In principal the two things are the same. You buy or pay for something, and your experience with the purchased item ends up leaving a bad taste in your mouth. If you don't like the car analogy, feel free to use a cell phone, or a meal at a restaurant, the same principal applies.
So, you buy a game for $40 and it gets ruined 3 years later so you are mad because the game didn't give you your $40 worth...
You then buy a case of beer for $40 (I live in Canada - it's expensive to drink here) and find a dead bug in the bottom of a bottle so you never buy beer again?
your analogy is close. It would be more like buying a beer you like and drinking it for months. Then the beer company decides to change the recipe on your favorite beer, and it tastes like shit thereafter. So you dont buy it, and you dislike them for taking away the flavor of your favorite beer.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
My understanding is that some people "dislike" SOE, and a few people (a very few to be honest) "Hate" SOE (using the definitiion you have stated).
Those who "hate" them have their own issues, which dont really effect this, but those who "dislike" them, tend to do so because SOE made (in the players eyes) some bad choices concerning a few games they made.
This may seem trivial to the casual viewer watching from the sidelines, but to someone who has spent 2 years, every day, most waking hours, investing time and energy (and in some cases - money) into they game, it goes beyond the ability to just "unplug and move on". It becomes a way of life, a way to interact with friends, a way to meet lovers, a way to be part of a bigger world that is better than the normal mundane 9-5 office job people have to do. It is an escape from the realities of life, and then, when a company makes a choice to change that life, in some cases without consulting the players, it has a strong effect on the life of the person concerned.
When these choices are game changing (in the case of the SWG NGE/CU) and the dedicated players start to see their friends, their family and their population leave the game in their hundreds, the result is a huge shock, upset, and stress. The life you have invested so much time into, has been taken away from you, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Now, would this have been an isolated incident, then, maybe, just maybe, that player would have forgiven those who made the choices and moved on eventually. But, when you then learn that this has happened before in other games, you quickly lose your faith in the company as a whole. And this then leads those effected to want to avoid any games made by that company, for (possibly the very real) fear that should they begin again, and reinvest time to a new "world" that it will happen again. And for alot of people, they could not take that feeling yet again.
THIS is why you end up with "I hate SOE" posts, and "I will never play another SOE game again" posts.
I hope this makes sense and explains how people feel for you.
Now.... on the flip side of that.... SOE is a company. It is the longest running MMO company in existance. With EverQuest 1 it created the entire 3d MMO genre as we see it today. Every game you play owes something to that original game, and to the man who came up with the idea - the most hated man in the MMO world, John Smedley. Which leads to an odd paradox! Without him and his "vision" there would be no 3d MMOs in the way you know them, and yet a large percentage of the MMO world hate him for his later choices. Tough call either way.
Plus, as SOE is the longest running, and most prolific MMO company in the World (Origin / UO aside as they were bought out by EA and never made anything else), they have managed to build the largest catalogue of games out there. And, in fairness, it is only some of these that have had these problems (EQ to some extent, Planetside and SWG), whereas others (VG, EQ2, PotBS) have gone from strength to strength, with one (MxO) being rescued from closure by the company. And with their 2 new games out soon (FreeRealms and the Agency) they are continuing to create new ideas and directions for the genre as a whole.
So, the end result of all of this, is that you have on one side those who have been hurt and offended by SOE, who will bear the scars of this betrayal for a long time and "hate" the company, then on the other side the ones hounded as "fanbois" who have had no problems with their games, enjoy what SOE have done and look forward to what they plan for the future.
Neither side will back down, as neither side can truely see the point of the others argument, and so the "debate" about this company will no doubt rage on for a long long time.
Where do I sit? I have been "hurt" by SOE, but then I have also had a blast in their other games, and I respect some of the choices they have made, whilst failing to see any reasoning for others. So, I am on the fence, but enjoying what they have done with VG and EQ2 quite alot.....
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
I played SWG until the NGE and never looked back after cancelling. I had issues with the NGE but I moved on. Once I hit cancel I left it at that... I got even with SOE by not giving them my monthly subscription any longer. I have not been carrying the burden of that hate with me since I cancelled and I am just amazed that some will probably carry that hatred to the grave with them.
I am a peaceful person in the real world. I get angry when a deal turns bad or when my shipment is a month late but I don't sweat the small stuff... it all works itself out in the end.
Haters, ask yourself this and you will understand my thought process. How did SOE affect you now? How will it affect you in a week from now? How will it affect you in a month or year from now? How will it affect you in 10 years from now?
See the pattern? I am just trying to state that no matter what anger (or hatred if you truly feel it) has befallen you, time should heal all wounds. If you truly believe what SOE does today will affect you in 10 years then you should seek help because nothing should affect anyone negatively for that long a period.
Muhahahaha Bronks, SOE oversteps themselves with their customers time and time again - You must blame the cause not the affect.
Bronks...If some dude punched ya in the face and you paid this dude $15 a month just to find out you keep getting punched in the face. How long does it take you to realize the face punching is not going to stop? Would you not hate that same asshole that punched you in the face and took your money on the account of "your experience". It is not as much hate as it is not wanting to support the bastards that destroyed your favorite MMO. SOE can go to hell, Sony in general can go to hell one of the many reasons I don't own a PS3.
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
Now.... on the flip side of that.... SOE is a company. It is the longest running MMO company in existance. With EverQuest 1 it created the entire 3d MMO genre as we see it today. Every game you play owes something to that original game, and to the man who came up with the idea - the most hated man in the MMO world, John Smedley. Which leads to an odd paradox! Without him and his "vision" there would be no 3d MMOs in the way you know them, and yet a large percentage of the MMO world hate him for his later choices. Tough call either way.
