You know what the next WoW killer will be? Not a WoW Clone, but the game that takes WoW's philosophy of "Take the best ideas and dumb them down". I swear to you...with all these failed games...if one company took all of the best parts and put them into one game...you would have the next WoW killer. Don't copy what WoW is now. Do what WoW 2 would do.
lets face it this has some truth to it.
after all wow did copy EQ but improved on it .so the next big thing will probably improve on WOW.I think if WAR improved their end game pve they could have done it
That might be true but hopefully not. Sometimes a new games pop up and change the entire genre.
I doubt that only Bioware can make the next big MMO but I don't doubt that they will give us a boost of that RPG in mmoRPG, that have always been Biowares strong side and something that will be really good for the genre.
Also biowares character development is miles better than any MMO, in many bioware game your actions actually change your character. Now you will probably have to be careful of which quests you do.
Odds are it'll be the same level based donkey-spank that's being churned out by an industry entrenched in the Blizzard Doctrine. I've tried being optimistic with the recent releases moving away from the "ride a rail content" from one area to the next level based "level for cookies" forumla. AAA companies aren't interested in doing that, though. So, yeah, I'll watch on the 21st or whatever day it is the information gets released. I can say that when (not if) I see that it is "more of the same" with levels and such and just an overall focus on the same game mechanics that get beaten like a dead horse over and over, at that point I'll just pull up a seat and what and get a kick out of people blowing a gasket over how it's a "WoW clone", as if a AAA company today has the stones to go any other route and emulate the progression of say Ultima Online at it's launch or Star Wars Galaxies in the beginning. Nope, "I have a bad feeling about this" and that feeling is a level-based Jedi sausage fest grind from 1 to level cap.
Best post of this thread.
I got the same feelings, but still hoping, BioWare Austin got some balls to do something different.
Lets face it, MMORPGs have not evoled one bit since WoW came out. The genre is now overflowing with clones and scams. What MMOs need now is a breath of fresh air.
Love this introduction. Gonna frame it.
Down with Quickbar / cool-down moves / collect X rat balls / accept-decline / type of mmos.
I'll ask this nicely..please..please! don't overhype this game, i am a fan of bioware also, but i'm just hoping for a fun game, i'm not making a wish list of things to be in it, i'm not thinking they will save the mmo world...just people need to control the hype machine better and not go overboard. Look at all the games that have come out and have been overhyped...just seriously hope for a good game and don't set your expectations to high.
Look at this board over the last year...Too late for overhyping.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Lets face it, MMORPGs have not evoled one bit since WoW came out. The genre is now overflowing with clones and scams. What MMOs need now is a breath of fresh air. In comes BioWare. Arguably the best "story telling" RPG developer out there, BioWare is making a bold move by attempting to take on the MMO market. Sort of like another company that made only RTS games did years ago...cough....blizzard...cough. This gives BioWare the oportunity to revolutionize the industry and get us out of the wow clone fest we have today. Or they can fall in step behind blizzard and put out another clone dooming us to another 1000000 years of mediocrity. Hyperbole aside, we are at a pivotal point for MMOs. No established big wig of MMOdom will get thier heads out of blizzards arse long enough to make anything worthwhile so its up to a new comer to tow the line of change. Can BioWare do it.? They certainly can make some good RPGs but making an MMO interesting and engaging is a much harder a task. Plus Lucas Arts will be a part of the mix. Something I never thought BioWare would put up with again. Word is this might be a KoTOR MMO. Thats fine and dandy if done right. But I am really hoping that this new MMO ties into the new Star Wars live action tv show (not animated). I have heard rumors that this is the case and that you can watch the show and then hop on the game and visit the locations just explored in the show. Maybe even updates could coincide with showtimes so that after the show diologue could change "in game" to reflect what happened in the show. I am talking total integration of tv and games that has never been seen before. Hell the possiblities are endless and it would definately revolutionize the industry combined with BioWare's track record of good stroy telling. Or it could just be a KoTOR MMO.
I have to admit I had to chuckle slightly when you said "Bioware is the best RPG story telling developer". I'm going to assume you were never introduced to the works of Square Enix and Hirinobu Sakaguchi. Speaking of Square Enix, they also jumped from the RPG market to the MMORPG market and created a game that was very similar to Everquest (The "WoW" at the time) so I don't see what a companies history has anything to do with it, and I certainly don't see why Bioware is the end and all of mmo gaming when we know nothing about their project.
I have also seen the comments from Bioware. Vogel saying how different they are going to be but they refused to even tell what their mmo was going to be about. I say, put up or shut up. if it is indeed a KOTOR MMO, and it looks like it will be, then they already lose points with me for jumping on the "Lets make an MMO on an already exisiting IP because we can't be bothered to create a new one" bandwagon.
Bioware just has a really good reputation of launching quality, well-polishing FUN Games. The same as Blizzard.
I honestly don't think think their game will be particularly innovative though. If I had to design a game to compete with WOW, I really wouldn't know what to do. Make it a little more of a sandbox (UO)? Focus more on the storytelling(LotRO)? Focus more on PvP(Warhammer)?
I just don't see where ANYONE could drastically improve upon WOW. Bioware could take all of those pieces from those 3 games, make them better and then throw it on top of a very polished version of WOW.. but that isn't being innovative.
I think other companies tried to do things 'different' than WOW.. My guess is that Bioware is just going to try to out-wow wow.
I'm not liking the sound of this. A potential TV tie in and EA involvement makes this reek of dumbed down craptastic mediocrity the likes of which have never been seen before. If you had asked me without mentioning those things then I would said this was guarenteed win even though Bioware haven't made an mmorpg before.
One thing you need to remember is that Bioware has been working on this project since Dec 2005 long before they were bought by EA. Infact the MMO is the reason EA shelled out 640 million to buy Bioware. I doubt EA will come in and make them make changes. EA left Mythic alone to make Warhammer Online and that has turned out pretty good so far. If anything I would worry more about LA then EA, but I think LA learned their lesson with SWG's NGE.
Tabula Rasa tried to break the mold and look what happend to that game... I think the MMO market is generally broken into two camps....those that like to PvE more than anything else and those that like to PvP more than anything else. Both systems conflict with eachother and is one of the toughest issues for game developers to balance.....second to class balancing. Game companies that focus one one aspect of the game miss out on a large portion of the playerbase....which means they miss out on a large portion of the dollars. Darkfall (in concept) is most PvPer's dream but it can't get the financial backing from the EA's of the world because of all the resources involved in developing and maintaining the game for only a small portion of the MMO market doesn't make much cents. PvE games generally have a little more success, just because there are more PvErs in the mix, but eventually crash and burn when competing agianst the likes of WOW. So the answer is to please everyone and no one, ala WOW. Create a system that appeals to the entier MMO spectrum....but due to the conflicts that exist between the PvE and PvP systems (and limited allocation of resources to both) you dumb it down so you have less variables to balance. I just don't know what else you can do on a practicle level to "break the mold"....still keep it a MMO....and not scare off all the big game publishers by alienating half of the playerbase.
I would have to agrue this whole statement. EA funded Mythic to make Warhammer Online and its 90% PVP driven, and Blizzard's concept of PVP is crap making WoW a 90% PVE game. So both of those game have it own little niche market, and do pretty well. IMO the company that can be inovative to balance out PVP and PVE to have both in their game will capture both players interested PVP and PVE.
Odds are it'll be the same level based donkey-spank that's being churned out by an industry entrenched in the Blizzard Doctrine. I've tried being optimistic with the recent releases moving away from the "ride a rail content" from one area to the next level based "level for cookies" forumla. AAA companies aren't interested in doing that, though. So, yeah, I'll watch on the 21st or whatever day it is the information gets released. I can say that when (not if) I see that it is "more of the same" with levels and such and just an overall focus on the same game mechanics that get beaten like a dead horse over and over, at that point I'll just pull up a seat and what and get a kick out of people blowing a gasket over how it's a "WoW clone", as if a AAA company today has the stones to go any other route and emulate the progression of say Ultima Online at it's launch or Star Wars Galaxies in the beginning. Nope, "I have a bad feeling about this" and that feeling is a level-based Jedi sausage fest grind from 1 to level cap.
Agreed and agreed with those saying the next breakthrough would come from indie developers. It's the same damn thing for singleplayer games.
You can all rest easily knowing that some indie developer has a great idea that you'll absolutely love but ultimately will be completely ignored because they don't have the funds for the graphics idiots demand these days. Thus the state of the gaming industry. Sleep well!
Here's what we need to do and why it won't happen: Big companies are going to continue shoving out bad games because they know people will buy them. The solution is simple, stop buying them. It's similar to losing weight: you stop eating. But that's not going to happen because if Americans are any indication, people would much rather continue eating and wasting money than just going without.
Sorry for being a pessimist but I just don't see games getting any better until customers get more demanding with their money.
Personal Rant:
As far as I'm concerned the last fun game Bioware made was Baldur's Gate and that was only fun because there was actually a variation in the enemies you fought. The story was boring and combat was fairly lame yet nothing they've done since is even close to that. I don't have any hopes for them making a decent MMO.
I would like to think it would be up to Bioware because they have always made great games that do not disappoint but ofcourse we need to keep it real and just wait and see.
Tabula Rasa tried to break the mold and look what happend to that game... I think the MMO market is generally broken into two camps....those that like to PvE more than anything else and those that like to PvP more than anything else. Both systems conflict with eachother and is one of the toughest issues for game developers to balance.....second to class balancing. Game companies that focus one one aspect of the game miss out on a large portion of the playerbase....which means they miss out on a large portion of the dollars. Darkfall (in concept) is most PvPer's dream but it can't get the financial backing from the EA's of the world because of all the resources involved in developing and maintaining the game for only a small portion of the MMO market doesn't make much cents. PvE games generally have a little more success, just because there are more PvErs in the mix, but eventually crash and burn when competing agianst the likes of WOW. So the answer is to please everyone and no one, ala WOW. Create a system that appeals to the entier MMO spectrum....but due to the conflicts that exist between the PvE and PvP systems (and limited allocation of resources to both) you dumb it down so you have less variables to balance. I just don't know what else you can do on a practicle level to "break the mold"....still keep it a MMO....and not scare off all the big game publishers by alienating half of the playerbase.
I would have to agrue this whole statement. EA funded Mythic to make Warhammer Online and its 90% PVP driven, and Blizzard's concept of PVP is crap making WoW a 90% PVE game. So both of those game have it own little niche market, and do pretty well. IMO the company that can be inovative to balance out PVP and PVE to have both in their game will capture both players interested PVP and PVE.
LITTLE niche market"???
So what do you want to call a major market?
The problem is that on MMORPG.COM not many posters have "a reality" check on the current situtation.
The fact is that Wow already HAS an extremely polished MMORPG with high end PVE and balanced PvP "tactical" fights. NO other game comes even close to the fast, fury execution in the PvP mechanics. From CC, to very fluid animations, to control of the PvP avatar you 're fighting with.
So I would agree if you said Wow doesn't have a kind of global World PvP strategy end game, but on a tactical level - see the arena system - or the "fun" tactical fights, no other MMORPG delivers the same form of fast PvP execution ATM.
------------------
So the first thing a new MMORPG has to do is advance that control of the avatar. Question is... can it be bettered AND in higher resolutions - without lag and unresponsiveness? You can NOT jump further without the support of better hardware. AoC was hampered by this hardware limit and should be a lesson for future MMORPG's. Even WAR has very clumsy and clunky battle animations, needless to say this hampers PvP.
The second thing it has to do is "open seamless worlds" with good "sandbox" elements. The ideas are excellent here: in AoC you construct your own cities and fortresses with your guilds and defend them. Great . In WAR: you conquer territories and do quests all in support of that one world goal: conquer the capitol of the others. Great.
Execution and gameplay value: fail. The ideas are excellent until ... you begin to play and the motivation is just not there for the vast majority to keep "living" in those worlds. No lasting appeal.
So the next MMORPG has to be BETTER in the fluid Avatar controls and MUST have an open seamless world with BIG changeable sandbox elements. Players need to make their own history and stories in an ever changing world. No more linair walking to a rather one themed boring end game.
Problem is : it will cost far more than 1 billion dollars....D .... and will it even be succesfull???
Does anyone have 1 billion dollars to spare in these (economic depression) times of "quickly grab the money and run... ?"
Listen, I'm all pins and needles until the official reveal but the 'fate of MMO's is upto Bioware'? Umm, that's one hefty responsibilty to put on their shoulders. Let's leave it at the fate of SW as a marketable Ip in MMO land.
Do you see any other company poised to get us out of this WoW rut? I don't. All of the established companies just want their $$$ to hell with inovation. That is why BioWare is important. They are outsiders, just like blizzard was.
Actually, Blizzard really wasn't an outsider to MMO's as they already had some hefty experience under their belts with Diablo and Diablo II. While some might argue it wasn't a true MMO, look at how many players they had and it is kind of hard to say it wasn't one. Same can be argued for Bioware with Mass Effect, but ME has not been around near as long as Diablo had been before Blizz released WoW.
One thing I can say for Bioware is that they do listen to their fan base on how to improve the game and they do try to make new content for their games. Even their games that were player hosted, they still released excellent updates, expansions, and even added player created content with games that allowed for toolset use like NWN and their help with Obsidian on NWN2.
What we know is that they are working on a new game. What we don't know is what they have created. We can only speculate untill the 21st when they officially release information on it.
The only differences between an MMO and an ONline RPG are that MMO's instead of having different games players go to they have servers that basicaly allow everyone to play together, instead of 8 player limitations. This causes the servers to require more bandwidth, to have more servers, and also a higher rate at which the servers need to be maintained, hence the monthly payment. MMO's generaly have monthly updates, which can be smaller sized expansion packs (1.10 anyone?) which has the need for more tech workers.
Diablo + Diablo II although very good games, fan myself, are NOT MMO's a large player base does not mean a games an mmo, or else CS:Source, 1.6, bf2 and ther hot FPS would be considered MMO.
But blizzard does have quality under their belt, as you stated, cause thats how they struck it big, they made ane xtremely easy game with low system requirements and easy to play, goldmine.
Comments
lets face it this has some truth to it.
after all wow did copy EQ but improved on it .so the next big thing will probably improve on WOW.I think if WAR improved their end game pve they could have done it
That might be true but hopefully not. Sometimes a new games pop up and change the entire genre.
I doubt that only Bioware can make the next big MMO but I don't doubt that they will give us a boost of that RPG in mmoRPG, that have always been Biowares strong side and something that will be really good for the genre.
Also biowares character development is miles better than any MMO, in many bioware game your actions actually change your character. Now you will probably have to be careful of which quests you do.
Best post of this thread.
I got the same feelings, but still hoping, BioWare Austin got some balls to do something different.
Sera
Darjani SWGE Galaxy
the whole linked to TV show sounds absolutely LAME.
I will be slitting my wrists if that is the case.
KotOR please.
My blog:
Love this introduction. Gonna frame it.
Down with Quickbar / cool-down moves / collect X rat balls / accept-decline / type of mmos.
the best blog of the net
Look at this board over the last year...Too late for overhyping.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
I have to admit I had to chuckle slightly when you said "Bioware is the best RPG story telling developer". I'm going to assume you were never introduced to the works of Square Enix and Hirinobu Sakaguchi. Speaking of Square Enix, they also jumped from the RPG market to the MMORPG market and created a game that was very similar to Everquest (The "WoW" at the time) so I don't see what a companies history has anything to do with it, and I certainly don't see why Bioware is the end and all of mmo gaming when we know nothing about their project.
I have also seen the comments from Bioware. Vogel saying how different they are going to be but they refused to even tell what their mmo was going to be about. I say, put up or shut up. if it is indeed a KOTOR MMO, and it looks like it will be, then they already lose points with me for jumping on the "Lets make an MMO on an already exisiting IP because we can't be bothered to create a new one" bandwagon.
Bioware just has a really good reputation of launching quality, well-polishing FUN Games. The same as Blizzard.
I honestly don't think think their game will be particularly innovative though. If I had to design a game to compete with WOW, I really wouldn't know what to do. Make it a little more of a sandbox (UO)? Focus more on the storytelling(LotRO)? Focus more on PvP(Warhammer)?
I just don't see where ANYONE could drastically improve upon WOW. Bioware could take all of those pieces from those 3 games, make them better and then throw it on top of a very polished version of WOW.. but that isn't being innovative.
I think other companies tried to do things 'different' than WOW.. My guess is that Bioware is just going to try to out-wow wow.
One thing you need to remember is that Bioware has been working on this project since Dec 2005 long before they were bought by EA. Infact the MMO is the reason EA shelled out 640 million to buy Bioware. I doubt EA will come in and make them make changes. EA left Mythic alone to make Warhammer Online and that has turned out pretty good so far. If anything I would worry more about LA then EA, but I think LA learned their lesson with SWG's NGE.
I would have to agrue this whole statement. EA funded Mythic to make Warhammer Online and its 90% PVP driven, and Blizzard's concept of PVP is crap making WoW a 90% PVE game. So both of those game have it own little niche market, and do pretty well. IMO the company that can be inovative to balance out PVP and PVE to have both in their game will capture both players interested PVP and PVE.
The next big thing will come from an Indie developer.
Big compamies are getting it all wrong, they really don't get the concept of a MMORPG.
But if there is a big company that can make it, that s Bioware.
I can agree with an Indie company reworking the way MMOs work but I do not foresee Bioware breaking any molds, especially with LA in cahoots.
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You wouldn't understand
Agreed and agreed with those saying the next breakthrough would come from indie developers. It's the same damn thing for singleplayer games.
You can all rest easily knowing that some indie developer has a great idea that you'll absolutely love but ultimately will be completely ignored because they don't have the funds for the graphics idiots demand these days. Thus the state of the gaming industry. Sleep well!
Here's what we need to do and why it won't happen: Big companies are going to continue shoving out bad games because they know people will buy them. The solution is simple, stop buying them. It's similar to losing weight: you stop eating. But that's not going to happen because if Americans are any indication, people would much rather continue eating and wasting money than just going without.
Sorry for being a pessimist but I just don't see games getting any better until customers get more demanding with their money.
Personal Rant:
As far as I'm concerned the last fun game Bioware made was Baldur's Gate and that was only fun because there was actually a variation in the enemies you fought. The story was boring and combat was fairly lame yet nothing they've done since is even close to that. I don't have any hopes for them making a decent MMO.
I would like to think it would be up to Bioware because they have always made great games that do not disappoint but ofcourse we need to keep it real and just wait and see.
I would have to agrue this whole statement. EA funded Mythic to make Warhammer Online and its 90% PVP driven, and Blizzard's concept of PVP is crap making WoW a 90% PVE game. So both of those game have it own little niche market, and do pretty well. IMO the company that can be inovative to balance out PVP and PVE to have both in their game will capture both players interested PVP and PVE.
LITTLE niche market"???
So what do you want to call a major market?
The problem is that on MMORPG.COM not many posters have "a reality" check on the current situtation.
The fact is that Wow already HAS an extremely polished MMORPG with high end PVE and balanced PvP "tactical" fights. NO other game comes even close to the fast, fury execution in the PvP mechanics. From CC, to very fluid animations, to control of the PvP avatar you 're fighting with.
So I would agree if you said Wow doesn't have a kind of global World PvP strategy end game, but on a tactical level - see the arena system - or the "fun" tactical fights, no other MMORPG delivers the same form of fast PvP execution ATM.
------------------
So the first thing a new MMORPG has to do is advance that control of the avatar. Question is... can it be bettered AND in higher resolutions - without lag and unresponsiveness? You can NOT jump further without the support of better hardware. AoC was hampered by this hardware limit and should be a lesson for future MMORPG's. Even WAR has very clumsy and clunky battle animations, needless to say this hampers PvP.
The second thing it has to do is "open seamless worlds" with good "sandbox" elements. The ideas are excellent here: in AoC you construct your own cities and fortresses with your guilds and defend them. Great . In WAR: you conquer territories and do quests all in support of that one world goal: conquer the capitol of the others. Great.
Execution and gameplay value: fail. The ideas are excellent until ... you begin to play and the motivation is just not there for the vast majority to keep "living" in those worlds. No lasting appeal.
So the next MMORPG has to be BETTER in the fluid Avatar controls and MUST have an open seamless world with BIG changeable sandbox elements. Players need to make their own history and stories in an ever changing world. No more linair walking to a rather one themed boring end game.
Problem is : it will cost far more than 1 billion dollars....D .... and will it even be succesfull???
Does anyone have 1 billion dollars to spare in these (economic depression) times of "quickly grab the money and run... ?"
Do you see any other company poised to get us out of this WoW rut? I don't. All of the established companies just want their $$$ to hell with inovation. That is why BioWare is important. They are outsiders, just like blizzard was.
Actually, Blizzard really wasn't an outsider to MMO's as they already had some hefty experience under their belts with Diablo and Diablo II. While some might argue it wasn't a true MMO, look at how many players they had and it is kind of hard to say it wasn't one. Same can be argued for Bioware with Mass Effect, but ME has not been around near as long as Diablo had been before Blizz released WoW.
One thing I can say for Bioware is that they do listen to their fan base on how to improve the game and they do try to make new content for their games. Even their games that were player hosted, they still released excellent updates, expansions, and even added player created content with games that allowed for toolset use like NWN and their help with Obsidian on NWN2.
What we know is that they are working on a new game. What we don't know is what they have created. We can only speculate untill the 21st when they officially release information on it.
The only differences between an MMO and an ONline RPG are that MMO's instead of having different games players go to they have servers that basicaly allow everyone to play together, instead of 8 player limitations. This causes the servers to require more bandwidth, to have more servers, and also a higher rate at which the servers need to be maintained, hence the monthly payment. MMO's generaly have monthly updates, which can be smaller sized expansion packs (1.10 anyone?) which has the need for more tech workers.
Diablo + Diablo II although very good games, fan myself, are NOT MMO's a large player base does not mean a games an mmo, or else CS:Source, 1.6, bf2 and ther hot FPS would be considered MMO.
But blizzard does have quality under their belt, as you stated, cause thats how they struck it big, they made ane xtremely easy game with low system requirements and easy to play, goldmine.