WoW was developed for an expected audience of 250K.
I don't think that's currently a big enough audience however to attract any further investment.
Eve has only ever had the one retail release. It's economy may have had an article written about it in Forbes magasine, but it's developers and publishers never will.
I play EVE and I love it. EVE is a PVP game that is hard. PVP has penalties which range from being blown up by NPC police to being killed by others and death has serious concequences. EVE is also skill based not level based. I have seen new players get into the cheapest of ships with useless equipment and totally pwn wealthy and much higher 'level' players. EVE is boring because there's strategy involved. When you are in a group with 700 others listening to orders are very important and the conquest and destruction of another entities fleet and base of operations is very rewarding.
EVE is the only game I have seen with a real economy. The developers define what can be found where and what can be turned into what but the players are the ones who make them, find them, gather them, create them and then destroy them keeping the economy going eternally. Then when an item is created it is put up on the market where real competition takes place and where people can make uncountable amounts of money and can lose it all too.
Then there're the professions in EVE. EVE is not a 'oh-look-i-killed-a-bear-i-am-going-to-skin-it-for-nothing' because the professions in EVE have the potential to really pay off. If all the miners in EVE stopped mining or quit the game the game for a week the game would grind to a standstill and die simply because they are the foundation of the game. What would happen if the miners in WoW stopped mining for a week? Crafting is meaningless in WOW and one can play WOW without ever crafting anything or buying anything from the AH. That is IMPOSSIBLE in EVE.
I have mentioned PVP already but I will mention it again. The PVP in EVE can be tedious. It is boring, it is hard and it is tiring. The stress one experiences in EVE is immense. You work for six months for that one thing you want, then lose it the first day you buy it. It creates hatred, anger, rage, frustration and it causes people to enact revenge on those who have wronged them and that's what keeps EVE going. Not everyone likes being in a group with 500 others and sit somewhere and do nothing for four hours, some fly around space and kill people indiscriminately and piracy is rife. Then there's stealing from others. You see someone doing a mission (quest) or mining you can steal their items to get them to attack you. I have done this many times and it is great fun, whether I win or lose.
EVE is very much PVE orientated. If a player wants to achieve something they end up PVE-ing 90% of their time which is boring. Some people hate it, others love it. Some play EVE as a PVP game, others as a PVE game. Without PVE-ers EVE would not exist. Without PVPers EVE would be no fun.
The devs and gm's in EVE listen to the players and take their concerns and oppinions into account. Several times now CCP have tried to balance the game by implementing changes the community have demanded because of imbalances in classes. For example a few modules overpower a few ships too much and ruin the fun of the majority of the players. They changed it once and now they will change it again. Whether that will be of any help we will see but they try.
When was the last time Blizzard fixed the imbalances? People have been saying rogues are overpowered because they can stun and keep players stunned. They evade traps, dots and everything else when they cloak. People have been spamming every single forum I see with their demands for Blizzard to fix rogues for years and what has Blizzard done about it? Nothing. I play a warlock, a priest and a warrior in WOW and the PVP is pathetic, disgraceful and stupid. There is no logic to it at all and it doesn't make sense. I still haven't come across a single person who can explain to me why rogues are the only class that can cloak and dots simply stop when they don't stop on cloaked druids.
My family and I love PVP and we don't PVP in WOW which makes WOW pointless. There are people who just want to PVE in a carefree world but I don't and it bores me to death so I play EVE to hurt others and because I think it's fun being a real participant in the economy and developement of my clan/guild/corp. You can claim I am not a real participant because all I do is fatten them up but it is nothing to the non-participation in WOW. I am in a clan in WOW and there is a small group who do things together and leave the rest out. I don't want to go with them, don't want to do things with them and avoid them because they never help me and this isn't just them but, I have found, a common factor in WOW because you don't gain anything by helping others. In EVE the least you gain by helping others is money.
Last thing I will touch on is maturity and mentality. I have found the average mentality of WoW players to be pre-pubescant. Everytime I log on everyone is talking about some dumb thing and none of them are able to talk about anything sensible. For example most of the people I have met are only interested in how much money they have, how expensive their watches are, how often they get laid and how often they do this and that. Then they went on to insult women and I asked them to stop, and one of the people there started swearing at me and then went on to block me because I asked him not to behave like that when my wife was on.
While I have no problem with childishness the people in WOW really push the limits of mental ability to an all time low.
EVE is a cruel game, it's evil and it's harsh. I have made and lost a lot of money and I enjoy it. EVE is not for everyone simply because of its harshness but to turn EVE or all games into WOW because the WOW noobs whine that it's not like WOW is something that will kill EVE. I don't care about WOW, I care about EVE and if you honestly can't accept that not everything will be like WOW you'd better kill yourself now because real life (the thing the whiners here probably try their best not to acknowledge) is cruel, evil and harsh. I play and have played several MMO's and am not new to the genre. EVE and WOW are not the only ones as I really loved Knight Online until K2 killed it with their argument with MGame, their unwillingness to do something about the macroing and the corrupt GM's.
Not all games are for everyone and not everyone will enjoy every game. Some love WOW, others hate it. What I hate the most are the little children who want instant gratification because they've never had to work for anything and don't understand the meaning of reward after a days of hard work and thing everything should be their way because they're demanding it. The world isn't WOW so cease the whining.
I am sorry my post is all over the place but I am playing EVE while I type this and I am writing things as they come to my mind.
Liranan, I would put that post in the rating section on Eve if I would you it's a pretty good summing up.
Personally, I wasn't aware of WoW having any pvp in a real sense. They have the arenas which are stricly small-scale e-sport events and the BG's are just a race to get max honor. Open world pvp means level 70's ganking 30's at Nessingway's, does that count?
PvP to me needs to be on a bigger scale than WoW has so no thanks to Blizzards pvp.
The only thing I would take from WoW pvp is it's accessibility and lack of death penalty. Any pvp heavy game needs to recognise that people are going to be dieing alot and not be overly penal. There are plenty of games out there that have their formulas wrong and crusify people for dieing, let people go to them if they want that and Jumpgate can be a breath of fresh air.
_________________________________________ You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
Liranan, I would put that post in the rating section on Eve if I would you it's a pretty good summing up. Personally, I wasn't aware of WoW having any pvp in a real sense. They have the arenas which are stricly small-scale e-sport events and the BG's are just a race to get max honor. Open world pvp means level 70's ganking 30's at Nessingway's, does that count? PvP to me needs to be on a bigger scale than WoW has so no thanks to Blizzards pvp. The only thing I would take from WoW pvp is it's accessibility and lack of death penalty. Any pvp heavy game needs to recognise that people are going to be dieing alot and not be overly penal. There are plenty of games out there that have their formulas wrong and crusify people for dieing, let people go to them if they want that and Jumpgate can be a breath of fresh air.
It is the lack of penalty that makes PVP in WOW boring. I don't think that should be applied to Warhammer nor to Jumpgate Evolution or any other game. I do like the honour system however I think one should get points for killing an opponent however the lack of penalty is what has made the BG's in WOW pointless and boring.
I do like the idea of arena's but I don't like the idea of the BG's. I think either world pvp or there should be a designated area for PVP in which people fight endlessly and the points they earn go towards the status of the clan/guild. I think the entire PVP system in WOW needs a revamp but this isn't about WOW this is about JE.
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Thinking I might give it a try, as I remember hearing very good things about way back when.
And if they released the source code for this game, why in hell wouldn't EA release the code for Earth and Beyond??? It had at least a faithful followingf as Allegiance.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
Amazing to read that someone actually thinks that Jumpgate Evolution would even consider adopting any type of game mechanics from "WOW/crap" I don't know about the rest of this forum population and weather they have even tried hopping onto the Jumpgate game and giving it a shot but the game has servived since I started back in 2002 and has been going ever since albeit their has been a lack of people on for the past 5 years.
But the fact that the game has servived and gone on running without none of the spammers and Trolls and that the community wether being Octavion , Quantar or ...cough .... Solarian....chuckle... have worked together and bought and paid for this new venture that netdevil has created to expand Jumpgate and update it to were it should be.
All the wanna be's or haters can move on jumpgate has had an established community for years and will remain so and I very much doubt your going to see anything wowified or Evein this game! Now as for the pvp system it is really good and has been for years just to many people have over looked the game due to it's lack of Graphics compaired to todays games and thankfully they have now brought us Jumpgate Evolution to rectify that. Now as for compairing this game to Eve-Online I can gaurentee their will be nothing of the sort this game (Evolution) is not a point and click game constantly relying on how quick can you press that button or how many gankers you can fit into a squad and pirate newbs all day. This game will rely on skill and your ability to maneuver with your ("Joy Stick") not how fast you can press those damn buttons.
Now don't get me wrong Eve is a really good game but it lacks in interaction and ability to physically do what you want in a space inviroment and as for the reskinning of Eve looks great but you won't see me playing it anytime soon.........and as for WOW all I can say is BLAAHHH! let the sludge hit the floor....
Very interesting. Although I still feel that comparing to WoW's PvP mechanics is detrimental to the space genre and fundamentally flawed.
It's EVE they should be using as a benchmark. Those subscription numbers they're talking about are most likely going to move across to WAR or AoC anyway... Not come here to JGE. They're aiming at the wrong crowd of people.
Sitting on the fence will only hurt the game. It's PvP or server specific, nothing else will work.
WoW has nothing to do with space and therefore shouldn't even be mentioned. (other than to say it's junk)
EVE should NOT be used as an example of how to make a space game, ELITE should be..
NOT EVERYONE LIKES PvP, therefore the most profitable way to include PvP is to have either
A. Have PvP and PvE servers seperate with PvP possible in a specific zone on PvE servers (giving people the option to PvP if they want rather than forcing them to do it or be ganked all the time.)
B. Have a system where it's open PvP but you have to be flagged as PvP, /pvp toggle command for example. Anyone trying to gank someone who isn't flagged cannot do anything to the person not flagged and gets a bounty on their heads and the authorities hunt them down till either a week (real time) has passed or they pay a fine at a base. a simple change in colour on display of name or something can be used to indicate if someone is flagged or not.
Those that enjoy ganking lower levels just for the sake of it are extremely sad people and only enjoy harrassing others, there should be strict rules against ganking for the sake of it.
Personally I think your option B is the way to go. That way all of space is available to every player. Plus when you zone off it becomes like an arena, and PvP'ers will whine because they can't pk in the area of their choice.
Option B works for me because I can go about playing the game the way I want to without being ganked,, and should I choose change my Carebear ways and try some PvP, then I have that option. The only problem I see with that system , is that PvP would have little effect on the actual game world itself. It would simply become PvP for the sake of PvP. And thats not what the hardcore PvP'ers want.
So is there really a solution to the eternal question?
-"Can PvP and carebear co-exist in the same game?"
I think only the PvP'ers can answer that and I'm guessing the answer is no.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Antaran Personally I think your option B is the way to go. That way all of space is available to every player. Plus when you zone off it becomes like an arena, and PvP'ers will whine because they can't pk in the area of their choice. Option B works for me because I can go about playing the game the way I want to without being ganked,, and should I choose change my Carebear ways and try some PvP, then I have that option. The only problem I see with that system , is that PvP would have little effect on the actual game world itself. It would simply become PvP for the sake of PvP. And thats not what the hardcore PvP'ers want. So is there really a solution to the eternal question? -"Can PvP and carebear co-exist in the same game?" I think only the PvP'ers can answer that and I'm guessing the answer is no.
I don't want to sound rude here but why is it only the PvP'ers that can answer that question?
PvP'ers shouldn't be the main concern when it comes to gaming, yes there are lots of people that just like to PvP but there are loads of games that are designed specificaly for PVP.
The Casual or game loving people (carebears as you call them) prefer playing a game for the game, not just one aspect of a game.
I agree that B would be the best option for any type of MMO, i took the idea from SWG pre-NGE when you could flag yourself as PvP capable on/off when you wanted, but there was a timer for going non PvP from PvP so it couldn't be exploited, this timer would also cancel when you got attacked if i remember right. in this type of setting both gamers and PvP'ers can co-exist together, gamers wouldn't get harrassed by the PvP'ers so they could do what they wanted, PvP'ers would likely moan about the lack of people being able to be attacked but that's their problem as it's each persons individual choice on what they want to do.
If PvP'ers want a pure PvP space game i suggest EVE as thats got lots of PvP and it's all open without having to flag yourself as being in PvP mode.
I'm sorry if i sound harsh but i'm sick and tired of the PvP community being considered the main target for games, specially when it comes to space games, there's EVE for the PvP fans, let us GAMERS have one where we get the option if we want to or not.
I understand that this game is just a cash cow and that the developers are trying to make as much money as they can. If people want a toned down server I say give it to them. But this game won't survive unless it has a dedicated PvP server or at least dedicated PvP areas. This is a MMO set in space, a massively diverse area that will be populated by people and A.I. alike. The A.I. don't have a choice to opt out of PvP, why should another player going about his/her business? I want to immerse myself in a game that makes me feel like I'm in space. A game that makes me feel like there could be real consequences to my actions/other peoples actions. I want it to feel as realistic as it can possibly be. Its this very sort of realism that has kept EvE going for as long as it has. Without it, it would be just another cookie cutter space-based RPG. The only tip the developers should be taking from WoW is the difference in realm types. If they want to know what makes a space genre MMO survive, they should look at EvE and start building their great gameplay upon that. Seriously, if EvE had the kind of gameplay I experienced at Connect, it would have wiped the floor a long time ago.
Actually, the biggest draw to MMO's isn't PvP. It's COOP play. You know, like when you play with friends, except you don't try to kill each other, you try to kill something else together.
You can do that with PvE play, just look at all of the guilds in PvE games. Just because WoW decided to support limited PvP doesn't mean that's what's responsible for their success.
If anything, it's the opposite- some level 20 comes in and starts killing people who are just starting the game and can't possibly fight back, well he might be thinking he's all cool, but the rest of us think he's an ass, and Blizzard is an ass to let that happen lol. I had that happen in EQ1 when I first tried PvP- some asshat level 5 was standing at the spawn spot, killing everyone who logged in in 1 hit and looting their 2 copper pieces omg. I tried 4 times to get in and get started, finally evading him long enough to hide (racial ability). Then I realized how stupid the EQ devs were to let that happen and just logged out and deleted the char.
Oh bout Eve- imnsho, it's the fact that it's the only real space game in town that brings people in, and all of the alt accounts sucking up that "free training" (on paid accounts lol) that keeps CCP alive at all. More than half of my old corp had at least 1 paid alt account (I started one too until I came to my senses lol). And all of teh "cool people" had three alts so they could be all godlike lol.
I'd guess without alts, their revenue would be half, and they'd be out of business.
Dear Developers: I am constantly amazed that MMO games get developed with a strong emphasis on PVP. Frankly, i HATE PVP. Not that I am aginst one on one, which is somewhat honorable,but usually PVP turns out to be a gank fest of 6 on one or it starts after a player is engaged in RVR,which is also unfair.. The most successful MMORPG game in history is WOW. Why not adopt their strategy? Have some servers with very limited PVP unless consensual and some with wide open PVP except for starting areas. This would appeal to everyone. Also, as with WOW, instead of forcing folks into PVP, you can have a few ( and I mean a very few) zones that are PVP oriented and give some good rewards. Thus, you would be using the carrot vs. the stick approach. You can even have special PVP events found in "arena" types of zones. If you are going to put PVP in all servers, then at least make it painless with cheap insurance or little penalty for ship destruction, If you want to maximize your player potential and therefore profitability, you will adopt my suggestions.
LOL. WoW have the most stupid and unavoidable gankfest than any other MMO. Really most of the wowfanboys even do not know what they are talking. Just see the MMO list below... The most stupid MMO from them is WoW, and I hope no one game will get anything stupid from it.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.
If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.
If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.
Oh sure .... Like thats ever going to happen.
C'mon people, get real here. If there is PvP, then there is going to be ganking. The PvP'ers admit it. Why can't you? Thats the whole problem. You expect a fair fight against a real person? Give your head a shake. It's all about having an advantage on the other guy. The bigger the better. Anybody looking for a fair fight in PvP is just delusional IMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.
If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.
Oh sure .... Like thats ever going to happen.
C'mon people, get real here. If there is PvP, then there is going to be ganking. The PvP'ers admit it. Why can't you? Thats the whole problem. You expect a fair fight against a real person? Give your head a shake. It's all about having an advantage on the other guy. The bigger the better. Anybody looking for a fair fight in PvP is just delusional IMO.
Unfortunately, that shows how little you know about game design. PvP game balance isn't about equality, it's about unequal advantages for BOTH sides. That's how you get tension and the opportunity to use skill into the fight, without which there'd be no point to playing at all.
Oh and I'm a PvP'er, and I don't "admit there'll be ganking", because real PvP'rs don't gank - that's just taking advantage of poor game balance to make yourself feel like a winner, when in reality, there wasn't a real chance of losing. You're cheating yourself like that, not to mention just being a general @ss to people.
Real PvP'ers let the helpless noobs wander on by, or you even help them get going, so that someday they can present you with a real fight, with real gains for the victor, instead of a moment of futile resistance, a piece of rusty loot and some pocket lint lol.
reading all these posts i have to wonder how many of you ppl out there have actually played jump gate,JGE is an UPGRADE to the original game that is a blast for new and vet players alike.
jumpgate has the play style and game mechanics down pat for the most part, only thing it was missing was a big enough universe and a player base.
The PvE and PvP in the game are well setup within the boundries of the game and jumpgate is nothing like any other space MMO b4 or now.EVE is boreing having played it for 8-12 months i have not met one vet that wasnt bored to tears nearly half of the time they were playing,goofing off and getting drunk and basicly just to wrapped up in the investment they had put into and the social firends they had made to leave in search of something better.
JGE is for the most part (i hope) just a gfx/sound and larger universe with some more content,and for the most part keeping the real space physics flight mechanics and economy ect as it is in the original game right now,that i am playing again and i suggest all you ppl out there that are yapping for changes and useing other games as an exsample of how to change things to shut up and go play jumpgate.
WOW is not a benchmark for anything,it is not the best MMO on the market just because of sub numbers,75-80% of WOWs subs have NEVER tryed anything else and they have no opinion worth hearing on subjects they have 0 experience with.
if i remember rightly WOW was so back logged at launch because they only had 1-2 PvP servers because all their research showed none hardly likes to PvP,yet it was these PvP servers that were over flowing with ppl trying to get in and all or most of the other server types were quite low volume and easyer to get in even as they added alot more PvP servers in the following days/weeks trying to login to a PvP server any time in the first mosnth or 2 yeiled waiting times of 4+ hours.i dont actually pay to wait in ques i guess their research department wasnt as smart as they thought they were.
there where many threads on the main forums yelling for more PvP servers B4 end of betta but obviously WOW knows best. NOT.
so leave other games out of the mix when it comes to JGE untill you have played the original and have seen first hand how well it is setup and how it all fits so nicly together.
Dear Developers: I am constantly amazed that MMO games get developed with a strong emphasis on PVP. Frankly, i HATE PVP. Not that I am aginst one on one, which is somewhat honorable,but usually PVP turns out to be a gank fest of 6 on one or it starts after a player is engaged in RVR,which is also unfair.. The most successful MMORPG game in history is WOW. Why not adopt their strategy? Have some servers with very limited PVP unless consensual and some with wide open PVP except for starting areas. This would appeal to everyone. Also, as with WOW, instead of forcing folks into PVP, you can have a few ( and I mean a very few) zones that are PVP oriented and give some good rewards. Thus, you would be using the carrot vs. the stick approach. You can even have special PVP events found in "arena" types of zones. If you are going to put PVP in all servers, then at least make it painless with cheap insurance or little penalty for ship destruction, If you want to maximize your player potential and therefore profitability, you will adopt my suggestions.
This doens't sound like your game taxguy. Eve isn't your game either.
One thing you need for Eve, (i'm not sure about jumpgate evo), is that you need friends. Strength is in numbers. You need a corporation to hang out with and run stuff with them. That is how you don't get constantly blown up. And lets face it. Getting blown up is fun and enacting revenge on enemies is even more fun. It means more when the stakes are real. Not the pansy WoW just die over and over again attitude.
You know... I am not a pvp'er either, but I loved PVP in the original Jumpgate.
Believe me, it has nothing to do with WOW... it just adds an element of danger to space exploration, and you don't have to engage in it per se. If you get ambushed at a jumpgate (which would happen in JG) you can always try to evade.
If the new JG is anything like the original, there is plenty of friendly space. You just need to venture into the "danger zone" sometimes to get to interesting places.
Comments
WoW was developed for an expected audience of 250K.
I don't think that's currently a big enough audience however to attract any further investment.
Eve has only ever had the one retail release. It's economy may have had an article written about it in Forbes magasine, but it's developers and publishers never will.
I play EVE and I love it. EVE is a PVP game that is hard. PVP has penalties which range from being blown up by NPC police to being killed by others and death has serious concequences. EVE is also skill based not level based. I have seen new players get into the cheapest of ships with useless equipment and totally pwn wealthy and much higher 'level' players. EVE is boring because there's strategy involved. When you are in a group with 700 others listening to orders are very important and the conquest and destruction of another entities fleet and base of operations is very rewarding.
EVE is the only game I have seen with a real economy. The developers define what can be found where and what can be turned into what but the players are the ones who make them, find them, gather them, create them and then destroy them keeping the economy going eternally. Then when an item is created it is put up on the market where real competition takes place and where people can make uncountable amounts of money and can lose it all too.
Then there're the professions in EVE. EVE is not a 'oh-look-i-killed-a-bear-i-am-going-to-skin-it-for-nothing' because the professions in EVE have the potential to really pay off. If all the miners in EVE stopped mining or quit the game the game for a week the game would grind to a standstill and die simply because they are the foundation of the game. What would happen if the miners in WoW stopped mining for a week? Crafting is meaningless in WOW and one can play WOW without ever crafting anything or buying anything from the AH. That is IMPOSSIBLE in EVE.
I have mentioned PVP already but I will mention it again. The PVP in EVE can be tedious. It is boring, it is hard and it is tiring. The stress one experiences in EVE is immense. You work for six months for that one thing you want, then lose it the first day you buy it. It creates hatred, anger, rage, frustration and it causes people to enact revenge on those who have wronged them and that's what keeps EVE going. Not everyone likes being in a group with 500 others and sit somewhere and do nothing for four hours, some fly around space and kill people indiscriminately and piracy is rife. Then there's stealing from others. You see someone doing a mission (quest) or mining you can steal their items to get them to attack you. I have done this many times and it is great fun, whether I win or lose.
EVE is very much PVE orientated. If a player wants to achieve something they end up PVE-ing 90% of their time which is boring. Some people hate it, others love it. Some play EVE as a PVP game, others as a PVE game. Without PVE-ers EVE would not exist. Without PVPers EVE would be no fun.
The devs and gm's in EVE listen to the players and take their concerns and oppinions into account. Several times now CCP have tried to balance the game by implementing changes the community have demanded because of imbalances in classes. For example a few modules overpower a few ships too much and ruin the fun of the majority of the players. They changed it once and now they will change it again. Whether that will be of any help we will see but they try.
When was the last time Blizzard fixed the imbalances? People have been saying rogues are overpowered because they can stun and keep players stunned. They evade traps, dots and everything else when they cloak. People have been spamming every single forum I see with their demands for Blizzard to fix rogues for years and what has Blizzard done about it? Nothing. I play a warlock, a priest and a warrior in WOW and the PVP is pathetic, disgraceful and stupid. There is no logic to it at all and it doesn't make sense. I still haven't come across a single person who can explain to me why rogues are the only class that can cloak and dots simply stop when they don't stop on cloaked druids.
My family and I love PVP and we don't PVP in WOW which makes WOW pointless. There are people who just want to PVE in a carefree world but I don't and it bores me to death so I play EVE to hurt others and because I think it's fun being a real participant in the economy and developement of my clan/guild/corp. You can claim I am not a real participant because all I do is fatten them up but it is nothing to the non-participation in WOW. I am in a clan in WOW and there is a small group who do things together and leave the rest out. I don't want to go with them, don't want to do things with them and avoid them because they never help me and this isn't just them but, I have found, a common factor in WOW because you don't gain anything by helping others. In EVE the least you gain by helping others is money.
Last thing I will touch on is maturity and mentality. I have found the average mentality of WoW players to be pre-pubescant. Everytime I log on everyone is talking about some dumb thing and none of them are able to talk about anything sensible. For example most of the people I have met are only interested in how much money they have, how expensive their watches are, how often they get laid and how often they do this and that. Then they went on to insult women and I asked them to stop, and one of the people there started swearing at me and then went on to block me because I asked him not to behave like that when my wife was on.
While I have no problem with childishness the people in WOW really push the limits of mental ability to an all time low.
EVE is a cruel game, it's evil and it's harsh. I have made and lost a lot of money and I enjoy it. EVE is not for everyone simply because of its harshness but to turn EVE or all games into WOW because the WOW noobs whine that it's not like WOW is something that will kill EVE. I don't care about WOW, I care about EVE and if you honestly can't accept that not everything will be like WOW you'd better kill yourself now because real life (the thing the whiners here probably try their best not to acknowledge) is cruel, evil and harsh. I play and have played several MMO's and am not new to the genre. EVE and WOW are not the only ones as I really loved Knight Online until K2 killed it with their argument with MGame, their unwillingness to do something about the macroing and the corrupt GM's.
Not all games are for everyone and not everyone will enjoy every game. Some love WOW, others hate it. What I hate the most are the little children who want instant gratification because they've never had to work for anything and don't understand the meaning of reward after a days of hard work and thing everything should be their way because they're demanding it. The world isn't WOW so cease the whining.
I am sorry my post is all over the place but I am playing EVE while I type this and I am writing things as they come to my mind.
Meanwhile back at the Jumpgate Evolution forum....
My post was aimed at the "Plz turn everythin in2 WoW PLZ PLZ PLZ!1!!11!" crowd.
Liranan, I would put that post in the rating section on Eve if I would you it's a pretty good summing up.
Personally, I wasn't aware of WoW having any pvp in a real sense. They have the arenas which are stricly small-scale e-sport events and the BG's are just a race to get max honor. Open world pvp means level 70's ganking 30's at Nessingway's, does that count?
PvP to me needs to be on a bigger scale than WoW has so no thanks to Blizzards pvp.
The only thing I would take from WoW pvp is it's accessibility and lack of death penalty. Any pvp heavy game needs to recognise that people are going to be dieing alot and not be overly penal. There are plenty of games out there that have their formulas wrong and crusify people for dieing, let people go to them if they want that and Jumpgate can be a breath of fresh air.
_________________________________________
You can walk the walk but can you talk the talk?
It is the lack of penalty that makes PVP in WOW boring. I don't think that should be applied to Warhammer nor to Jumpgate Evolution or any other game. I do like the honour system however I think one should get points for killing an opponent however the lack of penalty is what has made the BG's in WOW pointless and boring.
I do like the idea of arena's but I don't like the idea of the BG's. I think either world pvp or there should be a designated area for PVP in which people fight endlessly and the points they earn go towards the status of the clan/guild. I think the entire PVP system in WOW needs a revamp but this isn't about WOW this is about JE.
I don't know what the developers intend to do but if this is going to be WOW in space then i wills tay clear. I would like to see open PVP with serious penalties.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
They already made that game and nobody played it.
http://www.freeallegiance.org/
Thinking I might give it a try, as I remember hearing very good things about way back when.
And if they released the source code for this game, why in hell wouldn't EA release the code for Earth and Beyond??? It had at least a faithful followingf as Allegiance.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Amazing to read that someone actually thinks that Jumpgate Evolution would even consider adopting any type of game mechanics from "WOW/crap" I don't know about the rest of this forum population and weather they have even tried hopping onto the Jumpgate game and giving it a shot but the game has servived since I started back in 2002 and has been going ever since albeit their has been a lack of people on for the past 5 years.
But the fact that the game has servived and gone on running without none of the spammers and Trolls and that the community wether being Octavion , Quantar or ...cough .... Solarian....chuckle... have worked together and bought and paid for this new venture that netdevil has created to expand Jumpgate and update it to were it should be.
All the wanna be's or haters can move on jumpgate has had an established community for years and will remain so and I very much doubt your going to see anything wowified or Evein this game! Now as for the pvp system it is really good and has been for years just to many people have over looked the game due to it's lack of Graphics compaired to todays games and thankfully they have now brought us Jumpgate Evolution to rectify that. Now as for compairing this game to Eve-Online I can gaurentee their will be nothing of the sort this game (Evolution) is not a point and click game constantly relying on how quick can you press that button or how many gankers you can fit into a squad and pirate newbs all day. This game will rely on skill and your ability to maneuver with your ("Joy Stick") not how fast you can press those damn buttons.
Now don't get me wrong Eve is a really good game but it lacks in interaction and ability to physically do what you want in a space inviroment and as for the reskinning of Eve looks great but you won't see me playing it anytime soon.........and as for WOW all I can say is BLAAHHH! let the sludge hit the floor....
NO
NO
NO
NO
A THOUSAND TIMES NO.
WoW PVP is some of THE WORST PvP to be put in an MMO. Avoid it at all costs.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Dear developers,
Don't listen to the OP, he has no clue what he is talking about. WoW sucks, WoW PvP sucks.
Very interesting. Although I still feel that comparing to WoW's PvP mechanics is detrimental to the space genre and fundamentally flawed.
It's EVE they should be using as a benchmark. Those subscription numbers they're talking about are most likely going to move across to WAR or AoC anyway... Not come here to JGE. They're aiming at the wrong crowd of people.
Sitting on the fence will only hurt the game. It's PvP or server specific, nothing else will work.
WoW has nothing to do with space and therefore shouldn't even be mentioned. (other than to say it's junk)
EVE should NOT be used as an example of how to make a space game, ELITE should be..
NOT EVERYONE LIKES PvP, therefore the most profitable way to include PvP is to have either
A. Have PvP and PvE servers seperate with PvP possible in a specific zone on PvE servers (giving people the option to PvP if they want rather than forcing them to do it or be ganked all the time.)
B. Have a system where it's open PvP but you have to be flagged as PvP, /pvp toggle command for example. Anyone trying to gank someone who isn't flagged cannot do anything to the person not flagged and gets a bounty on their heads and the authorities hunt them down till either a week (real time) has passed or they pay a fine at a base. a simple change in colour on display of name or something can be used to indicate if someone is flagged or not.
Those that enjoy ganking lower levels just for the sake of it are extremely sad people and only enjoy harrassing others, there should be strict rules against ganking for the sake of it.
Antaran
Personally I think your option B is the way to go. That way all of space is available to every player. Plus when you zone off it becomes like an arena, and PvP'ers will whine because they can't pk in the area of their choice.
Option B works for me because I can go about playing the game the way I want to without being ganked,, and should I choose change my Carebear ways and try some PvP, then I have that option. The only problem I see with that system , is that PvP would have little effect on the actual game world itself. It would simply become PvP for the sake of PvP. And thats not what the hardcore PvP'ers want.
So is there really a solution to the eternal question?
-"Can PvP and carebear co-exist in the same game?"
I think only the PvP'ers can answer that and I'm guessing the answer is no.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't want to sound rude here but why is it only the PvP'ers that can answer that question?
PvP'ers shouldn't be the main concern when it comes to gaming, yes there are lots of people that just like to PvP but there are loads of games that are designed specificaly for PVP.
The Casual or game loving people (carebears as you call them) prefer playing a game for the game, not just one aspect of a game.
I agree that B would be the best option for any type of MMO, i took the idea from SWG pre-NGE when you could flag yourself as PvP capable on/off when you wanted, but there was a timer for going non PvP from PvP so it couldn't be exploited, this timer would also cancel when you got attacked if i remember right. in this type of setting both gamers and PvP'ers can co-exist together, gamers wouldn't get harrassed by the PvP'ers so they could do what they wanted, PvP'ers would likely moan about the lack of people being able to be attacked but that's their problem as it's each persons individual choice on what they want to do.
If PvP'ers want a pure PvP space game i suggest EVE as thats got lots of PvP and it's all open without having to flag yourself as being in PvP mode.
I'm sorry if i sound harsh but i'm sick and tired of the PvP community being considered the main target for games, specially when it comes to space games, there's EVE for the PvP fans, let us GAMERS have one where we get the option if we want to or not.
Actually, the biggest draw to MMO's isn't PvP. It's COOP play. You know, like when you play with friends, except you don't try to kill each other, you try to kill something else together.
You can do that with PvE play, just look at all of the guilds in PvE games. Just because WoW decided to support limited PvP doesn't mean that's what's responsible for their success.
If anything, it's the opposite- some level 20 comes in and starts killing people who are just starting the game and can't possibly fight back, well he might be thinking he's all cool, but the rest of us think he's an ass, and Blizzard is an ass to let that happen lol. I had that happen in EQ1 when I first tried PvP- some asshat level 5 was standing at the spawn spot, killing everyone who logged in in 1 hit and looting their 2 copper pieces omg. I tried 4 times to get in and get started, finally evading him long enough to hide (racial ability). Then I realized how stupid the EQ devs were to let that happen and just logged out and deleted the char.
Oh bout Eve- imnsho, it's the fact that it's the only real space game in town that brings people in, and all of the alt accounts sucking up that "free training" (on paid accounts lol) that keeps CCP alive at all. More than half of my old corp had at least 1 paid alt account (I started one too until I came to my senses lol). And all of teh "cool people" had three alts so they could be all godlike lol.
I'd guess without alts, their revenue would be half, and they'd be out of business.
LOL. WoW have the most stupid and unavoidable gankfest than any other MMO. Really most of the wowfanboys even do not know what they are talking. Just see the MMO list below... The most stupid MMO from them is WoW, and I hope no one game will get anything stupid from it.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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LordOfDarkDesire
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.
If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.
If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.
Oh sure .... Like thats ever going to happen.
C'mon people, get real here. If there is PvP, then there is going to be ganking. The PvP'ers admit it. Why can't you? Thats the whole problem. You expect a fair fight against a real person? Give your head a shake. It's all about having an advantage on the other guy. The bigger the better. Anybody looking for a fair fight in PvP is just delusional IMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
No. Just no. It is been quite clear that stiff penalties is NOT what players want. That is one of the reasons why Eve, while good, is still so niche.
EVE is for masochists. I want a fun game where I can't lose several weeks worth of play by getting killed while traveling from point A to point B. If Jumpgate is trying to be EVE, EVE already has that niche.
Nah, EVE is for people who enjoy challenges, AKA not the average Joe like yourself. Eat some McDs.. Yum...
EVE is for people who are subscribed longer.
Yah. Not to derail the thread, but the last thing I want is to log in and find out I have no chance of killing a griefing, skill-less wonder who bought his 40mil SP char with 5 billion isk and a stable of T2 battleships on Ebay.
If there's PvP, I want a chance to win or take my enemy with me. If I'm good enough.
Oh sure .... Like thats ever going to happen.
C'mon people, get real here. If there is PvP, then there is going to be ganking. The PvP'ers admit it. Why can't you? Thats the whole problem. You expect a fair fight against a real person? Give your head a shake. It's all about having an advantage on the other guy. The bigger the better. Anybody looking for a fair fight in PvP is just delusional IMO.
Unfortunately, that shows how little you know about game design. PvP game balance isn't about equality, it's about unequal advantages for BOTH sides. That's how you get tension and the opportunity to use skill into the fight, without which there'd be no point to playing at all.
Oh and I'm a PvP'er, and I don't "admit there'll be ganking", because real PvP'rs don't gank - that's just taking advantage of poor game balance to make yourself feel like a winner, when in reality, there wasn't a real chance of losing. You're cheating yourself like that, not to mention just being a general @ss to people.
Real PvP'ers let the helpless noobs wander on by, or you even help them get going, so that someday they can present you with a real fight, with real gains for the victor, instead of a moment of futile resistance, a piece of rusty loot and some pocket lint lol.
reading all these posts i have to wonder how many of you ppl out there have actually played jump gate,JGE is an UPGRADE to the original game that is a blast for new and vet players alike.
jumpgate has the play style and game mechanics down pat for the most part, only thing it was missing was a big enough universe and a player base.
The PvE and PvP in the game are well setup within the boundries of the game and jumpgate is nothing like any other space MMO b4 or now.EVE is boreing having played it for 8-12 months i have not met one vet that wasnt bored to tears nearly half of the time they were playing,goofing off and getting drunk and basicly just to wrapped up in the investment they had put into and the social firends they had made to leave in search of something better.
JGE is for the most part (i hope) just a gfx/sound and larger universe with some more content,and for the most part keeping the real space physics flight mechanics and economy ect as it is in the original game right now,that i am playing again and i suggest all you ppl out there that are yapping for changes and useing other games as an exsample of how to change things to shut up and go play jumpgate.
WOW is not a benchmark for anything,it is not the best MMO on the market just because of sub numbers,75-80% of WOWs subs have NEVER tryed anything else and they have no opinion worth hearing on subjects they have 0 experience with.
if i remember rightly WOW was so back logged at launch because they only had 1-2 PvP servers because all their research showed none hardly likes to PvP,yet it was these PvP servers that were over flowing with ppl trying to get in and all or most of the other server types were quite low volume and easyer to get in even as they added alot more PvP servers in the following days/weeks trying to login to a PvP server any time in the first mosnth or 2 yeiled waiting times of 4+ hours.i dont actually pay to wait in ques i guess their research department wasnt as smart as they thought they were.
there where many threads on the main forums yelling for more PvP servers B4 end of betta but obviously WOW knows best. NOT.
so leave other games out of the mix when it comes to JGE untill you have played the original and have seen first hand how well it is setup and how it all fits so nicly together.
Gee Dave I'd like to believe that you're all noble and would even go out of your way to help new players.
But if you are, then that makes you a minority in PvP, IMO. Not sayin there aren't players like you but I think you're outnumbered.
And players don't kill for rusty loot and pocket lint, my friend.
They kill you because they like it, and because they can.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
This doens't sound like your game taxguy. Eve isn't your game either.
One thing you need for Eve, (i'm not sure about jumpgate evo), is that you need friends. Strength is in numbers. You need a corporation to hang out with and run stuff with them. That is how you don't get constantly blown up. And lets face it. Getting blown up is fun and enacting revenge on enemies is even more fun. It means more when the stakes are real. Not the pansy WoW just die over and over again attitude.
You know... I am not a pvp'er either, but I loved PVP in the original Jumpgate.
Believe me, it has nothing to do with WOW... it just adds an element of danger to space exploration, and you don't have to engage in it per se. If you get ambushed at a jumpgate (which would happen in JG) you can always try to evade.
If the new JG is anything like the original, there is plenty of friendly space. You just need to venture into the "danger zone" sometimes to get to interesting places.