Your history is faulty.
Everquest was created by Verant, not SOE. This company was headed up by Brad McQuaid, not Smed. "The Vision" was created by McQuaid.
McQuaid sold EQ to SOE... and that's when they began to attempt to change it in to a mass market cash machine, thus utterly destroying it.
My hate for SoE is something that has built up over successive MMO's and experiences with SoE. Ive played all their titles, EQ, EQ2, Planetside, Star Wars Galaxies, The Matrix Online and Vanguard, so I have a wealth of experience dealing with them. Infact EQ was my first MMO, I loved it, and SoE went from being my favorite MMO company to my most loathed.
What contributes to this has been small things that have added up to a penultimate conclusion, that SoE dont care about their customers opinions/thoughts, but only about their money.
I'll start with a timeline for each game and incident.
My first MMO was Everquest, back before the Shadows of Luclin expansion, as far as I remember it, the game was laggy, it had slow zoning times and it didnt even have sound. But thats was fine becuase it was my first MMO and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It set in stone my favor for SoE and my love for MMO's. However I started to dislike their design choices in the game, new content came only in the form of expansions, and at the rate they released them I was forking out alot of dosh just to keep up. In the end I started to dislike the gamepaly changes and I moved onto other games.
The second SoE MMO was Planetside, great game, really enjoyed it. But its suffered since its release. Very recently SoE has put it ont he back burner, with a skeleton development crew. There is virtually no development on this and game what there is, uses non-implimented beta content to cut down the work. I hate the way SoE milk games.
The third was SWG, I wasnt a big player in this game, I played several times coming and going. I amassed a small wealthy, a house, I played as a master architect. But ever since this games launch is has had problems. It hit the shelves incomplete and buggy and there are bugs that existed from beta right up to NGE. There were problems (bounty hunter fix etc) that could have been fixed instead of developing the CU & NGE and players would have been content. Their customer support was horrendous, anyone remember the teleporting to space incident? I had a friend who's city hall vanished, he couldnt build a new one so SoE told him to build a new town somewhere else! I quit well before the CU, but I heard stories and came back to see the foul ups. The bugs that were never fixed. The class balances that were promised but never occured. The forum censorships. What topped it for me was not the NGE, but how they implimented it immediately after people ordered the expansion pack. I also forget to mention how the first expansion, jump to light speed was incomplete and didnt offer all the content they originally promised. This game was a scandal before NGE and its a scandal after. SoE's complete disregard for their customers has lead me to the conclusion that they arent worthy of my cash.
SWG really caused me to think twice abuot SoE. I remember distinctly that SoE were always after more subscriptions throughout the game. I remember the Smedly banter before WoW released, how he was going to get more subs. I came to the conclusion that every change, CU, NGE, was not for the improvement of current subscribers, but in an attempt to get more outside subscribers. The ironic thing is, they now have less.
The next title was EQ2, yet another game to release buggy and incomplete, its taken 1-2 years to get it to an enjoyable standard and even during that they released an expansion. Another thing that cuases me to loath SoE, where other games now offer content for no added cost, for new content in EQ2 you have to pay for it. I didnt like EQ2, but I tried it on multiple occasions, I had a customer support issue regarding billing, paid them but didnt get my time, which was never resolved.
Matrix Online, I played at release, it wasnt a great game, made by a different company to SoE. I dont blame SoE for the state of the game, I blame SoE for milking it. Like Planetside they've got a skeletal development team doing bug fixes and implimenting very little new content. With this in mind, its very difficult to play a game in the knowledge that it will never expand or improve.
Vanguard, again not SoE's fault, my perspective has actually improved with this game. they appear to be listening to their players, fixing issues that are high on everyones mind. The games improved immensely. Their customer support is noteworthy. But I find myself struggling to subscribe for this game in the knowledge of what SoE's done in SWG, of SoE's customer support, of SoE's habit of making you pay for all new content in its yearly expansions, its habit of releasing buggy and incomplete content. If SoE has truely turned a corner, I find it depressing that its taken 6 years to do so.
I can only blame SoE's management for these problems, as its employee's get moved around often and ive heard rumors of entire development teams getting replaced on a yearly basis. More then anything, I constitute these problems to the person they've had in management since EQ, Smedly.
And thats why I hate SoE.
I dont wage hate campaigns against them, I dont put in bomb threats into their HQ, I just refuse to buy their games. I dont want to get burned again.
In principal the two things are the same. You buy or pay for something, and your experience with the purchased item ends up leaving a bad taste in your mouth. If you don't like the car analogy, feel free to use a cell phone, or a meal at a restaurant, the same principal applies.
So, you buy a game for $40 and it gets ruined 3 years later so you are mad because the game didn't give you your $40 worth...
You then buy a case of beer for $40 (I live in Canada - it's expensive to drink here) and find a dead bug in the bottom of a bottle so you never buy beer again?
your analogy is close. It would be more like buying a beer you like and drinking it for months. Then the beer company decides to change the recipe on your favorite beer, and it tastes like shit thereafter. So you dont buy it, and you dislike them for taking away the flavor of your favorite beer.
Thank you for pointing out his flawed analogy so that I didn't have to.
The OP is a troll because he has mostly only responded to "attacks".
He has not really responded to some of the well thought out posts about why so many people hate / dislike SOE. He has "selectively" chosen to skip some of the great points mentioned in this thread. He is also being overly picky with the word "hate". He is using it literally and non-literally whenever it suits him best and applying broad generalizations to everyone who has issues with SOE.
