The answer to where did the grind come from in every case is Everquest.
Grind levels with extra grinding hell levels that were simply more ginding for no reason other than to make you grind.
Grind quests taken to the limit with epic quests. Every class needing full guild support to complete quests ! Rezz bots need epics... Shall quests, ring quests quest quest quest...
Grinding raids started with The Sleepers Tomb where entire guilds needed to farm up melee gear so they could take their crew up against the more savage giants where you replaced grinding raids for half the guild with grinding a raid for one class. I remeber knocking the AoW off so many times I had a BoC and I was a fucking Pally... Thats what happens when you cannot afford to let other guilds kill bosses.
Grinding keys, grinding flags, grinding grinding grinding... now the devs grind expantions and lets hope they die from it.
MUDs had grind way before EQ. The one I played, had grind to advance your level, then grind some more to advance the level of each of your skills. But because it was pk, full loot it was a lot of fun.
So grind was around way before MMOs, sorry all.
Ask another question, what is the first MMORPG not to have grind? And the answer sould be none, they all do. That's what's makes them an RPG. If they didn't have it, they would be first pearson shooters and all of you would complain that they lack "depth".
The grind comes with character advancement systems, no matter what genre you will find it where there is some form of character advancement. And that all predates video games.
I'd say Everquest "invented" it, Wow made it popular.
Originally posted by paulscott Dungeons and dragons (RL). While it's not a grind because of it's medium, trying to turn it into a video game makes it so.
Yes and no.
If you ask me, the thing that made pen&paper rpgs awesome got lost in the transition to mmorpgs. It's the story, custom made. You have your gm who tells a story which you are part in. It's not a grind, because the actual advancement isn't really the point of the game, it's the storytelling.
Any by storytelling i mean individually crafted stories that you could actually affect. The world was yours, and you were the hero. Not a hero of ten million who all experience the same..
If you ask me, the thing that made pen&paper rpgs awesome got lost in the transition to mmorpgs. It's the story, custom made. You have your gm who tells a story which you are part in. It's not a grind, because the actual advancement isn't really the point of the game, it's the storytelling. Any by storytelling i mean individually crafted stories that you could actually affect. The world was yours, and you were the hero. Not a hero of ten million who all experience the same..
It's the graphics that replaced the imagination part of the story. I remember my uncle who played D&D pen and paper told me that he was totally "lost" in the game. And that was pen and paper. And now, even with all that stunning visual effects in games, people are still mostly unsatisfied. Mind you, he was telling me that story with pride.
Guess what, he doesn't play anymore. But he is proud he's one of the pen and paper guys. It's not something most peole would say on MMOs.
Dungeons and dragons (RL). While it's not a grind because of it's medium, trying to turn it into a video game makes it so.
I know where you are coming from (I do). But really, MMOs have yet to port D&D PnP in its entirety. Neverwinter Nights is the closest thing we have whereas the players can become the DMs.
A faithful port of the PnP will give players the freedom to create their own stories. It would also give the DM the power to award XP as he see fit.
I believe firmly the only true Dungeon Master games out there is perhaps Second Life / Neverwinter Nights.
You are correct; but I'm just stating that form my point of view MMORPGs are like a stepchild of D&D PnP. They're fun stepchildren but not really a true 'successor'
I know where you are coming from (I do). But really, MMOs have yet to port D&D PnP in its entirety. Neverwinter Nights is the closest thing we have whereas the players can become the DMs. A faithful port of the PnP will give players the freedom to create their own stories. It would also give the DM the power to award XP as he see fit.
While it's not a direct d&d game, ryzom does have this feature, kinda.
The D&D system was not intended to make a grind. It was used so that you character would become stronger as the game progressed. Eventually you would grow to epic proportions and be able to defeat the super evil creature at the end of the adventure.
I don't know, "grind" is the trademark of the MMORPG genre, w/o the grind, you don't have an MMORPG, you have a FPS or adventure game. So all MMO's have some sort of grind, even UO had you grinding skills up and there' really aren't many games that haven't forced you to grind for money, no matter how they're designed. Another poster said it, I hit the grind in every MMO I've ever played, and I dare say even MUDDs had grind.
I really wish the Warhammer fanbois would read this and try to argue it. Some incessantly deny that there is a grind (supporting my statement that it's really CS Source wrapped in an MMO wrapper). Then on the other hand....if you're constantly trying to get to that next set of RR gear....how can you NOT call that a grind?
Sorry, didn't mean to interject more "War discussion" into the thread, but, I've heard SO many people say that WAR isn't a grind. I agree and disagree. I think they've infused just enough grind to still be able to legitimately call it an MMO. LOL
Hopefully this post won't derail the entire thread, but....yes, I think EQ (for those of us that are old enough to actually remember it) probably started the "grind" factor, but like another poster stated....it wasn't always that way.
Think of it this way....why do you go to work every day? Because you need to pay bills and ALSO...to save for things that you WANT, things you desire. Human beings like to have a sense of "achievement" and to obtain desirable things from the investment of their time and money. Games, therefore, added this possibility of "obtaining" and the sense of accomplishment from "owning" items, armor, homes, etc., that is achieved by....you guessed it....grinding (read "working") for them.
Just as in real life, if everything came easy, and required no real effort (grind), how "proud" would you really be of the accomplishment?
The trick is to make the "grinding"/"working" in a game...enjoyable...while still having the end result of "possessions," and virtual "accomplishments."
The D&D system was not intended to make a grind. It was used so that you character would become stronger as the game progressed. Eventually you would grow to epic proportions and be able to defeat the super evil creature at the end of the adventure.
Exactly.
Let me explain what happens.
People get involved with character development, the same as they do when watching a movie or TV series. Their character has personality, statistics, abilities, and idiosyncracies. People get attached to their character and its personality. They want to know how their character ends up, all the stories of its life. And they want to keep playing the game using that particular character.
Then, MMORPG game mechanics fall short. There isn't much else for the character to do or accomplish, because high quality sandbox mechanics are not in place. Rather than introduce high quality sandbox mechanics, it's actually simpler for developers to introduce grinding mechanics that they think will keep players playing while they work on the game (which is already horribly crippled because it wasn't built around high quality sandbox mechanics).
It doesn't work. Grinds may generate income in the short term, but the tactic has already started backfiring. MMO gamers, in general, have developed a very low tolerance for grinding mechanics.
Comments
The answer to where did the grind come from in every case is Everquest.
Grind levels with extra grinding hell levels that were simply more ginding for no reason other than to make you grind.
Grind quests taken to the limit with epic quests. Every class needing full guild support to complete quests ! Rezz bots need epics... Shall quests, ring quests quest quest quest...
Grinding raids started with The Sleepers Tomb where entire guilds needed to farm up melee gear so they could take their crew up against the more savage giants where you replaced grinding raids for half the guild with grinding a raid for one class. I remeber knocking the AoW off so many times I had a BoC and I was a fucking Pally... Thats what happens when you cannot afford to let other guilds kill bosses.
Grinding keys, grinding flags, grinding grinding grinding... now the devs grind expantions and lets hope they die from it.
MUDs had grind way before EQ. The one I played, had grind to advance your level, then grind some more to advance the level of each of your skills. But because it was pk, full loot it was a lot of fun.
So grind was around way before MMOs, sorry all.
Ask another question, what is the first MMORPG not to have grind? And the answer sould be none, they all do. That's what's makes them an RPG. If they didn't have it, they would be first pearson shooters and all of you would complain that they lack "depth".
Pen and paper role playing games.
The grind comes with character advancement systems, no matter what genre you will find it where there is some form of character advancement. And that all predates video games.
Well EQ was one hell of a grind and it was the one of the first, so probably EQ and for what they say, UO, I didn't play it.
Dungeons and dragons (RL). While it's not a grind because of it's medium, trying to turn it into a video game makes it so.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I'd say Everquest "invented" it, Wow made it popular.
Yes and no.
If you ask me, the thing that made pen&paper rpgs awesome got lost in the transition to mmorpgs. It's the story, custom made. You have your gm who tells a story which you are part in. It's not a grind, because the actual advancement isn't really the point of the game, it's the storytelling.
Any by storytelling i mean individually crafted stories that you could actually affect. The world was yours, and you were the hero. Not a hero of ten million who all experience the same..
That's true. DDO has spectacular grind in so many mmo I have played before.
It's the graphics that replaced the imagination part of the story. I remember my uncle who played D&D pen and paper told me that he was totally "lost" in the game. And that was pen and paper. And now, even with all that stunning visual effects in games, people are still mostly unsatisfied. Mind you, he was telling me that story with pride.
Guess what, he doesn't play anymore. But he is proud he's one of the pen and paper guys. It's not something most peole would say on MMOs.
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That's true. DDO has spectacular grind in so many mmo I have played before.
maybe I should edit it to P&P I was half asleep.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I know where you are coming from (I do). But really, MMOs have yet to port D&D PnP in its entirety. Neverwinter Nights is the closest thing we have whereas the players can become the DMs.
A faithful port of the PnP will give players the freedom to create their own stories. It would also give the DM the power to award XP as he see fit.
I believe firmly the only true Dungeon Master games out there is perhaps Second Life / Neverwinter Nights.
You are correct; but I'm just stating that form my point of view MMORPGs are like a stepchild of D&D PnP. They're fun stepchildren but not really a true 'successor'
Dungeons and Dragons invented it.
It was perpetuated by MUD design.
UO had it in skill grinding.
EQ had it in level grinding.
But in the end it's as old as D&D.
While it's not a direct d&d game, ryzom does have this feature, kinda.
The D&D system was not intended to make a grind. It was used so that you character would become stronger as the game progressed. Eventually you would grow to epic proportions and be able to defeat the super evil creature at the end of the adventure.
I really wish the Warhammer fanbois would read this and try to argue it. Some incessantly deny that there is a grind (supporting my statement that it's really CS Source wrapped in an MMO wrapper). Then on the other hand....if you're constantly trying to get to that next set of RR gear....how can you NOT call that a grind?
Sorry, didn't mean to interject more "War discussion" into the thread, but, I've heard SO many people say that WAR isn't a grind. I agree and disagree. I think they've infused just enough grind to still be able to legitimately call it an MMO. LOL
Hopefully this post won't derail the entire thread, but....yes, I think EQ (for those of us that are old enough to actually remember it) probably started the "grind" factor, but like another poster stated....it wasn't always that way.
Think of it this way....why do you go to work every day? Because you need to pay bills and ALSO...to save for things that you WANT, things you desire. Human beings like to have a sense of "achievement" and to obtain desirable things from the investment of their time and money. Games, therefore, added this possibility of "obtaining" and the sense of accomplishment from "owning" items, armor, homes, etc., that is achieved by....you guessed it....grinding (read "working") for them.
Just as in real life, if everything came easy, and required no real effort (grind), how "proud" would you really be of the accomplishment?
The trick is to make the "grinding"/"working" in a game...enjoyable...while still having the end result of "possessions," and virtual "accomplishments."
Just my 10 cents.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Exactly.
Let me explain what happens.
People get involved with character development, the same as they do when watching a movie or TV series. Their character has personality, statistics, abilities, and idiosyncracies. People get attached to their character and its personality. They want to know how their character ends up, all the stories of its life. And they want to keep playing the game using that particular character.
Then, MMORPG game mechanics fall short. There isn't much else for the character to do or accomplish, because high quality sandbox mechanics are not in place. Rather than introduce high quality sandbox mechanics, it's actually simpler for developers to introduce grinding mechanics that they think will keep players playing while they work on the game (which is already horribly crippled because it wasn't built around high quality sandbox mechanics).
It doesn't work. Grinds may generate income in the short term, but the tactic has already started backfiring. MMO gamers, in general, have developed a very low tolerance for grinding mechanics.
Many of us never had a high tolerance.