Id settle for an MMO that survives longer then 3 months after launch. It seems none of these devolopers understand that MMos should be played for decades not 4 to 6 months. The only game doing it right so far is world of warcraft, expanding on their game, sticking to the original idea of the game and constantly improving the game the way their current community wants it.
I think that's one of the biggest problems right there and was going to be another topic of mine. Players expect these games to last forever, but with today's development standards, it's an impossibility without making serious sacrifices with gameplay, making it an excruciatingly slow trudge with mediocre interations.
I'm more than alright having a hell of a lot of fun for 3 months than being bored with mind-numbingly slow gameplay. It's why I've turned from MMORPGs in the last couple of years (that and the reason posted in my original post), now I go to offline RPGs that provide compelling gameplay and progress at a satisfying speed that keeps me hooked.
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
I dont get the fascination with skill based MMOs....LEts take UO for example....At its peak it had a whopping 250K players......Not exactly a business model everyone wants to copy.... Also many players in UO used to macros, scripts, bots, etc to raise their skills....it wasnt like most of them sat at the keyboard and fought thousands of monsters to improve their swordsmanship.....Many of them either worte a script to do the work for them or got them off the internet a short time later..... Same with mining, hiding, sneaking, and almost every skill in the game......The reason why otehr games havent used UOs formula is because it doesnt work very well.....Uo had a few thousand very dedicated vocal fans but the game itself was very mediocre at best.
So you are saying people wouldn't want it because then they'd actually have to play their games instead of relying on macros?! This is insane! The fact that bots and macros exist to play the game for you shows that the gameplay sucks to begin with and is begging for a shake-up to make it about player-fun again. And fun through gameplay not through the false notion of progressing your character forever.
Make it fun while playing all of the time, not hellish until you get to that magical level or place within the game before the fun starts.
It already exists, and has for a long time. It's called a First Person Shooter. The moment you make my player skill more important than my character's skill, it's not an RPG any more, and I'll just go play Battlefield 2142 or something like that with no monthly fee. When you design a good MMORPG, I'll pay 15 bucks a month.
Twitch RPGs exist. See the Elder-Scrolls series? It is an RPG through and through but with gameplay that requires more than relying on some numbers to tell you if you are going to win, it requires actual skill, and with that, the gameplay is extremely fun and compelling (at least for me).
It already exists, and has for a long time. It's called a First Person Shooter. The moment you make my player skill more important than my character's skill, it's not an RPG any more, and I'll just go play Battlefield 2142 or something like that with no monthly fee. When you design a good MMORPG, I'll pay 15 bucks a month.
Twitch RPGs exist. See the Elder-Scrolls series? It is an RPG through and through but with gameplay that requires more than relying on some numbers to tell you if you are going to win, it requires actual skill, and with that, the gameplay is extremely fun and compelling (at least for me).
And with regards to you last comment... just wait
Some games can be split into multiple generes as it has elements of two different ones. The Elder Scrolls gamess could be considered action RPGs. Personally I didn't enjoy the combat in either of these games very much. Probably my favorite combat in an RPG and my favorite RPG of all time is Baldur's Gate 2. The game had a lot of number crunching, but it required a great deal of group strategy to win the day even though it didn't require relex type actions. You had to know what you were doing and know your enemies weak points or you were going to lose the fight. Every group member had a role and they had to contribute something if you were going to win.
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
I dont get the fascination with skill based MMOs....LEts take UO for example....At its peak it had a whopping 250K players......Not exactly a business model everyone wants to copy.... Also many players in UO used to macros, scripts, bots, etc to raise their skills....it wasnt like most of them sat at the keyboard and fought thousands of monsters to improve their swordsmanship.....Many of them either worte a script to do the work for them or got them off the internet a short time later..... Same with mining, hiding, sneaking, and almost every skill in the game......The reason why otehr games havent used UOs formula is because it doesnt work very well.....Uo had a few thousand very dedicated vocal fans but the game itself was very mediocre at best.
So the fact that you could pretty much do what you wanted sucked? There was no city or area off limits to you even if you were a newbie? The fact players pretty much crafted everything in the game that mattered? The fact even if your character was lower skilled than your friends you could still easily join them in a hunt? The fact that there was no 'Do X quest to get this power item' , 'Do Y quest to find your way to the next city.' The fact where your house was often a guildhall, a store, or a great place to meet with friends. So this 'mediocre' game had more in it than most current MMOs do today, that actually tried to make the players part of the world.