It's extremely easy to hate SOE for what they did, and just because people post about it on these, or any other forums, doesn't mean the hate has consumed their life. Would you be making this same post if I had purchased a car from Kia, it didn't work well, so I said, "I'm never going to buy a Kia ever again, and I don't like the company." Mu suspicion is that you would not. The fact of the matter is, Sony ruined something that a lot of people enjoyed because they're a ridiculous company. The fact that myself, and others, don't really want to be associated with a company that will screw over it's player base doesn't make us hate-filled or unreasonable, and I resent the suggestion to the contrary. Our reaction, I feel, is something a rational human being would do if they were abused by a company. It's a personal choice to not associate with a company that has treated us poorly in the past, and, in our eyes, they can't do anything that would redeem themselves in our eyes. It's our personal choice to feel that way, but, once again, that doesn't mean we are obsessed with the notion of SOE or anything of that nature. I find it rather amusing that you berate the people on these forums for what you deem as wasting their energy ranting about SOE, and then, in the same breath, write an entire forum post where you admit to not only reading all those posts, but then go on to make a post about how much you disagree with those posts. If there is something better that all of these "hate-filled players" can be spending their energy on, doesn't that make it doubly true for people that post about posts made by the hate-filled players? Perhaps you too, can use this thread as a discussion forum for how to better use your energy.
See? A simple discussion thread cannot occur without someone taking offense and beginning to sling mud. Let me understand (because I truly want to understand). Are you so high on moral ethics that you will intentionally pay more for a game from one store because you don't believe in the ethics of the cheaper selling store? If Walmart has something for $20 cheaper than Gamestop, do you still buy from Gamestop?
(It should be noted that Walmart uses scare tactics to get what it wants from its suppliers and has intentionally shut down may supply companies (particularly in America) that would not offer their goods to Walmart at 'rollback' prices.)
I fully understand being mad. I am mad at SOE for ruining SWG but I internallize my feelings. I am mad at SOE for what has become of EQ1 and MXO. As I stated above, the people that dislike sony REALLY dislike sony and I find it strange to keep hanging on to that anger. And the hatemongers have no problem hijacking innocent treads by people (both the next generation of MMO players and old-school MMO players alike) who couldn't care what Sony did to EQ, or SWG or anything else Sony did.
I would just like the haters to start a hate Sony thread and I can safely say I won't pop in to give any Kudos to Sony.
So what if sony ruined my SWG? I probably would have spent the monthly sub fee on alcohol or drugs anyways
My opinion had nothing to do with ethics or morals, it has to do with being a rational human being. Let me sum this up on another analogy that you'll fail to grasp:
If a man walks up to me and smashes me in the face with a hammer. I'd be pretty upset, now, if I just let him keep doing this to me, I'd be an idiot. To relate this back to SWG, SOE took something that brought a lot of people happiness and joy, it wasn't perfect, but a lot of us were happy. They then changed that thing into something horrid, and it pissed all of us off. For an analogy, see the post about beer in this thread. We know dislike, hate, loathe, etc. SOE for what they did.
Your entire problem with people disliking SOE seems to come from their use of the word "hate". You seem to accord some special significance to the word, which is your right, but that doesn't mean that your definition is the one we're all going with, and I'd be willing to bet most people go with something like "intense dislike". You admonish me for taking some supposed ethical high ground, while at the same time telling "SOE Haters" their feelings are wrong simply because you don't agree with their word choice based on your own definition of the word.
I played SWG until the NGE and never looked back after cancelling. I had issues with the NGE but I moved on. Once I hit cancel I left it at that... I got even with SOE by not giving them my monthly subscription any longer. I have not been carrying the burden of that hate with me since I cancelled and I am just amazed that some will probably carry that hatred to the grave with them.
I am a peaceful person in the real world. I get angry when a deal turns bad or when my shipment is a month late but I don't sweat the small stuff... it all works itself out in the end.
Haters, ask yourself this and you will understand my thought process. How did SOE affect you now? How will it affect you in a week from now? How will it affect you in a month or year from now? How will it affect you in 10 years from now?
See the pattern? I am just trying to state that no matter what anger (or hatred if you truly feel it) has befallen you, time should heal all wounds. If you truly believe what SOE does today will affect you in 10 years then you should seek help because nothing should affect anyone negatively for that long a period.
Muhahahaha Bronks, SOE oversteps themselves with their customers time and time again - You must blame the cause not the affect.
The biggest problem with the line of thought in Bronks' post is the fact that if SOE is given a free pass for the things they do wrong, other MMO developers/publishers are going to assume that doing the same things are acceptable to consumers. That would lead us down a very bad path.
I am not going to quote that tripe. The OP is not a complete idiot, he is however, a corporation's best friend. I guess I could meet him point for point, but evidently there is no reason to ever hate a company. They, afterall, are only doing it in the name of business.
You're too generous.
Originally posted by Bronks Please enlighten me as to what Sony did to you personally to make you hate them. Did Sony make you so addicted to Everquest back in the day that you lost your job or your spouse? (Because I'd understand that) Did your Sony PS3 start a fire and burn your uninsured house down? (Because I'd understand that) Were you a doctor in SWG who sold buffs for credits that you sold for real world money so you could pay back the mafia when the NGE came about and the mafia broke both your legs as a result? (Because again, I would understand that)
Indirectly insulting the intelligence of a group of individuals for a personal opinion and than he says..?
Originally posted by Bronks See? A simple discussion thread cannot occur without someone taking offense and beginning to sling mud.
