I don't mind them. Of course I lived thru the hell that was UO post trammel with 0 instances and not really a lot of dungeons. Trying to tag mobs before everyone else gets old.
DDO is also mostly instanced and though there is "good gear" it doesn't really overpower anything.
For anyone who doesn't know DDO already, this is the opposite of the truth. DDO is nothing but a grindfest for extremely overpowered gear.
Again, I think that's because you make it that way, just like the players in WoW. Though I do have to admit that you do have to repeat quests quite too often, at least from what I've seen in the lower lvls. However, from what I've seen, you can get through a good part of the game without "uber" gear.
With regards to needing a large amount of players to do anything of merit, that's not true. If you've played Baldur's gate or Neverwinter Nights or even Oblivion you would note that it is small groups that take on the storyline. to that end a game like LOTRO also utilizes a small group for its quests.
As far as Guild Wars not being an MMO, I think that's semantics. You can group with a huge amount of people at your disposal, the groups are just small. And if you look at what happens in an mmo, you usually are just in your party doing whatever it is you are doing.
I can't believe that its the chance of coming upon someone else that has to define it as an mmo. So if you don't come upoin anyone else then the experience is ruined?
Though maybe it does come down to, once again, Sanbox vs Thempark mmo's, as someone mentioned.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Nextly... STOP SAYING OPEN PVP IS REALISTIC! IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF REALISTIC. "but but, when people do stuff i don't like I can just kill him!" again. Not realistic. There never has been a time in history where people just shanked people for just getting in their way a little bit. Oh this guy killed a bandit that i wanted to kill. Stabbity stab. No. Nor has there ever been a time where people just randomly ran around shanking other people just because they are bored. There has been people to have done these... and they aren't pkers they are simply the rare maniacs. You don't go around expecting someone to come gank you, the exact opposite.
I don't really give a hoot for the topic of this thread but this is clearly wrong. I don't know where your reading your Human history but as a student of Anthropology(a minor with my Computer Science degree) I can tell you that this was the norm from the dawn of man through the Middle Ages. It was especially true through the Dark Ages which is about when fantasy MMORPGs are set in roughly (Although plate armor didn't come in until the Renaissance but even movies get this wrong). Sure ganking someone might get you in trouble with the local magistrate but all you had to do was go to the next city state or kingdom and it was like it never happened. in most parts of Europe this could be as little as a 20 mile walk away.
I'll agree that fully open PvP without consequences like most PvE games have tacked on them as an afterthought through PvP servers isn't very realistic but a true PvP game that puts some kind of rule in effect to limit out and out PKing is very realistic to the time periods these games are supposed to represent.
No the peasants of the time usually didn't go around killing each other but we aren't role playing peasants now are we. We are playing what is equivalent of the dark ages warrior or Knight and killing someone for just pissing you off was commonplace for them. Especially for the Knights of the time as they were basically the law so they could kill anyone almost and no one would question it. This perfect vision we sometimes have of the Knights of old as "holier than thou crusaders for justice in gleaming plate mail" is a fairy tale at best. Knights were some of the most sadistic brutal killers in human history. Most would kill your entire family for as little as a simple insult or not having enough to pay your taxes to the local Lord.
So yes, a game that has been written with PvP at it's core is very realistic to the time periods as they do put some kind of consequences on your actions. These are usually about equivalent to the time periods in question.
Bren
I agree, when i stated open pvp in my post, i meant it along the lines of how people are asking for it, ie just random ganking in the world with no real anything.
If you were to go deeper into my post history(which i won't ask you to do). You can see how i feel the pvp game should behave.
I'll stand by my statement that how open ala lineage 2, or the like pvp doesn't work in a game.
And while i do know about those acts, they are entirely different then how pvp in mmos is, and how I was comparing it. The brutal acts of the knights were horrible, and they were basically "ganking" but they all have a higher reason to them. Be they their lords will, or a insult to them. But it was never a guy walking down the street just shanking random people not doing anything.
And yes some people do play peasants, play UO and the like people wanted to be miners etc. And people did gank them.
If an MMO is designed properly there would be absolutely no need for instances in pve. (no one can argue that they are anything but fail in pvp)
The world should be large enough, and there should be plenty of opportunity to go around. If even the smallest % of the online server population is lining up to kill 1 guy over and over.. maybe thats a sign that there should be another way to get whatever it is your getting from him? Or maybe it should be available on some other equally difficult enemy?
Smalltime quests should be short and sweet anyway, huge epic encounters should be huge and epic, again.. no one has answered this.. What is so epic about an encounter that is so common that players must line up for it? Just to get their hands on a rare l00ts? Then make the stupid item craftable as well or avalable somewhere else from an equaly difficult encounter.. damn its not rocket science.
Dont take my hiding place away! I'll have to deal with people oh NO!
Like everything else, you can argue this topic until your blue in the face.. bottom line is, you guys go buy your battle in a bottle, ill go buy my open world mmo, and well be on our seperate ways.