Even with all the macros n scripts the game had a great community. New players n vets could play together n have alot of fun without any level restrictions. The newer player may die more...but at least he/she would be with friends that could help em along.
I think it's lower player base was due to the graphics. Even back in the day the graphics were still nothin special. At least not when you compare them to the better 3d graphics of EQ n AC. If UO had gone with a 3d graphic style (not this 3d crap they are trying to sell to the players now), but graphics to compare to EQ, there woulda been alot more ppl playing and enjoying the game.
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
Yes I agree though I would make the distiction that it is an action RPG or a FPS RPG. MMOARPG or something of that nature.
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
Yes I agree though I would make the distiction that it is an action RPG or a FPS RPG. MMOARPG or something of that nature.
That is fair I would say. you made good points in your post. I did not play BG 2 btw apparently I need to check it out someday
I see alot of posters arguing about player skill vs character skill like I've seen for so many years before.
Character stats does tend to come along with roleplaying true. However, true roleplaying is acting "in character" and portraying a role. Technically, stats may not be needed but rather allow player's to use their own personal skills in lieu of "character skill"
the only important thing is acting "in character"
In pen and paper, GMs had the power to powerlevel party members in anycase to keep everyone on a fair playing field. Your character stats could be assigned and there you go. In pen and paper, all they had was dice or the board in a board tactical game. A person can roleplay as a God if they want and not be bound by constraints technically.
Combat is really just a part of RPG it does not define the genre. Never has
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
Yes I agree though I would make the distiction that it is an action RPG or a FPS RPG. MMOARPG or something of that nature.
That is fair I would say. you made good points in your post. I did not play BG 2 btw apparently I need to check it out someday
BG2 uses D&D 2nd edition which allows for multi classing and duel classing so it does allow for some freedom. It also has something called kits for each class which allows each class to further specialize in something. For instance a fighter could choose a kit called Kensei at character creation. This kit gets +1 to hit and damage every three levels and -1 to speed factor every four levels, but cannot wear armor. This game is also very group centric somewhat like the original EQ where having the holy trinity makes you a lot stronger as a group. The theif is less combat oriented and more around for their ability to pick locks and find traps like traditional D&D. Mages are important for their ability to dispell magical protections your enemy may use to make themselves imune to most damage. Other then this there is a lot interaction between the characters in your group over the coarse of the game including a few optional romances. If you can live with the old graphics 1024x 768 2D it's got a great setup using a strategy game style combat system. It's point and click, but you can select every character at once if you want to. You can also pause the game during combat to assign each character in your group to do something specific other then normal autoattack.
BG2 uses D&D 2nd edition which allows for multi classing and duel classing so it does allow for some freedom. It also has something called kits for each class which allows each class to further specialize in something. For instance a fighter could choose a kit called Kensei at character creation. This kit gets +1 to hit and damage every three levels and -1 to speed factor every four levels, but cannot wear armor. This game is also very group centric somewhat like the original EQ where having the holy trinity makes you a lot stronger as a group. The theif is less combat oriented and more around for their ability to pick locks and find traps like traditional D&D. Mages are important for their ability to dispell magical protections your enemy may use to make themselves imune to most damage. Other then this there is a lot interaction between the characters in your group over the coarse of the game including a few optional romances. If you can live with the old graphics 1024x 768 2D it's got a great setup using a strategy game style combat system. It's point and click, but you can select every character at once if you want to. You can also pause the game during combat to assign each character in your group to do something specific other then normal autoattack.
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
BG2 uses D&D 2nd edition which allows for multi classing and duel classing so it does allow for some freedom. It also has something called kits for each class which allows each class to further specialize in something. For instance a fighter could choose a kit called Kensei at character creation. This kit gets +1 to hit and damage every three levels and -1 to speed factor every four levels, but cannot wear armor. This game is also very group centric somewhat like the original EQ where having the holy trinity makes you a lot stronger as a group. The theif is less combat oriented and more around for their ability to pick locks and find traps like traditional D&D. Mages are important for their ability to dispell magical protections your enemy may use to make themselves imune to most damage. Other then this there is a lot interaction between the characters in your group over the coarse of the game including a few optional romances. If you can live with the old graphics 1024x 768 2D it's got a great setup using a strategy game style combat system. It's point and click, but you can select every character at once if you want to. You can also pause the game during combat to assign each character in your group to do something specific other then normal autoattack.
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
I like some action RPGs, but it depends on the game. Many games do action RPG combat different from others. Even though many consider Oblivion and inferior game to Morrowind (including myself) I thought it's combat system was a step up from Morrowinds. The Elder Scrolls games have some features I like such as being able to get infected with Vamprism and things of that nature. The thing I disliked about Oblivion was they used monster scaling to the point that the game wasn't much fun for me. I figured why bother with levels/skills at all if the monsters are all going to level with you and you will never feel superior in anyway. One of the fun things about RPGs is you can revisit mobs that kicked your butt early in the game and return the favor when you are more powerful. In Oblivion this wasn't possible because level scaling was used everywhere in the game. Bioware uses level scaling in their games, but not to the same extent that Oblivion did. Even Morrowind did not use the level scaling that Oblvion did which is why many people consider it superior.
Originally posted by shrapnel20 www.mortalonline.com
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
BG2 uses D&D 2nd edition which allows for multi classing and duel classing so it does allow for some freedom. It also has something called kits for each class which allows each class to further specialize in something. For instance a fighter could choose a kit called Kensei at character creation. This kit gets +1 to hit and damage every three levels and -1 to speed factor every four levels, but cannot wear armor. This game is also very group centric somewhat like the original EQ where having the holy trinity makes you a lot stronger as a group. The theif is less combat oriented and more around for their ability to pick locks and find traps like traditional D&D. Mages are important for their ability to dispell magical protections your enemy may use to make themselves imune to most damage. Other then this there is a lot interaction between the characters in your group over the coarse of the game including a few optional romances. If you can live with the old graphics 1024x 768 2D it's got a great setup using a strategy game style combat system. It's point and click, but you can select every character at once if you want to. You can also pause the game during combat to assign each character in your group to do something specific other then normal autoattack.
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
I like some action RPGs, but it depends on the game. Many games do action RPG combat different from others. Even though many consider Oblivion and inferior game to Morrowind (including myself) I thought it's combat system was a step up from Morrowinds. The Elder Scrolls games have some features I like such as being able to get infected with Vamprism and things of that nature. The thing I disliked about Oblivion was they used monster scaling to the point that the game wasn't much fun for me. I figured why bother with levels/skills at all if the monsters are all going to level with you and you will never feel superior in anyway. One of the fun things about RPGs is you can revisit mobs that kicked your butt early in the game and return the favor when you are more powerful. In Oblivion this wasn't possible because level scaling was used everywhere in the game. Bioware uses level scaling in their games, but not to the same extent that Oblivion did. Even Morrowind did not use the level scaling that Oblvion did which is why many people consider it superior.
Yeah I agree it was almost as if Oblivion removed skilling up altogether. That is the only reason I mentioned above. KOTR / Mass Effect feel very nice because you can go back and totally own anbd it makes you feel really powerful
No doubt this is why stats go hand-in-hand with RPG. It helps makes a game feels like it has much stronger roleplay.
That's why originally I posted I'm not an expert on subjects concerning character skill vs player skill. I think for now on I will clarify my stance the way you say- just call those games FPS / Action RPG.
Now I see what you meant by 'tradtional' ah (bulbs lights up)
Originally posted by shrapnel20 Originally posted by ChrisMattern
Originally posted by shrapnel20 www.mortalonline.com
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
No? That's what I thought.
and you had to put a lot of thought into that didn't you?
Originally posted by shrapnel20 Originally posted by ChrisMattern
Originally posted by shrapnel20
Originally posted by ChrisMattern
Originally posted by shrapnel20 www.mortalonline.com
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it? No? That's what I thought. and you had to put a lot of thought into that didn't you?
I will be impressed when it is a game I can actually go out and play--and it's still a game that will change the face of MMORPGs when it faces the cold light of reality. Until that day comes, it's fog and promises, nothing more.
