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RvR battles. Big problem for me!
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
First off, please don't jump all over me. I'll try my best to word this without starting an argument. And this maybe ONLY my problem, as I may be playing to much in the last few days.
RvR battles seem to always turn out the same ( no variety ). I played both sides of the fence. In preview weekend I played a Shadow Warrior to level 11 ( ranged ), and now a Black Orc to level 13 ( tank ).
Because of casters and archers, it seems as if few rush the line. It's them and us and it always comes down to a stalemate until one side or the other decides to quit. If a player dies he has a choice to run back or quit. This just goes on and on until the numbers are off balance.
It's not Warhammer devs. or the players fault, HOWEVER if most find RvR battles boring, then I have a few ideas.
- Shorter casting and archer distance.
- Voice chat for War bands. No one is using chat to take charge, It's not the players fault because simple chat has no power, and most don't see it anyway. Guild's using Ventrilo and it works great, I know my guild used it.
I would like to stress that I maybe alone with this problem, but RvR is half of what the game is about. I feel very bad right now as I may not purchase Warhammer.
What does everyone else think ?
Comments
Well actually when i played a Zealot i noticed different, i would cast HOTS on melee dps to assure them i was going to heal and then they would rush the line. It really depends if there is healer's or not when it comes to this topic. If there isn't there is not alot of people that just want to kamikaze over and over.
As far as shorter distances it don't really matter because healers can cast just as far as any given dps distance spell/shot It just depends on the healers healing the melee thats all.
Another thing to remember is on the outsides of RVR zones there is high level npc's that will 1 shot you...so if your faction or their faction has you pushed back that far...the opposing faction is not gonna run in to get 1 shotted.
Fight over one of these, then make your decision.
After those you still have the main cities.
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Good point Syxx, but without Voice chat healers don't have to feel accountable for not doing their job.
I have one more idea :
Have a 5 min. timer to re-enter RvR. I'm sure the devs. had thought of this as it may piss people off, but it would make people think twice in their actions. Also allow the sides to be off balance to change the battle ( like real war)
Well what you are talking about is Zerg battles, and they will always feel the same because there are so many involved. Try making a single group of 6 and playing tactically, avoid the zerg, and capture objectives. To me that is where RvR shines. Zerg battles are only a little fun to me, but when I get into small skirmishes that is where the game really shines.
Also Zerg's seem to only take place in one area of the Empire vs. Chaos RvR areas, and it is always a straight line between the spawns. Easy to avoid. Leave this area and go to either other pairing and you have a lot more small skirmish warfare and it is way more fun in my opinion. Don't join the mindless Zerg!
People need to talk. I have no clue why noone uses scenario chat even when you say "use /sc to chat", no one listens.
Also the range on archers and casters is sometimes insane. If you start the ability before they leave your max range, you will still seem to fire off the shot despite them reaching way out of your maximum range by the time the cast ends.
I've seen a few stalemates but thankfully there is a way to break them.
I play a Swordmaster (offensive tank fyi) and the tactic is to get a healer or two to keep me alive as long as possible. What you and your healers do is just flank the bastards. I charge into the thickest mass of enemy healers from their usually unprotected side trying to create as much havoc as possible, snaring people left and right. This usually makes everybody freak out, randomly targeting all over the place, tanks turn their backs to our main force at which point the main attack begins. That's when I use flee and try to survive (which I usually fail to do).
If you don't mind sacrificing yourself occasionally for the benefit of the Realm this is the way to break those standoffs.
To add: Death penalties are unfair to players playing heroically, not to mention tanks in general. IMO they should be removed just like in scenarios.
Great idea ProfRed, you just game me new hope for fun,
If so can you give me an example of how you find a group for this. Just advertising in LFG will not give the option for specific objectives, so I would have to guess you wold need to use shout in a War Camp ?
How far does "shout" and "say " cover ?
Well don't give up just yet, surprisingly the devs are listening to suggestions from the surveys, so theres a chance that things will be different at launch. I would like to see a bonus added for the factions though. If you have noticed the Destruction seem to outnumber the Order, there should be something to offset that in RvR at least.
I did noticed on Monday when I played if I went into a RvR zone at a certain high level I turned into a "Chicken", but they may of taken that away as that was a question asked on a survey. Perhaps they could make a lower level person worth "0" points to a higher level player, would make no sense to kill them other than for pleasure. hehe.
I noticed that last preview weekend I was in they had no level cap on player entering RvR or PvP and this past weekend preview they had a level cap. However, I now noticed they changed that again because here I am at lvl 7 fighting against lvl 11s.
The level cap is good and bad. The good is you can play with your friends that may be higher or lower level than you and they higher levels if you can kill em seem to yield more Renoun Points. The bad is alot of the solo playing lower levels get out there hoping to score some kills and points and before they know it they are in melee combat with two guys 3 or 4 levels higher than them and they get slaughtered.
For me what if boils down to is Teamwork, if people learned to play as a team and stick together in groups and not run off to try to be the Hero or try to get bragging rights for having the most kills, then it wouldn't matter about the level so much, but what ends up happening is people get tired of getting killed over and over by a guy 3 or 4 levels above them.
I do agree with chat for the warbands, I think that is a great ideal. Only downside is most folks are in guilds and they are on their own Teamspeak or Vent server.
I would say hang in there and don't give up yet. The dev's are listening and they do care about their customers, all of my petitions have been answered and to my satisfaction I might add.
I think it's just early days yet, people are still figuring out what buttons to bash in certain circumstances so that chat is being neglected somewhat in PvP.
You would see the occasional standoff in DAoC most commonly when you were in a zerg of unguilded players, or in a lower level battleground. The standoff would usually be broken when a number of stealthers would pop behind the other side triggering a bit of panic at which point one side would charge in or break away. As someone previously mentioned flanking and/or just initializing the charge (often at the cost of your own life) would bring the two sides into close combat.
Playing: Nothing
Retired: Runescape, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, Guild Wars, WoW, EVE, Battleground Europe, LOTRO, AoC, WAR.
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I think you'll find people communicating more after release when it's 'for real', right now in beta everything will be wiped soon so nothing matters as far as your character goes.
I usually look for open parties that are maxed out at 6 people. The 24 ones are Zerg parties and a lot of people just sit there and mooch off the 'Kill x Enemy Players' quest. Then once you get in a party of 6 talk to them and get them to organize. Usually i've found that about 80% of the time they are already grouping up, but sometimes they just join in the Zerg. If they aren't playing together then leave and start a new Open Party. When I make my own I shout and let people know I am making a tactical party, or strategic party, or whatever. Usually I can fill it up in a matter of minutes. Then we go after objectives. Zerg's ignore objectives so you can capture a whole zone even with a Zerg pushing you up against your spawn since there are multiple entrances. Once an entire zone is captured almost always the parties I was in would move on to another pairing and capture that zone. The most fun I had was a 4 hour party with the same 6 people and we captured all objectives for all pairings. It was ridiculously fun.
Zerg behaviors:
a) Always in Order vs. Chaos RvR.
b) Always a straight line between spawns (T1 From 1 spawn through Festenplatz(?) to the other spawn).
c) No matter how much you taunt them only a few will break off and your party can kill them. Even if they ask for help the Zerg won't come.
d) Zergs ignore objectives almost always, and if they actually go for one they leave the rest open.
All that being said another fun thing to do is get behind the zerg with a group of 6 and coordinate just a little. One time we got behind them and decided to swarm on the closest person, and continue until we all died. The 6 of us took out like 14-15 people before our healers died and then we died soon after. It was a blast though.
It is a good way to have group tactics without being in a guild.
Very Very cool Profred, and will do !
I'll give both "newly formed" and "already formed" groups a good honest shot.
I'll add to your idea, and to start chatting like crazy to get there attention. I'll do some variation until I find a good niche that works.
But I must say that they better add voice chat and fast, as many will find this game boring soon after, Most quit MMO's and could never put their finger on what caused them to quit !
Thanks
What I found is in RVR theres always two sides with a no mans land in the middle and melee can't be effective even with healers because they get owned by all the ranged before they even get close. So you have these two giant forces of ranged classes with a giant gap in the middle and the battlefront moving back and forth constantly. For some reason this always happens in waves like all of a sudden we'd get a rush of people and push them back and then they'd get a rush of people and push us back. Theres no skill involved in RVR it's just about who has the most ranged and healers.
This is te fault of the shitty combat.
That is what i was trying to say Papa, You just explained it better, I just hope ProfRed's Idea works for me as to form my own groups, I'm dieing to try it but the servers are down.
I think you are trying to play RvR like you would play WoW (or other MMORPG) PvP.
These are two different animals. RvR takes a whole different set of tactics and planning than was needed in WoW (or other MMORPG) .
Don't get me wrong here. Don't know if WoW was the previous game. Nor am I saying WoW was bad in any way. Just saying that old PvP tactics and methods are not going to work here.
Good Hunting
One of the issues is the rock/paper/scissor balance makes it hard for some classes to function in a RVR setting.
Most large-scale PVP matches play out with a main "front" - two sides pushing against each other attempting to move forward. Each team has its front lines, and a large gap between the two. The gap exists because of ranged classes. If one person wanders too far into the gap he's likely to take a huge amount of fire from enemy ranged volleys.
So, then, with that in mind, let's look at the archetypes:
Healers - Stay in back ranks (except disciples and warrior priests) and heal anything they can reach, from relative safety. Their class balance is in preserving themselves and their teammates for as long as possible.
Rangers - Casters, Archers, and Marksmen that hold their front line in place, shooting down enemy advances. Their class balance is in stopping lighter armored skirmishers, the melee DPS guys that have to close distance to be useful.
Tanks - Heavily armored, lower damaged melee classes. These guys are in charge of advancing their front line. As they move forward, soak damage, and disrupt the enemy's front line, this allows their own healers and rangers to advance behind them, shifting the battlefront favorably for their team. Their class balance is soaking a lot of punishment and snaring and helping cut apart anything they can get in arm's reach.
Notice how I left one archetype out?
Melee DPS has little place on the battlefront, not intentionally but simply by the way combat works. It was just like this in LOTRO's ettenmoors. Champions really really sucked during an open confrontation because they simply couldn't survive crossing the battlefront on their own. A melee DPS class's instinct is to play like you play in PVE: Get in close and do as much damage as possible. But with the way frontlines work in PVP that's not an option, the DPS classes have to hang back and protect the Rangers and Healers, or advance with or after the tanks.
This is what creates the stalemate effect, the only people that can effectively bridge the gap are tanks, and even they require healers to succeed. Melee DPS, even when well healed, can't break enemy rank unless they just grossly outnumber them.
Now, in most MMOs, what is typically the most-played archetype? Melee DPS.
I think it can be like what are saying OP.
Tier one is a boring. Things gets better in tier 2 with keeps.
And yes many sides don't rush, but they could. I think once big guilds start to get there act together we will see more action.
Their will never be Warband organization with out Voice chat, the more I think about it, the more this game needs voice chat and NOW !.
When the servers come up, I will try do my best to organize small groups together, but They have to fix this game with voice chat. After all Warhammer's motto is " war ".
Vintrilo is not the answer because you can only have one IP address at a time, thats all great for guilds, but you have to often work with others outside your guild.
Voice Chat Now !!!!!!!
I agree. VC is nice and it helps keeps encounters much more organized. I loved VC in LOTRO. Works great for PUGs.
Agree. Usually I'm against ingame voice chat because it kinda forces itself on players, but in this game it should be the default option.
Communication is everything in RvR. My main gripe with WAR's UI right now is the lack of easy and intuitive ways to access global chat channels. IMO WAR is sorely in need of a /defense channel or something like it. Hope it'll get implemented come release.
Well it's not looking good for me in buying Warhammer, I'm trying to get people togeather but it's just one big free for all without Voice
If your not opposed to it, just join a good guild. My guild almost always plays together and we always use vent. Then it's not a problem, plus you get to know each other very well and makes it that much better.
Instead of twinks steam rolling you, there will be guilds with vent steam rolling you.
VC would be great but it will come at a cost if put in game. I loved it in LOTRO also but it can cause lag issues. So I doubt they will put it in anytime soon if it is going to degrade FPS or general play for large group. Vent or TS is the only way to go right now and there are enough guilds with it these days that it should not be a problem hooking up with one that do have it.
Agree. Usually I'm against ingame voice chat because it kinda forces itself on players, but in this game it should be the default option.
Communication is everything in RvR. My main gripe with WAR's UI right now is the lack of easy and intuitive ways to access global chat channels. IMO WAR is sorely in need of a /defense channel or something like it. Hope it'll get implemented come release.
With or without in-game voice chat or vent, communication is key to making RVR more strategic, tactical and interesting. Back in the early days of DAOC people typed mostly and although it wasn't the best method, we managed.
After spending a year in LOTRO with their chat system, I find the one here needlessly cumbersome... sure, eventualy, people will get used to which chat channel they should be using, but in LOTRO whenever you entere a new zone or even subzone, you auto-join the OOC, trade and advice channels for those zones...they should be able to do the same here.
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