Originally posted by hanshotfirst What's wrong with instanced dungeons? Isn't it obvious?Because I don't want to have to wait outside a dungeon to ruin your fun. You're limiting my FREEDOM! You're paying a subscription fee to provide ME with content. Why would you want to take that away from me? Why are you so selfish??Instancing is for carebears and lame-o casual players who want easy mode. They aren't manly enough for REAL PvP. They don't have the dedication to be a PRO and play 12+ hours a day like me. They're just whiney babies who want instant gratification, hand holding, and story-telling. Real gamers know stories are for childrens' books!Besides, if I'm not playing with over a thousand people on my screen, simultaneously, at all times, then it's not an MMO. Duh. Even retarted folks know that!And yes, I'm totally being facetious.
I think the funniest thing about this stupid post is how PvP game players act as if they only games that exist in the MMO genre are PvP games.
Originally posted by Sharajat Originally posted by javac Originally posted by Sharajat Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance. Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc. These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible). I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out. It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn* Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth. You're a dumb troll. I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance. Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc. These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible). I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out.
It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn*
Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth.
You're a dumb troll.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of people who read two words of a post and think they understand it.
Epic reading check fail. I think this counts as a critical failure. If you notice, I'm mocking the fact that he thinks that instances are something you do to stay on the "WOW-gear treadmill." Many, many, many games have done instances, before and after WoW, and it's in fact very arguable that WoW's instances are in no way special except that they've been played by lots of people (I'd argue that's the only thing special about them).
Javac seems to have some idea stuck in his head that instances are just a giant treadmill for gear, which I've frankly never seen (even in WoW). That idea is so incredibly wrong that it can only be the work of sheer trolling.
You seem to have some idea stuck in your head that I think WoW was the only MMORPG to ever do instances.
I'm not sure which is wierder.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
While the posts in this thread seem somewhat evenly divided (the majority are with open world, no instancing), it's interesting to see a strange disparity in the camp balance.
1) Those who dislike instancing often make it clear that "we don't care what you do," the games we like to play shouldn't be instanced.
2) Those who want instancing don't do the equivalent. They tend to argue that any game that is made for the first camp should appeal to them, and should have instances. And no one seems to be arguing for a MMO that is entirely instanced for small group play (which wouldn't really be an MMO).
I think it shows that the camps are not really equal. There are good guys and bad guys when it comes to MMO philosophy. The bad ones want to leach off the products marketed to the good ones.
Originally posted by Sharajat Originally posted by UbahNecro
Originally posted by Sharajat
Originally posted by javac
Originally posted by Sharajat
Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance. Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc. These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible). I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out. It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn* Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth. You're a dumb troll. I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW. EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion. I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons. Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of people who read two words of a post and think they understand it.
Epic reading check fail. I think this counts as a critical failure. If you notice, I'm mocking the fact that he thinks that instances are something you do to stay on the "WOW-gear treadmill." Many, many, many games have done instances, before and after WoW, and it's in fact very arguable that WoW's instances are in no way special except that they've been played by lots of people (I'd argue that's the only thing special about them). Javac seems to have some idea stuck in his head that instances are just a giant treadmill for gear, which I've frankly never seen (even in WoW). That idea is so incredibly wrong that it can only be the work of sheer trolling. You seem to have some idea stuck in your head that I think WoW was the only MMORPG to ever do instances. I'm not sure which is wierder.
O'Rly?
"I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons."
Critical Failure? Please master the English language before writing incredibly vague and misguiding statements and then calling others failures for taking them literally.
Instanced dungeons allow you to do a lot of things that are just not feasible in a non-instance. Destructable terrain, cutscenes, etc. These just aren't possible outside an instance, even today (Fallen Earth, for instance, wanted to impliment terrain morphs, but found them technically infeasible/impossible). I really like the idea of our team against the world, and I like knowing it's just us, no one can bail us out.
It's a great feeling, and a good instance run is an absolutely incredible experience.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn*
Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth.
You're a dumb troll.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of people who read two words of a post and think they understand it.
Epic reading check fail. I think this counts as a critical failure. If you notice, I'm mocking the fact that he thinks that instances are something you do to stay on the "WOW-gear treadmill." Many, many, many games have done instances, before and after WoW, and it's in fact very arguable that WoW's instances are in no way special except that they've been played by lots of people (I'd argue that's the only thing special about them).
Javac seems to have some idea stuck in his head that instances are just a giant treadmill for gear, which I've frankly never seen (even in WoW). That idea is so incredibly wrong that it can only be the work of sheer trolling.
You seem to have some idea stuck in your head that I think WoW was the only MMORPG to ever do instances.
I'm not sure which is wierder.
O'Rly?
"I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons."
Critical Failure? Please master the English language before writing incredibly vague and misguiding statements and then calling others failures for taking them literally.
Or stop failing at being witty?
Ooookay....
*backs away slowly*
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
What's wrong with instanced dungeons? Isn't it obvious?
Because I don't want to have to wait outside a dungeon to ruin your fun. You're limiting my FREEDOM! You're paying a subscription fee to provide ME with content. Why would you want to take that away from me? Why are you so selfish?? Instancing is for carebears and lame-o casual players who want easy mode. They aren't manly enough for REAL PvP. They don't have the dedication to be a PRO and play 12+ hours a day like me. They're just whiney babies who want instant gratification, hand holding, and story-telling. Real gamers know stories are for childrens' books! Besides, if I'm not playing with over a thousand people on my screen, simultaneously, at all times, then it's not an MMO. Duh. Even retarted folks know that! And yes, I'm totally being facetious.
I think the funniest thing about this stupid post is how PvP game players act as if they only games that exist in the MMO genre are PvP games.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the word "facetious".
I love instancing. Keeps the horrible memories of EQ away. Instancing removes most of the annoyance of dealing with casaulties of puberty. Downside is the economy can be damaged and farmers have a field day but it is still a small price to pay. I understand the people want noninstanced so if a dragon dies it means something but lets face it the good palces would be camped by basement dwellers and anyone with a job or a social life would never be able to do anything but whack fippy running into Qeynos.
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
I'm almost shure that things that are good for you are bad for me. I do not know any reason I like about instancing. Here are my reason why I do not like them:
1. No interaction between different parties.
Nor is there any immersion breaking interference. Non-instanced dungeons in a lot of games just end up being shopping malls, when they are supposed to be deep, dark, secret places that only a few know about, let alone dare enter.
2. You cannot help other parties.
In which case, the instance will always be a challenge, because you can't take 50 people to handle an encounter designed for 5.
3. You cannot compete other parties.
Why does every corner of an MMO have to involve competition?
4. You cannot hinder/fight other parties
Isn't this just a repeat of 3?
5. They are not Massive but just Multiplay, just consequence from points 1-4.
It's still massive, because you chose your 4+ companions from a massive number of candidates, and when you return to the main world donning your new +1,000,000 helmet, everyone will see it and go, Ooooo, Ahhhhh.
6. Not directly tied with instancing, but becasue their nature and purpose there is almost no respown. So there is just one goal: to clear entire intance. In non instanced dungeons typically there is no such term. You just clear different bosses/part of the dungeon as long as you wish.
I can't really see how this is an advantage, and every game I've ever played with instanced dungeons also has non-instanced ones, so you can do this all day if you want.
I know most peoples do not like massive features online games, but just wonder why so many games name are classified as MMO if they are just "multiplayer online", but there is almost no massive gameplay in them. Instancing is one of the main aspect of this game that ruin the massive gameplay and make it mutiplay.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Well they still havent gotten it right yet.. but technology will allow for that fantastic game someday.
Imagine a powerfull epic dragon.. that is hard enough just getting to the front door of his lair. Yea, thats right, I mean you cant group teleport to his doorstep ok? Instead your group marches out from one of your factions outposts, all the while they are vulnerable to other players, and whatever dangers might be on the way.
Then you gotta take on all of his kin along the way, and by now they (the dragons) know your party is coming and have sent their own attack groups.. all of this and you still arent even at the entrance to this epic dragons lair. Now you imagine the rest.
As far as gankers.. why arent there players factions I wonder? Imagine 3 main player factions, we'll say Alpha, Beta, and Delta. now alpha consists of elves, high elves, woodland humans etc, and Beta consists of dark elves, undead etc..
Now imagine a dark elf player attacking and killing another dark elf player. His faction for dark elves would decrease by x amount, undead faction by y amount... While his Elves faction increase by x amount, woodland human increase by y amount..
That means this dark elf player has taken his 1st step down a path that leads to himself being KOS kill-on-sight in his native homeland, but eventally he will be welcome in elven territory to some degree.
I would imagine player namebars being a darker shade of red if they are extreme opposite your current faction, while being light green if they are of the same faction.. So 2 players from naturally opposing factions could eventually be on the same team, it depends on their relative reputation, not on some preset absolute division.
Then you have outcasts, players who attack anyone anywhere.. they will not be allowed into any town at all! I can imagine they will eventually choose a side!
So you see, its not that instancing is bad, its just kind of a cop-out solution for MMO greatness.
Truth be told there are many players who enjoy casual, instanced gameplay. I would rather be among the party of adventurers heading to that epic dragon.
Personally, I think instances should belong in current MMO's. MMO's where you have to kill x to get y etc. etc. I call these linear scripted MMO's. However, I want much more from the "next generation" MMO's that are under development. Darkfall is supposed to be kind of a next generation MMO. It's world is the biggest of all the others and there is to be little to no instancing. It also has kind of intuitive mobs, if you go to a place and kill x amounts of something, it wont be there next time, it will have moved to a new location. The game also is pretty much completely player driven meaning that players develop the content and go progress their character in their own way. It isnt linear and scripted so to speak so instancing in this type of MMO is unnecessary from my point of view. (if they deliver what they say).
Bottom line in my opinion, if you like kill x to get y than instancing is fine and probably necessary. This to me however is a now old and obsolete method of MMO progression, time for something new.
I can think of several reasons why instanced dungeons are a good thing, but few, if any, why they are bad. Someone care to explain?
I'm almost shure that things that are good for you are bad for me. I do not know any reason I like about instancing. Here are my reason why I do not like them:
1. No interaction between different parties.
Nor is there any immersion breaking interference. Non-instanced dungeons in a lot of games just end up being shopping malls, when they are supposed to be deep, dark, secret places that only a few know about, let alone dare enter.