You're right, it can't, especially when the first post in the thread does it.
Originally posted by Timberwolf0
The problem with the OP's post is a simple inability to view the issue from others perspectives. Just because the OP didnt have any issues with SOE doesn't mean others experiences are any less valid. I hate SOE because they take good games and run them into the ground, such as planetside. They cut corners and produce many shoddy games.
This is the most simplistic answer to sum up the thread. Semper9a does a more detailed explanation and a fair job. Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would need it in such detail.
I understand the principle fine, and with a restaurant, cell phone, or even a car, your point stands in that it's understandable to dislike the company that produced a poor product. The flipside is that with any of those examples, few people go to website forums and spew spiteful rhetoric about said company in droves.
I don't have the energy to go into a big long spill. If you don't get it by now then your world is just to small to understand. Your think it''s funny people feel the way they do about Sony, I feel that it's sad people can't understand how supporting con artists as a buisness hurts us all. Not just as players of games but as consumers, and our societal ethical standards.
So you, too have high ethical standards that you or your family don't support Martha Stewart or Walmart or Dell or any retailer using sweatshops to produce their merchandise or scaring small manufacturers into selling their products for a loss until they are forced to close, or...
You can't honestly quote ethical standards and wear anything that wasn't handmade or eat anything you didn't personally grow.
I do think people should use a standard when shopping to an extent, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is these company's adopt this ideal that if something isn't illegal (or isn't enforced) then anything is fine to make a buck. The mentality affects our social standard and particualrly supporting the mentality greatly effects our standard more. Today people think capitalism and free market mean that buisness has a right to do anything and people should just bend over shutup and take it. And now to many people have begun running their personal lives with the same ethic.
Now.... on the flip side of that.... SOE is a company. It is the longest running MMO company in existance. With EverQuest 1 it created the entire 3d MMO genre as we see it today. Every game you play owes something to that original game, and to the man who came up with the idea - the most hated man in the MMO world, John Smedley. Which leads to an odd paradox! Without him and his "vision" there would be no 3d MMOs in the way you know them, and yet a large percentage of the MMO world hate him for his later choices. Tough call either way.
Your history is faulty.
Everquest was created by Verant, not SOE. This company was headed up by Brad McQuaid, not Smed. "The Vision" was created by McQuaid.
McQuaid sold EQ to SOE... and that's when they began to attempt to change it in to a mass market cash machine, thus utterly destroying it.
Your history is a bit faulty as well. Verant was orinally part of 989 studios which was renamed from Sony Interactive Studios. Eventually 989 worked on console and Verant was spun out as a subsidary. Smed was brought in under the original 989 and hired Mcquaid to develop the game. Eventually the game was brought under Sony Online Entertainment.
So SOE always owned Verant.
-PoP was unfinished at release and the money from our sub was used to finish the expansion (I didn't get that high in it so can't say anythign about this)
-Servers nevet fixed ever. (many got fixed)
-Servers crashed every day for a month +.......... (I played from jsut after kunark, so obviously that includes PoP and only recall a few crashes on Brell)
-LoN introduced RMT in EQ even though everyone was against it (Obviously many were not against it because many were doing it, and are doing it)
SWG:
-NGE
Vanguard:
-SoE kept charging people even after they cancelled, you had to call your bank to cancel account (yes this is bad, but screw-ups happen, they are hardly the first, and won't be the last - give me my money back, and let me get on with my life. If they don't they don't get any more money)
EQ2:
-RMT (Obviously many were not against it because many were doing it, and are doing it)
I agree, there are reasons to dislike, to warn others, to ensure they don't get any of your money, but some seem to have lost their grip on reality.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I am not going to quote that tripe. The OP is not a complete idiot, he is however, a corporation's best friend. I guess I could meet him point for point, but evidently there is no reason to ever hate a company. They, afterall, are only doing it in the name of business.
You're too generous.
Originally posted by Bronks Please enlighten me as to what Sony did to you personally to make you hate them. Did Sony make you so addicted to Everquest back in the day that you lost your job or your spouse? (Because I'd understand that) Did your Sony PS3 start a fire and burn your uninsured house down? (Because I'd understand that) Were you a doctor in SWG who sold buffs for credits that you sold for real world money so you could pay back the mafia when the NGE came about and the mafia broke both your legs as a result? (Because again, I would understand that)
Indirectly insulting the intelligence of a group of individuals for a personal opinion and than he says..?
Originally posted by Bronks See? A simple discussion thread cannot occur without someone taking offense and beginning to sling mud.
You're right, it can't, especially when the first post in the thread does it.
Originally posted by Timberwolf0
The problem with the OP's post is a simple inability to view the issue from others perspectives. Just because the OP didnt have any issues with SOE doesn't mean others experiences are any less valid. I hate SOE because they take good games and run them into the ground, such as planetside. They cut corners and produce many shoddy games.
This is the most simplistic answer to sum up the thread. Semper9a does a more detailed explanation and a fair job. Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would need it in such detail.
great post.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
The OP is a troll because he has mostly only responded to "attacks". He has not really responded to some of the well thought out posts about why so many people hate / dislike SOE. He has "selectively" chosen to skip some of the great points mentioned in this thread. He is also being overly picky with the word "hate". He is using it literally and non-literally whenever it suits him best and applying broad generalizations to everyone who has issues with SOE. This makes him a troll looking to stir up drama. Nothing to see here. BTW, SOE sucks.
A very good point. The OP continues to ignore the fact that disatisfaction with a company and complaining/advertising that satisfaction is the foundation of capitalism. In fact he goes past ignoring to suggesting people are somehow pathetic for being disgusted with how a buisness conducts its buisness. He has selectivly choosen to insult a large contintion of these boards and then ignored the legitimate complaints. The OP has no standrd in which he expects to be treated and thinks others are wrong for having such expectation and in sharing with others when a company falls far short of it.
The OP is a troll because he has mostly only responded to "attacks". He has not really responded to some of the well thought out posts about why so many people hate / dislike SOE. He has "selectively" chosen to skip some of the great points mentioned in this thread. He is also being overly picky with the word "hate". He is using it literally and non-literally whenever it suits him best and applying broad generalizations to everyone who has issues with SOE. This makes him a troll looking to stir up drama. Nothing to see here. BTW, SOE sucks.
A very good point. The OP continues to ignore the fact that disatisfaction with a company and complaining/advertising that satisfaction is the foundation of capitalism. In fact he goes past ignoring to suggesting people are somehow pathetic for being disgusted with how a buisness conducts its buisness. He has selectivly choosen to insult a large contintion of these boards and then ignored the legitimate complaints. The OP has no standrd in which he expects to be treated and thinks others are wrong for having such expectation and in sharing with others when a company falls far short of it.
So what about those of us who know exactly where the hate comes from , yet feel some take it to far ? It's one thing to hate on SOE ,but as shown in this thread , some can't leave it at that . Some like to attack anyone who may feel differently or disagree with them , Which has been the case Since Nov. 05 , And that's exactly where threads like these come from .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
On an emotional level, do you really HATE a company? Consider the ramifications of the word hate and tell me honestly. I understand what Sony has done. I have lived and played through what sony has done since everquest in 1999 up to present. Yes, I too was angry for buying the expansion. Yes I was upset and cancelled with the CU/NGE fiasco. I can respect everyone's feelings on the issue. I just think these SOE haters are throwing around a word like HATE too casually. It is a terrible word and in my line of work hate is a word uglier and more vulgar than cursing...
I suppose I am more sensitive to the word but regardless of that HATE is a terrible word and conjures terrible images for me. I suppose I can start avoiding Hate threads. I only started this thread to see if people understand the word hate or if they are just using it incorrectly.
I think it's the latter which gives me some relief.
The OP is a troll because he has mostly only responded to "attacks". He has not really responded to some of the well thought out posts about why so many people hate / dislike SOE. He has "selectively" chosen to skip some of the great points mentioned in this thread. He is also being overly picky with the word "hate". He is using it literally and non-literally whenever it suits him best and applying broad generalizations to everyone who has issues with SOE. This makes him a troll looking to stir up drama. Nothing to see here. BTW, SOE sucks.
A very good point. The OP continues to ignore the fact that disatisfaction with a company and complaining/advertising that satisfaction is the foundation of capitalism. In fact he goes past ignoring to suggesting people are somehow pathetic for being disgusted with how a buisness conducts its buisness. He has selectivly choosen to insult a large contintion of these boards and then ignored the legitimate complaints. The OP has no standrd in which he expects to be treated and thinks others are wrong for having such expectation and in sharing with others when a company falls far short of it.
So what about those of us who know exactly where the hate comes from , yet feel some take it to far ? It's one thing to hate on SOE ,but as shown in this thread , some can't leave it at that . Some like to attack anyone who may feel differently or disagree with them , Which has been the case Since Nov. 05 , And that's exactly where threads like these come from .
Sure some people take it to far. On both sides. So what? You think making a post insulting everyone who thinks SOE should be held accountable for their decisions is going to help in some way? The OP is trolling. Sure some people take hating SOE to far, but the other side of that is anytime someone points out that SOE has a poor history and thinking that history is going to change is crazy the SOE supporters see that as an attack. It's a valid observation when talking about anything that SOE is involved with. How can you have a meaningful dicussion about anything if you refuse to ackknowledge the past.
Comments
SOE has made too many decisions that treated their customers poorly.
It is not the games they make it is their idea of good business that is the problem.
SOE = Bad Company.
When you find a company that treats it's customers with contempt it is important to warn others so that they don't waste their money too.
Are you able to understand the concept that I am describing to you?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
So, you buy a game for $40 and it gets ruined 3 years later so you are mad because the game didn't give you your $40 worth...
You then buy a case of beer for $40 (I live in Canada - it's expensive to drink here) and find a dead bug in the bottom of a bottle so you never buy beer again?
your analogy is close. It would be more like buying a beer you like and drinking it for months. Then the beer company decides to change the recipe on your favorite beer, and it tastes like shit thereafter. So you dont buy it, and you dislike them for taking away the flavor of your favorite beer.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
They destroyed EQ.
To the OP.
My understanding is that some people "dislike" SOE, and a few people (a very few to be honest) "Hate" SOE (using the definitiion you have stated).
Those who "hate" them have their own issues, which dont really effect this, but those who "dislike" them, tend to do so because SOE made (in the players eyes) some bad choices concerning a few games they made.
This may seem trivial to the casual viewer watching from the sidelines, but to someone who has spent 2 years, every day, most waking hours, investing time and energy (and in some cases - money) into they game, it goes beyond the ability to just "unplug and move on". It becomes a way of life, a way to interact with friends, a way to meet lovers, a way to be part of a bigger world that is better than the normal mundane 9-5 office job people have to do. It is an escape from the realities of life, and then, when a company makes a choice to change that life, in some cases without consulting the players, it has a strong effect on the life of the person concerned.
When these choices are game changing (in the case of the SWG NGE/CU) and the dedicated players start to see their friends, their family and their population leave the game in their hundreds, the result is a huge shock, upset, and stress. The life you have invested so much time into, has been taken away from you, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Now, would this have been an isolated incident, then, maybe, just maybe, that player would have forgiven those who made the choices and moved on eventually. But, when you then learn that this has happened before in other games, you quickly lose your faith in the company as a whole. And this then leads those effected to want to avoid any games made by that company, for (possibly the very real) fear that should they begin again, and reinvest time to a new "world" that it will happen again. And for alot of people, they could not take that feeling yet again.
THIS is why you end up with "I hate SOE" posts, and "I will never play another SOE game again" posts.
I hope this makes sense and explains how people feel for you.
Now.... on the flip side of that.... SOE is a company. It is the longest running MMO company in existance. With EverQuest 1 it created the entire 3d MMO genre as we see it today. Every game you play owes something to that original game, and to the man who came up with the idea - the most hated man in the MMO world, John Smedley. Which leads to an odd paradox! Without him and his "vision" there would be no 3d MMOs in the way you know them, and yet a large percentage of the MMO world hate him for his later choices. Tough call either way.
Plus, as SOE is the longest running, and most prolific MMO company in the World (Origin / UO aside as they were bought out by EA and never made anything else), they have managed to build the largest catalogue of games out there. And, in fairness, it is only some of these that have had these problems (EQ to some extent, Planetside and SWG), whereas others (VG, EQ2, PotBS) have gone from strength to strength, with one (MxO) being rescued from closure by the company. And with their 2 new games out soon (FreeRealms and the Agency) they are continuing to create new ideas and directions for the genre as a whole.
So, the end result of all of this, is that you have on one side those who have been hurt and offended by SOE, who will bear the scars of this betrayal for a long time and "hate" the company, then on the other side the ones hounded as "fanbois" who have had no problems with their games, enjoy what SOE have done and look forward to what they plan for the future.
Neither side will back down, as neither side can truely see the point of the others argument, and so the "debate" about this company will no doubt rage on for a long long time.
Where do I sit? I have been "hurt" by SOE, but then I have also had a blast in their other games, and I respect some of the choices they have made, whilst failing to see any reasoning for others. So, I am on the fence, but enjoying what they have done with VG and EQ2 quite alot.....
"When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright
EQ:
-PoP was unfinished at release and the money from our sub was used to finish the expansion
-Bugs never got fixed ever.
-Servers crashed every day for a month +.................
-LoN introduced RMT in EQ even though everyone was against it
SWG:
-NGE
Vanguard:
-SoE kept charging people even after they cancelled, you had to call your bank to cancel account
EQ2:
-RMT
I'm sure a lot of people have had much worse experiences with SoE. I fucking loath them.
Muhahahaha Bronks, SOE oversteps themselves with their customers time and time again - You must blame the cause not the affect.
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Yes!....You know the game boxes in stores? When I see a SoE game I put a dent in the box or rip the box up a bit while passing through!
Seriously, I hate $oE, lol.
Bronks...If some dude punched ya in the face and you paid this dude $15 a month just to find out you keep getting punched in the face. How long does it take you to realize the face punching is not going to stop? Would you not hate that same asshole that punched you in the face and took your money on the account of "your experience". It is not as much hate as it is not wanting to support the bastards that destroyed your favorite MMO. SOE can go to hell, Sony in general can go to hell one of the many reasons I don't own a PS3.
Your history is faulty.
Everquest was created by Verant, not SOE. This company was headed up by Brad McQuaid, not Smed. "The Vision" was created by McQuaid.
McQuaid sold EQ to SOE... and that's when they began to attempt to change it in to a mass market cash machine, thus utterly destroying it.
My hate for SoE is something that has built up over successive MMO's and experiences with SoE. Ive played all their titles, EQ, EQ2, Planetside, Star Wars Galaxies, The Matrix Online and Vanguard, so I have a wealth of experience dealing with them. Infact EQ was my first MMO, I loved it, and SoE went from being my favorite MMO company to my most loathed.
What contributes to this has been small things that have added up to a penultimate conclusion, that SoE dont care about their customers opinions/thoughts, but only about their money.
I'll start with a timeline for each game and incident.
My first MMO was Everquest, back before the Shadows of Luclin expansion, as far as I remember it, the game was laggy, it had slow zoning times and it didnt even have sound. But thats was fine becuase it was my first MMO and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It set in stone my favor for SoE and my love for MMO's. However I started to dislike their design choices in the game, new content came only in the form of expansions, and at the rate they released them I was forking out alot of dosh just to keep up. In the end I started to dislike the gamepaly changes and I moved onto other games.
The second SoE MMO was Planetside, great game, really enjoyed it. But its suffered since its release. Very recently SoE has put it ont he back burner, with a skeleton development crew. There is virtually no development on this and game what there is, uses non-implimented beta content to cut down the work. I hate the way SoE milk games.
The third was SWG, I wasnt a big player in this game, I played several times coming and going. I amassed a small wealthy, a house, I played as a master architect. But ever since this games launch is has had problems. It hit the shelves incomplete and buggy and there are bugs that existed from beta right up to NGE. There were problems (bounty hunter fix etc) that could have been fixed instead of developing the CU & NGE and players would have been content. Their customer support was horrendous, anyone remember the teleporting to space incident? I had a friend who's city hall vanished, he couldnt build a new one so SoE told him to build a new town somewhere else! I quit well before the CU, but I heard stories and came back to see the foul ups. The bugs that were never fixed. The class balances that were promised but never occured. The forum censorships. What topped it for me was not the NGE, but how they implimented it immediately after people ordered the expansion pack. I also forget to mention how the first expansion, jump to light speed was incomplete and didnt offer all the content they originally promised. This game was a scandal before NGE and its a scandal after. SoE's complete disregard for their customers has lead me to the conclusion that they arent worthy of my cash.
SWG really caused me to think twice abuot SoE. I remember distinctly that SoE were always after more subscriptions throughout the game. I remember the Smedly banter before WoW released, how he was going to get more subs. I came to the conclusion that every change, CU, NGE, was not for the improvement of current subscribers, but in an attempt to get more outside subscribers. The ironic thing is, they now have less.
The next title was EQ2, yet another game to release buggy and incomplete, its taken 1-2 years to get it to an enjoyable standard and even during that they released an expansion. Another thing that cuases me to loath SoE, where other games now offer content for no added cost, for new content in EQ2 you have to pay for it. I didnt like EQ2, but I tried it on multiple occasions, I had a customer support issue regarding billing, paid them but didnt get my time, which was never resolved.
Matrix Online, I played at release, it wasnt a great game, made by a different company to SoE. I dont blame SoE for the state of the game, I blame SoE for milking it. Like Planetside they've got a skeletal development team doing bug fixes and implimenting very little new content. With this in mind, its very difficult to play a game in the knowledge that it will never expand or improve.
Vanguard, again not SoE's fault, my perspective has actually improved with this game. they appear to be listening to their players, fixing issues that are high on everyones mind. The games improved immensely. Their customer support is noteworthy. But I find myself struggling to subscribe for this game in the knowledge of what SoE's done in SWG, of SoE's customer support, of SoE's habit of making you pay for all new content in its yearly expansions, its habit of releasing buggy and incomplete content. If SoE has truely turned a corner, I find it depressing that its taken 6 years to do so.
I can only blame SoE's management for these problems, as its employee's get moved around often and ive heard rumors of entire development teams getting replaced on a yearly basis. More then anything, I constitute these problems to the person they've had in management since EQ, Smedly.
And thats why I hate SoE.
I dont wage hate campaigns against them, I dont put in bomb threats into their HQ, I just refuse to buy their games. I dont want to get burned again.
---
So, you buy a game for $40 and it gets ruined 3 years later so you are mad because the game didn't give you your $40 worth...
You then buy a case of beer for $40 (I live in Canada - it's expensive to drink here) and find a dead bug in the bottom of a bottle so you never buy beer again?
your analogy is close. It would be more like buying a beer you like and drinking it for months. Then the beer company decides to change the recipe on your favorite beer, and it tastes like shit thereafter. So you dont buy it, and you dislike them for taking away the flavor of your favorite beer.
Thank you for pointing out his flawed analogy so that I didn't have to.
The OP is a troll because he has mostly only responded to "attacks".
He has not really responded to some of the well thought out posts about why so many people hate / dislike SOE. He has "selectively" chosen to skip some of the great points mentioned in this thread. He is also being overly picky with the word "hate". He is using it literally and non-literally whenever it suits him best and applying broad generalizations to everyone who has issues with SOE.
This makes him a troll looking to stir up drama.
Nothing to see here.
BTW, SOE sucks.
See? A simple discussion thread cannot occur without someone taking offense and beginning to sling mud. Let me understand (because I truly want to understand). Are you so high on moral ethics that you will intentionally pay more for a game from one store because you don't believe in the ethics of the cheaper selling store? If Walmart has something for $20 cheaper than Gamestop, do you still buy from Gamestop?
(It should be noted that Walmart uses scare tactics to get what it wants from its suppliers and has intentionally shut down may supply companies (particularly in America) that would not offer their goods to Walmart at 'rollback' prices.)
I fully understand being mad. I am mad at SOE for ruining SWG but I internallize my feelings. I am mad at SOE for what has become of EQ1 and MXO. As I stated above, the people that dislike sony REALLY dislike sony and I find it strange to keep hanging on to that anger. And the hatemongers have no problem hijacking innocent treads by people (both the next generation of MMO players and old-school MMO players alike) who couldn't care what Sony did to EQ, or SWG or anything else Sony did.
I would just like the haters to start a hate Sony thread and I can safely say I won't pop in to give any Kudos to Sony.
So what if sony ruined my SWG? I probably would have spent the monthly sub fee on alcohol or drugs anyways
My opinion had nothing to do with ethics or morals, it has to do with being a rational human being. Let me sum this up on another analogy that you'll fail to grasp:
If a man walks up to me and smashes me in the face with a hammer. I'd be pretty upset, now, if I just let him keep doing this to me, I'd be an idiot. To relate this back to SWG, SOE took something that brought a lot of people happiness and joy, it wasn't perfect, but a lot of us were happy. They then changed that thing into something horrid, and it pissed all of us off. For an analogy, see the post about beer in this thread. We know dislike, hate, loathe, etc. SOE for what they did.
Your entire problem with people disliking SOE seems to come from their use of the word "hate". You seem to accord some special significance to the word, which is your right, but that doesn't mean that your definition is the one we're all going with, and I'd be willing to bet most people go with something like "intense dislike". You admonish me for taking some supposed ethical high ground, while at the same time telling "SOE Haters" their feelings are wrong simply because you don't agree with their word choice based on your own definition of the word.
Muhahahaha Bronks, SOE oversteps themselves with their customers time and time again - You must blame the cause not the affect.
The biggest problem with the line of thought in Bronks' post is the fact that if SOE is given a free pass for the things they do wrong, other MMO developers/publishers are going to assume that doing the same things are acceptable to consumers. That would lead us down a very bad path.
You're too generous.
Indirectly insulting the intelligence of a group of individuals for a personal opinion and than he says..?
You're right, it can't, especially when the first post in the thread does it.
This is the most simplistic answer to sum up the thread. Semper9a does a more detailed explanation and a fair job. Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would need it in such detail.
I don't hate SOE. I have the same feelings for them that they, as a company, have for me, a player not in their chosen demographic.
Contempt.
I dunno Crunknasty.....
Seems they do, and get results....
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008/07/09/tech-iphone.html
So you, too have high ethical standards that you or your family don't support Martha Stewart or Walmart or Dell or any retailer using sweatshops to produce their merchandise or scaring small manufacturers into selling their products for a loss until they are forced to close, or...
You can't honestly quote ethical standards and wear anything that wasn't handmade or eat anything you didn't personally grow.
I do think people should use a standard when shopping to an extent, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is these company's adopt this ideal that if something isn't illegal (or isn't enforced) then anything is fine to make a buck. The mentality affects our social standard and particualrly supporting the mentality greatly effects our standard more. Today people think capitalism and free market mean that buisness has a right to do anything and people should just bend over shutup and take it. And now to many people have begun running their personal lives with the same ethic.
Your history is faulty.
Everquest was created by Verant, not SOE. This company was headed up by Brad McQuaid, not Smed. "The Vision" was created by McQuaid.
McQuaid sold EQ to SOE... and that's when they began to attempt to change it in to a mass market cash machine, thus utterly destroying it.
Your history is a bit faulty as well. Verant was orinally part of 989 studios which was renamed from Sony Interactive Studios. Eventually 989 worked on console and Verant was spun out as a subsidary. Smed was brought in under the original 989 and hired Mcquaid to develop the game. Eventually the game was brought under Sony Online Entertainment.
So SOE always owned Verant.
-PoP was unfinished at release and the money from our sub was used to finish the expansion (I didn't get that high in it so can't say anythign about this)
-Servers nevet fixed ever. (many got fixed)
-Servers crashed every day for a month +.......... (I played from jsut after kunark, so obviously that includes PoP and only recall a few crashes on Brell)
-LoN introduced RMT in EQ even though everyone was against it (Obviously many were not against it because many were doing it, and are doing it)
SWG:
-NGE
Vanguard:
-SoE kept charging people even after they cancelled, you had to call your bank to cancel account (yes this is bad, but screw-ups happen, they are hardly the first, and won't be the last - give me my money back, and let me get on with my life. If they don't they don't get any more money)
EQ2:
-RMT (Obviously many were not against it because many were doing it, and are doing it)
I agree, there are reasons to dislike, to warn others, to ensure they don't get any of your money, but some seem to have lost their grip on reality.
Venge Sunsoar
You're too generous.
Indirectly insulting the intelligence of a group of individuals for a personal opinion and than he says..?
You're right, it can't, especially when the first post in the thread does it.
This is the most simplistic answer to sum up the thread. Semper9a does a more detailed explanation and a fair job. Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would need it in such detail.
great post.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
A very good point. The OP continues to ignore the fact that disatisfaction with a company and complaining/advertising that satisfaction is the foundation of capitalism. In fact he goes past ignoring to suggesting people are somehow pathetic for being disgusted with how a buisness conducts its buisness. He has selectivly choosen to insult a large contintion of these boards and then ignored the legitimate complaints. The OP has no standrd in which he expects to be treated and thinks others are wrong for having such expectation and in sharing with others when a company falls far short of it.
A very good point. The OP continues to ignore the fact that disatisfaction with a company and complaining/advertising that satisfaction is the foundation of capitalism. In fact he goes past ignoring to suggesting people are somehow pathetic for being disgusted with how a buisness conducts its buisness. He has selectivly choosen to insult a large contintion of these boards and then ignored the legitimate complaints. The OP has no standrd in which he expects to be treated and thinks others are wrong for having such expectation and in sharing with others when a company falls far short of it.
So what about those of us who know exactly where the hate comes from , yet feel some take it to far ? It's one thing to hate on SOE ,but as shown in this thread , some can't leave it at that . Some like to attack anyone who may feel differently or disagree with them , Which has been the case Since Nov. 05 , And that's exactly where threads like these come from .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't hate SOE just unimpressive.
This is exactly my feeling towards $$$OE.
I detest $$$OE too, if you prefer this word.
A very good point. The OP continues to ignore the fact that disatisfaction with a company and complaining/advertising that satisfaction is the foundation of capitalism. In fact he goes past ignoring to suggesting people are somehow pathetic for being disgusted with how a buisness conducts its buisness. He has selectivly choosen to insult a large contintion of these boards and then ignored the legitimate complaints. The OP has no standrd in which he expects to be treated and thinks others are wrong for having such expectation and in sharing with others when a company falls far short of it.
So what about those of us who know exactly where the hate comes from , yet feel some take it to far ? It's one thing to hate on SOE ,but as shown in this thread , some can't leave it at that . Some like to attack anyone who may feel differently or disagree with them , Which has been the case Since Nov. 05 , And that's exactly where threads like these come from .
Sure some people take it to far. On both sides. So what? You think making a post insulting everyone who thinks SOE should be held accountable for their decisions is going to help in some way? The OP is trolling. Sure some people take hating SOE to far, but the other side of that is anytime someone points out that SOE has a poor history and thinking that history is going to change is crazy the SOE supporters see that as an attack. It's a valid observation when talking about anything that SOE is involved with. How can you have a meaningful dicussion about anything if you refuse to ackknowledge the past.