MMOs, they aren't just for unemployed shut-ins and rabid sociopaths anymore. Get over it.
Don't like instanced dungeons? Don't go inside them. How hard is that?
Don't like sharing your little virtual world with carebears and casuals? Good. Instancing takes them out of 'your' game, while allowing their subscription fees to continue funding your nerd paradise.
Want every MMO to be just like Lineage II, Darkfall, or EVE Online? Hey I've got a better idea: stick to playing Lineage II, Darkfall, or EVE Online. Problem solved.
Don't like WoW? Don't play WoW. Duh.
I repeat, MMOs aren't just for shut-ins and sociopaths anymore. They're now for casuals and carebears too. Don't like it? Tough.
Look at all these people, they are all playing too!
I want to go outside of town and see what they are all doing there!
There isnt anyone outside of town.. Now I'm the only player here. But hey! I just got a nice sword out here. Check it out my sword, check it.. oh yea. Ill go back to town and show everyone my sword!
Hey HEY check it out my new sword! I got it in the same area outside of the city! The same area you all got yours but I didnt see you there.
Guild wars has taken instancing all the way to the city gates. Now there is the only place you can see other players. Want PVP? You guessed it, go into another instance.
WOW look at this I'm fighting another player, hah I took that guy there out! Oh crap here comes a big mean guy with.. run. RUUNNNNN AHHHH AHHH..... Wait. There isnt.. this area is just a tiny little area... WTF *hack* ... Im back in town now hrm.. where was that place? Ill go outside of town and try to find it.........................
Sure WoW doesnt go that far but still, SURELY there can be enough room for everyone in a virtual world. Oh NOES!! ONE UV AUR CUZTUMARS GOT PEEKAY KEELED DOOING A KWEST AN CANCAL HIS ACCUONT WE NEAD TEH MONAY WE MAYKE TEH BABEE HAPPIE
Wow I'm in an MMO! Look at all these people, they are all playing too! I want to go outside of town and see what they are all doing there! There isnt anyone outside of town.. Now I'm the only player here. But hey! I just got a nice sword out here. Check it out my sword, check it.. oh yea. Ill go back to town and show everyone my sword! Hey HEY check it out my new sword! I got it in the same area outside of the city! The same area you all got yours but I didnt see you there. Guild wars has taken instancing all the way to the city gates. Now there is the only place you can see other players. Want PVP? You guessed it, go into another instance. WOW look at this I'm fighting another player, hah I took that guy there out! Oh crap here comes a big mean guy with.. run. RUUNNNNN AHHHH AHHH..... Wait. There isnt.. this area is just a tiny little area... WTF *hack* ... Im back in town now hrm.. where was that place? Ill go outside of town and try to find it......................... Sure WoW doesnt go that far but still, SURELY there can be enough room for everyone in a virtual world. Oh NOES!! ONE UV AUR CUZTUMARS GOT PEEKAY KEELED DOOING A KWEST AN CANCAL HIS ACCUONT WE NEAD TEH MONAY WE MAYKE TEH BABEE HAPPIE
Seriously how is one really to respond to this?
You inadvertantly make an argument for instances in this gem of a response. And I LIKE games like Lineage 2.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you want a small instance where just you and your friends can play, why not play NWN2 or wait for Diablo2?
The first M in MMO stands for "Massive" fyi...
Then I suppose you're against private messages, /ignore commands and guild chat too, right? Because those are exclusive also, and limit "massively multiplayer" interaction.
If you want a small instance where just you and your friends can play, why not play NWN2 or wait for Diablo2?
The first M in MMO stands for "Massive" fyi...
And you can't possibly imagine that there are numerous ways to partake in the big "M"? Or is there just one way that you can imagine. I bet I can think of several.
Look harder and you will see more depth there to that big "M" then you can imagine.
So "sorry" there's more than one way to be social in an MMO.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you want a small instance where just you and your friends can play, why not play NWN2 or wait for Diablo2?
The first M in MMO stands for "Massive" fyi...
See the G in MMO? It stands for Ganking.
Yeah, me either.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
Nothing is wrong with them. The pros highly outweigh the cons and any former EQ player should know that. You can't make a persistent boss encounter without forcing players to wait in line. If you're waiting in line to play a videogame you simply have no life or just don't value your time at all, plain and simple. Thats why it was accepted back with EQ. Most people playing didn't have lives, so waiting in line for hours camping was no big deal. MMOs aren't designed for nerds with no life anymore so the game mechanics have to cater to the players. Yes its a hard concept to grasp for some elitists here. But as most MMO developers have already admitted, the hardcore simply don't matter anymore and that BURNS THEM UP. So they come here and complain to those who also don't give a damn about them anymore. Its a hard thing to accept that you're not at the top of the food chain.
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
Not gonna bother reading the whole thread, so it maybe has already been said, but for me, instanced dungeons take away a part of the community feeling, you go and hide in your little room where nobody bothers you, instead of interacting with the community as a whole.
Instanced dungeons also play against open world pvp, if you can hide, then there will be no drama nor politics, I can't see weak guilds dissolving if everyone is on their little room.
The part where they tack on a completely different genre of game (multiplayer adventure) to the MMORPG style. Why, you say? Because it causes significant amounts of player confusion (not being able to know who is where and why), diverts development teams from focusing on the real game, and it introduces exploits for metagaming (being able to flag your character as non-attackable, hopping instances, etc.) Oh yeah, and instancing dilutes storylines by making them generic, instead of player-based.
There is no reason for players who want to do things in small, social game teams to be using an MMO to play a typical multiplayer adventure game. There are hundreds of regular multiplayer adventure games available.
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
Not gonna bother reading the whole thread, so it maybe has already been said, but for me, instanced dungeons take away a part of the community feeling, you go and hide in your little room where nobody bothers you, instead of interacting with the community as a whole.
Instanced dungeons also play against open world pvp, if you can hide, then there will be no drama nor politics, I can't see weak guilds dissolving if everyone is on their little room.
Ok but that's only in games that have open world pvp. Which aren't a lot.
And once again (draws in deep breath) there are more ways to interact with community than meeting them in a dungeon or partying with them.
Sorry but unless you want to dilute your story line, instanced dungeons are the only way to go. If it is a pvp game then of course you don't want instanced dungeons but then the game will be about something else.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The only reason people like non-instanced PVP is becaues they never met me in the game....
If you constantly get killed by others who just happened to start that single day before you, just happens to be part of that bigger, but really stupid guild. Your life in the pvp game is over. Thats why 70% of all MMO playres prefer PVE.
On the other hand, the 30% who loves PVP, can find the challenge, the anxiety, the good feeling of revenge, once they get their character in shape, thats why people love pvp as well.
The competition on the epic monster, why does that exist? Because so far all worlds have been static. The epic monsters, you know where they are, what they can do, you can plan for it. The day the new generation of MMO's start to come out, you will not be able to forsee the battel with X the Cruel and his siblings, you will be surprised, possibly outnumbered, possibly a real hero.
Think the problem with instancing dungeons from what I have read is that of competing views of how far mmo’s can go with so called “immersion.” The pros and cons think can be summoned up in two general camps. Instanced dungeons stops the free forum player from affecting or interacting with the mmo world he or she is playing in. Other wise not wanting to have to wait around to find a group to go kill a boss. Wanting events to unfold in real time in front of others. In pvp worlds players want the ability to ambush or interfere with other players. Full ability to interact with others is one the main benefits to this view. Open dungeons also give rise to unconventional things happening as far a strategy or game play. Each experience may differ when other players are involved.
The other camp is wanting to be able to limit the affects other players have on their game play by limiting player interaction to a few. The pros are simple not waiting around for a billion others to kill the same boss. The ability to have access to a boss and loot at the time of his or her choosing with a small group. This however does not mean you are soloing. Dungeon sizes could range from anything from 5-25 or more. Players have control over their game play. People who don’t have time to wait for 500 other people to kill a boss before they can. Or have their kill stolen. Different level of immersion is added to the fact story line can be followed more. It may kill the open world feeling but does offer a different form of immersion. What story did any one ever here of going to fight some big dragon and have to pick a number to kill it. Or have 100 hundred people all chatting in the same dungeon while the group ahead is killing a mob of orcs or trolls. This can kill immersion too.
For those immersion fanatics there is something else to think about. The whole idea that there is a spawn rate in an mmo. That a monster is only going to come back to life. Think about it. Your all killing the same boss whether it is instant or not a billion times. If you want true immersion if you kill a boss it should never respawn. Just think about it. Sitting around one of the inns hearing someone say “Oh I killed the evil troll boss last night.” Then person, who was in the same crowded dungeon, next to him goes “Oh yea I saw you. 10 minutes later I killed him too.” Doesn't that kill immersion. There are limits to immersion.
The real debate is over the amount of player interaction with the world and those around them and not this often over used term immersion.
Call them care bearish or not. Instant dungeons provide over all better game play for the vast majority of players. This is why almost all mmo games do some instancing. The other aspect of a massive online game is that the masses are satisfied. If they are not then maybe dungeons won't have to be an instance for not as many people will be going into them. Instancing might break so called “immersion” but some flexibility in games have to be made. But my feelings world dungeons, with the amount of people who now play mmos, would be barren of mobs and full of camping groups waiting for something to spawn or gank. It is a matter of preference of immersion and style. In some respect open dungeons might be fun, but I really don’t see instancing dungeons going away.
In every game I played that had open dungeons, it was a disaster. I never want to play a game where I have to stand in line to kill something! I've seen it in so many games. Yes, in some games, there were literally lines formed to kill certain mobs. You would wait for the toon infront of you to kill it, then it would be the next person in lines turn. Then there was the occasional ninja who would run up there and jack a kill before the person in line got it. Talk about getting flamed. lol Instance dungeons actually improve immersion for me. Then you are more focused on the task, rather than how many players are standing around where you are at. Sure it might kills someones dream of ruling a dungeon, but mmorpgs aren't about individual players being God, its about everyone getting their fair slice of the action. So why let gank fests hog all the action? Not everyone in the world has the same play style, so don't assume the entire game revolves around your toon. I like instances, as long as they aren't don in excess. I mean you shouldn't have to run into an instance for every quest. Thats just rediculous...
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Sorry but unless you want to dilute your story line, instanced dungeons are the only way to go. If it is a pvp game then of course you don't want instanced dungeons but then the game will be about something else.
And here's the crux of the problem. MMO players brought up on EQ/WOW-style games who think that developers are supposed to create the storyline instead of creating it themselves.
it really comes down to the themepark or sandbox model, again.
Themepark games have fairly shallow world/game mechanics and are primarily about pacing players through the same storyline, and the same content through heavy use of quests and instances. Gear is the primary driver of player character improvement and motivation. WOW/EQ/DAOC are examples of themepark games.
Sandbox games have deep and complex world/game mechanics, but relatively little scripted/predetermined content like quests and instances, ie: the majority of the games content comes from the players themselves making use of game mechanics to fill the world with content, and/or from world mechanics such as the periodic creation/evolution of boss NPCs in the world such as in Darkfall. Most sandbox games will have no private instances at all - players are expected to compete for PVE riches. UO/EVE/Darkfall are examples of sandbox games, though you could consider the RVR component of DAOC to be a sandbox game mechanic.
The major detraction of themepark games is of course, that there is limited content, and players end up experiencing the exact same storyline and re-playing the same content over and over and over. The problem with sandbox games is that there is typically little to no 'spoonfed' content, so some players struggle to work out what they want to do, and with WOW's huge success, there are very few game development companies making sandbox games, preferring instead to attempt to copy WOW.
This wasn't intended to be a bash-WOW post but it is responsible to a large extent for the fairly sad state of the MMO genre at the current time, with numerous themepark MMOs coming out with almost no innovation or differentiation from each other.
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
I'm almost shure that things that are good for you are bad for me. I do not know any reason I like about instancing. Here are my reason why I do not like them:
1. No interaction between different parties.
2. You cannot help other parties.
3. You cannot compete other parties.
4. You cannot hinder/fight other parties
5. They are not Massive but just Multiplay, just consequence from points 1-4.
6. Not directly tied with instancing, but becasue their nature and purpose there is almost no respown. So there is just one goal: to clear entire intance. In non instanced dungeons typically there is no such term. You just clear different bosses/part of the dungeon as long as you wish.
I know most peoples do not like massive features online games, but just wonder why so many games name are classified as MMO if they are just "multiplayer online", but there is almost no massive gameplay in them. Instancing is one of the main aspect of this game that ruin the massive gameplay and make it mutiplay.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
If you want a small instance where just you and your friends can play, why not play NWN2 or wait for Diablo2?
The first M in MMO stands for "Massive" fyi...
And you can't possibly imagine that there are numerous ways to partake in the big "M"? Or is there just one way that you can imagine. I bet I can think of several.
Look harder and you will see more depth there to that big "M" then you can imagine.
So "sorry" there's more than one way to be social in an MMO.
If you like instanced MMOs, good for you. But don't complain when they turn into gear-based grindfests.
When they remove the aspects of true competition between players, the only way to keep people paying the sub is through adding more time-sinks. I prefer freedom and choice over instances and gear, so I guess that is why "end-game" in WoW and they like don't appeal to me.
If you want a small instance where just you and your friends can play, why not play NWN2 or wait for Diablo2?
The first M in MMO stands for "Massive" fyi...
And you can't possibly imagine that there are numerous ways to partake in the big "M"? Or is there just one way that you can imagine. I bet I can think of several.
Look harder and you will see more depth there to that big "M" then you can imagine.
So "sorry" there's more than one way to be social in an MMO.
If you like instanced MMOs, good for you. But don't complain when they turn into gear-based grindfests.
When they remove the aspects of true competition between players, the only way to keep people paying the sub is through adding more time-sinks. I prefer freedom and choice over instances and gear, so I guess that is why "end-game" in WoW and they like don't appeal to me.
Ok, but that's not even remotely true. One of the singlemost instanced games out there is Guild Wars and it's not Gear based at all. DDO is also mostly instanced and though there is "good gear" it doesn't really overpower anything.
You are essentially saying that because WoW does it this way that all games obviously have to follow suit.
And quite frankly the search for greater gear is the gamers' own curse in WoW as all the people I know who play it just have fun and take it for what it is.
Also, you don't keep players playing because of competition. this is just because you look at gaming through this lens.
You keep gamer playing by giving them interesting and engaging content based upon the initial thrust of the game. So, if the game is about competition and pvp then you keep that fresh and give players additional reasons to compete (which now that I write that seems to me to be a way to make a gear based game no? So competition really doesn't have anything to do with keeping gear grind out of it)
If the game is about story line then you give the players new areas to explore and new storylines to follow.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't like instances in the outside world, but I don't see what is the big deal with dungeons. As I said EQ was fun, but there are to many jerks running around trying to ruin other players experience in the game and there aren't enough mobs to go around for everyone in open dungeons. These games are Massively Multiplayer, but that doesn't mean you have to raid or PvP with everyone in the world. You can choose to do your own thing like in real life or adventure with a small group of people ilke in real life. Real life is the ultimate MMO, but most of the time peope don't do things together. They do them solo or in small groups. It's rare that you will see a raid in real life.
I don't like instances in the outside world, but I don't see what is the big deal with dungeons. As I said EQ was fun, but there are to many jerks running around trying to ruin other players experience in the game and there aren't enough mobs to go around for everyone in open dungeons. These games are Massively Multiplayer, but that doesn't mean you have to raid or PvP with everyone in the world. You can choose to do your own thing like in real life or adventure with a small group of people ilke in real life. Real life is the ultimate MMO, but most of the time peope don't do things together. They do them solo or in small groups. It's rare that you will see a raid in real life.
Good Post!
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I wouldn't consider Guild Wars an MMO. For any of the actual gameplay you're limited to a small group, just as with any singleplayer game with multiplayer support.
It just seems contridictory that most MMOs do not exploit the strengths of having a massive amount of players and instead split them up into shards and split them even further into instances. I think the only thing most current MMOs offer over nonmmo RPGs is that it's easier to find a group. Otherwise, same damn game.
It seems javac is right. It pretty much comes down sandbox vs. themepark.
I don't like instances in the outside world, but I don't see what is the big deal with dungeons. As I said EQ was fun, but there are to many jerks running around trying to ruin other players experience in the game and there aren't enough mobs to go around for everyone in open dungeons. These games are Massively Multiplayer, but that doesn't mean you have to raid or PvP with everyone in the world. You can choose to do your own thing like in real life or adventure with a small group of people ilke in real life. Real life is the ultimate MMO, but most of the time peope don't do things together. They do them solo or in small groups. It's rare that you will see a raid in real life.
Except that most of the time to do anything of significance it does take a large amount of people. Any war was more than a small band of heroes. I'm also fairly certain most large corporations employ more than five people. In fact, it's rare to see something accomplished by a single person, but that's why they're regarded as heroes when they do manage such a feat.
Now if you're meaning to say that people generally drive to work solo, well, yes. But that's quite a bit less of an achievement than vanqushing evil where er' it be (conveniently located and generally completable with a five man group in less than an hour).
I don't like instances in the outside world, but I don't see what is the big deal with dungeons. As I said EQ was fun, but there are to many jerks running around trying to ruin other players experience in the game and there aren't enough mobs to go around for everyone in open dungeons. These games are Massively Multiplayer, but that doesn't mean you have to raid or PvP with everyone in the world. You can choose to do your own thing like in real life or adventure with a small group of people ilke in real life. Real life is the ultimate MMO, but most of the time peope don't do things together. They do them solo or in small groups. It's rare that you will see a raid in real life.
Except that most of the time to do anything of significance it does take a large amount of people. Any war was more than a small band of heroes. I'm also fairly certain most large corporations employ more than five people. In fact, it's rare to see something accomplished by a single person, but that's why they're regarded as heroes when they do manage such a feat.
Now if you're meaning to say that people generally drive to work solo, well, yes. But that's quite a bit less of an achievement than vanqushing evil where er' it be (conveniently located and generally completable with a five man group in less than an hour).
True though in fantasy books (which these games are based on) it's quite common for one person or a small group of people to go out adventuring to defeat evil. Also driving as you put it can be comparable to most of the average everday tasks in a fantasy world so I'm not sure whats wrong with solo or small groups accomplishing these tasks.
Comments
MMOs, they aren't just for unemployed shut-ins and rabid sociopaths anymore. Get over it.
Don't like instanced dungeons? Don't go inside them. How hard is that?
Don't like sharing your little virtual world with carebears and casuals? Good. Instancing takes them out of 'your' game, while allowing their subscription fees to continue funding your nerd paradise.
Want every MMO to be just like Lineage II, Darkfall, or EVE Online? Hey I've got a better idea: stick to playing Lineage II, Darkfall, or EVE Online. Problem solved.
Don't like WoW? Don't play WoW. Duh.
I repeat, MMOs aren't just for shut-ins and sociopaths anymore. They're now for casuals and carebears too. Don't like it? Tough.
Wow I'm in an MMO!
Look at all these people, they are all playing too!
I want to go outside of town and see what they are all doing there!
There isnt anyone outside of town.. Now I'm the only player here. But hey! I just got a nice sword out here. Check it out my sword, check it.. oh yea. Ill go back to town and show everyone my sword!
Hey HEY check it out my new sword! I got it in the same area outside of the city! The same area you all got yours but I didnt see you there.
Guild wars has taken instancing all the way to the city gates. Now there is the only place you can see other players. Want PVP? You guessed it, go into another instance.
WOW look at this I'm fighting another player, hah I took that guy there out! Oh crap here comes a big mean guy with.. run. RUUNNNNN AHHHH AHHH..... Wait. There isnt.. this area is just a tiny little area... WTF *hack* ... Im back in town now hrm.. where was that place? Ill go outside of town and try to find it.........................
Sure WoW doesnt go that far but still, SURELY there can be enough room for everyone in a virtual world. Oh NOES!! ONE UV AUR CUZTUMARS GOT PEEKAY KEELED DOOING A KWEST AN CANCAL HIS ACCUONT WE NEAD TEH MONAY WE MAYKE TEH BABEE HAPPIE
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Seriously how is one really to respond to this?
You inadvertantly make an argument for instances in this gem of a response. And I LIKE games like Lineage 2.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you want a small instance where just you and your friends can play, why not play NWN2 or wait for Diablo2?
The first M in MMO stands for "Massive" fyi...
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
Then I suppose you're against private messages, /ignore commands and guild chat too, right? Because those are exclusive also, and limit "massively multiplayer" interaction.
And you can't possibly imagine that there are numerous ways to partake in the big "M"? Or is there just one way that you can imagine. I bet I can think of several.
Look harder and you will see more depth there to that big "M" then you can imagine.
So "sorry" there's more than one way to be social in an MMO.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
See the G in MMO? It stands for Ganking.
Yeah, me either.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
QFT
Want a taste of religion? Lick a witch.
Not gonna bother reading the whole thread, so it maybe has already been said, but for me, instanced dungeons take away a part of the community feeling, you go and hide in your little room where nobody bothers you, instead of interacting with the community as a whole.
Instanced dungeons also play against open world pvp, if you can hide, then there will be no drama nor politics, I can't see weak guilds dissolving if everyone is on their little room.
What's wrong with instanced dungeons?
The part where they tack on a completely different genre of game (multiplayer adventure) to the MMORPG style. Why, you say? Because it causes significant amounts of player confusion (not being able to know who is where and why), diverts development teams from focusing on the real game, and it introduces exploits for metagaming (being able to flag your character as non-attackable, hopping instances, etc.) Oh yeah, and instancing dilutes storylines by making them generic, instead of player-based.
There is no reason for players who want to do things in small, social game teams to be using an MMO to play a typical multiplayer adventure game. There are hundreds of regular multiplayer adventure games available.
There aren't that many real MMORPGs.
Not gonna bother reading the whole thread, so it maybe has already been said, but for me, instanced dungeons take away a part of the community feeling, you go and hide in your little room where nobody bothers you, instead of interacting with the community as a whole.
Instanced dungeons also play against open world pvp, if you can hide, then there will be no drama nor politics, I can't see weak guilds dissolving if everyone is on their little room.
Ok but that's only in games that have open world pvp. Which aren't a lot.
And once again (draws in deep breath) there are more ways to interact with community than meeting them in a dungeon or partying with them.
Sorry but unless you want to dilute your story line, instanced dungeons are the only way to go. If it is a pvp game then of course you don't want instanced dungeons but then the game will be about something else.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The only reason people like non-instanced PVP is becaues they never met me in the game....
If you constantly get killed by others who just happened to start that single day before you, just happens to be part of that bigger, but really stupid guild. Your life in the pvp game is over. Thats why 70% of all MMO playres prefer PVE.
On the other hand, the 30% who loves PVP, can find the challenge, the anxiety, the good feeling of revenge, once they get their character in shape, thats why people love pvp as well.
The competition on the epic monster, why does that exist? Because so far all worlds have been static. The epic monsters, you know where they are, what they can do, you can plan for it. The day the new generation of MMO's start to come out, you will not be able to forsee the battel with X the Cruel and his siblings, you will be surprised, possibly outnumbered, possibly a real hero.
Think the problem with instancing dungeons from what I have read is that of competing views of how far mmo’s can go with so called “immersion.” The pros and cons think can be summoned up in two general camps. Instanced dungeons stops the free forum player from affecting or interacting with the mmo world he or she is playing in. Other wise not wanting to have to wait around to find a group to go kill a boss. Wanting events to unfold in real time in front of others. In pvp worlds players want the ability to ambush or interfere with other players. Full ability to interact with others is one the main benefits to this view. Open dungeons also give rise to unconventional things happening as far a strategy or game play. Each experience may differ when other players are involved.
The other camp is wanting to be able to limit the affects other players have on their game play by limiting player interaction to a few. The pros are simple not waiting around for a billion others to kill the same boss. The ability to have access to a boss and loot at the time of his or her choosing with a small group. This however does not mean you are soloing. Dungeon sizes could range from anything from 5-25 or more. Players have control over their game play. People who don’t have time to wait for 500 other people to kill a boss before they can. Or have their kill stolen. Different level of immersion is added to the fact story line can be followed more. It may kill the open world feeling but does offer a different form of immersion. What story did any one ever here of going to fight some big dragon and have to pick a number to kill it. Or have 100 hundred people all chatting in the same dungeon while the group ahead is killing a mob of orcs or trolls. This can kill immersion too.
For those immersion fanatics there is something else to think about. The whole idea that there is a spawn rate in an mmo. That a monster is only going to come back to life. Think about it. Your all killing the same boss whether it is instant or not a billion times. If you want true immersion if you kill a boss it should never respawn. Just think about it. Sitting around one of the inns hearing someone say “Oh I killed the evil troll boss last night.” Then person, who was in the same crowded dungeon, next to him goes “Oh yea I saw you. 10 minutes later I killed him too.” Doesn't that kill immersion. There are limits to immersion.
The real debate is over the amount of player interaction with the world and those around them and not this often over used term immersion.
Call them care bearish or not. Instant dungeons provide over all better game play for the vast majority of players. This is why almost all mmo games do some instancing. The other aspect of a massive online game is that the masses are satisfied. If they are not then maybe dungeons won't have to be an instance for not as many people will be going into them. Instancing might break so called “immersion” but some flexibility in games have to be made. But my feelings world dungeons, with the amount of people who now play mmos, would be barren of mobs and full of camping groups waiting for something to spawn or gank. It is a matter of preference of immersion and style. In some respect open dungeons might be fun, but I really don’t see instancing dungeons going away.
In every game I played that had open dungeons, it was a disaster. I never want to play a game where I have to stand in line to kill something! I've seen it in so many games. Yes, in some games, there were literally lines formed to kill certain mobs. You would wait for the toon infront of you to kill it, then it would be the next person in lines turn. Then there was the occasional ninja who would run up there and jack a kill before the person in line got it. Talk about getting flamed. lol Instance dungeons actually improve immersion for me. Then you are more focused on the task, rather than how many players are standing around where you are at. Sure it might kills someones dream of ruling a dungeon, but mmorpgs aren't about individual players being God, its about everyone getting their fair slice of the action. So why let gank fests hog all the action? Not everyone in the world has the same play style, so don't assume the entire game revolves around your toon. I like instances, as long as they aren't don in excess. I mean you shouldn't have to run into an instance for every quest. Thats just rediculous...
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
And here's the crux of the problem. MMO players brought up on EQ/WOW-style games who think that developers are supposed to create the storyline instead of creating it themselves.
it really comes down to the themepark or sandbox model, again.
Themepark games have fairly shallow world/game mechanics and are primarily about pacing players through the same storyline, and the same content through heavy use of quests and instances. Gear is the primary driver of player character improvement and motivation. WOW/EQ/DAOC are examples of themepark games.
Sandbox games have deep and complex world/game mechanics, but relatively little scripted/predetermined content like quests and instances, ie: the majority of the games content comes from the players themselves making use of game mechanics to fill the world with content, and/or from world mechanics such as the periodic creation/evolution of boss NPCs in the world such as in Darkfall. Most sandbox games will have no private instances at all - players are expected to compete for PVE riches. UO/EVE/Darkfall are examples of sandbox games, though you could consider the RVR component of DAOC to be a sandbox game mechanic.
The major detraction of themepark games is of course, that there is limited content, and players end up experiencing the exact same storyline and re-playing the same content over and over and over. The problem with sandbox games is that there is typically little to no 'spoonfed' content, so some players struggle to work out what they want to do, and with WOW's huge success, there are very few game development companies making sandbox games, preferring instead to attempt to copy WOW.
This wasn't intended to be a bash-WOW post but it is responsible to a large extent for the fairly sad state of the MMO genre at the current time, with numerous themepark MMOs coming out with almost no innovation or differentiation from each other.
I'm almost shure that things that are good for you are bad for me. I do not know any reason I like about instancing. Here are my reason why I do not like them:
1. No interaction between different parties.
2. You cannot help other parties.
3. You cannot compete other parties.
4. You cannot hinder/fight other parties
5. They are not Massive but just Multiplay, just consequence from points 1-4.
6. Not directly tied with instancing, but becasue their nature and purpose there is almost no respown. So there is just one goal: to clear entire intance. In non instanced dungeons typically there is no such term. You just clear different bosses/part of the dungeon as long as you wish.
I know most peoples do not like massive features online games, but just wonder why so many games name are classified as MMO if they are just "multiplayer online", but there is almost no massive gameplay in them. Instancing is one of the main aspect of this game that ruin the massive gameplay and make it mutiplay.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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LordOfDarkDesire
And you can't possibly imagine that there are numerous ways to partake in the big "M"? Or is there just one way that you can imagine. I bet I can think of several.
Look harder and you will see more depth there to that big "M" then you can imagine.
So "sorry" there's more than one way to be social in an MMO.
If you like instanced MMOs, good for you. But don't complain when they turn into gear-based grindfests.
When they remove the aspects of true competition between players, the only way to keep people paying the sub is through adding more time-sinks. I prefer freedom and choice over instances and gear, so I guess that is why "end-game" in WoW and they like don't appeal to me.
(Uzik ibnYaraq in game. Always willing to help.)
http://www.youtube.com/user/UzikAlJhamin
And you can't possibly imagine that there are numerous ways to partake in the big "M"? Or is there just one way that you can imagine. I bet I can think of several.
Look harder and you will see more depth there to that big "M" then you can imagine.
So "sorry" there's more than one way to be social in an MMO.
If you like instanced MMOs, good for you. But don't complain when they turn into gear-based grindfests.
When they remove the aspects of true competition between players, the only way to keep people paying the sub is through adding more time-sinks. I prefer freedom and choice over instances and gear, so I guess that is why "end-game" in WoW and they like don't appeal to me.
Ok, but that's not even remotely true. One of the singlemost instanced games out there is Guild Wars and it's not Gear based at all. DDO is also mostly instanced and though there is "good gear" it doesn't really overpower anything.
You are essentially saying that because WoW does it this way that all games obviously have to follow suit.
And quite frankly the search for greater gear is the gamers' own curse in WoW as all the people I know who play it just have fun and take it for what it is.
Also, you don't keep players playing because of competition. this is just because you look at gaming through this lens.
You keep gamer playing by giving them interesting and engaging content based upon the initial thrust of the game. So, if the game is about competition and pvp then you keep that fresh and give players additional reasons to compete (which now that I write that seems to me to be a way to make a gear based game no? So competition really doesn't have anything to do with keeping gear grind out of it)
If the game is about story line then you give the players new areas to explore and new storylines to follow.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't like instances in the outside world, but I don't see what is the big deal with dungeons. As I said EQ was fun, but there are to many jerks running around trying to ruin other players experience in the game and there aren't enough mobs to go around for everyone in open dungeons. These games are Massively Multiplayer, but that doesn't mean you have to raid or PvP with everyone in the world. You can choose to do your own thing like in real life or adventure with a small group of people ilke in real life. Real life is the ultimate MMO, but most of the time peope don't do things together. They do them solo or in small groups. It's rare that you will see a raid in real life.
Good Post!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I wouldn't consider Guild Wars an MMO. For any of the actual gameplay you're limited to a small group, just as with any singleplayer game with multiplayer support.
It just seems contridictory that most MMOs do not exploit the strengths of having a massive amount of players and instead split them up into shards and split them even further into instances. I think the only thing most current MMOs offer over nonmmo RPGs is that it's easier to find a group. Otherwise, same damn game.
It seems javac is right. It pretty much comes down sandbox vs. themepark.
Except that most of the time to do anything of significance it does take a large amount of people. Any war was more than a small band of heroes. I'm also fairly certain most large corporations employ more than five people. In fact, it's rare to see something accomplished by a single person, but that's why they're regarded as heroes when they do manage such a feat.
Now if you're meaning to say that people generally drive to work solo, well, yes. But that's quite a bit less of an achievement than vanqushing evil where er' it be (conveniently located and generally completable with a five man group in less than an hour).
Nothing is wrong with instancing, people that say loading screens kill immersion are simply trying hard to find a flaw in a particular game.
It's sad really.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Except that most of the time to do anything of significance it does take a large amount of people. Any war was more than a small band of heroes. I'm also fairly certain most large corporations employ more than five people. In fact, it's rare to see something accomplished by a single person, but that's why they're regarded as heroes when they do manage such a feat.
Now if you're meaning to say that people generally drive to work solo, well, yes. But that's quite a bit less of an achievement than vanqushing evil where er' it be (conveniently located and generally completable with a five man group in less than an hour).
True though in fantasy books (which these games are based on) it's quite common for one person or a small group of people to go out adventuring to defeat evil. Also driving as you put it can be comparable to most of the average everday tasks in a fantasy world so I'm not sure whats wrong with solo or small groups accomplishing these tasks.
For anyone who doesn't know DDO already, this is the opposite of the truth. DDO is nothing but a grindfest for extremely overpowered gear.