The answer to this question is simple, old school SWg was skill based, and so will upcoming Darkfall, hopefully soon to be the best MMo ever, level based games are getting old quick
BG2 uses D&D 2nd edition which allows for multi classing and duel classing so it does allow for some freedom. It also has something called kits for each class which allows each class to further specialize in something. For instance a fighter could choose a kit called Kensei at character creation. This kit gets +1 to hit and damage every three levels and -1 to speed factor every four levels, but cannot wear armor. This game is also very group centric somewhat like the original EQ where having the holy trinity makes you a lot stronger as a group. The theif is less combat oriented and more around for their ability to pick locks and find traps like traditional D&D. Mages are important for their ability to dispell magical protections your enemy may use to make themselves imune to most damage. Other then this there is a lot interaction between the characters in your group over the coarse of the game including a few optional romances. If you can live with the old graphics 1024x 768 2D it's got a great setup using a strategy game style combat system. It's point and click, but you can select every character at once if you want to. You can also pause the game during combat to assign each character in your group to do something specific other then normal autoattack.
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
I like some action RPGs, but it depends on the game. Many games do action RPG combat different from others. Even though many consider Oblivion and inferior game to Morrowind (including myself) I thought it's combat system was a step up from Morrowinds. The Elder Scrolls games have some features I like such as being able to get infected with Vamprism and things of that nature. The thing I disliked about Oblivion was they used monster scaling to the point that the game wasn't much fun for me. I figured why bother with levels/skills at all if the monsters are all going to level with you and you will never feel superior in anyway. One of the fun things about RPGs is you can revisit mobs that kicked your butt early in the game and return the favor when you are more powerful. In Oblivion this wasn't possible because level scaling was used everywhere in the game. Bioware uses level scaling in their games, but not to the same extent that Oblivion did. Even Morrowind did not use the level scaling that Oblvion did which is why many people consider it superior.
Yeah I agree it was almost as if Oblivion removed skilling up altogether. That is the only reason I mentioned above. KOTR / Mass Effect feel very nice because you can go back and totally own anbd it makes you feel really powerful
No doubt this is why stats go hand-in-hand with RPG. It helps makes a game feels like it has much stronger roleplay.
That's why originally I posted I'm not an expert on subjects concerning character skill vs player skill. I think for now on I will clarify my stance the way you say- just call those games FPS / Action RPG.
Now I see what you meant by 'tradtional' ah (bulbs lights up)
I think Bioware has done their leveling systems pretty well. Once in a while they will scale the mobs down to more your level if you deciede to skip the subquests and go strait for the main story, but they don't scale all the mobs in the game to your level. By the time you get to max level you truely feel like a powerful party of characters. Of course the main character in the Baldur's Gate series is part god and his sister is also part god. They are the seeds of Baal.
I agree with the distinction between differrent styles of game. This way players can tell what they are buying before they get it. If it's and action RPG you know it will be a bit faster paced and perhaps a little lighter on the story and character development. If it's a traditional RPG you know it's going to be more like PnP.
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
No? That's what I thought.
and you had to put a lot of thought into that didn't you?
I will be impressed when it is a game I can actually go out and play--and it's still a game that will change the face of MMORPGs when it faces the cold light of reality. Until that day comes, it's fog and promises, nothing more.
i can agree with this. it's all vaporware til it goes live. no harm in watching how the development unfolds though.
I can't believe so many years have gone by and we're still essentially playing the same game with MMORPGs. So little has changed. Sure each MMO has some things of their own, but the basic structure remains the same and the sad thing is, the core gameplay that has been regurgitated over and over is really really mundane. It's all in the name of character progression. Throw the idea of fun out the window and just make it an excercise in futility all in the name of getting to the next level or piece of gear to continue the cycle of leveling and getting better gear, perhaps taking the same mundane gameplay against actual people. Could you think of ever playing this type of game offline? I couldn't. Will we ever see a mainstream attempt at something more skill-based? Where the idea of fun comes from compelling gameplay and not grinding to become the "stronger" character. And when I say skill-based, I mean an MMO that requires more than targeting a foe and selecting between a few key-stroke abilities, hoping your numerical modifiers are stronger than theirs. Perhaps something with more twitch oriented play? I'm sure I can't be the only one so extremely sick of playing the same game over and over with a new paint-job and perhaps one or two additional features to make it 'fresh'.