2. You cannot help other parties.
In which case, the instance will always be a challenge, because you can't take 50 people to handle an encounter designed for 5.
3. You cannot compete other parties.
Why does every corner of an MMO have to involve competition?
4. You cannot hinder/fight other parties
Isn't this just a repeat of 3?
5. They are not Massive but just Multiplay, just consequence from points 1-4.
It's still massive, because you chose your 4+ companions from a massive number of candidates, and when you return to the main world donning your new +1,000,000 helmet, everyone will see it and go, Ooooo, Ahhhhh.
6. Not directly tied with instancing, but becasue their nature and purpose there is almost no respown. So there is just one goal: to clear entire intance. In non instanced dungeons typically there is no such term. You just clear different bosses/part of the dungeon as long as you wish.
I can't really see how this is an advantage, and every game I've ever played with instanced dungeons also has non-instanced ones, so you can do this all day if you want.
I know most peoples do not like massive features online games, but just wonder why so many games name are classified as MMO if they are just "multiplayer online", but there is almost no massive gameplay in them. Instancing is one of the main aspect of this game that ruin the massive gameplay and make it mutiplay.
As I already said even if its disatvantage to me it can be advantage for others. "when you return to the main world donning your new +1,000,000 helmet, everyone will see it and go, Ooooo, Ahhhhh" is just for brag and have nothing with massive gameplay. Instances are the multiplayer feature of the modern MMOs and when there is no massive gameplay left in the game like in WoW, it become pure multiplayer game like GW, but GW have never said they are MMO!!!
Again: most peoples do not like massive features of online games. MMOs become so popular when they start to become just multiplayer with common for everyone zone without massive gameplay in it.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
i hope that everyone who posted in here REALISES that whether something is good or bad is totally subjective? i think the op shd modify his question by adding something like "why DO YOU THINK its good or bad?"
Giving your opinion on something is totally fine.. but dont impose your own views or "truths" on everyone else..
I could see good arguments for both sides. Ultimately I think a dungeon should be designed with a certain number of players in mind when that many enter a new dungeon is instanced this could be designed as one personalised instance per group but should really be in the hands of the dungeon designer, and a really nice MMO will have options for both types of gameplay and even soloing. People might say why not just go play a non-massive game but my feeling is that I would like a variety of options to suit my mood in one persistent game world. My one exception to this is I think there should be a time limit after you pk, before you can private instance so you can't completely gank and hide from retribution.
i hope that everyone who posted in here REALISES that whether something is good or bad is totally subjective? i think the op shd modify his question by adding something like "why DO YOU THINK its good or bad?" Giving your opinion on something is totally fine.. but dont impose your own views or "truths" on everyone else..
Except when taken in context. Instances are indeed a very GOOD thing if you expect lots of people to play your game. You can't say instances are a bad thing in WOW, just because you "think" so. Its factually a very good thing, because you HAVE TO have instances. Without them, there would be lines, lag, problems, lots and lots of complaining. the dungeons can't "work" unless a specific number of people are in them. They're balanced, tuned and designed specifically for X number of players. So by instancing the dungeons, Blizzard did a very good thing. If they were persistent, they wouldn't work, so instances in WOW are in FACT good. Thinking they're bad means nothing.
Same with BGs. AV couldn't function unless it was an instance. You couldn't have 500+ people all congregating in one area and expect a playable game. CTF only works with even teams.
Instancing every zone like in Conan can be considered bad, because loads of people have complained about it and the playerbase has dropped due to that very feature. Instancing dungeons is ONLY bad for a very small % of players, which really means didly.
So by instancing the dungeons, Blizzard did a very good thing. If they were persistent, they wouldn't work, so instances in WOW are in FACT good. Thinking they're bad means nothing.
The instanced dungeons wouldn't work if they were persistent? That's your logic? If the instanced dungeons weren't there originally, there wouldn't be any instanced dungeons to even be persistent, now would there? In a persistent world, if you kill a dragon or complete something, the game system keeps track of that and doesn't necessarily reset anything. That dragon or mission is complete, and there wouldn't necessarily be a reason for anyone to venture there again.
If you are arguing that it is extremely difficult to have boring, linear quests and gear-grinding game mechanics without instanced dungeons, I might agree with you.
i hope that everyone who posted in here REALISES that whether something is good or bad is totally subjective? i think the op shd modify his question by adding something like "why DO YOU THINK its good or bad?" Giving your opinion on something is totally fine.. but dont impose your own views or "truths" on everyone else..
As the OP, and therefore the definitive expert on this thread (<<<sarcasm), I will say that I phrased the title like I did, because there seems to be a pervasive presumption in this forum that instancing of any kind is bad.
I agree that instanced world zones can suck, but to me, instancing specific dungeons enhances immersion, it doesn't reduce it.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
The game I play, Last Chaos has both free zone and instanced dungeons. There are personal dungeons for quests for those times that you feel like being alone, though once you get to a certain level you can no longer access them. The newest thing they've added is the Monster Combo. You can do this solo or in a party of up to 8 members., depending on the difficulty of the Monsters you choose to hunt. I participated in my first one last night at the highest setting (had been away from the game due to computer issues....) and the action was non stop for 20 levels of play....and I had a blast!
The point is that games like Last Chaos that offer both free range hunting AND instanced dungeons give you the best of both worlds.
The game I play, Last Chaos has both free zone and instanced dungeons. There are personal dungeons for quests for those times that you feel like being alone, though once you get to a certain level you can no longer access them. The newest thing they've added is the Monster Combo. You can do this solo or in a party of up to 8 members., depending on the difficulty of the Monsters you choose to hunt. I participated in my first one last night at the highest setting (had been away from the game due to computer issues....) and the action was non stop for 20 levels of play....and I had a blast!
The point is that games like Last Chaos that offer both free range hunting AND instanced dungeons give you the best of both worlds.
Oh, but that's not good enough, because while you're in your own personal little dungeon, other players can't gank your face. Can't you see that by not being available for other players to gank your face, you are ruining their essential MMO experience?
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Oh, but that's not good enough, because while you're in your own personal little dungeon, other players can't gank your face. Can't you see that by not being available for other players to gank your face, you are ruining their essential MMO experience?
That wouldn't be the problem. It's when I hop out of my instanced dungeon, and you hop out of yours at the same time, and we all arrive at the same spot together that immersion is ruined. Then if your party decides to kill my party it gets even worse.
And it wouldn't be your fault. The blame would lie squarely on the shoulders of the developers.
Comments
I don't mind them. Of course I lived thru the hell that was UO post trammel with 0 instances and not really a lot of dungeons. Trying to tag mobs before everyone else gets old.
For anyone who doesn't know DDO already, this is the opposite of the truth. DDO is nothing but a grindfest for extremely overpowered gear.
Again, I think that's because you make it that way, just like the players in WoW. Though I do have to admit that you do have to repeat quests quite too often, at least from what I've seen in the lower lvls. However, from what I've seen, you can get through a good part of the game without "uber" gear.
With regards to needing a large amount of players to do anything of merit, that's not true. If you've played Baldur's gate or Neverwinter Nights or even Oblivion you would note that it is small groups that take on the storyline. to that end a game like LOTRO also utilizes a small group for its quests.
As far as Guild Wars not being an MMO, I think that's semantics. You can group with a huge amount of people at your disposal, the groups are just small. And if you look at what happens in an mmo, you usually are just in your party doing whatever it is you are doing.
I can't believe that its the chance of coming upon someone else that has to define it as an mmo. So if you don't come upoin anyone else then the experience is ruined?
Though maybe it does come down to, once again, Sanbox vs Thempark mmo's, as someone mentioned.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't really give a hoot for the topic of this thread but this is clearly wrong. I don't know where your reading your Human history but as a student of Anthropology(a minor with my Computer Science degree) I can tell you that this was the norm from the dawn of man through the Middle Ages. It was especially true through the Dark Ages which is about when fantasy MMORPGs are set in roughly (Although plate armor didn't come in until the Renaissance but even movies get this wrong). Sure ganking someone might get you in trouble with the local magistrate but all you had to do was go to the next city state or kingdom and it was like it never happened. in most parts of Europe this could be as little as a 20 mile walk away.
I'll agree that fully open PvP without consequences like most PvE games have tacked on them as an afterthought through PvP servers isn't very realistic but a true PvP game that puts some kind of rule in effect to limit out and out PKing is very realistic to the time periods these games are supposed to represent.
No the peasants of the time usually didn't go around killing each other but we aren't role playing peasants now are we. We are playing what is equivalent of the dark ages warrior or Knight and killing someone for just pissing you off was commonplace for them. Especially for the Knights of the time as they were basically the law so they could kill anyone almost and no one would question it. This perfect vision we sometimes have of the Knights of old as "holier than thou crusaders for justice in gleaming plate mail" is a fairy tale at best. Knights were some of the most sadistic brutal killers in human history. Most would kill your entire family for as little as a simple insult or not having enough to pay your taxes to the local Lord.
So yes, a game that has been written with PvP at it's core is very realistic to the time periods as they do put some kind of consequences on your actions. These are usually about equivalent to the time periods in question.
Bren
I agree, when i stated open pvp in my post, i meant it along the lines of how people are asking for it, ie just random ganking in the world with no real anything.
If you were to go deeper into my post history(which i won't ask you to do). You can see how i feel the pvp game should behave.
I'll stand by my statement that how open ala lineage 2, or the like pvp doesn't work in a game.
And while i do know about those acts, they are entirely different then how pvp in mmos is, and how I was comparing it. The brutal acts of the knights were horrible, and they were basically "ganking" but they all have a higher reason to them. Be they their lords will, or a insult to them. But it was never a guy walking down the street just shanking random people not doing anything.
And yes some people do play peasants, play UO and the like people wanted to be miners etc. And people did gank them.
*Shouts*
Camp Check !!!
If an MMO is designed properly there would be absolutely no need for instances in pve. (no one can argue that they are anything but fail in pvp)
The world should be large enough, and there should be plenty of opportunity to go around. If even the smallest % of the online server population is lining up to kill 1 guy over and over.. maybe thats a sign that there should be another way to get whatever it is your getting from him? Or maybe it should be available on some other equally difficult enemy?
Smalltime quests should be short and sweet anyway, huge epic encounters should be huge and epic, again.. no one has answered this.. What is so epic about an encounter that is so common that players must line up for it? Just to get their hands on a rare l00ts? Then make the stupid item craftable as well or avalable somewhere else from an equaly difficult encounter.. damn its not rocket science.
Dont take my hiding place away! I'll have to deal with people oh NO!
Like everything else, you can argue this topic until your blue in the face.. bottom line is, you guys go buy your battle in a bottle, ill go buy my open world mmo, and well be on our seperate ways.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I think the funniest thing about this stupid post is how PvP game players act as if they only games that exist in the MMO genre are PvP games.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn*
Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth.
You're a dumb troll.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn*
Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth.
You're a dumb troll.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of people who read two words of a post and think they understand it.
Epic reading check fail. I think this counts as a critical failure. If you notice, I'm mocking the fact that he thinks that instances are something you do to stay on the "WOW-gear treadmill." Many, many, many games have done instances, before and after WoW, and it's in fact very arguable that WoW's instances are in no way special except that they've been played by lots of people (I'd argue that's the only thing special about them).
Javac seems to have some idea stuck in his head that instances are just a giant treadmill for gear, which I've frankly never seen (even in WoW). That idea is so incredibly wrong that it can only be the work of sheer trolling.
You seem to have some idea stuck in your head that I think WoW was the only MMORPG to ever do instances.
I'm not sure which is wierder.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
While the posts in this thread seem somewhat evenly divided (the majority are with open world, no instancing), it's interesting to see a strange disparity in the camp balance.
1) Those who dislike instancing often make it clear that "we don't care what you do," the games we like to play shouldn't be instanced.
2) Those who want instancing don't do the equivalent. They tend to argue that any game that is made for the first camp should appeal to them, and should have instances. And no one seems to be arguing for a MMO that is entirely instanced for small group play (which wouldn't really be an MMO).
I think it shows that the camps are not really equal. There are good guys and bad guys when it comes to MMO philosophy. The bad ones want to leach off the products marketed to the good ones.
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn*
Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth.
You're a dumb troll.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of people who read two words of a post and think they understand it.
Epic reading check fail. I think this counts as a critical failure. If you notice, I'm mocking the fact that he thinks that instances are something you do to stay on the "WOW-gear treadmill." Many, many, many games have done instances, before and after WoW, and it's in fact very arguable that WoW's instances are in no way special except that they've been played by lots of people (I'd argue that's the only thing special about them).
Javac seems to have some idea stuck in his head that instances are just a giant treadmill for gear, which I've frankly never seen (even in WoW). That idea is so incredibly wrong that it can only be the work of sheer trolling.
You seem to have some idea stuck in your head that I think WoW was the only MMORPG to ever do instances.
I'm not sure which is wierder.
O'Rly?
"I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons."
Critical Failure? Please master the English language before writing incredibly vague and misguiding statements and then calling others failures for taking them literally.
Or stop failing at being witty?
Cut-scenes belong in single-player games, not an MMO, which is defined by its very name to be massively multiplayer. Sadly WOW has generally redefined this name to massively mindless, because that's what 95% of the game requires: mindless repetition with little/no variation. Instances are the very definition of a repetitive, predictable experience -- it's exactly the same every time, it only varies according to how good/bad your group-mates are.
Yes, instances can sometimes be fun. But 95% of the time, it's a mindless chore you're only doing to stay on the WOW-gear treadmill, hoping for your 5% drop chance item to drop. From the hindsight of an ex-WOW player it's extremely sad what WOW has done to the genre; sadder still that WOW-bots who are still addicted to WOW just can't see how much of their lives are being wasted chasing a carrot you can never catch.
*Yawn*
Yes, more WoW hate. Incredible. I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons. I'm also amazed at your vast psychic powers that can instantly grasp the exact motivations of every one of the millions of MMO players on earth.
You're a dumb troll.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of WoW fanbois on the internet.
EverQuest: Lost Dungeons of Norrath was an entire expansion of just instanced content, dungeons to be exact, before WoW.
EverQuest: Gates of Discord was before WoW, IIRC, and utilized instances for most of hte raid zones in that expansion.
I think WoW was release after EverQuest: Omens of War, which also utilized instances for raid zones and some dungeons.
Before the release of WoW, SOE went back and revamped older raid zones to be instanced. Plane of Time, for example.
I'm appalled by the sheer ignorance of people who read two words of a post and think they understand it.
Epic reading check fail. I think this counts as a critical failure. If you notice, I'm mocking the fact that he thinks that instances are something you do to stay on the "WOW-gear treadmill." Many, many, many games have done instances, before and after WoW, and it's in fact very arguable that WoW's instances are in no way special except that they've been played by lots of people (I'd argue that's the only thing special about them).
Javac seems to have some idea stuck in his head that instances are just a giant treadmill for gear, which I've frankly never seen (even in WoW). That idea is so incredibly wrong that it can only be the work of sheer trolling.
You seem to have some idea stuck in your head that I think WoW was the only MMORPG to ever do instances.
I'm not sure which is wierder.
O'Rly?
"I'm glad no one before or since WoW has done instanced dungeons."
Critical Failure? Please master the English language before writing incredibly vague and misguiding statements and then calling others failures for taking them literally.
Or stop failing at being witty?
Ooookay....
*backs away slowly*
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
I think the funniest thing about this stupid post is how PvP game players act as if they only games that exist in the MMO genre are PvP games.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the word "facetious".
I love instancing. Keeps the horrible memories of EQ away. Instancing removes most of the annoyance of dealing with casaulties of puberty. Downside is the economy can be damaged and farmers have a field day but it is still a small price to pay. I understand the people want noninstanced so if a dragon dies it means something but lets face it the good palces would be camped by basement dwellers and anyone with a job or a social life would never be able to do anything but whack fippy running into Qeynos.
I'm almost shure that things that are good for you are bad for me. I do not know any reason I like about instancing. Here are my reason why I do not like them:
1. No interaction between different parties.
Nor is there any immersion breaking interference. Non-instanced dungeons in a lot of games just end up being shopping malls, when they are supposed to be deep, dark, secret places that only a few know about, let alone dare enter.
2. You cannot help other parties.
In which case, the instance will always be a challenge, because you can't take 50 people to handle an encounter designed for 5.
3. You cannot compete other parties.
Why does every corner of an MMO have to involve competition?
4. You cannot hinder/fight other parties
Isn't this just a repeat of 3?
5. They are not Massive but just Multiplay, just consequence from points 1-4.
It's still massive, because you chose your 4+ companions from a massive number of candidates, and when you return to the main world donning your new +1,000,000 helmet, everyone will see it and go, Ooooo, Ahhhhh.
6. Not directly tied with instancing, but becasue their nature and purpose there is almost no respown. So there is just one goal: to clear entire intance. In non instanced dungeons typically there is no such term. You just clear different bosses/part of the dungeon as long as you wish.
I can't really see how this is an advantage, and every game I've ever played with instanced dungeons also has non-instanced ones, so you can do this all day if you want.
I know most peoples do not like massive features online games, but just wonder why so many games name are classified as MMO if they are just "multiplayer online", but there is almost no massive gameplay in them. Instancing is one of the main aspect of this game that ruin the massive gameplay and make it mutiplay.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Well they still havent gotten it right yet.. but technology will allow for that fantastic game someday.
Imagine a powerfull epic dragon.. that is hard enough just getting to the front door of his lair. Yea, thats right, I mean you cant group teleport to his doorstep ok? Instead your group marches out from one of your factions outposts, all the while they are vulnerable to other players, and whatever dangers might be on the way.
Then you gotta take on all of his kin along the way, and by now they (the dragons) know your party is coming and have sent their own attack groups.. all of this and you still arent even at the entrance to this epic dragons lair. Now you imagine the rest.
As far as gankers.. why arent there players factions I wonder? Imagine 3 main player factions, we'll say Alpha, Beta, and Delta. now alpha consists of elves, high elves, woodland humans etc, and Beta consists of dark elves, undead etc..
Now imagine a dark elf player attacking and killing another dark elf player. His faction for dark elves would decrease by x amount, undead faction by y amount... While his Elves faction increase by x amount, woodland human increase by y amount..
That means this dark elf player has taken his 1st step down a path that leads to himself being KOS kill-on-sight in his native homeland, but eventally he will be welcome in elven territory to some degree.
I would imagine player namebars being a darker shade of red if they are extreme opposite your current faction, while being light green if they are of the same faction.. So 2 players from naturally opposing factions could eventually be on the same team, it depends on their relative reputation, not on some preset absolute division.
Then you have outcasts, players who attack anyone anywhere.. they will not be allowed into any town at all! I can imagine they will eventually choose a side!
So you see, its not that instancing is bad, its just kind of a cop-out solution for MMO greatness.
Truth be told there are many players who enjoy casual, instanced gameplay. I would rather be among the party of adventurers heading to that epic dragon.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
Personally, I think instances should belong in current MMO's. MMO's where you have to kill x to get y etc. etc. I call these linear scripted MMO's. However, I want much more from the "next generation" MMO's that are under development. Darkfall is supposed to be kind of a next generation MMO. It's world is the biggest of all the others and there is to be little to no instancing. It also has kind of intuitive mobs, if you go to a place and kill x amounts of something, it wont be there next time, it will have moved to a new location. The game also is pretty much completely player driven meaning that players develop the content and go progress their character in their own way. It isnt linear and scripted so to speak so instancing in this type of MMO is unnecessary from my point of view. (if they deliver what they say).
Bottom line in my opinion, if you like kill x to get y than instancing is fine and probably necessary. This to me however is a now old and obsolete method of MMO progression, time for something new.
I'm almost shure that things that are good for you are bad for me. I do not know any reason I like about instancing. Here are my reason why I do not like them:
1. No interaction between different parties.
Nor is there any immersion breaking interference. Non-instanced dungeons in a lot of games just end up being shopping malls, when they are supposed to be deep, dark, secret places that only a few know about, let alone dare enter.
2. You cannot help other parties.
In which case, the instance will always be a challenge, because you can't take 50 people to handle an encounter designed for 5.
3. You cannot compete other parties.
Why does every corner of an MMO have to involve competition?
4. You cannot hinder/fight other parties
Isn't this just a repeat of 3?
5. They are not Massive but just Multiplay, just consequence from points 1-4.
It's still massive, because you chose your 4+ companions from a massive number of candidates, and when you return to the main world donning your new +1,000,000 helmet, everyone will see it and go, Ooooo, Ahhhhh.
6. Not directly tied with instancing, but becasue their nature and purpose there is almost no respown. So there is just one goal: to clear entire intance. In non instanced dungeons typically there is no such term. You just clear different bosses/part of the dungeon as long as you wish.
I can't really see how this is an advantage, and every game I've ever played with instanced dungeons also has non-instanced ones, so you can do this all day if you want.
I know most peoples do not like massive features online games, but just wonder why so many games name are classified as MMO if they are just "multiplayer online", but there is almost no massive gameplay in them. Instancing is one of the main aspect of this game that ruin the massive gameplay and make it mutiplay.
As I already said even if its disatvantage to me it can be advantage for others. "when you return to the main world donning your new +1,000,000 helmet, everyone will see it and go, Ooooo, Ahhhhh" is just for brag and have nothing with massive gameplay. Instances are the multiplayer feature of the modern MMOs and when there is no massive gameplay left in the game like in WoW, it become pure multiplayer game like GW, but GW have never said they are MMO!!!
Again: most peoples do not like massive features of online games. MMOs become so popular when they start to become just multiplayer with common for everyone zone without massive gameplay in it.
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
i hope that everyone who posted in here REALISES that whether something is good or bad is totally subjective? i think the op shd modify his question by adding something like "why DO YOU THINK its good or bad?"
Giving your opinion on something is totally fine.. but dont impose your own views or "truths" on everyone else..
I could see good arguments for both sides. Ultimately I think a dungeon should be designed with a certain number of players in mind when that many enter a new dungeon is instanced this could be designed as one personalised instance per group but should really be in the hands of the dungeon designer, and a really nice MMO will have options for both types of gameplay and even soloing. People might say why not just go play a non-massive game but my feeling is that I would like a variety of options to suit my mood in one persistent game world. My one exception to this is I think there should be a time limit after you pk, before you can private instance so you can't completely gank and hide from retribution.
my sketchbook
Except when taken in context. Instances are indeed a very GOOD thing if you expect lots of people to play your game. You can't say instances are a bad thing in WOW, just because you "think" so. Its factually a very good thing, because you HAVE TO have instances. Without them, there would be lines, lag, problems, lots and lots of complaining. the dungeons can't "work" unless a specific number of people are in them. They're balanced, tuned and designed specifically for X number of players. So by instancing the dungeons, Blizzard did a very good thing. If they were persistent, they wouldn't work, so instances in WOW are in FACT good. Thinking they're bad means nothing.
Same with BGs. AV couldn't function unless it was an instance. You couldn't have 500+ people all congregating in one area and expect a playable game. CTF only works with even teams.
Instancing every zone like in Conan can be considered bad, because loads of people have complained about it and the playerbase has dropped due to that very feature. Instancing dungeons is ONLY bad for a very small % of players, which really means didly.
The instanced dungeons wouldn't work if they were persistent? That's your logic? If the instanced dungeons weren't there originally, there wouldn't be any instanced dungeons to even be persistent, now would there? In a persistent world, if you kill a dragon or complete something, the game system keeps track of that and doesn't necessarily reset anything. That dragon or mission is complete, and there wouldn't necessarily be a reason for anyone to venture there again.
If you are arguing that it is extremely difficult to have boring, linear quests and gear-grinding game mechanics without instanced dungeons, I might agree with you.
As the OP, and therefore the definitive expert on this thread (<<<sarcasm), I will say that I phrased the title like I did, because there seems to be a pervasive presumption in this forum that instancing of any kind is bad.
I agree that instanced world zones can suck, but to me, instancing specific dungeons enhances immersion, it doesn't reduce it.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
The game I play, Last Chaos has both free zone and instanced dungeons. There are personal dungeons for quests for those times that you feel like being alone, though once you get to a certain level you can no longer access them. The newest thing they've added is the Monster Combo. You can do this solo or in a party of up to 8 members., depending on the difficulty of the Monsters you choose to hunt. I participated in my first one last night at the highest setting (had been away from the game due to computer issues....
) and the action was non stop for 20 levels of play....and I had a blast!
The point is that games like Last Chaos
that offer both free range hunting AND instanced dungeons give you the best of both worlds.
Go to http://lastchaos.aeriagames.com to find out more about this fun game!
Oh, but that's not good enough, because while you're in your own personal little dungeon, other players can't gank your face. Can't you see that by not being available for other players to gank your face, you are ruining their essential MMO experience?
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
That wouldn't be the problem. It's when I hop out of my instanced dungeon, and you hop out of yours at the same time, and we all arrive at the same spot together that immersion is ruined. Then if your party decides to kill my party it gets even worse.
And it wouldn't be your fault. The blame would lie squarely on the shoulders of the developers.