Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
what REAL PvP looks like (AoC vs WAR)
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Lolwut? What "PvP master" would take graphics over gameplay? -_-
the pvp masters who are used to FPS's while sitting in their parents basement all the while shouting "BOOM, headshot" when they 1 shot kill some other player....
WAR is a well made game I'll give you that. The tanking collision detection is a great feature as well, someone should have come up with that long ago. Most of those other features are available in other games such as guild wars however, which I feel WAR is a glorified less instanced version of.
As for the 3 second attacks, certain classes have such an attack speed. Whether they are auto attacking or not each skill will take that long to swing or cast. That's your attack speed regardless of auto attack or skills being used.
However one must also acknowledge the bad with the good. I only played WAR for a week, and already got bored. Which definitely isn't a good thing to me. Considering endgame is basically the same as early game, with a few extra tweaks. I don't see myself purchasing warhammer.
I've wasted enough money on MMO's in the last few years, I'm done with going from game to game looking for something I will never find. Perfection is nonexistent in gaming, why should I play WAR when I just bought AOC a few months back and have fun playing it?
That's an easily answered question for me, I have no reason to 'especially' considering I got bored of running into a zerg over and over again in only a week.
That's WAR's biggest problem IMO, lack of individual importance on a battlefield. I really enjoy random 1v1 encounters or small (open world) 4v4 battles etc... This is something WAR really doesn't offer, it actually pretty much discourages it considering classes aren't balanced to be equal to each other on an individual level.
I hope you guys who were burnt by AOC and FC enjoy WAR, I hope it offers you years of entertainment. I see a lot for people to enjoy about it, it simply isn't my cup of pvp flavored tea.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I dont think anyone should post things about war in the aoc forum. I like war, and I dont like conan but some people are opposite and its there choice, just let them play what they want.
Its just because the people advertising warhammer's pvp were dissapointed by aoc and are exited about war's pvp so much they want to share it and let others have the same exitement by experiencing it themselves before juding it because its completely different from other mmorpgs that offer pvp.
In open beta i often enough saw comments of players that this was the best fun they ever had. They were in an rvr zone, so not a scenario, where it was about 50 or 75 vs 50 or 75. No keeps yet even in tier 1.
Keeps though smaller show up in tier 2 and in tier 3 they become huge.
The true difference between warhammer pvp and aoc or any other pvp game for that matter is fighting for your side. Its not some random gank fest like most pvp games are. Its one for all and all for one and for this there will be alliances born and sieges taking place with huge battles at which 100 -150 vs 100-150 will be a common thing.
It all depends on what you like. If you like just small fights vs small fights with no other purpose besides you killing other players then fine.
I like it more complex, i like warhammer pvp, like daoc used to be and also made by mythic, where you pvp for a common purpose and pvp sieges are really sieges where more and more people come to your aid to help out take that keep while the other side defends it with all their power. This is not a siege like the instanced 48 vs 48 in aoc. Its completely different.
A siege in warhammer, as in daoc, can take days if the fight is big enough. The day when you had to log out it was still going on and the next day after work when you log in it might still be going on. Epic scale realm vs realm fights is what warhammer is about.
Also you must not forget that warhammer's skills are all tailored for pvp, not pve. The skills that take 3 sec are skills like big ass nukes that do loads of damage or big heals which require you to not take any damage or the spell will fail. There's many instant cast skills with no cooldown, there's many skills that you can execute while being on the run. All classes have their role defined based on pvp, not pve.
Autoattack is not what you rely on in warhammer unlike other mmorpgs. Warhammer is about using the skills which is why for certain classes like the white lion its alot of side and back skills since thats the white lion his role and where his dps will shine. His purpose is not to stand and tank.For this each class gets many many skills . Masteries to refine your playstyle, tactics to refine your playstyle, morale skills to further refine your playstyle. On top of that you have 80 renown levels which each give points to further enhance your playstyle with pvp skills. Its endless finetuning your class the way you like to play it.
About graphics. Well i do think warhammer really looks great. Im thankful that mythic choses quality over quantity. It shows they take their product very very serious which obviously funcom does not.I think the game looks really pretty and stil i dont notice any lag, yet with 75 vs 75 in tier 1.
Thats why the aoc sieges were cut down to 48vs48. Hardly epic coz of the demanding graphics. In aoc you will never ever see huge battles like warhammer offers you.
Also the game is extremely polished already on retail.
Don't Capital sieges in WAR have a player cap and arent they instanced as well?
---------------------------------------
Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink
There's a slight difference between the PVP in DAOC and the PVP in war. I agree they both are incorporating the same one for all and the realm approach. Yet in daoc it seemed to be a lot less linear in terms of open world encounters. By that I mean in the frontier regions.
They did the same pve in a pvp environment design, yet in WAR its seems so uninspiring with a total lack of danger (if a game can give the illusion of danger). Like I said before I see a lot for people to enjoy in wars game play. It just seems to zerg oriented for my taste, which IMO leads to a lack of strategic options. It becomes about numbers not cordination.
I don't enjoy open PVP rulesets because I simply get off on killing other players. I like it for the simple idea there is danger every where you go, even to the degree there are people you have no chance to defeat, you're only victory comes from escaping and surviving, that's strategy to me. Being able to prey on other players as well, as a ranger I love to set up a trap on a brigde, wait for someone to come along and catch them by surprise.
There are different levels of strategy to every type of PVP out there. In daoc it boiled down to rallying as many people as you could to come to the defence of a keep, or to attack the enemies. In war the same types of strategy come into play. In aoc it's more of a fight for survival while being surrounded by wolves, waiting to attack and stalking you until they see a weakness. Like you said if you like either one it's fine. Just don't assume there is no strategy involved in either type.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
well put reg.
warhammer was designed from the ground up for pvp. AoC was not, and it wasnt even tested for pvp prior to launch.
There is also open pvp servers in warhammer, meaning all areas are open to pvp.
Zerging in warhammer is a bad idea, with collision detection, it creates mass chaos for your team to run through causing your defeat.
Capital sieges are instanced, but only so that low levels and people who do not want to participate in them. Capital sieges are also split into different zones also for the battle, the battle will rage in multiple.
I believe there also is a player cap per instance (48x48?). So basicly its the same setup as sieges in AOC. The difference is that there are more simultanious instances for the same city.
---------------------------------------
Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they all stink
The zerg I'm referring to is mass amounts of people, which you're really not going to avoid in WAR, just like DAOC. PVP in these games is objective based bringing everyone to a centralized battle. That's great for what it is and if that's what you're seeking. However, you also can't avoid rushing the zerg so to speak, otherwise you end up with a chinese stand off. Which completely negates the purpose of the design.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
talk about misinformed.
there are multiple keeps to be faught over, multiple public quests that put you against the enemy.
There is nothing centralized about the pvp here. there are 3 tier 4 keeps. You cant just zerg 1 of them, or you leave the others open to be taken.
That's the centralizing I'm refering to, maybe you are misunderstanding what I'm referring to when I say centralizing?
I know exactly what Warhammer is trying to do here, which I think is a good design, again it's not what I'm looking for.
Either way it comes down to who brings the greater force to a keep, or a contested area. Most PVE centralizes you in these different locations. Guiding you to the battle, that again is an excellent design. The point also must be stressed, this is linear PVP at it's finest. Linearity is a deign choice to centralize players in areas, which is a sound approach to game design. It simply isn't what everyone wants out of their game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well i do agree with malickie here. Daoc offered awesome stuff and variety that unfortunately warhammer wont. Like destructable walls for instance. A simple thing like a hole in a wall meant you had to guard the keep for future keep take attempts, at least till the hole was fixed
.
Also stuff like the huge pvp zone , the frontiers, which offered loads of variety of spots where war would be present. Loads of keeps and loads of towers where even a handful of players could hold off 30 of the other realm. Exiting times for sure and the best times were where the oposite realm, or one of the 2, would slowly but surely take over your map when every day you'd see them having taken another keep.
Unfortunately we wont see the above in war. I wish though.
The other side is, warhammer is streamlined. Often enough you'd wander around in the frontiers and there were no cool battles to be had. As a solo player you'd often be screwed, ganked by stealth and groups looking for other groups to fight against.
Or classes who had such powerful skills, to that the rr abilities/skills added they could fend off a zerg with a full group.
Ofcourse i miss those days and would love to do it all over again
.
Warhammer is way more streamlined to though less complex then daoc was offer constant action no matter where you go and way more flexibility in class design. Also its way less dependend on class skills but way more dependend on group skills. No more single class killing off a whole group like a sorc with mezz lol. All that crazy over the top, however fun they were, is gone in warhammer and makes the field way more even.
Agreed though more variety will be needed at the top tier in warhammer and hopefully mythic will provide this. They will need to.
But warhammer really shows me that mythic is one of the best if not the best mmorpg designer company. They are on par with blizzard for that matter. They truely deliver a quality product with loads of awesome content. I mean check out darkness falls in daoc, a pvp dungeon so big it must be one of the biggest in mmorpg history
? And definately was the coolest.
Or check the expansions mythic delivered with daoc, so full of content it was insane. For the content they are able to deliver alone im already looking forward to see how they expand on the game. I've never seen as much content as mythic gives in an expansion. How good they are at it shows in this game which has been in development for what, 3.5 years ? There's other companies that develop a game for 5 years, cough aoc, and dont even have half the content and not even near the polish mythic delivers on launch.
What's also important is keep raids. They need to enable it so keep raids will be possible. This is what was one of the most exiting things of daoc where alliances in secret would organize keepraids and often enough would perfectly execute this.
Imagine 100 people going through rvr zones, in secret, in an organized raid aiming for a keep, or several keeps at the same time to take them over and defend them. Now this is awesome ! I hope warhammer offers this.
The other side is that since the travel time isnt nearly as big as it was in the frontiers in daoc good organized allianced raids can really do quick strikes so you always need to be on your guard
. They can organize in pve and then launch the attack from a warcamp. This will happen alot im sure and will be exiting to see how the oposite alliances, and the realm itself, will react to this 
. Alarms will sound across the realm and people will rush for defense.
Oh yeah and lets not forget a growing city which raises in lvl and opens up new dungeons and quests and whatever more. And ofcoures living guilds for which you gain ranks which again opens up stuff like pvp banners, tactic slots, roster, cape guild emblems and a shitload of other things.
Its all about pvp in warhammer. Not to say there's no pve, there's a shitload of pve with hidden lairs in each zone, you have to find those, hidden epic quests and other events and opening up of new stuff which you can accidentally trigger by comming for instance across a cool encounter which only spawns during certain hours etc etc. The tome of knowledge alone is a whole game in itself.
The main capitals like altdorf and inevitable city, which is chaos, do have seperated battles yes which take place for each raid in a seperate part of town.
The purposes for this is first of space and lag. Itll be very hard for a huge town like those 2 towns to not lag and at the same time have battles raging of 300+ people in the same place. Not to mention the space needed.
The cities are made like cities with more space here and there where the battles will take place which opens up new areas to fight in.
The capital cities are hugeeeee. Biggest town's you ever saw in any mmorpgs. They grow too and have 5 lvls to reach. Each lvl opening up new content. There's even statues of the top 11 players with best renown which are displayed in the capital cities and the other side can destroy , unlocking cool new tome titles while doing this, if they manage to assault and sack the city.
For the side that manages to sack the city, after they take several fortresses first which are hugeeeeeeeee, they open up all content which was before for the oposite realm.
Anyway seeing the size of these towns itll be really hard to have full wars going on and not lag and also have the space for the battles, seeing there's also collision detection in warhammer. The cities need to look like cities so this means small streets and big markets etc etc.
Also having the city assaulted from several sides, upfront designated spaces, kinda gives the idea of everyone assaulting it instead of everyone just entering it through the main entrance and all going the same way.
So yeah in a way it might sound dissapointing on the other hand its very understandable. Aoc has towns where 10 people already make you lag beyond believe, let along 300+ people and these towns are very small compared to the warhammer towns which not only look big but also feel alive coz of all the noise/sounds and npc's wandering around etc.
These size of towns plus large scale battles is only possible in the movies
.
That's a cope-out used by people that don't want to admit it was too hard for them, which is hard for a person to admit especially if they call themselves a hardcore gamer.
The fact of the matter is when I started in 05, and when I made a new character earlier this year, the only difference was that it was easier for my new character to get going than it was for me in 05. Hell my new guy started with over 800k sp and a rank 2 skill at 5. He had more gunnery and missile skills to start with than I had after a month, and he had other skills that I was trying to get while running level 1s in a condor, because I didn;t have the skill to fly anything better for a day because I was training to use basic weapons.
Then you get to the fact that ships are more durable now, missions aren't so insane (doing level 1 drone missions when I started was so hard and long I nearly quit the game), and the 10 part starter storyline gave me *2* frigates and some mods for them. After the 10 part mission I had a kestrel with missile launchers. My main didn't have a kestrel or merlin for over a week.
There were people tweaked out and capped in their pvp skills when I started then, and there are people like that now. You know what though? Those maxed skills didn't mean much in FW when I'd undock in a blackbird and jam 2-3 large ships, and warp to a safespot to come back in and rejam so I didn't get popped.
When I look at the Caldari Militia, they're just the second example of novices being able to compete in EVE if they work together, and if needed call for reinforcements. The first example would be goonfleet.
Thats RvR , mista
That's the centralizing I'm refering to, maybe you are misunderstanding what I'm referring to when I say centralizing?
I know exactly what Warhammer is trying to do here, which I think is a good design, again it's not what I'm looking for.
Either way it comes down to who brings the greater force to a keep, or a contested area. Most PVE centralizes you in these different locations. Guiding you to the battle, that again is an excellent design. The point also must be stressed, this is linear PVP at it's finest. Linearity is a deign choice to centralize players in areas, which is a sound approach to game design. It simply isn't what everyone wants out of their game.
i guess centralized means 3 keeps in 3 of the largest zones in the game. That sounds pretty centralized.
Every game is linear. Seriously......................... Atleast in warhammer you will have multiple zones to fight on rather than 1 in aoc.
Also it doesnt get much more linear than having planned times for seiges. Warhammer sieges can and will happen at any time, across alot of keeps, of all tiers.
Yeah agenda planned sieges is where i lost all interest of sieges in aoc.
Sounds more like a glorified battleground which happens to have a keep and siege weapons in. Much cooler then not i give you that but still there's no surprise or randomness in it. Its just an instance like any other pvp instance.
Now the wonder battlekeeps they plan to put in is more like daoc or warhammer keeps though i still dont see m work. 1 keep for each town while every town has the supposedly oposite faction shopping in their own town lol. Yeah right. Itll be fun sure but nowhere near will there be any sense of realm vs realm.That plus only 1 keep, well thatll get boring fast enough. Plus itll be a year before its even in giving the speed at which funcom updates
.
To pass my time i play some wow pvp. Subscribed to that and coh for a month coz i was so bored, didnt want to play war beta to much.
God is it boring in the battlegrounds. Definately now since i played warhammer. I already was bored beyond believe with it but now its even more aparent how crap pvp in wow.Granted i never ever played arena's which are most likely alot more fun.
Actually combat is really boring. Auto attack and wait for your skill to recycle since you always follow the same paternts of skill sequence when you attack, its like pushing 1, 2, 3.
Its so obvious wow people complaining about warhammer being boring combat never even looked further then the first few lvls, nor tried to undestand the combat mechanics. In wow i need a 41 talent skill to get an insta attack or be a warlock. In warhammer every single class has a bunch of insta attacks coz it doesnt rely on auto attack.
I did love combat in aoc though and the classes i thought were kick ass.
You're only somewhat right there Av. AoC tried to set a new standard and define the future of MMOs. However the end result was that they let the game itself suffer and aside from the fact this is AO 2.0 as far as their mismanagement, and that within the next year or 2 games will come out with graphics as good as AoC's or better, they oonly showed that trying to tweak as much eyecandy as you can into a game is a bad idea.
Anyone in gaming with half a brain knows that graphics come and go, but gameplay will define your success. Think of all the revolutionary games, graphics wise. How many do you find in lists for all-time great games? You might find Oblivion in there and a couple others, but it will be dominated by games where graphics were not a focus, gameplay was.
the white lion was prob a bad example of combat in warhammer. Its one of the classes that relies on dps and should play a support role or at least gank others while not having to tank them
. His skills are mostly orientated to side and back attacks.When a white lion solo's other players he'll do exactly what is shown in the video, contstantly strafe and circle simply because he needs to being a white lion coz thats how his skills are build. Many other classes do not rely on back or side attacks.
In pve and pvp the white lion has 3 stances which both buff his pet and him in different ways. Also with each stance the pet gets different attack skills of which one is 40% snare and very useful for pvp.In pvp the white lion will also mostly let the pet tack through a stance which gives the pet alot of thread. Hence where his side and back attacks come into play. He wont have to strafe etc then. In pvp his role is quick dps where it needs it but preferably not to solo/tank other players unless its a caster.
Also the video was shown in a scenario which is somewhat boring looking though not less fun. In the middle is a spiral which has a control point which you defend. There's way cooler and prettier scenario's in warhammer. For instance the empire tier 1 scenario is way more open space, has 3 control points and looks awesome i think. Also for instance check out the empire tier 1 zone. I think it looks seriously beautiful. Though i run the game with forced settings on AA x16 etc etc bla bla all options turned on.
Its a shame that by default they didnt at least put AA in the war settings coz it really makes it all look very smooth.
More apropriate video's with comment. Really nice site are on this url.
http://textwall.blogspot.com/
For instance there's a video where it shows the bright wizard in action with awesome area damage nukes at a keep fight. Or a shaman in a large scenario called praag. The links are to the right on the page and are really informative since the player gives comments about the class and its skills while playing.
That's incorrect. The Warrior Priest I played used a sledge until level 10 when I bought a new hammer and a tome to do more healing, and my weapon speed with the sledge was 3.2, however my skills could be used every 1.5 seconds unless cooling down, so when that was factored in the following would happen:
Put some HoTs on everyone taking some damage until out of juice.
Run up to an enemy, usually a healer I got behind, hit with skill, giving defensive target (myself) +strength (thus +dam) for 20 seconds.
1.5 seconds later, hit with skill to lower inititive, which makes it easier to land crits (not but my though) and did nice damage.
1.5 seconds later, since by now I had taken some damage from a tank trying to save the healer, drop a HOT on myself since my melee skills regen my fury for magic.
1.5 seconds after that, hit with an attack skill that heals the defensive target (me) for 250% of the damage I dealt to the target, at level 11 I was usually healing about 300 hp total.
After that, if I was low on health and had morale up, I'd use my morale heal to heal about 600 damage to myself. Also, when the target would try to flee, I'd hit them with a melee skill to lower their movement by 60% for a few seconds, allowing me to continue my onslaught.
Now if this was AoC, I'd have stood there doing nothing to the healer as his tank did nothing to me, instead, one of us would die. In one lucky case, I killed both the enemy healer and a tank that tried to save him (both were rank 3 bumped to rank 8, I was rank 11 so had a big edge) and it was a lot more fun than AoC. The only downside was if 2-3 melee got near me I often found myself dead from about 70% hp almost instantly.
What you mention dying from 70% to almost instantly is what i really like about warhammer. It might sound weird though but this is how fast you die and this is a good thing.
Any class can live long vs 1 or 2 hitting him as long as he can heal himself or a healer back him up with heals. However if its 3 hitting on that same person that person regardless if he can heal himself or has a healer healing him WILL GO DOWN FAST. Only tank classes with shield can live long vs 3 and more players but they wont be able to do much in the mean time.
I love this about warhammer. No more immortal classes coz they have a healer healing them.
Healer heals are not that overpowered like in other mmorpgs. From what i understand they mostly consist of hots and 2 big heals. I myself played a runepriest and archamage which are really fun classes to play and at least below lvl 12 its not doable to keep anyone alive vs 3 or 4 hitting him. He goes down so fast you will be next, so get ready to run then.
Its great that warhammer is like this. It has to be like this or zerg vs zerg would take an eternity. Coz of this anyone always has his back while at the front to not get ganked and die really fast.
still waiting for your reply Avery.... funny how you havent said a word since I laid down this challenge...
Cmon man.... 3 days left till your glorious AoC adds PvP XP.... (or so you say anyway)
do we have an accord?
still waiting for your reply Avery.... funny how you havent said a word since I laid down this challenge...
Cmon man.... 3 days left till your glorious AoC adds PvP XP.... (or so you say anyway)
do we have an accord?
He's too busy playing on the WAR CE headstart to answer you
.
still waiting for your reply Avery.... funny how you havent said a word since I laid down this challenge...
Cmon man.... 3 days left till your glorious AoC adds PvP XP.... (or so you say anyway)
do we have an accord?
He's too busy playing on the WAR CE headstart to answer you
.
LOL.... thats funny in so many ways... +1
That's the centralizing I'm refering to, maybe you are misunderstanding what I'm referring to when I say centralizing?
I know exactly what Warhammer is trying to do here, which I think is a good design, again it's not what I'm looking for.
Either way it comes down to who brings the greater force to a keep, or a contested area. Most PVE centralizes you in these different locations. Guiding you to the battle, that again is an excellent design. The point also must be stressed, this is linear PVP at it's finest. Linearity is a deign choice to centralize players in areas, which is a sound approach to game design. It simply isn't what everyone wants out of their game.
i guess centralized means 3 keeps in 3 of the largest zones in the game. That sounds pretty centralized.
Every game is linear. Seriously......................... Atleast in warhammer you will have multiple zones to fight on rather than 1 in aoc.
Also it doesnt get much more linear than having planned times for seiges. Warhammer sieges can and will happen at any time, across alot of keeps, of all tiers
When I'm using the term centralized, I'm saying they guide you to those areas through PVE and PVP oriented quests. Of course they have to offer more than one or you have 3k people in the same area, that's not gonna work.
No every game is not linear, you never played eve, pre-cu SWG or UO I take it?
I played the entire open beta if that didn't sell the game to me, you sure as hell aren't going to. Which seems to be your goal, that or your telling me my opinion is not the right one for me to live by. If I don't like game aspects that lead me around, why the hell would I be playing AOC for it's seige system? Think before you reply next time, please.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson