I'm talking the real crap: FFAPVP Some form of corpse looting World PvP Guild politics Consequences to losing
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
Get into the army and they even will pay YOU.
On a serious note, FFA has proven to not be the thing the masses want, so don't expect AA title's to catter much to that particulair playstyle. There are a few MMO that have corpse looting, world pvp, guild politics and conseqence to losing, geuss what many people don't want such game and will bash such game to death. And no I ain't talking about what I want but I am talking what I see the majority of people seem to want, unfortunaly it isn't what you or other seems to want when saying the things you say in this topic.
I heard they have no respawns in RL, what happens if you lag and die?
I'm talking the real crap: FFAPVP Some form of corpse looting World PvP Guild politics Consequences to losing
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
Get into the army and they even will pay YOU.
On a serious note, FFA has proven to not be the thing the masses want, so don't expect AA title's to catter much to that particulair playstyle. There are a few MMO that have corpse looting, world pvp, guild politics and conseqence to losing, geuss what many people don't want such game and will bash such game to death. And no I ain't talking about what I want but I am talking what I see the majority of people seem to want, unfortunaly it isn't what you or other seems to want when saying the things you say in this topic.
I heard they have no respawns in RL, what happens if you lag and die?
Perma Death, seems a very wanted thing for some PVP players and lag isn't that much of a issue.
The problem I have with that is the PVP just isn't fun anymore because if you die you lose everything, so then you get people running around naked and you can't use any of your kool items you want to or play how you want to. I liked the death penalty SWG pre cu have where you have a social death penalty and need other professions to help you out.
You will probably never see the type of PvP you are looking for in a persistant world MMORPG again. The key reason being that the wide open "PvP with consequences" model really is completely incompatable with many of the concepts of mainstream persistant world games. At least not in one that you pay a subscription for. The reasons are subtle, but they build up fast. 1. FFA "PvP with consequences" rely on willing victims. Somebody has to lose. Small imbalances in characters abilities multiply quickly until you have the hardcore pvp'ers and the "victims". Guess what? the victims will eventually get bored with this status and leave. The PvP'ers rely on these victims to provide their entertainment instead of AI. When the ego boosting victims leave the PvPers arenrt far behind. 2. Win/Lose state. Ina persistant world "sides" or playstyles will eventually unbalance, leaving one side as completely dominant, and the other unable to meaningfully participate. Think of Shadowbane. As soon as you lost your city, you hit the cancel button. 3. In FFA PvP with consequences, the lowest form of scum, the griefers, PK'ers and other assorted sociopathic personalities will eventually win. every time. The more "order" oriented players will initially seek to hunt them down, but their real preference is the deeper guild politics that the OP asks for. So hunting down and dealing with the absolute scum of humanity is NOT the game they want to be playing. BUT for the griefers, interfering with others gameplay, and pulling them away from their preferred activity IS the game the griefer wants. The "order" players will eventually give up and go elsewhere, leaving the griefers free reign across the server. AC1's Darktide is a great example of this. While a spirited comunity existed for almost a year post release. Eventually the order guilds got bored and the griefer PK guild Blood was left unchallenged. 4. No matter how much you wish for it, FFA unrestricted PvP, with the consequences you describe is a money pit for those running the games. Those who seek it really are a small niche. And any attempt to really implement it has met with effective fiscal failure. As examples, everyone cries for the bad old days of open PK UO. What they forget is that it nearly killed the game. UO was dying until they added the non PK areas, and dying quickly. Everyone hails AC1's Darktide as the premier example of how PvP should be... but the server for almost the entirely of the games history had a far lower population then any other. Darktides peak population was typically only a third of the normal servers average population. And it only ever broke a thousand simultaneous users on very rare occasions. I don't think we need to go into the failures of Shadowbane, and no it wasn't because of the CTD client bug. It was because at the loss of a city everyone hit cancel. Even DAoC which revitalized PvP with its structured Realm vs Realm failed miserably with FFA PVP. Modred was a disaster population and user wise. Contrast this with how popular the more restricted DAoC and WoW servers are. The only true market for the type of PvP you are asking for would seem to be Korea. good luck with finding a game to your tastes over there.
Best post I've ever read on this topic, period.
I know exactly where the OP is coming from as I'd love a game like this too, to some extent. I play a lot of CoD4 atm just to satiate my bloodlust, lol!
However, CoD4 has little/no investment in it in terms of time and reward, etc. Regardless of whether I come up against the best in the world in FFA, there is nothing that I have worked for that that person can take away even if he owns me repeatedly. I imagine most players, myself included, would soon get mighty fed-up if they kept getting repeatly destroyed and losing all their hard earned wares or simply could never acheive anything in some without-rules persistent FFAPVP environment.
I guess the reason I like the sound of this on paper myself is that it replicates a 'real' war scenario and attaches more value to my in-game acheivements, whatever they may be. However, it would seem real wars only happen because at least one of the sides involved has nowhere to run to, i.e. they can't log-off if their home is getting bombed! As the poster quoted above mnetions, in a game with such rules people will do just that, log off.
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
WAR lack death penalty. A pvp game needs some sort of risk, not just rez and back to fight.
Unless u consider loosing time a type of death penalty, if that is the case we would never agree what a feeling of risk in a mmo is.
Time is ALWAYS the death penalty. If you use perma death the time it takes to build a new character is the penalty. If it is losing your gear it is the time to get new gear. Death sickness is the time it takes to get rid of it.
I am sure that you won't agree with anyone that sees time as a penalty because they would be right and you can't see it.
BTW what you guys list isn't REAL pvp....it is a different type. Just because you enjoy running around in gank squads or hanging out in lowbie zones to kill people doesn't make it real PvP. I don't see any of you guys in say WoW deleting/vendering their gear when they lose an arena match because they are that hardcore. Why don't you? Because you want to stay competitive.
Most people do not like games where they have to spend days to become competitive again after 5 minutes of fun.
who are you to say what real pvp is and isn't?
to me losing in pvp should have disastrous consquences, where you lose 5 - 6 hours of exp, and all your items.
then again I am also a big fan of 1 character per server, all items player crafted, skill based games where killing someone comes with huge communal consquences, such a bounties, shunning, and being hunted by the community for the rest of you characters days.
I want a pvp game where you better have a damn good reason for killing someone or you'll be screwed by the community and have to become an outlaw, or remake your character.
The style of pvp that is running around with a bunch of your friends, into anther mob, slaughtering each other, then respawning and doing it again ad nauseum has no interest to me.
I'm talking the real crap: FFAPVP Some form of corpse looting World PvP Guild politics Consequences to losing
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
I believe that this month Archlord is adding a server that will give you that. Quite frankly, if you don't mind grind games, and one that is sort of in the same family as Lineage 2, Archlord could be the game for you. It will be ffa pvp, looting, it has guilds so there is your "politics". I can't speak to the consequences for looting though. - S
Any links? I'd be interested in Archlord with the above features.
I'm talking the real crap: FFAPVP Some form of corpse looting World PvP Guild politics Consequences to losing
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
You just described EVE to a T
EVE has all of this. You blow up, your ship and fittings is gone. You can loot your enemys wreck for what isn't destroyed in the blast.
Guilds control the lawless 0.0 space. They make the laws. You can build up Empires of player stations and destroy empires of enemy space to conqure and destroy. Politics play a HUGE part in wars victory and loss.
Hats off to EVE for having the courage to make a game not following the WoW formula.
Games to look for if this don't suit you might be Earthrise.
I doubt ANY mmo other then EVE will have the balls to have the consequences to loss in PVP.
With EVE though you need patience in learning how to play it. You NEED to follow the tutor. It isn't a game to just jump in and start killing mindlessly.
I'm talking the real crap: FFAPVP Some form of corpse looting World PvP Guild politics Consequences to losing
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
Considering the fact that 95% of MMO players or potential MMO players HATE at least 3 out of 5 of the things you listed....I'm going to go with, "probably never".
Closest you are going to get is Eve Online.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I think EVE has a good system, my grief is that it feels like space-- too big and mostly empty.
Too bad I detest spaceships... I actually hate all car games too.
I'm not big into spaceships either, hell I don't even PvP that much, but Eve has all those things you listed and much, much more. Eve may be small but it doesn't feel small with 250K+ accounts playing on the (single) shard.
I'd suggest you try the trial - maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't (most don't, Eve has never been about mass-market appeal). But if you want pvp with consequences it's about all there is for the foreseeable future.
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of....
Without a doubt that's the truth. PVE'ers had their shot with Vanguard, LOTRO, DDO, EQ2, etc. They had their chance over and over again and they blew it. Now it's OUR time. Earthrise, WELL Online, APB, and even WAR are all pvp centric. Let's show these developers we want dynamic worlds. Not fake worlds that limits our freedom
Anyway what you wanted for time being is EVE. I was personally always happy to give CCP money because at the very least it is different and shows mainstream we don't want more EQ clones
I would say Darkfall, but it's never coming out. Mortal Online will be the game for PvP when it is released, imo.
I laughed inside a bit when I read this post. First off, it is pure speculation to say that Darkfall will never come out. It probably will. The question is whether or not it boasts the features it says it has when it releases. Secondly, you say with confidense that Motal Online "will come out", when Darkfall has more evidense for a game than Mortal does. Both games are driven for PvP, boast extraordinary features, and have no set release date, yet you choose to believe that Mortal has more a chance to release than Darkfall? This is the example of blind faith.
Back to topic, Shadowbane is a great example of pure PvP. It is dated, but it is really deep and fun when I played it (before the wipe).
PvP'ers will have to wait until Turbine gets off their IP addiction and makes AC3 (a revamped version of AC1 with new graphics.) or until some other gaming company realizes how great of a gem AC pvp actually was.
Open world PVP
Death Penalty
Corpse looting
More player skill based than level/gear based ( a level 90 can kill a 180+ if played right)
***The ability to dodge ranged attacks**** None of this auto hit/resist crap.
from what i been gathering about darkfall (if and when this game ever comes out lol ) it seems as thuogh you can kill anyone anywhere anytime, if ya dont like em kill em, if they screw up kill em, lol, i hope this game comes to fruition and has what is stated to have as that would make it a really nice game.
PvP and MMORPG's don't mix. All PvP does is throw the impossible element of class balance into the mix and the PvE balance suffers.
I agree with the notion that a PvP game should be designed with PvP in mind first! If it's truely designed as pvp game, players will overlook any micro PvE imbalances that might appear. After all, the playerbase will be mostly interested in the pvp hence the title of a PVP game.
Class balancing might only be an impossible element of PvE MMORPG's trying to throw in PvP as an afterthought.
I think EVE has a good system, my grief is that it feels like space-- too big and mostly empty.
Too bad I detest spaceships... I actually hate all car games too.
I'm not big into spaceships either, hell I don't even PvP that much, but Eve has all those things you listed and much, much more. Eve may be small but it doesn't feel small with 250K+ accounts playing on the (single) shard.
I'd suggest you try the trial - maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't (most don't, Eve has never been about mass-market appeal). But if you want pvp with consequences it's about all there is for the foreseeable future.
I have played eve for a realllly long time at one stretch and upon logging in i havwe never seen the server population above around 35,000 players at a time, and i have never seen the population lower than 25.000 players, which isnt a bad thing, just thought i would note that as i never seen no where near 250,000 people on at once, i couldnt even fathom trying to go into jita if that many people were on in those numbers, oh yeah if you ever play eve ....make sure you are out of jita before logging, its a bitch to log into the jita sector lol.
The only thing you're asking for are ways to grief unwilling participants, or those types of gameplay being abused until there are no more participants.
What you're asking for will never come, or won't last long. Communities will never permit it as said in various posts in this thread.
Pvpers screw themselves over everytime.
If carebear = Singleplayer game, Pvper = First Person Shooter simple and plain.
When you see a change in the quality of communities, imo, you will then see more open minds to the types of gameplay you are asking for.
If the game redmoon online was still around, that would fit you perfect.But it died ages ago. But IF you look hard enough you would find a certain server for Red moon online, I rather not say its name..
it does have open PVP, And you do drop items after I think 5 or 10 i think But I dont really remember. I dont There are Guild fighting, and taking over stores and what not.
Or you can always do Ultima online, I never played that tho.But a friend of mine did ages ago.
You will probably never see the type of PvP you are looking for in a persistant world MMORPG again. The key reason being that the wide open "PvP with consequences" model really is completely incompatable with many of the concepts of mainstream persistant world games. At least not in one that you pay a subscription for.
* Sigh *
There is such a large amount of confusion about what an MMORPG is about, as well as significant confusion concerning what has actually happened in the history of MMOs. We really don't need more of it.
If you look at the subscriber graphs of Ultima Online, it's apparent that it basically has never been dying, has yet an undetermined time before it does die, and that post-Trammel wasn't a huge boost in subscribers. WoW is wildly successful, it has PvP. EVE is successful, it has PvP. Guild Wars is successful and is largely focused on PvP. Games that aren't very successful, at all? They are the ones that don't understand that the very purpose of a MMORPG is to provide player interaction in an ongoing, contiguous, roleplaying fashion. Those who think the whole point of a MMO is to amass wealth and defend it against all takers are the ones who shouldn't even be in the market for an MMO. They don't understand the genre at all, and they pollute the minds of developers with concepts that have no place in the MMO world. If they choose to hit the "cancel" button after losing a few software data sets, they are actually good riddance.
Darkfall, if it ever arrives in a mostly-functional state, has all the right ingredients for an immersive, tactics-based (not grind-based) MMO that is true to the history of the genre. It would be a huge success.
Comments
You will have a game like this when the people who want only this make up more than 5-10% of the MMO gaming population.
Get into the army and they even will pay YOU.
On a serious note, FFA has proven to not be the thing the masses want, so don't expect AA title's to catter much to that particulair playstyle. There are a few MMO that have corpse looting, world pvp, guild politics and conseqence to losing, geuss what many people don't want such game and will bash such game to death. And no I ain't talking about what I want but I am talking what I see the majority of people seem to want, unfortunaly it isn't what you or other seems to want when saying the things you say in this topic.
I heard they have no respawns in RL, what happens if you lag and die?
|Mortal Online|Gnostaria|
Get into the army and they even will pay YOU.
On a serious note, FFA has proven to not be the thing the masses want, so don't expect AA title's to catter much to that particulair playstyle. There are a few MMO that have corpse looting, world pvp, guild politics and conseqence to losing, geuss what many people don't want such game and will bash such game to death. And no I ain't talking about what I want but I am talking what I see the majority of people seem to want, unfortunaly it isn't what you or other seems to want when saying the things you say in this topic.
I heard they have no respawns in RL, what happens if you lag and die?
Perma Death, seems a very wanted thing for some PVP players
and lag isn't that much of a issue.
Harsh enviroments + conflict + socializing = better social interaction + more meaningful victories for the casual player.
The problem I have with that is the PVP just isn't fun anymore because if you die you lose everything, so then you get people running around naked and you can't use any of your kool items you want to or play how you want to. I liked the death penalty SWG pre cu have where you have a social death penalty and need other professions to help you out.
Best post I've ever read on this topic, period.
I know exactly where the OP is coming from as I'd love a game like this too, to some extent. I play a lot of CoD4 atm just to satiate my bloodlust, lol!
However, CoD4 has little/no investment in it in terms of time and reward, etc. Regardless of whether I come up against the best in the world in FFA, there is nothing that I have worked for that that person can take away even if he owns me repeatedly. I imagine most players, myself included, would soon get mighty fed-up if they kept getting repeatly destroyed and losing all their hard earned wares or simply could never acheive anything in some without-rules persistent FFAPVP environment.
I guess the reason I like the sound of this on paper myself is that it replicates a 'real' war scenario and attaches more value to my in-game acheivements, whatever they may be. However, it would seem real wars only happen because at least one of the sides involved has nowhere to run to, i.e. they can't log-off if their home is getting bombed! As the poster quoted above mnetions, in a game with such rules people will do just that, log off.
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Eve online.
WAR lack death penalty. A pvp game needs some sort of risk, not just rez and back to fight.
Unless u consider loosing time a type of death penalty, if that is the case we would never agree what a feeling of risk in a mmo is.
Time is ALWAYS the death penalty. If you use perma death the time it takes to build a new character is the penalty. If it is losing your gear it is the time to get new gear. Death sickness is the time it takes to get rid of it.
I am sure that you won't agree with anyone that sees time as a penalty because they would be right and you can't see it.
BTW what you guys list isn't REAL pvp....it is a different type. Just because you enjoy running around in gank squads or hanging out in lowbie zones to kill people doesn't make it real PvP. I don't see any of you guys in say WoW deleting/vendering their gear when they lose an arena match because they are that hardcore. Why don't you? Because you want to stay competitive.
Most people do not like games where they have to spend days to become competitive again after 5 minutes of fun.
who are you to say what real pvp is and isn't?
to me losing in pvp should have disastrous consquences, where you lose 5 - 6 hours of exp, and all your items.
then again I am also a big fan of 1 character per server, all items player crafted, skill based games where killing someone comes with huge communal consquences, such a bounties, shunning, and being hunted by the community for the rest of you characters days.
I want a pvp game where you better have a damn good reason for killing someone or you'll be screwed by the community and have to become an outlaw, or remake your character.
The style of pvp that is running around with a bunch of your friends, into anther mob, slaughtering each other, then respawning and doing it again ad nauseum has no interest to me.
I believe that this month Archlord is adding a server that will give you that. Quite frankly, if you don't mind grind games, and one that is sort of in the same family as Lineage 2, Archlord could be the game for you. It will be ffa pvp, looting, it has guilds so there is your "politics". I can't speak to the consequences for looting though. - S
Any links? I'd be interested in Archlord with the above features.
You just described EVE to a T
EVE has all of this. You blow up, your ship and fittings is gone. You can loot your enemys wreck for what isn't destroyed in the blast.
Guilds control the lawless 0.0 space. They make the laws. You can build up Empires of player stations and destroy empires of enemy space to conqure and destroy. Politics play a HUGE part in wars victory and loss.
Hats off to EVE for having the courage to make a game not following the WoW formula.
Games to look for if this don't suit you might be Earthrise.
I doubt ANY mmo other then EVE will have the balls to have the consequences to loss in PVP.
With EVE though you need patience in learning how to play it. You NEED to follow the tutor. It isn't a game to just jump in and start killing mindlessly.
SHOHADAKU
Ooohhhh I've been holding my breath for Darkfall too!
(I've been dead for a few years now and currently typing to you all from "the other side")
Considering the fact that 95% of MMO players or potential MMO players HATE at least 3 out of 5 of the things you listed....I'm going to go with, "probably never".
Closest you are going to get is Eve Online.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Too bad I detest spaceships... I actually hate all car games too.
I'm not big into spaceships either, hell I don't even PvP that much, but Eve has all those things you listed and much, much more. Eve may be small but it doesn't feel small with 250K+ accounts playing on the (single) shard.
I'd suggest you try the trial - maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't (most don't, Eve has never been about mass-market appeal). But if you want pvp with consequences it's about all there is for the foreseeable future.
Without a doubt that's the truth. PVE'ers had their shot with Vanguard, LOTRO, DDO, EQ2, etc. They had their chance over and over again and they blew it. Now it's OUR time. Earthrise, WELL Online, APB, and even WAR are all pvp centric. Let's show these developers we want dynamic worlds. Not fake worlds that limits our freedom
Anyway what you wanted for time being is EVE. I was personally always happy to give CCP money because at the very least it is different and shows mainstream we don't want more EQ clones
I laughed inside a bit when I read this post. First off, it is pure speculation to say that Darkfall will never come out. It probably will. The question is whether or not it boasts the features it says it has when it releases. Secondly, you say with confidense that Motal Online "will come out", when Darkfall has more evidense for a game than Mortal does. Both games are driven for PvP, boast extraordinary features, and have no set release date, yet you choose to believe that Mortal has more a chance to release than Darkfall? This is the example of blind faith.
Back to topic, Shadowbane is a great example of pure PvP. It is dated, but it is really deep and fun when I played it (before the wipe).
Blessings,
MMO migrant.
PvP'ers will have to wait until Turbine gets off their IP addiction and makes AC3 (a revamped version of AC1 with new graphics.) or until some other gaming company realizes how great of a gem AC pvp actually was.
Open world PVP
Death Penalty
Corpse looting
More player skill based than level/gear based ( a level 90 can kill a 180+ if played right)
***The ability to dodge ranged attacks**** None of this auto hit/resist crap.
Massive guild politics (PK'ers vs Anti)
All around just a kick ass game.
PvP and MMORPG's don't mix. All PvP does is throw the impossible element of class balance into the mix and the PvE balance suffers.
from what i been gathering about darkfall (if and when this game ever comes out lol ) it seems as thuogh you can kill anyone anywhere anytime, if ya dont like em kill em, if they screw up kill em, lol, i hope this game comes to fruition and has what is stated to have as that would make it a really nice game.
playing eq2 and two worlds
I agree with the notion that a PvP game should be designed with PvP in mind first! If it's truely designed as pvp game, players will overlook any micro PvE imbalances that might appear. After all, the playerbase will be mostly interested in the pvp hence the title of a PVP game.
Class balancing might only be an impossible element of PvE MMORPG's trying to throw in PvP as an afterthought.
Too bad I detest spaceships... I actually hate all car games too.
I'm not big into spaceships either, hell I don't even PvP that much, but Eve has all those things you listed and much, much more. Eve may be small but it doesn't feel small with 250K+ accounts playing on the (single) shard.
I'd suggest you try the trial - maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't (most don't, Eve has never been about mass-market appeal). But if you want pvp with consequences it's about all there is for the foreseeable future.
I have played eve for a realllly long time at one stretch and upon logging in i havwe never seen the server population above around 35,000 players at a time, and i have never seen the population lower than 25.000 players, which isnt a bad thing, just thought i would note that as i never seen no where near 250,000 people on at once, i couldnt even fathom trying to go into jita if that many people were on in those numbers, oh yeah if you ever play eve ....make sure you are out of jita before logging, its a bitch to log into the jita sector lol.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Darkfall will most likely never come out... And if it does it will have a very short life.
Tell that to their European distributer.
I love how everyone is starting to change their tune from "The game doesn't exist, its never coming out!" to "When it comes out its going to suck!"
Darkfall Travelogues!
Silly Rabbit!
The only thing you're asking for are ways to grief unwilling participants, or those types of gameplay being abused until there are no more participants.
What you're asking for will never come, or won't last long. Communities will never permit it as said in various posts in this thread.
Pvpers screw themselves over everytime.
If carebear = Singleplayer game, Pvper = First Person Shooter simple and plain.
When you see a change in the quality of communities, imo, you will then see more open minds to the types of gameplay you are asking for.
If the game redmoon online was still around, that would fit you perfect.But it died ages ago. But IF you look hard enough you would find a certain server for Red moon online, I rather not say its name..
it does have open PVP, And you do drop items after I think 5 or 10 i think But I dont really remember. I dont There are Guild fighting, and taking over stores and what not.
Or you can always do Ultima online, I never played that tho.But a friend of mine did ages ago.
* Sigh *
There is such a large amount of confusion about what an MMORPG is about, as well as significant confusion concerning what has actually happened in the history of MMOs. We really don't need more of it.
If you look at the subscriber graphs of Ultima Online, it's apparent that it basically has never been dying, has yet an undetermined time before it does die, and that post-Trammel wasn't a huge boost in subscribers. WoW is wildly successful, it has PvP. EVE is successful, it has PvP. Guild Wars is successful and is largely focused on PvP. Games that aren't very successful, at all? They are the ones that don't understand that the very purpose of a MMORPG is to provide player interaction in an ongoing, contiguous, roleplaying fashion. Those who think the whole point of a MMO is to amass wealth and defend it against all takers are the ones who shouldn't even be in the market for an MMO. They don't understand the genre at all, and they pollute the minds of developers with concepts that have no place in the MMO world. If they choose to hit the "cancel" button after losing a few software data sets, they are actually good riddance.
Darkfall, if it ever arrives in a mostly-functional state, has all the right ingredients for an immersive, tactics-based (not grind-based) MMO that is true to the history of the genre. It would be a huge success.
Warhammer, I'm not that enthused.