My thought is that if someone agrees t something they should stick to their word. The game companies are companies. they are making a game and want/need testers. They would like things to be kept secret until the game is released or ready to be talked about in a more pointed manner. So if you "agree" then agree. If you an't agree to a NDA then don't agree. My god, what the hell is happening to people? The sense of self involved entitlement is incredible. If you want to know more about a game before purchasing it then wait for the reviews. Quite frankly, as it stands now, I don't think companies should do betas with players anymore as they are just not reliable. They might as well either hire people or have game preview events (like guild wars or the American/Euro Aion events).
Many companies now only lift the NDA - and some actually never lift it at all - until the day of lunch.
By which time many people, some of the kids, some of them on strictly limited budgets, have pre-ordered and paid for a game which - like Dark & Light, like VG, like AoC - can actually be an unplayable dog.
If those buyers had had some intimation of this - and, considering the biased, puffy reviews coming out of the corrupt game sites, it is not likely they would - then they might not have bought the game. That;s why we need honest and decent players to break the NDAs and tell the real truth about some of those broken, buggy bombs out there
Playing in the close beta is not a right it is a privilege that you were chosen for to test the game for bugs, performance issues, etc. If you are so immature to think that breaking the NDA is fine after agreeing to those rules then you should not be in a closed beta. I think it would be a benefit for the company to find out about players such as you early on so they can weed you out. If you are immature about one agreement you agreed to I also doubt that you are doing much testing what so ever. Probably just in beta for free early playtime.
It's not a privilege at all. It's actually unpaid labour on behalf of a game company.
While your beta testing with an nda you should try and keep things to yourself most of the time. However, if you discover the company is blatantly misleading or lying to people and those lies are going to make into the retail version, then I consider it a duty to reveal the truth to people before they waste their money. If its just a question of whether or not a game sucks (be it game play, graphics or whatever) then thats not really a good reason to break your agreement. You'd have to weigh the good vs. the bad of speaking up. I feel no obligation to protect the lies of gaming companies, esp. when those lies take money out of peoples pockets.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
The ends hardly justify the means. By breaking the NDA, you are basically showing that you could care less about agreements that you enter into. You can justify it by saying "it's just for a game or it doesn't really matter or I'm doing it because I think it's right", but by breaking the agreement, you are doing something wrong. In the end, it is your reputation and your own responsibility to own up to the consequences of your actions, whether it is getting posts deleted and a warning or even a short ban, up to getting kicked out of the beta and being prevented from entering other betas with other companies.
MMORPG has a policy that says it doesn't want people to break the NDA here. Respect them and follow that policy. It's as simple as that. A game might be a dog, just as AoC was. The information will be made available, but not until launch. Deal with it and wait, if you're not up to taking the risk of pre-ordering.
I hate it when someone says something like "I was playing the closed beta for a game and I didnt like the way the water looked"
and then the next post is from some Guy that has to be a boy scout about it and go "Reported for breaking the NDA! Have a nice time in bansville!"
Why do people care so much about the NDA?
Because its a contract you sign to test a product not owned by you. Break the NDA, its breaking your contract with that game. It shouldn't be a big deal; however, it becomes a big deal when someone decides that "talking about the water" should not be a NDA breaker when it actually is.
If ones agrees to the NDA then one needs to abide by it. Pretty simple.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I broke the NDA for the Vanguard beta on these forums. I thought the game was horrible and felt people should know before plopping down the $50 and the monthy fees. I guess the developers over at vanguard read these forums because my beta account was promptly banned. I don't give a crap about NDAs, if i want to talk about a video game ill talk about a video game.
Originally posted by twhint In the end, it is your reputation and your own responsibility to own up to the consequences of your actions, whether it is getting posts deleted and a warning or even a short ban, up to getting kicked out of the beta and being prevented from entering other betas with other companies.
Here is where I laugh openly. Reputation at stake? Being kicked out of the beta or prevented to join other betas? We're talking about an account given out almost on a name alone. As I've said, companies have no means to enforce these NDAs and it's simply foolishness to expect this kind of trust when they take _anyone_ in to test the game.
While your beta testing with an nda you should try and keep things to yourself most of the time. However, if you discover the company is blatantly misleading or lying to people and those lies are going to make into the retail version, then I consider it a duty to reveal the truth to people before they waste their money. If its just a question of whether or not a game sucks (be it game play, graphics or whatever) then thats not really a good reason to break your agreement. You'd have to weigh the good vs. the bad of speaking up. I feel no obligation to protect the lies of gaming companies, esp. when those lies take money out of peoples pockets.
Exactly my point Ginaz; I totally agree.
If the game is POS but it has all the features its claiming to have then I don't see a reason to break the nda in regards to specifics. If someone were to ask me pointed questions about such a game I'd tell them I couldn't answer them. If they asked me if I liked the game, I think saying yes or no would be a valid answer. Thats about as far as breaking an nda as I would go in a situation like that. However, if the devs are claiming and promoting certain features that are not in the game then I would definately tell people about that. If, say, the devs claim you could grown horns and breath fire but it wasn't in the game I would tell people that because they are blatantly lying to potential customers. If they do that, I don't feel obligated or bound to uphold any sort of nda. As a gamer, I feel its important protect other gamers from something like this and keep the company honest. Any company that lies to its customers doesn't deserve any sort of protection from scrutiny.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
The ends hardly justify the means. By breaking the NDA, you are basically showing that you could care less about agreements that you enter into. You can justify it by saying "it's just for a game or it doesn't really matter or I'm doing it because I think it's right", but by breaking the agreement, you are doing something wrong. In the end, it is your reputation and your own responsibility to own up to the consequences of your actions, whether it is getting posts deleted and a warning or even a short ban, up to getting kicked out of the beta and being prevented from entering other betas with other companies. MMORPG has a policy that says it doesn't want people to break the NDA here. Respect them and follow that policy. It's as simple as that. A game might be a dog, just as AoC was. The information will be made available, but not until launch. Deal with it and wait, if you're not up to taking the risk of pre-ordering.
No, that's a specious argument. Not all agreements are the same and not all have the same moral weight. It's like the truth. You cannot lay down absolute rules. You might think to yourself; 'Oh, I never lie' but when your wife says 'Darling, do I look nice in this dress', you always says 'Yes' whether it's true or not.
I broke the NDA for the Vanguard beta on these forums. I thought the game was horrible and felt people should know before plopping down the $50 and the monthy fees. I guess the developers over at vanguard read these forums because my beta account was promptly banned. I don't give a crap about NDAs, if i want to talk about a video game ill talk about a video game.
I like your style, Woodward & Bernstein.
if I ever got in a beta, I think I'd have a similar attitude.
But would I take the same approach to an promise made to my father on his deathbed or an oath sworn in court? Of course not.
And, you know what?, it is possible to hold bother positions simulatenously and still maintain ethicak integrity.
Yeah but that's the point... people need to learn to differentiate between a human atrocity and their agreement to not blab about a video game which NDA they accepted.
I THINK they should be able to handle that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's so good that we have access to the Internet. Actually in some cases I don't even need the Internet. The word of mouth works too. So what's the point of the NDA? In my humble opinion, it's just a marketing tool for building hype. If you don't want to have many info leaks, don't offer the players to beta test it. Use your own in-house employees. but still, these days everything leaks.
So for those NDA boy scouts, we really don't care. The truth is out there
It's so good that we have access to the Internet. Actually in some cases I don't even need the Internet. The word of mouth works too. So what's the point of the NDA? In my humble opinion, it's just a marketing tool for building hype. If you don't want to have many info leaks, don't offer the players to beta test it. Use your own in-house employees. but still, these days everything leaks. So for those NDA boy scouts, we really don't care. The truth is out there
Yes because actually shooting toward some semblance of decency is such a horrible thing. I wonder how many times in your life you had a friend make a promise and they just didn't keep it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Breaking the NDA is like one of the chefs in the kitchen running out into the restaurant and proclaiming that OH MY GOD THE MEAT IS STILL FUCKING FROZEN THIS IS HORRIBLE.
Breaking the NDA is like one of the chefs in the kitchen running out into the restaurant and proclaiming that OH MY GOD THE MEAT IS STILL FUCKING FROZEN THIS IS HORRIBLE.
shh... quiet, your fingers hurt from video games
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Oh wait so breaking a NDA to tell people how things are is 'evil' but game companies selling POS with 30% of content promised on the FINAL BOX is ok?
Sorry moral police. I think NDA breaking is a good thing especially if the game is close to release and still in a very bad state because people are sick of buying overhyped/advertised crap.
Get of your high horses. Thanks.
If you don't like being hampered by a mutually agreed contract, then don't beta test. If you feel like you cannot fulfil a promise, don't make it. Anything else is weak. Whats the confusion?
If you need to see a game before you play it then just wait 2 months after release and see how it plays out, THEN play it. That way you don't get sold anything that you don't know about. That way you can base your opinions off honest reports and reviews by people who have actually played a FINISHED game, and who are not just slating a UNFINISHED game to seem 'cool' on some anonymous forum.
There is no need to get involved in a beta that you cannot honour because you cannnot be trusted to act responsibily or do the job properly.
It actually sounds like you NEED the moral police. You seem confused.
I have an even better idea. I klick on 'I agree' and I betatest (play for free) the game. If I feel like breaking the nda I'l do it.
I have an even better idea. I klick on 'I agree' and I betatest (play for free) the game. If I feel like breaking the nda I'l do it. What you gona do now huh?
Nothing. Game companies have to learn that you will do what you want and they need to take this into account. Otherwise you've shown your quality, enough said.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Breaking the NDA is like one of the chefs in the kitchen running out into the restaurant and proclaiming that OH MY GOD THE MEAT IS STILL FUCKING FROZEN THIS IS HORRIBLE.
I don't think it would be right to proclaim that the meat is still frozen (ie, isn't done). Everything in beta isn't done by definition and is no reason to break an NDA.
But I do think it would be right to proclaim that the meat is contaminated with mad cow disease if the manager told the customer the food was fresh top quality beef. (the manager is lying about the condition of the food.)
And the NDA boy scout says 'you have no right to tell them the food is contaminated! You promise breaking liar!
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
When I click "Accept NDA" and "Join beta" I'm not recieving any special favors. Im providing a free service to test their product. In other markets when you test and help a company finish its product usually you are compensated in some way. If there was some kind of compensation then i could see why you wouldn't break a NDA agreement. I'm spending my valuable time evaluating an unfinished product for which they receive all the benefits. Sure ill still beta test but for my own selfish desires. I join a beta to make sure that when it is released i was able to help make it as bug free as possible so a game i've been waiting for doesn't stink. All the work I do in the game during beta just gets erased anyway. If a beta sucks horribly theres a very large chance its going to suck at release as well. I'm more obligated to warn my fellow gamers than honor the developer's NDA about the giant piece of garbage floating their way.
Maybe I shouldn't be invited to any more betas. Sure I will test your product and give feedback in an attempt to make it the best game possible for its release, but if i want to blab I will. The only way to keep me quiet would be to offer some compensation to the NDA such as cash money or free game time upon release. Then the NDA could be considered legally binding and enforceable.
Only good things will happen to gamers for breaking NDAs. What are the developers going to do about it? Stop giving out beta enrollment? Please, then their only choices are to release a buggy game or use/hire internal people to test their product. Both of which would severely hurt their bottom line.
When I click "Accept NDA" and "Join beta" I'm not recieving any special favors. Im providing a free service to test their product. In other markets when you test and help a company finish its product usually you are compensated in some way. If there was some kind of compensation then i could see why you wouldn't break a NDA agreement. I'm spending my valuable time evaluating an unfinished product for which they receive all the benefits. Sure ill still beta test but for my own selfish desires. I join a beta to make sure that when it is released i was able to help make it as bug free as possible so a game i've been waiting for doesn't stink. All the work I do in the game during beta just gets erased anyway. If a beta sucks horribly theres a very large chance its going to suck at release as well. I'm more obligated to warn my fellow gamers than honor the developer's NDA about the giant piece of garbage floating their way. Maybe I shouldn't be invited to any more betas. Sure I will test your product and give feedback in an attempt to make it the best game possible for its release, but if i want to blab I will. The only way to keep me quiet would be to offer some compensation to the NDA such as cash money or free game time upon release. Then the NDA could be considered legally binding and enforceable. Only good things will happen to gamers for breaking NDAs. What are the developers going to do about it? Stop giving out beta enrollment? Please, then their only choices are to release a buggy game or use/hire internal people to test their product. Both of which would severely hurt their bottom line.
Ok but again, people are not paying attention.