Whats for one is fun can be for other painfull experience, you like like skill based games, well wait for darkfall that will be ultimate skill based game your looking for with awesome open pvp system with full loot.
As long 99% of mmo comunity like wow style games im affraid this wont chance soon in near future our only hope is darkfall:).
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Comments
I think that's one of the biggest problems right there and was going to be another topic of mine. Players expect these games to last forever, but with today's development standards, it's an impossibility without making serious sacrifices with gameplay, making it an excruciatingly slow trudge with mediocre interations.
I'm more than alright having a hell of a lot of fun for 3 months than being bored with mind-numbingly slow gameplay. It's why I've turned from MMORPGs in the last couple of years (that and the reason posted in my original post), now I go to offline RPGs that provide compelling gameplay and progress at a satisfying speed that keeps me hooked.
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
So you are saying people wouldn't want it because then they'd actually have to play their games instead of relying on macros?! This is insane! The fact that bots and macros exist to play the game for you shows that the gameplay sucks to begin with and is begging for a shake-up to make it about player-fun again. And fun through gameplay not through the false notion of progressing your character forever.
Make it fun while playing all of the time, not hellish until you get to that magical level or place within the game before the fun starts.
Twitch RPGs exist. See the Elder-Scrolls series? It is an RPG through and through but with gameplay that requires more than relying on some numbers to tell you if you are going to win, it requires actual skill, and with that, the gameplay is extremely fun and compelling (at least for me).
And with regards to you last comment... just wait
Twitch RPGs exist. See the Elder-Scrolls series? It is an RPG through and through but with gameplay that requires more than relying on some numbers to tell you if you are going to win, it requires actual skill, and with that, the gameplay is extremely fun and compelling (at least for me).
And with regards to you last comment... just wait
Some games can be split into multiple generes as it has elements of two different ones. The Elder Scrolls gamess could be considered action RPGs. Personally I didn't enjoy the combat in either of these games very much. Probably my favorite combat in an RPG and my favorite RPG of all time is Baldur's Gate 2. The game had a lot of number crunching, but it required a great deal of group strategy to win the day even though it didn't require relex type actions. You had to know what you were doing and know your enemies weak points or you were going to lose the fight. Every group member had a role and they had to contribute something if you were going to win.
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So the fact that you could pretty much do what you wanted sucked? There was no city or area off limits to you even if you were a newbie? The fact players pretty much crafted everything in the game that mattered? The fact even if your character was lower skilled than your friends you could still easily join them in a hunt? The fact that there was no 'Do X quest to get this power item' , 'Do Y quest to find your way to the next city.' The fact where your house was often a guildhall, a store, or a great place to meet with friends. So this 'mediocre' game had more in it than most current MMOs do today, that actually tried to make the players part of the world.
Even with all the macros n scripts the game had a great community. New players n vets could play together n have alot of fun without any level restrictions. The newer player may die more...but at least he/she would be with friends that could help em along.
I think it's lower player base was due to the graphics. Even back in the day the graphics were still nothin special. At least not when you compare them to the better 3d graphics of EQ n AC. If UO had gone with a 3d graphic style (not this 3d crap they are trying to sell to the players now), but graphics to compare to EQ, there woulda been alot more ppl playing and enjoying the game.
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
Yes I agree though I would make the distiction that it is an action RPG or a FPS RPG. MMOARPG or something of that nature.
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
Yes I agree though I would make the distiction that it is an action RPG or a FPS RPG. MMOARPG or something of that nature.
That is fair I would say. you made good points in your post. I did not play BG 2 btw apparently I need to check it out someday
I don't believe this is correct. If that were true every game could be classified as an RPG. RPGs generally have a story, statistical character advancement, and Dice Rolls going on behind the scenes that determine if your character succeeds in a task or not. Generally you start off weak in the game and then advance to greater power statistically to give you the feeling that your character is becoming stronger and is getting closer to being able to beat the final enemy in the game. This is part of the problem in MMORPGs. There is no final boss in the game to beat so it loses out in the story portion of the game to an extent. If you take an FPS and call it an RPG because you are roleplaying the character then why bother to have generes at all?
What makes an RPG isn't the fact you start are "weak". Almost all games do that. Assassin's Creed, God of War, Half life, bioshock, etc. In almost all of them you start out with a crappy crowbar then as game progresses you get more powerful.
