Originally posted by Eanwen At any rate I'm glad to see that there will be a focus on something other than loot and levels, but my concern is similar to those that have been raised already. Horizons and Ryzom both were supposed to have an emphasis on the story, however what I found myself doing on a daily basis was the grind.
I'm with you on that. In HZ, once the new quests came out, I ran through them and did them in about 10 min....and then went back to grinding for a week or three until the next "Dynamic" story patch was implemented.
The only difference was that most games that say they are story based have an immovable story. Nothing you do effects it. Week 1 this happens if you participate or not. Week 2 you get another patch and the next thing happens. Or maybe it's even on the most interactive ones like SWG, the most people who do one side of the quest effects the outcome at the end of the 3 month arc. (Not very interactive in my eyes). But nothing in between really changes the static content of the story.
Whereas with Wish, you can interact immediately and have an effect. The content is consumable....which HZ's was not. HZ had static content. You killing a million undead didnt trigger anything else. But in Wish, you killing one undead can possibly trigger something else.
Obviously, you must see to believe, but I strongly suggest you read our dev journals on Live Content. This should answer your concerns about how we intend to functionally make story the focus:
Stories and events don't work in mmorpgs. They are in great in theory but in reality they just create lag and take away dev time from creating usable content. Maybe some type of instancing might be more effective. That being said it would be nice to see someone re-create a tabletop or even a single player feel as far as a story. Although, I will believe when I see it.
HZ had the same thing happen to them that happened oin WIsh a change in developemnt shifting the games focus from pvp to story. The result was a failure in combat and story.
What I do find intriguing about Wish is thier three tiered guild system and thier comments that towns can be owened by guilds thru non-conventional means. Rather than by combat, guilds can take towns thru some sort of fame system that would measure contribution to the town. I have not seen any specific ideas on how this would work. The rumors I have heard are questing and crafting.
December 1 for ob was announced awhile back but it still sounds very optomistic. Looking at the state of the game in screenshots and what information is released it does not look anywhere near ob unless they are holding back.
Despite my negaitive atttitude I have found often that games that I expect not to like I usually like. Most games are fun if you give them an oppurtunity. But given the inconsistent development history of Wish and its attempts to try different ideas makes me think its a longshot that they can get all they need to do in such a limited time while putting out a quality product. The problem with breaking the cookie cutter model is it takes a lot more time than just copyying old systems. The only game that appears to be on track to do somethging different may be Dark and Light. But even they have to be a big longshot. Mourning and Wish both appear to be very unfinished to expect a realease any time soon.
Wish is the first Ultra Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (UMMORPG). "Ultra" means that Wish supports more than 10,000 simultaneous players in a single, seamless world, without any zones or "shards".
I just read that on their site... isn't EVE a UMMORPG then?
From what Zippy said a couple posts back it sounds like he thinks Wish is planning Open Beta in Dec and then being released.As far As I know from actually reading a few things about the game (imagine that ) There is an Open Beta from Dec 1- Dec 31 /04 ..Followed by another Development phase (closed Beta) ...Followed by At least one more Open Beta (3.0) Where they probably fix any major problems found in beta 2 & tweek everything that needs it ..Then they hope to release in 2nd quarter 05 sometime..but they have stated many times they will not release until its ready (I read this as they'll use more Betas if they need to )
Zippy, I think you may be confusing "elimination" with "distraction". From what i'm seeing here, the level grind will still be there in every sense, but the story immersion that the game will promote will make it a far less focused aspect to the player. To me, it seems that the developers want to make the story as focused and immersive for the player as they can, distracting thier attention away from the level grind itself. You'll still level, but you'll be so immersed in the story aspect, and so busy with the other activities that are there to have fun with, that you won't be as attentive in the fact that you are leveling.
Originally posted by Zippy Stories and events don't work in mmorpgs.
That's not entirely accurate.
They dont work in static worlds. They just dont. Inserting Dynamic content in static worlds is just asking for trouble. If the world isnt built from the ground up dynamic, then it's a problem from the get go, like everyone storming into a static dungeon because they heard there was an event going on, etc. But if the world is built that all the content is dynamic, and there are events queued up and going on all over the place, then you have balance.
Originally posted by Zippy HZ had the same thing happen to them that happened oin WIsh a change in developemnt shifting the games focus from pvp to story. The result was a failure in combat and story.
Again, slight skew of the facts.
HZ didnt even have a working engine when the blackout happened and they scrapped out their entire basis of race wars and turned it into a derivative game. In essence, they gutted almost every bit of their design to that point and went back to ground zero.
Wish was in Beta 1, it had a working engine, and a lot of the core systems and placeholders in place at the time when Lead Designer Dave Rickey left and they decided to refocus on dynamic content instead of HvH....but the thing everyone keeps overlooking is that even though they got rid of HvH, the PvP in Wish was always planned on being consensual, even the HvH. So this was a major change, but not to the level of what HZ did which was basically a complete and utter gutting and redsign.
So i think it's a slight misrepresentation to say: "But given the inconsistent development history of Wish and its attempts to try different ideas". They were going one way, stumbled onto an idea that people who participated in it in Beta 1 absolutely fell in love with, and then ran with the ball after that. How is that inconsistent?