If you click on the NDA and agree to their terms then you are "agreeing to their terms". If there is no mention of compensation then you are agreeing to that. In the real world, when you sign a contract you would look for that. Surely, when you signed the paperwork for your job and you signed your offer letter you made sure they were compensating you. If you didn't see that and you didn't see what benefits you were getting you would of course have them put that in.
You see. People sign documents when they are agreeing to the Terms in that document.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Many companies now only lift the NDA - and some actually never lift it at all - until the day of lunch.
By which time many people, some of the kids, some of them on strictly limited budgets, have pre-ordered and paid for a game which - like Dark & Light, like VG, like AoC - can actually be an unplayable dog.
If those buyers had had some intimation of this - and, considering the biased, puffy reviews coming out of the corrupt game sites, it is not likely they would - then they might not have bought the game. That;s why we need honest and decent players to break the NDAs and tell the real truth about some of those broken, buggy bombs out there
It's not a privilege at all. It's actually unpaid labour on behalf of a game company.
While your beta testing with an nda you should try and keep things to yourself most of the time. However, if you discover the company is blatantly misleading or lying to people and those lies are going to make into the retail version, then I consider it a duty to reveal the truth to people before they waste their money. If its just a question of whether or not a game sucks (be it game play, graphics or whatever) then thats not really a good reason to break your agreement. You'd have to weigh the good vs. the bad of speaking up. I feel no obligation to protect the lies of gaming companies, esp. when those lies take money out of peoples pockets.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Day of lunch? Is this is weird ritual where everyone gathers around to gorge themselves on beer roasted boar ribs?
The ends hardly justify the means. By breaking the NDA, you are basically showing that you could care less about agreements that you enter into. You can justify it by saying "it's just for a game or it doesn't really matter or I'm doing it because I think it's right", but by breaking the agreement, you are doing something wrong. In the end, it is your reputation and your own responsibility to own up to the consequences of your actions, whether it is getting posts deleted and a warning or even a short ban, up to getting kicked out of the beta and being prevented from entering other betas with other companies.
MMORPG has a policy that says it doesn't want people to break the NDA here. Respect them and follow that policy. It's as simple as that. A game might be a dog, just as AoC was. The information will be made available, but not until launch. Deal with it and wait, if you're not up to taking the risk of pre-ordering.
Because its a contract you sign to test a product not owned by you. Break the NDA, its breaking your contract with that game. It shouldn't be a big deal; however, it becomes a big deal when someone decides that "talking about the water" should not be a NDA breaker when it actually is.
If ones agrees to the NDA then one needs to abide by it. Pretty simple.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I broke the NDA for the Vanguard beta on these forums. I thought the game was horrible and felt people should know before plopping down the $50 and the monthy fees. I guess the developers over at vanguard read these forums because my beta account was promptly banned. I don't give a crap about NDAs, if i want to talk about a video game ill talk about a video game.
Here is where I laugh openly. Reputation at stake? Being kicked out of the beta or prevented to join other betas? We're talking about an account given out almost on a name alone. As I've said, companies have no means to enforce these NDAs and it's simply foolishness to expect this kind of trust when they take _anyone_ in to test the game.
Exactly my point Ginaz; I totally agree.
If the game is POS but it has all the features its claiming to have then I don't see a reason to break the nda in regards to specifics. If someone were to ask me pointed questions about such a game I'd tell them I couldn't answer them. If they asked me if I liked the game, I think saying yes or no would be a valid answer. Thats about as far as breaking an nda as I would go in a situation like that. However, if the devs are claiming and promoting certain features that are not in the game then I would definately tell people about that. If, say, the devs claim you could grown horns and breath fire but it wasn't in the game I would tell people that because they are blatantly lying to potential customers. If they do that, I don't feel obligated or bound to uphold any sort of nda. As a gamer, I feel its important protect other gamers from something like this and keep the company honest. Any company that lies to its customers doesn't deserve any sort of protection from scrutiny.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
No, that's a specious argument. Not all agreements are the same and not all have the same moral weight. It's like the truth. You cannot lay down absolute rules. You might think to yourself; 'Oh, I never lie' but when your wife says 'Darling, do I look nice in this dress', you always says 'Yes' whether it's true or not.
I like your style, Woodward & Bernstein.
if I ever got in a beta, I think I'd have a similar attitude.
But would I take the same approach to an promise made to my father on his deathbed or an oath sworn in court? Of course not.
And, you know what?, it is possible to hold bother positions simulatenously and still maintain ethicak integrity.
It's exactly how Nazi Germany got started!
Yeah but that's the point... people need to learn to differentiate between a human atrocity and their agreement to not blab about a video game which NDA they accepted.
I THINK they should be able to handle that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's so good that we have access to the Internet. Actually in some cases I don't even need the Internet. The word of mouth works too. So what's the point of the NDA? In my humble opinion, it's just a marketing tool for building hype. If you don't want to have many info leaks, don't offer the players to beta test it. Use your own in-house employees. but still, these days everything leaks.
So for those NDA boy scouts, we really don't care. The truth is out there
Yes because actually shooting toward some semblance of decency is such a horrible thing. I wonder how many times in your life you had a friend make a promise and they just didn't keep it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Breaking the NDA is like one of the chefs in the kitchen running out into the restaurant and proclaiming that OH MY GOD THE MEAT IS STILL FUCKING FROZEN THIS IS HORRIBLE.
shh... quiet, your fingers hurt from video games
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you don't like being hampered by a mutually agreed contract, then don't beta test. If you feel like you cannot fulfil a promise, don't make it. Anything else is weak. Whats the confusion?
If you need to see a game before you play it then just wait 2 months after release and see how it plays out, THEN play it. That way you don't get sold anything that you don't know about. That way you can base your opinions off honest reports and reviews by people who have actually played a FINISHED game, and who are not just slating a UNFINISHED game to seem 'cool' on some anonymous forum.
There is no need to get involved in a beta that you cannot honour because you cannnot be trusted to act responsibily or do the job properly.
It actually sounds like you NEED the moral police. You seem confused.
I have an even better idea. I klick on 'I agree' and I betatest (play for free) the game. If I feel like breaking the nda I'l do it.
What you gona do now huh?
Nothing. Game companies have to learn that you will do what you want and they need to take this into account. Otherwise you've shown your quality, enough said.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't think it would be right to proclaim that the meat is still frozen (ie, isn't done). Everything in beta isn't done by definition and is no reason to break an NDA.
But I do think it would be right to proclaim that the meat is contaminated with mad cow disease if the manager told the customer the food was fresh top quality beef. (the manager is lying about the condition of the food.)
And the NDA boy scout says 'you have no right to tell them the food is contaminated! You promise breaking liar!
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
again, you are comparing your agreement to a game beta to real crimes or real world issues.
Of course you would report a company for something like that. The problem is there is no perspective here.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
When I click "Accept NDA" and "Join beta" I'm not recieving any special favors. Im providing a free service to test their product. In other markets when you test and help a company finish its product usually you are compensated in some way. If there was some kind of compensation then i could see why you wouldn't break a NDA agreement. I'm spending my valuable time evaluating an unfinished product for which they receive all the benefits. Sure ill still beta test but for my own selfish desires. I join a beta to make sure that when it is released i was able to help make it as bug free as possible so a game i've been waiting for doesn't stink. All the work I do in the game during beta just gets erased anyway. If a beta sucks horribly theres a very large chance its going to suck at release as well. I'm more obligated to warn my fellow gamers than honor the developer's NDA about the giant piece of garbage floating their way.
Maybe I shouldn't be invited to any more betas. Sure I will test your product and give feedback in an attempt to make it the best game possible for its release, but if i want to blab I will. The only way to keep me quiet would be to offer some compensation to the NDA such as cash money or free game time upon release. Then the NDA could be considered legally binding and enforceable.
Only good things will happen to gamers for breaking NDAs. What are the developers going to do about it? Stop giving out beta enrollment? Please, then their only choices are to release a buggy game or use/hire internal people to test their product. Both of which would severely hurt their bottom line.
Ok but again, people are not paying attention.
If you click on the NDA and agree to their terms then you are "agreeing to their terms". If there is no mention of compensation then you are agreeing to that. In the real world, when you sign a contract you would look for that. Surely, when you signed the paperwork for your job and you signed your offer letter you made sure they were compensating you. If you didn't see that and you didn't see what benefits you were getting you would of course have them put that in.
You see. People sign documents when they are agreeing to the Terms in that document.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo