The problem is that the "hardcore pvp'ers" are generally anti-social douche bags. Their idea of pvp is praying on the weak and avoiding confrontations with those that might beat them. I don't mind pvp but I don't want some griefing jerk disrupting me when I want to do something else. I don't want it forced upon me. I really hope the "hardcore pvp'ers" find a game they like so they can leave the rest of us alone.
To be fair there are some wildly diferent types of PvP'ers. The ones that you describe are (or at least used to) be reffered to typically as PK'ers. We really haven't seen alot from them in recent times as so few games have PvP rulesets that allow PK'ers to exist or flourish.
I always think Turbine accidentally hit on the perfect formula for dealingwith the PK playerbase. They used some leftover beta test hardware to create a completely unrestricted "Lord of the Flies" type FFA PvP server. Darktide. It gave the PK'ers a place to call home, and acted as sort of a roach motel to keep most of the truly anti social deviants off of the regular servers and safely away from the bulk of the paying customer base.
I was hoping for news on a MMORPG meets FPS game by now. Basically duke it out on huge battlefields. I know fury tried something like it... But that game was poorly done and wasn't polished.
You will probably never see the type of PvP you are looking for in a persistant world MMORPG again. The key reason being that the wide open "PvP with consequences" model really is completely incompatable with many of the concepts of mainstream persistant world games. At least not in one that you pay a subscription for. The reasons are subtle, but they build up fast. 1. FFA "PvP with consequences" rely on willing victims. Somebody has to lose. Small imbalances in characters abilities multiply quickly until you have the hardcore pvp'ers and the "victims". Guess what? the victims will eventually get bored with this status and leave. The PvP'ers rely on these victims to provide their entertainment instead of AI. When the ego boosting victims leave the PvPers arenrt far behind. 2. Win/Lose state. Ina persistant world "sides" or playstyles will eventually unbalance, leaving one side as completely dominant, and the other unable to meaningfully participate. Think of Shadowbane. As soon as you lost your city, you hit the cancel button. 3. In FFA PvP with consequences, the lowest form of scum, the griefers, PK'ers and other assorted sociopathic personalities will eventually win. every time. The more "order" oriented players will initially seek to hunt them down, but their real preference is the deeper guild politics that the OP asks for. So hunting down and dealing with the absolute scum of humanity is NOT the game they want to be playing. BUT for the griefers, interfering with others gameplay, and pulling them away from their preferred activity IS the game the griefer wants. The "order" players will eventually give up and go elsewhere, leaving the griefers free reign across the server. AC1's Darktide is a great example of this. While a spirited comunity existed for almost a year post release. Eventually the order guilds got bored and the griefer PK guild Blood was left unchallenged. 4. No matter how much you wish for it, FFA unrestricted PvP, with the consequences you describe is a money pit for those running the games. Those who seek it really are a small niche. And any attempt to really implement it has met with effective fiscal failure. As examples, everyone cries for the bad old days of open PK UO. What they forget is that it nearly killed the game. UO was dying until they added the non PK areas, and dying quickly. Everyone hails AC1's Darktide as the premier example of how PvP should be... but the server for almost the entirely of the games history had a far lower population then any other. Darktides peak population was typically only a third of the normal servers average population. And it only ever broke a thousand simultaneous users on very rare occasions. I don't think we need to go into the failures of Shadowbane, and no it wasn't because of the CTD client bug. It was because at the loss of a city everyone hit cancel. Even DAoC which revitalized PvP with its structured Realm vs Realm failed miserably with FFA PVP. Modred was a disaster population and user wise. Contrast this with how popular the more restricted DAoC and WoW servers are. The only true market for the type of PvP you are asking for would seem to be Korea. good luck with finding a game to your tastes over there.
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of. The crap I listed could work, it's just you can't cut corners. There's plenty of people out there who want hardcore pvp... it just has to be done correctly.
Whats funny is, in EQ on Rallos Zek, there were major imbalances between the classes.
People would group with you, wait till you were low on health, and finish you off and loot you.
I never even questioned the fairness of this, it was part of the atmosphere, and you learned to work with it... It was part of what made the game entertaining and fun for me.
I mean, i remember groups of Wizards waiting at zone lines to hit you with a bunch of Ice Comets just cause they were tipped off by some lower level player that you were coming with gear that was valuable if looted.
It was part of the system, you didnt' travel alone in your best gear. You learned what was safe, and what wasn't. The kinship you formed with guilds and friends was amplified by this tough system. And i remember it being a ton of fun. I quit shortly after Velious because the game was getting alittle to big and involved for me at the time. But i might never of left if the situation had been different.
Before that i played Mythic Entertainments DFC. Which had full loot and major class imbalances. They were intentional imbalances though based on the World you played in. Sure a Wizard could do a ton more damage then a Monk. But it was hard leveling up a Wizard, and keeping them alive during fights was difficult.
That game also was a blast, and i remember it being SOO much fun. I remember invading the Good Realm with my Zombie, and catching a Ranger in his hunting gear (which was the good stuff people would run to banks to save when invaders were sighted). I ended up beating him with the help of a werewolf, and stripping him naked. I then hid near the docks waiting for the boat that would return me to the evil realm where i could stow away my loot.
Was probably the scariest 10 minutes i've ever spent in a game. I just stole someones good gear, and I know he was telling all his friends what happened. There is only one dock, and one boat that takes me home, and they know where that is. All they have to do is kill me before i get on that boat, and all his stuff, plus the stuff i invaded in is theirs.
Anyways, no game has compared to rule sets like original RZ on EQ, or DFC.
Its apples to oranges. You play games with serious pvp and loot a completely different way then you would the games without it. Its a different mind set, and different way of thinking and approaching the game play. Its just not comparable with games that don't have systems like these.
I just created my account on mmorpg.com and for one reason, to find a modern rallos EQ mmo. For those of you that say most people dont like true hardcore pvp, you can scratch me off that list, Ive been waiting for ages for a good one. Even considered starting AC for the 1st time because of its reputation. But I really think AC is too old now. I sure hope a new mmo like ole eq RZ comes out.
I'm talking the real crap: FFAPVP Some form of corpse looting World PvP Guild politics Consequences to losing I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated.
We already had that back in 1997-1999 with Ultima Online.
Unfortunately we lost it to corporatism, but it was one wonderous window of opportunity for those that got to experience it.
Im assuming the majority of people here did not play Asherons Call in its prime (back in 2000-2002 mainly) on the darktide server.. quite possibility the best PvP ever made.. talking ffapvp wherever you are.. dropping not only money but sometimes some of your best crafted bows/weapons.. and battling guilds that have a strict kill on site rule and many lifestones/towns and dungeons being fought at... the consequences of attacking a certain person could mean an entire guild attacks you when they see you.. now that was a real pvp game done right before they added PKL and all those lame patches but even then and now its still has that main element.. the problem is unless turbine creates a much more updated and advertised Asherons call 3 and sticks to the original idea of asherons call 1, there will not be a game like this because of the pussy, whiny majority of MMO gamers now, most of them under the age of 15, who have the notion that PvP is going into a batlleground or specified zone, attacking someone or being killed, losing nothing.. removing all types of risk.. thanks WoW for breeding so many tools who do not understand what PvP is (Player vs player.. which to me means any player versus any player anywhere)... god i hate MMO's now
Warhammer will be the greatest PvP mmorpg in history. Warhammer will hail the destruction of carebear mmorpgs, which means your days are numbered. And for your information pretty much all the biggest and best clans in the gamer community are flocking to Warhammer Online.
Spoils of War - The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.
Warhammer will be the greatest PvP mmorpg in history. Warhammer will hail the destruction of carebear mmorpgs, which means your days are numbered. And for your information pretty much all the biggest and best clans in the gamer community are flocking to Warhammer Online.
without loot Warhammer is just as carebear as wow because there is no risk in PvP
Warhammer will be the greatest PvP mmorpg in history. Warhammer will hail the destruction of carebear mmorpgs, which means your days are numbered. And for your information pretty much all the biggest and best clans in the gamer community are flocking to Warhammer Online.
I don't know, I think it'll have a hard time topping its big brother, DAoC. Warhammer is a great PvP game, even if there's little risk in actually fighting. For those who think you have to suffer for PvP to be worth it, Darkfall is coming along, and that will take many crowns (PvP and PvE included) if all goes well.
the only released MMORPGs that are pvp games i can think of are, EVE and Lineage2.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Hahaha I did find that funny, but I understand some people cannot help there tastes in humour. I didnt actually take it literally but just didnt find it humorous anyways I should just accept your sense of humour friend which I do now.
Hahaha I did find that funny, but I understand some people cannot help there tastes in humour. I didnt actually take it literally but just didnt find it humorous anyways I should just accept your sense of humour friend which I do now.
Alright w00t, tohught I pissed off another person but not w00t because that'd be my 1st of the day
Anyways ya...I'll stop my sick humor....Oooh I got one....wait...
Real PvP? Err.....Umm....Damn.....I dunno OP, you might've been screwed, so far WAR, but eh that's not everyone's taste...There's not much on the market if you think about it. If you reall look at all the mmos that you can play....you only see like 2 that'd be worth subbing...bummer. Well I guess you should try *shivers* consoles for now. Or just read, like I do. Otherland's a good book people might be interested in....I dunno /shrug
FFAPVP- Shadowbane (PvP anywhere you want, against whoever you want. You can go out for some solo PvP, or you can grab your guildies and go for some mines involving anywhere from 20 to 60 people fighting in multiple way battles, or go and have a NvN Bane against some people you dislike)
Some form of corpse looting - Shadowbane (Anything in the players inventory is lootable, such as gold, resources and other items. Their gear on their body is not, but it does take damage and needs to be repaired)
World PvP - Shadowbane (One entire world, no instances, everyone exists in the same land, and about 99% of the map are PvP areas.)
Guild politics - Shadowbane (Each server is completely driven by guilds and nations. Hence, guild politics are a very essential and prominent factor)
Consequences to losing - Shadowbane (Loose your town, your inventory, your gear breaks, your guild falls apart)
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated. - Shadowbane is free, however some would consider out-dated.
MrGimpz Crash and Burn valeofshadows.21.forumer.com
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Comments
To be fair there are some wildly diferent types of PvP'ers. The ones that you describe are (or at least used to) be reffered to typically as PK'ers. We really haven't seen alot from them in recent times as so few games have PvP rulesets that allow PK'ers to exist or flourish.
I always think Turbine accidentally hit on the perfect formula for dealingwith the PK playerbase. They used some leftover beta test hardware to create a completely unrestricted "Lord of the Flies" type FFA PvP server. Darktide. It gave the PK'ers a place to call home, and acted as sort of a roach motel to keep most of the truly anti social deviants off of the regular servers and safely away from the bulk of the paying customer base.
"Lord of the flies" mmo, sounds cool
Give Age of Conan about 6 - 8 months and it will have everything the OP listed. I'm sure.
I was hoping for news on a MMORPG meets FPS game by now. Basically duke it out on huge battlefields. I know fury tried something like it... But that game was poorly done and wasn't polished.
Pats let Manning win.
If anything it's the carebear/pve games people are getting sick of. The crap I listed could work, it's just you can't cut corners. There's plenty of people out there who want hardcore pvp... it just has to be done correctly.
Whats funny is, in EQ on Rallos Zek, there were major imbalances between the classes.
People would group with you, wait till you were low on health, and finish you off and loot you.
I never even questioned the fairness of this, it was part of the atmosphere, and you learned to work with it... It was part of what made the game entertaining and fun for me.
I mean, i remember groups of Wizards waiting at zone lines to hit you with a bunch of Ice Comets just cause they were tipped off by some lower level player that you were coming with gear that was valuable if looted.
It was part of the system, you didnt' travel alone in your best gear. You learned what was safe, and what wasn't. The kinship you formed with guilds and friends was amplified by this tough system. And i remember it being a ton of fun. I quit shortly after Velious because the game was getting alittle to big and involved for me at the time. But i might never of left if the situation had been different.
Before that i played Mythic Entertainments DFC. Which had full loot and major class imbalances. They were intentional imbalances though based on the World you played in. Sure a Wizard could do a ton more damage then a Monk. But it was hard leveling up a Wizard, and keeping them alive during fights was difficult.
That game also was a blast, and i remember it being SOO much fun. I remember invading the Good Realm with my Zombie, and catching a Ranger in his hunting gear (which was the good stuff people would run to banks to save when invaders were sighted). I ended up beating him with the help of a werewolf, and stripping him naked. I then hid near the docks waiting for the boat that would return me to the evil realm where i could stow away my loot.
Was probably the scariest 10 minutes i've ever spent in a game. I just stole someones good gear, and I know he was telling all his friends what happened. There is only one dock, and one boat that takes me home, and they know where that is. All they have to do is kill me before i get on that boat, and all his stuff, plus the stuff i invaded in is theirs.
Anyways, no game has compared to rule sets like original RZ on EQ, or DFC.
Its apples to oranges. You play games with serious pvp and loot a completely different way then you would the games without it. Its a different mind set, and different way of thinking and approaching the game play. Its just not comparable with games that don't have systems like these.
I just created my account on mmorpg.com and for one reason, to find a modern rallos EQ mmo. For those of you that say most people dont like true hardcore pvp, you can scratch me off that list, Ive been waiting for ages for a good one. Even considered starting AC for the 1st time because of its reputation. But I really think AC is too old now. I sure hope a new mmo like ole eq RZ comes out.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
We already had that back in 1997-1999 with Ultima Online.
Unfortunately we lost it to corporatism, but it was one wonderous window of opportunity for those that got to experience it.
im waiting to see wat kotor online is gonna be like
Im assuming the majority of people here did not play Asherons Call in its prime (back in 2000-2002 mainly) on the darktide server.. quite possibility the best PvP ever made.. talking ffapvp wherever you are.. dropping not only money but sometimes some of your best crafted bows/weapons.. and battling guilds that have a strict kill on site rule and many lifestones/towns and dungeons being fought at... the consequences of attacking a certain person could mean an entire guild attacks you when they see you.. now that was a real pvp game done right before they added PKL and all those lame patches but even then and now its still has that main element.. the problem is unless turbine creates a much more updated and advertised Asherons call 3 and sticks to the original idea of asherons call 1, there will not be a game like this because of the pussy, whiny majority of MMO gamers now, most of them under the age of 15, who have the notion that PvP is going into a batlleground or specified zone, attacking someone or being killed, losing nothing.. removing all types of risk.. thanks WoW for breeding so many tools who do not understand what PvP is (Player vs player.. which to me means any player versus any player anywhere)... god i hate MMO's now
When games like Call of duty 4 Halo Unreal Tournament and Gears of war stop selling like hot cakes.
Darkfall!!!!
DARKFALL ONLINE IS COMING OUT. They just started beta + released a 30 minute video!
PVP'ers rejoice.
Darkfall!
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
Warhammer will be the greatest PvP mmorpg in history. Warhammer will hail the destruction of carebear mmorpgs, which means your days are numbered. And for your information pretty much all the biggest and best clans in the gamer community are flocking to Warhammer Online.
Spoils of War - The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it.
without loot Warhammer is just as carebear as wow because there is no risk in PvP
I don't know, I think it'll have a hard time topping its big brother, DAoC. Warhammer is a great PvP game, even if there's little risk in actually fighting. For those who think you have to suffer for PvP to be worth it, Darkfall is coming along, and that will take many crowns (PvP and PvE included) if all goes well.
Darkfall Travelogues!
You mean, Warhammer will be the greatest carebear PVP MMO of all times?
Please do not ever come back to mmorpg.com ever again you are reported, I would not be suprised if the cops dont show up at your door.
the only released MMORPGs that are pvp games i can think of are, EVE and Lineage2.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
lol....
But if so. I will challenge them to a duel. I have a T4 Epic Katana with Evilz Powah!
But they will never find me in my guild made fortress of underwear, panties, and cardboard!
(Sorry I'm alittle tired, I like to act silly at this time of night
I didnt think you really did it but I did not find that funny at all. But its ok for the most part.
Err...what? You took me seriously....wow that changed my whole life....no one at all took me seriously!
Anyways sorry, I have a sick humor
Hahaha I did find that funny, but I understand some people cannot help there tastes in humour. I didnt actually take it literally but just didnt find it humorous anyways I should just accept your sense of humour friend which I do now.
Alright w00t, tohught I pissed off another person
but not w00t because that'd be my 1st of the day 
Anyways ya...I'll stop my sick humor....Oooh I got one....wait...
Real PvP? Err.....Umm....Damn.....I dunno OP, you might've been screwed, so far WAR, but eh that's not everyone's taste...There's not much on the market if you think about it. If you reall look at all the mmos that you can play....you only see like 2 that'd be worth subbing...bummer. Well I guess you should try *shivers* consoles for now. Or just read, like I do. Otherland's a good book people might be interested in....I dunno /shrug
FFAPVP- Shadowbane (PvP anywhere you want, against whoever you want. You can go out for some solo PvP, or you can grab your guildies and go for some mines involving anywhere from 20 to 60 people fighting in multiple way battles, or go and have a NvN Bane against some people you dislike)
Some form of corpse looting - Shadowbane (Anything in the players inventory is lootable, such as gold, resources and other items. Their gear on their body is not, but it does take damage and needs to be repaired)
World PvP - Shadowbane (One entire world, no instances, everyone exists in the same land, and about 99% of the map are PvP areas.)
Guild politics - Shadowbane (Each server is completely driven by guilds and nations. Hence, guild politics are a very essential and prominent factor)
Consequences to losing - Shadowbane (Loose your town, your inventory, your gear breaks, your guild falls apart)
I'd literally pay $45 a month to play somethings on these lines that's not outdated. - Shadowbane is free, however some would consider out-dated.
MrGimpz
Crash and Burn
valeofshadows.21.forumer.com
Sci-Fi - EVE (out right now and still going strong)
Fantasy - Darkfall - Beta in the next few months with a release shortly after
New 17min gameplay video was release on Friday and here is a stream for it : http://vimeo.com/1631260
if you dont think it will ever come out, well i guess just remember the name and when it does come out look it up. no harm in that.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos