
John Smedley did.
If any asks me about a $OE game, i tell them to try a trial to see if they like it 100% have said ty for the advice, and are playing some other none $OE game.
Players put a lot of time and effort into games, sometimes years. No one wants to invest in a game when you never know when the rug is going to be pulled out from under you and everything you owned turned into trash and everything you liked to do removed. That's all the word of mouth you need, the sheer badness of the game itself did the rest.