What makes an RPG what it is isn't the grind. It's the roleplay. You take on a role and you 'socialize' with the NPCs. They react to your actions. See bioware RPGs. Those are real.
See Elder Scrolls. you can beat the game as a Level 1. Freaking LEVEL 1 people have beaten Elder scrolls oblivion.Hell in bioware RPGs they also scale the enemies to your level.
what makes them roleplaying is the 'alignment' systems (in which came from D&D baby) and the interactions. Progression are secondary in these games. Doesn't matter what level you are when you finish them. Sure, in some traditional RPGs like Final Fantasy yeah it does matter what level you are. But others try to make you truly feel immersed and thats what makes them roleplaying
Do people even roleplay in Diablo? It's not really an RPG per se. They term it 'action RPG' because they cut out the roleplay and replaced it with the monster killing (which was fun tho btw)
As I said in my previous post some games cross over to multiple generes. RPGs have traditionally been classified by their PnP games which use stat systems and turn based combat. Games that take a more action oriented approach are classified as action/RPGs as you pointed out with Diablo. Baldur's gate, Baldur's Gate 2, and KOTOR and are games I would term as traditional RPGs. I guess it's also then possible to say that you could have a FPS/RPG though it's still not a traditional RPG.
So then you agree an RPG can have "player skill" mixed in? The market is indifferent to whether something is "traditional" looking at the wild success of Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls series (and soon Fallout 3)
Yes I agree though I would make the distiction that it is an action RPG or a FPS RPG. MMOARPG or something of that nature.
That is fair I would say. you made good points in your post. I did not play BG 2 btw apparently I need to check it out someday
BG2 uses D&D 2nd edition which allows for multi classing and duel classing so it does allow for some freedom. It also has something called kits for each class which allows each class to further specialize in something. For instance a fighter could choose a kit called Kensei at character creation. This kit gets +1 to hit and damage every three levels and -1 to speed factor every four levels, but cannot wear armor. This game is also very group centric somewhat like the original EQ where having the holy trinity makes you a lot stronger as a group. The theif is less combat oriented and more around for their ability to pick locks and find traps like traditional D&D. Mages are important for their ability to dispell magical protections your enemy may use to make themselves imune to most damage. Other then this there is a lot interaction between the characters in your group over the coarse of the game including a few optional romances. If you can live with the old graphics 1024x 768 2D it's got a great setup using a strategy game style combat system. It's point and click, but you can select every character at once if you want to. You can also pause the game during combat to assign each character in your group to do something specific other then normal autoattack.
IMO a major shake up of MMOs will only happen when WoW dies or starts losing subs.
WoW is still influencing game developers and will continue to do so until WoW isn't as popular
Does anyone know how to make a mmoRPG anymore?
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
I like some action RPGs, but it depends on the game. Many games do action RPG combat different from others. Even though many consider Oblivion and inferior game to Morrowind (including myself) I thought it's combat system was a step up from Morrowinds. The Elder Scrolls games have some features I like such as being able to get infected with Vamprism and things of that nature. The thing I disliked about Oblivion was they used monster scaling to the point that the game wasn't much fun for me. I figured why bother with levels/skills at all if the monsters are all going to level with you and you will never feel superior in anyway. One of the fun things about RPGs is you can revisit mobs that kicked your butt early in the game and return the favor when you are more powerful. In Oblivion this wasn't possible because level scaling was used everywhere in the game. Bioware uses level scaling in their games, but not to the same extent that Oblivion did. Even Morrowind did not use the level scaling that Oblvion did which is why many people consider it superior.
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
I like some action RPGs, but it depends on the game. Many games do action RPG combat different from others. Even though many consider Oblivion and inferior game to Morrowind (including myself) I thought it's combat system was a step up from Morrowinds. The Elder Scrolls games have some features I like such as being able to get infected with Vamprism and things of that nature. The thing I disliked about Oblivion was they used monster scaling to the point that the game wasn't much fun for me. I figured why bother with levels/skills at all if the monsters are all going to level with you and you will never feel superior in anyway. One of the fun things about RPGs is you can revisit mobs that kicked your butt early in the game and return the favor when you are more powerful. In Oblivion this wasn't possible because level scaling was used everywhere in the game. Bioware uses level scaling in their games, but not to the same extent that Oblivion did. Even Morrowind did not use the level scaling that Oblvion did which is why many people consider it superior.
Yeah I agree it was almost as if Oblivion removed skilling up altogether. That is the only reason I mentioned above. KOTR / Mass Effect feel very nice because you can go back and totally own anbd it makes you feel really powerful
No doubt this is why stats go hand-in-hand with RPG. It helps makes a game feels like it has much stronger roleplay.
That's why originally I posted I'm not an expert on subjects concerning character skill vs player skill. I think for now on I will clarify my stance the way you say- just call those games FPS / Action RPG.
Now I see what you meant by 'tradtional' ah (bulbs lights up)
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
No? That's what I thought.
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
No? That's what I thought.
and you had to put a lot of thought into that didn't you?
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
No? That's what I thought.
and you had to put a lot of thought into that didn't you?
I will be impressed when it is a game I can actually go out and play--and it's still a game that will change the face of MMORPGs when it faces the cold light of reality. Until that day comes, it's fog and promises, nothing more.
The answer to this question is simple, old school SWg was skill based, and so will upcoming Darkfall, hopefully soon to be the best MMo ever, level based games are getting old quick
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
That is something I love about bioware RPGs the ability to pause the game and make important strategic decisions. That new Dragon Age Origins RPG will also maintain that.
Weird, I like tradtional RPG combat as well as twitch based. Heck EVE is less twitchy then any other MMO out there when I look back at World of Warcraft's vids now they look so twitchy
I like some action RPGs, but it depends on the game. Many games do action RPG combat different from others. Even though many consider Oblivion and inferior game to Morrowind (including myself) I thought it's combat system was a step up from Morrowinds. The Elder Scrolls games have some features I like such as being able to get infected with Vamprism and things of that nature. The thing I disliked about Oblivion was they used monster scaling to the point that the game wasn't much fun for me. I figured why bother with levels/skills at all if the monsters are all going to level with you and you will never feel superior in anyway. One of the fun things about RPGs is you can revisit mobs that kicked your butt early in the game and return the favor when you are more powerful. In Oblivion this wasn't possible because level scaling was used everywhere in the game. Bioware uses level scaling in their games, but not to the same extent that Oblivion did. Even Morrowind did not use the level scaling that Oblvion did which is why many people consider it superior.
Yeah I agree it was almost as if Oblivion removed skilling up altogether. That is the only reason I mentioned above. KOTR / Mass Effect feel very nice because you can go back and totally own anbd it makes you feel really powerful
No doubt this is why stats go hand-in-hand with RPG. It helps makes a game feels like it has much stronger roleplay.
That's why originally I posted I'm not an expert on subjects concerning character skill vs player skill. I think for now on I will clarify my stance the way you say- just call those games FPS / Action RPG.
Now I see what you meant by 'tradtional' ah (bulbs lights up)
I think Bioware has done their leveling systems pretty well. Once in a while they will scale the mobs down to more your level if you deciede to skip the subquests and go strait for the main story, but they don't scale all the mobs in the game to your level. By the time you get to max level you truely feel like a powerful party of characters. Of course the main character in the Baldur's Gate series is part god and his sister is also part god. They are the seeds of Baal.
I agree with the distinction between differrent styles of game. This way players can tell what they are buying before they get it. If it's and action RPG you know it will be a bit faster paced and perhaps a little lighter on the story and character development. If it's a traditional RPG you know it's going to be more like PnP.
You know, I'm starting to notice a trend with these games that are going to change the face of MMORPGs: they are, none of them, games that yet exist. None of them are games you can go out and *play*.
it's in development. it was just announced in april.
Ah, so I can put down my subscription fee and go play it?
No? That's what I thought.
and you had to put a lot of thought into that didn't you?
I will be impressed when it is a game I can actually go out and play--and it's still a game that will change the face of MMORPGs when it faces the cold light of reality. Until that day comes, it's fog and promises, nothing more.
i can agree with this. it's all vaporware til it goes live. no harm in watching how the development unfolds though.
Whats for one is fun can be for other painfull experience, you like like skill based games, well wait for darkfall that will be ultimate skill based game your looking for with awesome open pvp system with full loot.
As long 99% of mmo comunity like wow style games im affraid this wont chance soon in near future our only hope is darkfall:).
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.