Originally posted by Zippy The result was a failure in combat and story.
Because they redesigned the world to be static, with AC like monthly arc quests, all while pushing it out the door when it needed much more time in testing.
Originally posted by Zippy December 1 for ob was announced awhile back but it still sounds very optomistic. Looking at the state of the game in screenshots and what information is released it does not look anywhere near ob unless they are holding back.
Not certain how you can determine it's beta 2.0 readiness by looking at SS's. I mean their beta 1 had less bugs than many games that are currently released. Although I wont point fingers, I'm sure we all know a few offenders. I mean I've yet to be able to figure out how to look at SS's and press releases how ready a game is or not for a paticular beta stage.
Originally posted by Zippy Despite my negaitive atttitude I have found often that games that I expect not to like I usually like.
That I actually agree with. I thought Wish wasnt very special, and was terribly unimpressed depite how smooth the game was for it's stage in beta 1.0. There wasn't much to do, it was the same old grind with no real focus or point. Then i stumbled onto the Live Story. And I was impressed and could see that those tools could be harnessed to entertain a lot more people if they did it right.
Wish is really between a rock and a hard place. Will they really be innovative enough to compete against the likes of EQ2, WOW? A for effort...yup....but many before them with more knowhow and deeper pockets have already pulled the plug on ambitious projects.
As a participant in the beta I was never able to become comfortable with the PnC movement. This is one thing that will hold this game down, too many people will not even try it once they find out that it is PnC movement. I suffered through the point n click movement in Shadowbane and always hated it. Sure you become somewhat used to it after awhile, but it never really seems natural. Improved pathfinding is a coined term to make you think it good..............well it ain't!
During the beta the beta boards were quite active with complaints/concerns about the PnC gamestyle. Mutable realms seems to be quite entrenched in there plans to keep this as the movement basis with no way to customize it for those who despise it. Some seem to like it. I feel the majority don't.
Wish and Dark n Light are two of the most interesting ( lesser ) projects in development. We need innovative thinkers to breath new life into the genere...........I wish them both the best of luck.
personally, I have a problem with an MMORPG based around socialization. I've played many MMORPG's, including Wish in 1.0 beta phase. I quit Star Wars Galaxy with in two weeks after buying it, because most of the activity and fun was sitting in the taverns watching entertainers and talking to people. I can socialize all I want on IRC, when I play a game I am expecting action, quests, and other challenges. The social interaction with people is not a high priority in my gaming experience. I want to go out, kill things, advance my character not only in skills, but through cool new gear that makes newer plays stare in awe.
The thing I did enjoy the most during Wish 1.0 beta was the live, large scale, quest and storyline interaction. There was quite a bit of character skill advancement, and enough socialization to make it seem as if there was no level grind at all. With prizes being distributed to the players involved in these nightly events. I expect during the retail, these large scale storyline events will happen fewer and farther between. Instead of every night, it would happen once a month. Which means that character advancement would need to be obtained through other means for the majority of the month.
This is only my opinion, and I do not bash anyone who wants what Wish has to offer.
Comments
The only difference was that most games that say they are story based have an immovable story. Nothing you do effects it. Week 1 this happens if you participate or not. Week 2 you get another patch and the next thing happens. Or maybe it's even on the most interactive ones like SWG, the most people who do one side of the quest effects the outcome at the end of the 3 month arc. (Not very interactive in my eyes). But nothing in between really changes the static content of the story.
Whereas with Wish, you can interact immediately and have an effect. The content is consumable....which HZ's was not. HZ had static content. You killing a million undead didnt trigger anything else. But in Wish, you killing one undead can possibly trigger something else.
Obviously, you must see to believe, but I strongly suggest you read our dev journals on Live Content. This should answer your concerns about how we intend to functionally make story the focus:
http://www.mutablerealms.com/devJournal.html
Dana Massey
Wish, World Designer
http://www.wishgame.com/
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Stories and events don't work in mmorpgs. They are in great in theory but in reality they just create lag and take away dev time from creating usable content. Maybe some type of instancing might be more effective. That being said it would be nice to see someone re-create a tabletop or even a single player feel as far as a story. Although, I will believe when I see it.
HZ had the same thing happen to them that happened oin WIsh a change in developemnt shifting the games focus from pvp to story. The result was a failure in combat and story.
What I do find intriguing about Wish is thier three tiered guild system and thier comments that towns can be owened by guilds thru non-conventional means. Rather than by combat, guilds can take towns thru some sort of fame system that would measure contribution to the town. I have not seen any specific ideas on how this would work. The rumors I have heard are questing and crafting.
December 1 for ob was announced awhile back but it still sounds very optomistic. Looking at the state of the game in screenshots and what information is released it does not look anywhere near ob unless they are holding back.
Despite my negaitive atttitude I have found often that games that I expect not to like I usually like. Most games are fun if you give them an oppurtunity. But given the inconsistent development history of Wish and its attempts to try different ideas makes me think its a longshot that they can get all they need to do in such a limited time while putting out a quality product. The problem with breaking the cookie cutter model is it takes a lot more time than just copyying old systems. The only game that appears to be on track to do somethging different may be Dark and Light. But even they have to be a big longshot. Mourning and Wish both appear to be very unfinished to expect a realease any time soon.
Wish is the first Ultra Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (UMMORPG). "Ultra" means that Wish supports more than 10,000 simultaneous players in a single, seamless world, without any zones or "shards".
I just read that on their site... isn't EVE a UMMORPG then?
What will he do next?
You Know Djin...i have to say your Right! Sounds like theres 2 games with 1 server?
We find out soon...looks around..
Tom
Ill be back
Ill be back
EVE, despite only having one server and 10k+, isnt seamless. You cant go from one end of EVE to the other without many many zoning screens.
That's not entirely accurate.
They dont work in static worlds. They just dont. Inserting Dynamic content in static worlds is just asking for trouble. If the world isnt built from the ground up dynamic, then it's a problem from the get go, like everyone storming into a static dungeon because they heard there was an event going on, etc. But if the world is built that all the content is dynamic, and there are events queued up and going on all over the place, then you have balance.
Again, slight skew of the facts.
HZ didnt even have a working engine when the blackout happened and they scrapped out their entire basis of race wars and turned it into a derivative game. In essence, they gutted almost every bit of their design to that point and went back to ground zero.
Wish was in Beta 1, it had a working engine, and a lot of the core systems and placeholders in place at the time when Lead Designer Dave Rickey left and they decided to refocus on dynamic content instead of HvH....but the thing everyone keeps overlooking is that even though they got rid of HvH, the PvP in Wish was always planned on being consensual, even the HvH. So this was a major change, but not to the level of what HZ did which was basically a complete and utter gutting and redsign.
So i think it's a slight misrepresentation to say: "But given the inconsistent development history of Wish and its attempts to try different ideas". They were going one way, stumbled onto an idea that people who participated in it in Beta 1 absolutely fell in love with, and then ran with the ball after that. How is that inconsistent?
Because they redesigned the world to be static, with AC like monthly arc quests, all while pushing it out the door when it needed much more time in testing.
Not certain how you can determine it's beta 2.0 readiness by looking at SS's. I mean their beta 1 had less bugs than many games that are currently released. Although I wont point fingers, I'm sure we all know a few offenders. I mean I've yet to be able to figure out how to look at SS's and press releases how ready a game is or not for a paticular beta stage.
That I actually agree with. I thought Wish wasnt very special, and was terribly unimpressed depite how smooth the game was for it's stage in beta 1.0. There wasn't much to do, it was the same old grind with no real focus or point. Then i stumbled onto the Live Story. And I was impressed and could see that those tools could be harnessed to entertain a lot more people if they did it right.
Wish Vault
Wish Vault FAQ
Wish Vault Forums
Wish is really between a rock and a hard place. Will they really be innovative enough to compete against the likes of EQ2, WOW? A for effort...yup....but many before them with more knowhow and deeper pockets have already pulled the plug on ambitious projects.
As a participant in the beta I was never able to become comfortable with the PnC movement. This is one thing that will hold this game down, too many people will not even try it once they find out that it is PnC movement. I suffered through the point n click movement in Shadowbane and always hated it. Sure you become somewhat used to it after awhile, but it never really seems natural. Improved pathfinding is a coined term to make you think it good..............well it ain't!
During the beta the beta boards were quite active with complaints/concerns about the PnC gamestyle. Mutable realms seems to be quite entrenched in there plans to keep this as the movement basis with no way to customize it for those who despise it. Some seem to like it. I feel the majority don't.
Wish and Dark n Light are two of the most interesting ( lesser ) projects in development. We need innovative thinkers to breath new life into the genere...........I wish them both the best of luck.
personally, I have a problem with an MMORPG based around socialization. I've played many MMORPG's, including Wish in 1.0 beta phase. I quit Star Wars Galaxy with in two weeks after buying it, because most of the activity and fun was sitting in the taverns watching entertainers and talking to people. I can socialize all I want on IRC, when I play a game I am expecting action, quests, and other challenges. The social interaction with people is not a high priority in my gaming experience. I want to go out, kill things, advance my character not only in skills, but through cool new gear that makes newer plays stare in awe.
The thing I did enjoy the most during Wish 1.0 beta was the live, large scale, quest and storyline interaction. There was quite a bit of character skill advancement, and enough socialization to make it seem as if there was no level grind at all. With prizes being distributed to the players involved in these nightly events. I expect during the retail, these large scale storyline events will happen fewer and farther between. Instead of every night, it would happen once a month. Which means that character advancement would need to be obtained through other means for the majority of the month.
This is only my opinion, and I do not bash anyone who wants what Wish has to offer.
-----------------------------------------
Xaven - Lvl 60 Orc Hunter
Discordia guild - Archimonde
http://www.discordia-guild.org
so many names can apply to both genders now days.
definately loving the flat power curve. i got tired of daoc after they decided to add more tredmills just so you could stay competative.
Cindy