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So basically the tactics are just to zerg?
sgel
Member EpicPosts: 2,197
Because the tactics I've heard people mention just make me laugh...
It seems that the only real tactic of getting anything done is to zerg here or zerg there .....
Would love to hear some other opinions with actual practical tactics...
..Cake..
Comments
Well....Mythic has, time and again, stated that they -want- Zergs. As in, they continually said their game (until now DAOC obviously) was supposed to be geared for big, big battles in RvR. That was the the intended goal at least that's what a friend of mine told me (who has been playing DAoC in a PvP Team for a loooong time).
So it stands to reason that they will try the same with WAR. But on the other hand, the small Group PvP is what many found attractive in DAoC, so i suppose that will also come to WAR eventually. *shrugs* Maybe give it some time.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Ppl who keep saying its all about zerg are obviously bad or they never rolled with a good healer . In t2 on my runepriest i can make a huge diference .
Like yesterday when i logged in t2 warcamp dest was stalling order rigght at our warcamp . I joined the warband started to heal the tank and we pushed em back up to their warcamp and ended up taking 3 BOs and a keep .
Ive done some 3 vs zerg with a 21 swordmaster , 19 warrior priest and me 21 runepriest we were just pwning so bad . I had guard on me and the swordmaster was like unkilable . But ya we were pretty much on top of the food chain beeing 20ish in t2 .
So my guess is a full 24 , really organised on vent , warband could do some crazy stuff in this game . Pug vs pug of course its going to be who has the bigest zerg win .
erm... these are your tactics?... you're a healer.. you heal... this is a guardian... he protects you...
Are you kidding me?... this is what you call a tactical game?...
3 vs zerg?.... the only way the 3 can beat the zerg is if the 3 are using "godmode" or the zerg are "goldfish" players...
There are no other possible ways that you can beat them.... and that's not my opinion... it's what the game provides you with...
..Cake..
Lol by zerg i mean greater number than us , not 40 dest .
But yes yesterday me and the swordmaster + warrriorpriest got stuck in the keep cause the door respawned on us .
We fought for like 10 min inside against like easily 10 ppl . We managed to kill at least 4 before they ALL atack me and end up dieing but was still alot of fun .
BTW if you dont like the game and keep trashing it in every single post i see from you why dont you just go play wow or some game u like ?
The idea is big battles using strategy, not just mindless zerging. I've been a part of keep sieges on both assault and defense, and with both teams having coordination, which lasted upwards of six hours. Other uncoordinated groups would show up and promptly be chewed up and spat out by the opposition. I've seen 30+ people try to take on an 8 man with good composition and a defensible position and get ground up like hamburger.
Sure, once the numbers start to top 4-1, 5-1, the zerg wins. But by all means, feel free to throw a few dozen uncoordinated attackers at my well-composed, coordinated warband of players who know how to play their classes well. You're only making us stronger.
The idea is big battles using strategy, not just mindless zerging. I've been a part of keep sieges on both assault and defense, and with both teams having coordination, which lasted upwards of six hours. Other uncoordinated groups would show up and promptly be chewed up and spat out by the opposition. I've seen 30+ people try to take on an 8 man with good composition and a defensible position and get ground up like hamburger.
Sure, once the numbers start to top 4-1, 5-1, the zerg wins. But by all means, feel free to throw a few dozen uncoordinated attackers at my well-composed, coordinated warband of players who know how to play their classes well. You're only making us stronger.
Erm... zerg's don't HAVE to be mindless...
30 vs 8 ?... I'm sorry that's bullcrap...
Even if they were using their least-damaging spell/ability targeting a random person (not the healers) they'd still be doing enough damage to kill the 8...
Unless they were all 20levels lower and didn't know what w/s/a/d is used for
..Cake..
Which game doesn't allow you to fight vs 10 people and kill 4 before you die?...
This game is supposed to be centered on tactical LOTS vs LOTS people PvP battles... and I'm looking for what exactly it provides for this... if it's tactical or what... if it's not.. it's not worth playing....
I've heard people mentioning tactics... I'm looking for them... what are they?... name a few?...
just don't give me the healer heals, tank tanks and we attack the healer first or we keep in a close group etc etc etc...
I'm talking about tactics above goldfish level... this game is supposed to be the best at this... where is it?... where are the tactics?....
And thanks for your offer to go play WoW... but I gave up a long time ago....
I'm here to talk and be convinced or to just talk... is that a problem for you?
Does my opinion hurt your eyes?
..Cake..
The idea is big battles using strategy, not just mindless zerging. I've been a part of keep sieges on both assault and defense, and with both teams having coordination, which lasted upwards of six hours. Other uncoordinated groups would show up and promptly be chewed up and spat out by the opposition. I've seen 30+ people try to take on an 8 man with good composition and a defensible position and get ground up like hamburger.
Sure, once the numbers start to top 4-1, 5-1, the zerg wins. But by all means, feel free to throw a few dozen uncoordinated attackers at my well-composed, coordinated warband of players who know how to play their classes well. You're only making us stronger.
I did not speak of -mindless- Zerging. *sigh+ When will people -read- posts before they reply to them? A Zerg is just a laaaarge number of players. Doesn't mean they don't use strategy.
However, it often results in nothing like startegy, since very often, the big amount of people will outnumber the defenders greatly. *shrug* Doesn't have to be that way though.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
You've quite clearly never played DAoC, or certainly not recently. Give me two stormlords, preferably animists. Two tanks who have bodyguard. The rest a mix of AoE mezzers, stunners, nukers, and healers, with as much role overlap as possible. I'll set up on the second story of a tower and let you breach the door. Bring your thirty friends; the more the merrier. You're all just realm points to me.
You've quite clearly never played DAoC, or certainly not recently. Give me two stormlords, preferably animists. Two tanks who have bodyguard. The rest a mix of AoE mezzers, stunners, and nukers. I'll set up on the second story of a tower and let you breach the door. Bring your thirty friends; the more the merrier. You're all just realm points to me.
Heh... you egomaniacs make me smile
So you posted your previous example trying to persuade me that it's a tactical game... but just present a formation that is impenetrable?
Surely since it's tactical game I can come up with a "tactic" to pwn your precious defenders?....
sigh....
..Cake..
Well you could zerg but trust me, when playing in guild beta the organized groups just smashed through the coward mexican standoff zerg.
Since the classes dont do too well on their own (like in WoW where classes do pretty well on their own) u need to group up. My witch elf didnt survive much on her own but grouped up with a chosen and zealot it was pure pwnage.
The small organized gruops of 6 will run through the wall of people just standing and hoping that just being a lot of people standing in one spot is enough to win.
You've quite clearly never played DAoC, or certainly not recently. Give me two stormlords, preferably animists. Two tanks who have bodyguard. The rest a mix of AoE mezzers, stunners, nukers, and healers, with as much role overlap as possible. I'll set up on the second story of a tower and let you breach the door. Bring your thirty friends; the more the merrier. You're all just realm points to me.
Which is a totally useless example.
CC in WAR compared to Daoc is nearly nonexistant. Back in the days you could CC entire groups with a few people doing a single button press and there was little to nothing you could do about it.
In WAr there is *no* such CC, nothing even similar, therefor that scenario you talk about is incredibly less likely to occur.
I got a feeling that in this game, number of people called retards will be far greater than in any previous game.
The tactics for pwning my precious defenders is to hit it with two groups, one willing to suicide on the meat grinder posted above, and the other to disable said meat grinder so that it can be disassembled. It's using numbers to defeat a well-rounded enemy force with a good strategy and a defensible position. That's the definition of tactical game right there. Now add WAR's collision detection to the mix, and you've got an entirely different level of tactics. I put two Chosen in that breached door with healers out of LOS keeping them alive and nukers sniping from behind. I've just put a cork in a doorway that you'll be lucky to breach with ten people.
Tactics > numbers. This was a thread about how zerg is the answer, right?
Actually, zerg or zerging, is from Starcraft, not WoW. People love using in WoW, but I've been using that term for a long while before that game came out when i played Starcraft. It refers to quickly building what was necessary to produce zerglings, which are the cheapest and quickest of the three races to produce, and usually means that before you could have a few marines, or a couple zealots, the enemy could rush your base with several lings.
And until I play this game, I have no comment on the tactics. I hope that mindless zergs dont work well, I got sick of them in WoW, only thing everyone does is zerg some place. I never experienced the old epic AV, and im sad I probably never will...
actually the (civilized) armies of old had formations and battle orders, shieldwalls up front,
knights to outflank, archers in the back, cannons on the hill....
mmos are so heavy on equipment and level and so impossible at forming a formation that most of these old days tactics get replaced by free running individuals fighting on their own : introducing THE ZERG
sadly i couldnt participate in a keep defense yet in war but i would expect that the heavy armored classes would try to hold strategical positions like the gate or a bridge and not just all players running aimlessly all over the battlefield trying to hit an opponent here or there.
btw i was looking forward to this in aoc but it was probably to hard to implement even with the rubber band idea.
if your bored, visit my blog at:
http://craylon.wordpress.com/ dealing with the look of mmos with the nvidia 3d vision glasses
Most of the time I have seen zerging in WoW it was massing up to ride right through the other players to a flag and fight in mass there. Which in wow since you can go right through the other players there is nothing to prevent you from figthing at the objective.
Since in War there is collision detection one can actually form bottle necks or choke points that can funnel a mass of players there for cutting down their numbers. I am not in beta but from what I have read from other players this seems to be the case. So like in the movie 300 you can create a point where a huge mass is actually slowed down by a smaller force. Until it is outflanked or just worn down by attrition or even by superior skilled fighters or tactics that would dislodge them. Unlike in wow you can't ride right through the choke point.
This then does create more tactics. Outflanking and finding weak spots in the defenses. Different make up in the actual assault force used at the choke point. Using numbers in a war of attrition. So does seem like this could open up other strategies. Zerging or massing to attack a single point has always been an effective battle tactic. Napoleon often used this strategy. After laying down a battery of fire and finding a week point he would mass his troops and charge that point. Dividing his enemy and breaking through their lines. Usually then to envelope them and destroy them in mass.
Again I am not in beta so I have no first hand evidence. I am just stating my opinion from what I have read from others. Love to see just how this would work on with well organized teams. Zerging is always an option but all tactics can be countered. Even in wow zerging does not always work. And I do remember the old days of playing starcraft. A good cross fire and defense of a few marines always worked for me to break up a quick assault.
erm... these are your tactics?... you're a healer.. you heal... this is a guardian... he protects you...
Are you kidding me?... this is what you call a tactical game?...
3 vs zerg?.... the only way the 3 can beat the zerg is if the 3 are using "godmode" or the zerg are "goldfish" players...
There are no other possible ways that you can beat them.... and that's not my opinion... it's what the game provides you with...
Yup , goldfish = the mass...
The same ones claiming they have skills and duped Mythic into dumbing down their RvR for WAR.
8 v60 was easyly done in DAoC. 70% of people who PVP in MMO's are dumb, uncordinated clickers.
Learn to use hotkeys that would help 50% of the 70% I mentioned right off the bat.
The other 20% will never be worth a damn. They are the people happy to join random groups with random joes. They don't play enough to get to know anyone.
Another reason Mythic got duped into making alot of classes easy mode in that they are self sufucient and patch heal themselves.
Can't have a dedicated healer class in wAR because only so few people are ever really happy with and good with them. Reason the PUGS in DAoC always got rolled. Lackluster wannabe healers.
GOOD PLAYERS (pros) playing healing classes for top guilds in DAoC did not just stand in the back in heal. They kited and moved around more than the tanks.
War is dumbed down RVR for dummies. It's for the people who are leaving WoW because crap PVP and for the zerg of DAoC who still to this day is a bunch of noobs.
erm... these are your tactics?... you're a healer.. you heal... this is a guardian... he protects you...
Are you kidding me?... this is what you call a tactical game?...
3 vs zerg?.... the only way the 3 can beat the zerg is if the 3 are using "godmode" or the zerg are "goldfish" players...
There are no other possible ways that you can beat them.... and that's not my opinion... it's what the game provides you with...
Lol seriously dude what do you expect from an mmorpg ?? This isn't some rts game or fps/rts. No one is above you saying what you should be doing.
if you want serious tactics go play warcraft 3 or starcraft. Those 2 games are the best games if you want to talk about tactics.
The only reason a zerg lost is mostly because of lack of healers. Most people who Zerg in DAoC dont have the healers. So they were easily wipe out in by groups who usually have two healers.
I'm not in WAR beta but the comments from one poster here ow he easily turn the tide of a battle with one healer. It just makes me sick. This is the primary reason I quit and hated DAoC after years of play. If you did not have a healer you were stuck sitting around doing nothing or zerging in RvR. Also, The keep seiges just werent fun when your opponent had more heals.
I wish Paul kept his word of having no or little healing. Sadly that change few years ago.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Finding people who play healing classes well takes skill. Having them want to group or be in your guild takes even more skill.
There a book by Rick Warren called "Left behind" ,you can read that and cry less here.
Finding people who play healing classes well takes skill. Having them want to group or be in your guild takes even more skill.
There a book by Rick Warren called "Left behind" ,you can read that and cry less here.
WTF? were you the one "left behind" in your child hood? Such an odd comment in a thread of strategy and tactics of zerging.
I was that healer. It very easy playing a healer. The most difficult is the other utility or avoiding damage but all or maybe most classes have this. What the problem is a class what is needed to enjoy the game is underplayed. Also what creates a bigger zerg.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Define zerg please.
I know what it means but I want to know how people are using it in this context.
I don't get comments like how can 3 ever beat a zerg? I just don't get why people are asking about this.
I'll give you the three rules to winning RvR in WAR.
1. Use voice chat.
2. Have a good balance of healers to DPS.
3. Have more people than the other side.
= You win.
You might be able to get by with just 2 and 3, but if you are up against a group with 1 and 2, you will probably lose, unless you have a LOT more of 3.
Edit: To Green Chaos - Zerging isn't really a hard set number, it basically describes when an opponent wins because of quantity, not quality.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Well here is the answer to your question and WHY WAR is a zerg fest:
Lack of crowd control. (CC)
For those living out in a cage these last 2 years, PvP is now all about crowd control and action/reaction in the fighting scenes. The more sorts of CC, the better and varied the PvP. Instant or casted. It's the ability to fight over INITIATIVE in the control that makes PvP rock. (from sheep, to trap, from cyclone to dispell, from winclip to banish, from mindcontrol to just stun). About 40 different CC ... makes for a very varied fighting according to the groups and classes you meet. The Beatles are all about CC now - saying spamming two buttons are the ones that have no idea.
The challenge is to know who you are fighting as a group and with which crowd control tools you can actively interfere. OR with wich tools you can counter the interference and so take the initiative.
3 elements now;
With hardly ANY decent CC (one snare doesn't make a CC )in WAR, AND with slow paced combat and awful reset timings, AND a very laggy Beta situation), I think that only the DIE HARD fans are satisfied with what they get.
If you don't have CC, the only thing you'd do is smash, spell and heal. Making for an ideal zerg fest where the fighting is all about hitting and healing until one group wins (99% the ones with the larger groups).
Add in the auto following attack - killing all other initiative - and makes me wonder where that so called famous "skill" is.
I can understand the DAoC guys because in that game - even made 7 years ago - it was all about CC and initiative. I can't possibly understand Mythic themselves came up with a rather very dull banging system. To promote zerg? Or did the development team changed that much.