Originally posted by HensenLiros You're just blind if you haven't noticed yet how much you expected. Many members of this forum would pay 50$/month for an experience like they used to have on Ultima Online, it's almost a gaming religion (I would). And you wanted Mythic to do something like it? No offense to DAoC, but we know it didn't have UO's sick immersion potential. That's what happens to blind optimistics. Be happy getting facing deception at every single corner of your life.
My god Ultima was wonderful, agreed.
And maybe yeah making a realistic Warhammer would have to be way too complex and multi-layered.
But the only beef one should have with this game is this, nothing else.
Well I'll accept to be sad but at least i will still have...
Originally posted by HensenLiros You're just blind if you haven't noticed yet how much you expected. Many members of this forum would pay 50$/month for an experience like they used to have on Ultima Online, it's almost a gaming religion (I would). And you wanted Mythic to do something like it? No offense to DAoC, but we know it didn't have UO's sick immersion potential. That's what happens to blind optimistics. Be happy getting facing deception at every single corner of your life.
My god Ultima was wonderful, agreed.
And maybe yeah making a realistic Warhammer would have to be way too complex and multi-layered.
But the only beef one should have with this game is this, nothing else.
Well I'll accept to be sad but at least i will still have...
dreams to dream.
I re-read my post and it sounded kind of offensive. It wasn't my intention, since I'm really in the same situation.
Ultima Online 98~04 Dark Age of Camelot 03~07 Final Fantasy XI 04~06 Guild Wars 05~08 World of Warcraft 04~05 Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
If I wanted to pve and do scenerios, I would do them in WOW. Which does pve better and scenarios about the same (but you don't because you are here. Your play style will have to change as will your expectations, and FYI the Scenarios in War are more creative and there are over all 8 more scenarios than WOW BGS. So I dont' really get how you can say they are about the same)
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
Uhm well I'm one of these that are letdowns, but i am not because i can't do quests and rvr and pq's, but because i can and i don't wanna. Is it licit to ask a MMO without any clichés such as Wow-type quests and daoc RvR? Is it licit to be letdown from war because i wanted more content for my class SOUL CALL ? I'm a warrior priest, i'd like gameplay mechanics that allow me to encourage faith, influence the feudal lords of the area, uncover heresy, lead inquisitors, take speeches, control a parrish given by ecclesiarchy benefit, inspire love for Sigmar and debate with other theologists in religious councils, discuss faith and reformation of doctrines, revolutionize religion by being the warhammer version of Martin Luther. I wanna meddle in politics (the count electors' affairs must be pretty interesting), I wanna feel like i am in a fanatic apocalyptically religious environment where witches are trialed and condemned and my best "quickbar skill" is an ode prayer to the Lord. My complaint is that the setting is just this.. a setting... but the game is played like any other game, and what I do in it has NOTHING to do with Warhammer. Uhm... can i at least has cooki?
A valid reason for not liking warhammer at heart.
But i think you got some facts messed up. THe quests are everquest like quests, not wow type quests. Wow took everquests style for questing, along with mechanics and focus.
I think that your right that if you looking for more lore based "politics" or what have you, this game might not be what your looking for.
Remember the focus here is RvR.
While your right that what you do on your own has little effect on the enviroment or the lore, the RvR does effect certain aspects of the game, nothing serious though.
But yeah i think a lot of hardcore warhammer lore fans would be let down with the overall focus of the game being RvR and not lore based pve (that would realy make it wow like wouldn it?)
If you want pve based lore (war does have it, its just overshadowed by RvR) you may want to look at one of the many pve p2p games that follow this model, hell they all do it, this game was never meant to be that type of game.
remember that in the present mmo world (thanks wow) all games in the near future are going to be released to not appeal to the hardcore lore fan minority, but the genaric mass appeal.
Creating a game that coul really only be enjoyed with someone with a vast knowledge of warhammer lore, would be a recepie for a game with 20k subscriptions ( not to say the game wouldnt rock)
So since 2004 the trend has been set: substitute lore for mass appeal. Untill something rocks the boat and dethrones the game that set this trend, i wouldnt expect anything for the hardcore lore fans in any story based series.
Actually WAR delivers better written "lore" in the ToK than any other mmo. However I dont think thats what Gylfi was talking about. The "lore" that the game provides is essentially irrelavant fluff that doesnt have any impact at all on the experience of playing the game. It just provides snippets of stuff to read and to be honest I much prefer reading a book for that. I dont play online games just to read stuff unless that stuff is relevant to my game experience. Can I interact with the "lore" of the game? Nope.....cos its just fluff.
I think the reason why Gylfi and any other fans of Warhammer may feel let down is because the entire game is just so generic. It looks like Warhammer but it certainly doesnt feel like it. We can see all of this action going on and yet none of it can really be interacted with. I know this is generally the case with all other mmos but for some reason it just seems even more glaring to me in WAR. Maybe its because I have read quite a few of the books and I know what the tabletop games are like or maybe its simply because I have seen the whole level-grindy questy bollocks before and feel its all just getting old now.
Its just that I feel this game could have been something really interesting. Instead we seem to have ended up with another vanilla flavoured mmo that has been painted in the Warhammer theme colours. No matter what race or class I pick I actually find myself having no interest whatsoever in the actual game world itself. The awesome world of Warhammer has been reduced to yet another set of maps where people can grind up some more levels.
My housemate (who doesnt really play mmos) was watching me play WAR earlier and initially he was interested as he likes Warhammer. He watched as a mortar round exploded. He said "Wow! That looked neat. Can you get hit by mortar rounds?" I had to reply "No you cant". "Oh.....thats odd.....all those orcs and dwarves that are fighting each other.....can you get involved and influence the battle?". Again I had to reply "No you cant. Its just graphics and doesnt actually mean anything. Its not actually there". "Oh.....so whats the point of the game then if you cant effect anything?" I paused before saying "Well....errmm....its an mmo so there isnt any point really. You just go up levels and thats it" to which he replied "But thats fucking rubbish! Why are you playing a game in which you cant do anything?". I didnt really have an answer to that to be honest except to just shrug my shoulders and say "Dunno really. Its just an addiction thing I guess".
I'm continuing to play WAR because I paid for it so I want to get my moneys worth. Its odd because I know it isnt actually a good game at all and yet it does pull off some of the "mythical golden carrot" addictive qualities fairly well. I have a friend who also has WAR and he said that it feels more like he is trying to like it rather than actually really liking it. I think I sort of feel the same way too. I will probably carry on churning my way through it until hopefully something more interesting with a bit more depth comes along. Its also a sad fact that its actually the best mmo around at the moment unless I go back to playing some other older mmo. I'm drawing some fun out of it as the PvP battles can be entertaining but I'm really getting no sense at all of fighting in some epic war in the Warhammer world. It feels more like its just full of individuals busy climbing the levelling ladder on the same server that happens to look like Warhammer.
Here's the thing. They give the player choices. Open RvR, PvE/PQ, Scenario. Pick one to level and you are free to forge your own destiny! Only the flaw in the design is that one of them offers a much faster rate of advancement (how is this a flaw, again some peopel like leveling fast some don't, how does this effect YOU? are you the competative type that everyone is outleveling you?), and ALL 3 of them require a large number of players to be fun, and offer a decent rate of advancement (PQs can be done with 3-5 people, Keep defense 5-10, Questing Solo, how is that LARGE?). Also from beta they raised the xp/rate of advancement drastically causing the PvE advancement to show drastic slowdown.( ok so that is a good thing right?) So the result is 90% of the people playing just use the one method that offers the fastest and easiest rate of advancement leaving the other 10% scattered and largely unable to make the other two forms of advancement worthwhile and eventually joining in on the Scenario grinding.(I mentioned how easy it is to do... I have no problem leveling with PQs, Solo, Scenarios and even defending Keeps. are you on a LOW LOW server???) This is great for the players who love that one method of advancement, but for those of us who can't stand scenario/bg/instance grinding over and over it makes the game lose all of its appeal real fast. (trust me .. it wouldn't be much different.. you would still have to go out of your way to get a group going.. you cant' just walk up on things.. even on HIGH HIGH servers you can't just walk up to a PQ at 11PM and see 20 people there)
I dont think ProfRed is at all bothered about people out-levelling him. Thats part of the point he was trying to make. He isnt interested in going up levels. Neither am I actually. WAR has the potential to be a pretty awesome RvR game. However because players have the choice to jump into scenarios or grind their way through tedious quests to gain exp, renown points, phat loot or whatever rewards the game can throw their way then they will choose the easist option to get them to the top quicker.
You keep saying things like "I can level well doing this" or "players can gain exp just as well doing this or that". I feel that the majority of WAR's gamers are thinking along the same lines......levels, levels, levels......more levels. Yes players can "level up" by doing anything but not everyone gets enjoyment from just "leveling up". I certainly dont and I'm sure there are plenty of mature people that want more from their gaming experience. The point is what are we all doing while we level up because gaining levels is just an after effect of playing the game. It shouldnt be the players objective should it? Isnt there something more to aim for other than the false satisfaction of achievement from dinging up to the next level?
Of course if the only reason you are playing the game is to collect stuff then sure people doing their own thing wont really effect you all that much as you will be cocooned in your own "level up bubble" and you will be happy as long as the exp keeps flowing in.......which it always will no matter what you do.
But for people who want to take part in an epic ongoing RvR war that covers the map then actually peoples obsession with scenarios, quests & levels will actually effect them. I was rather looking forward to some great RvR battles but because the game is split into 3 choices (as ProfRed said) it means that the real RvR aspect of the game just isnt anywhere near as good as it could be. Its really all because of the design of the game and the mentality of the playbase. There is no real incentive to fight over areas of the map in WAR because all people are interested in is what rewards they will receive. If players HAD to fight their way through areas to reach different places on the map to progress through the game then we might possibly have an awesome RvR war game taking place. Instead we have a game that is divided into seperate mini-games that are just a means to go up levels which seems like a shame to me.
Scenarios can be fun dont get me wrong but they DO have a negative effect on the RvR aspect of the game. Like you said though we should take the game for what it is.....afterall what else can we do? So yeah unfortunately WAR could be a really decent RvR mmo but instead its only another themepark where the players can choose the flavour of their levelling treadmill. Oh well there is still hope on the horizon I suppose.
Uhm well I'm one of these that are letdowns, but i am not because i can't do quests and rvr and pq's, but because i can and i don't wanna. Is it licit to ask a MMO without any clichés such as Wow-type quests and daoc RvR? Is it licit to be letdown from war because i wanted more content for my class SOUL CALL ? I'm a warrior priest, i'd like gameplay mechanics that allow me to encourage faith, influence the feudal lords of the area, uncover heresy, lead inquisitors, take speeches, control a parrish given by ecclesiarchy benefit, inspire love for Sigmar and debate with other theologists in religious councils, discuss faith and reformation of doctrines, revolutionize religion by being the warhammer version of Martin Luther. I wanna meddle in politics (the count electors' affairs must be pretty interesting), I wanna feel like i am in a fanatic apocalyptically religious environment where witches are trialed and condemned and my best "quickbar skill" is an ode prayer to the Lord. My complaint is that the setting is just this.. a setting... but the game is played like any other game, and what I do in it has NOTHING to do with Warhammer. Uhm... can i at least has cooki?
A valid reason for not liking warhammer at heart.
But i think you got some facts messed up. THe quests are everquest like quests, not wow type quests. Wow took everquests style for questing, along with mechanics and focus.
I think that your right that if you looking for more lore based "politics" or what have you, this game might not be what your looking for.
Remember the focus here is RvR.
While your right that what you do on your own has little effect on the enviroment or the lore, the RvR does effect certain aspects of the game, nothing serious though.
But yeah i think a lot of hardcore warhammer lore fans would be let down with the overall focus of the game being RvR and not lore based pve (that would realy make it wow like wouldn it?)
If you want pve based lore (war does have it, its just overshadowed by RvR) you may want to look at one of the many pve p2p games that follow this model, hell they all do it, this game was never meant to be that type of game.
remember that in the present mmo world (thanks wow) all games in the near future are going to be released to not appeal to the hardcore lore fan minority, but the genaric mass appeal.
Creating a game that coul really only be enjoyed with someone with a vast knowledge of warhammer lore, would be a recepie for a game with 20k subscriptions ( not to say the game wouldnt rock)
So since 2004 the trend has been set: substitute lore for mass appeal. Untill something rocks the boat and dethrones the game that set this trend, i wouldnt expect anything for the hardcore lore fans in any story based series.
Actually WAR delivers better written "lore" in the ToK than any other mmo. However I dont think thats what Gylfi was talking about. The "lore" that the game provides is essentially irrelavant fluff that doesnt have any impact at all on the experience of playing the game. It just provides snippets of stuff to read and to be honest I much prefer reading a book for that. I dont play online games just to read stuff unless that stuff is relevant to my game experience. Can I interact with the "lore" of the game? Nope.....cos its just fluff.
I think the reason why Gylfi and any other fans of Warhammer may feel let down is because the entire game is just so generic. It looks like Warhammer but it certainly doesnt feel like it. We can see all of this action going on and yet none of it can really be interacted with. I know this is generally the case with all other mmos but for some reason it just seems even more glaring to me in WAR. Maybe its because I have read quite a few of the books and I know what the tabletop games are like or maybe its simply because I have seen the whole level-grindy questy bollocks before and feel its all just getting old now.
Its just that I feel this game could have been something really interesting. Instead we seem to have ended up with another vanilla flavoured mmo that has been painted in the Warhammer theme colours. No matter what race or class I pick I actually find myself having no interest whatsoever in the actual game world itself. The awesome world of Warhammer has been reduced to yet another set of maps where people can grind up some more levels.
My housemate (who doesnt really play mmos) was watching me play WAR earlier and initially he was interested as he likes Warhammer. He watched as a mortar round exploded. He said "Wow! That looked neat. Can you get hit by mortar rounds?" I had to reply "No you cant". "Oh.....thats odd.....all those orcs and dwarves that are fighting each other.....can you get involved and influence the battle?". Again I had to reply "No you cant. Its just graphics and doesnt actually mean anything. Its not actually there". "Oh.....so whats the point of the game then if you cant effect anything?" I paused before saying "Well....errmm....its an mmo so there isnt any point really. You just go up levels and thats it" to which he replied "But thats fucking rubbish! Why are you playing a game in which you cant do anything?". I didnt really have an answer to that to be honest except to just shrug my shoulders and say "Dunno really. Its just an addiction thing I guess".
I'm continuing to play WAR because I paid for it so I want to get my moneys worth. Its odd because I know it isnt actually a good game at all and yet it does pull off some of the "mythical golden carrot" addictive qualities fairly well. I have a friend who also has WAR and he said that it feels more like he is trying to like it rather than actually really liking it. I think I sort of feel the same way too. I will probably carry on churning my way through it until hopefully something more interesting with a bit more depth comes along. Its also a sad fact that its actually the best mmo around at the moment unless I go back to playing some other older mmo. I'm drawing some fun out of it as the PvP battles can be entertaining but I'm really getting no sense at all of fighting in some epic war in the Warhammer world. It feels more like its just full of individuals busy climbing the levelling ladder on the same server that happens to look like Warhammer.
All im saying is that like 95% (i love random statistics) of the playerbase is playing this game for the RvR, i bet a majority of them wouldnt care what lore they used. There is a small % of hardcore warhammer lore fans, and from what i can understand, is that they are dissapointed in the fact that the game isnt all about the lore.
I never said that warhammer online lacked the lore, its got a ton of pve content and lore i have yet to scratch the surface of.
Im just saying that a majority of the players are playing because the RvR is fun as hell (this ties back into the whole trend of making fun games rather than complex lore heavy games of the past)
The thing is that most these players will most likely ignore the lore, and the developers know this, you know the kind of player that "fast forwards" past quest text to get to the objective part.
but yeah they kind of have to "vanilla-fie" the game to appeal to the large majority of mmo players who just want to play a game that is fun mechanically, not fun like a book fun. This is what i descibe as the wow effect on the mmo community. Its not all about making a huge complex story based mmo with tons of lore, its all about making a fun game appealing to everyone, not just those who like to read quests and get involved with the lore (real role players ect)
hopefully one day in the future we will get a game with it all, right now though im just playing the game for what it is, a really fun rvr game (considering the only other really fun RvR game that was ever made is DAoC, the market is completely lacking this type of game)
i understand the letdown for the guys who love their lore and story based game objectives, but i wouldnt get you hopes up anytime soon (unless a new game is announced)
@Crunchyblack>; Well you'll grant me that after darn warcraft everyone started implementing a version of the infamous exclamation mark over the head of an NPC to provide quests and used it as the best way to level up. Sure maybe everquest had already done that but before WoW I used to play Anarchy Online (with random gen.ed instance only missions off booths) and planetside with no PvE howsoever. As for the rest i don't like PvE, really, i consider it a contradiction of the very concept of being in a massively multiplayer persistant place. And tbh i'm not much interested in lore per se either, I never played Warhammer tabletop (just the 40k)... i'm more interested in the moral issues arising from being in a fictional world like that... I believe that's the tremendous advantage of an MMO, that is, taking a world that before then had only existed on paper and tales and give it a persistant dynamic virtual life. How does it feel to be in that world and to actually DO what a "real" person would do in it? It's an aspect that's been constantly over-valued for the sake of providing familiar user-friendly mechanics for the mass. I still wanna fight the hordes of destruction cause that's coherent with that world, i just wanna ask 'em why they hate us, can We do something about it with parliamentary debates and diplomacy? Can I try to convert heretics? And so on and so forth. As for the dreadful appeal to mass, ofc you're right (thanks WoW for mass marketizing MMO's). But i don't agree on the 20k subscriptions. I think there are humongously vast slices of market (basically the 30+ old-time pc-players) who are still waiting for a mature game.
I like what you typed there. It was a breath of fresh air amongst the stale mediocrity that passes for the mmo genre that has grown up around us today. It made me smile.
Unfortunately I do feel that we could be waiting for a long time before a games company plucks up the courage to actually try feeding the masses something different. I think the lucky company that dares to put some intelligence into their mmo might be pleasantly surprised by the response they receive.
Oh to dream of an mmo where you can actually do something meaningful that isnt a static PvE quest or the pursuit of the next level. Of course I never expected anything like that from WAR but after playing it for the past week or two I'm beginning to get the yearning for an interesting and detailed mmo even more now.
Uhm well I'm one of these that are letdowns, but i am not because i can't do quests and rvr and pq's, but because i can and i don't wanna. Is it licit to ask a MMO without any clichés such as Wow-type quests and daoc RvR? Is it licit to be letdown from war because i wanted more content for my class SOUL CALL ? I'm a warrior priest, i'd like gameplay mechanics that allow me to encourage faith, influence the feudal lords of the area, uncover heresy, lead inquisitors, take speeches, control a parrish given by ecclesiarchy benefit, inspire love for Sigmar and debate with other theologists in religious councils, discuss faith and reformation of doctrines, revolutionize religion by being the warhammer version of Martin Luther. I wanna meddle in politics (the count electors' affairs must be pretty interesting), I wanna feel like i am in a fanatic apocalyptically religious environment where witches are trialed and condemned and my best "quickbar skill" is an ode prayer to the Lord. My complaint is that the setting is just this.. a setting... but the game is played like any other game, and what I do in it has NOTHING to do with Warhammer. Uhm... can i at least has cooki?
A valid reason for not liking warhammer at heart.
But i think you got some facts messed up. THe quests are everquest like quests, not wow type quests. Wow took everquests style for questing, along with mechanics and focus.
I think that your right that if you looking for more lore based "politics" or what have you, this game might not be what your looking for.
Remember the focus here is RvR.
While your right that what you do on your own has little effect on the enviroment or the lore, the RvR does effect certain aspects of the game, nothing serious though.
But yeah i think a lot of hardcore warhammer lore fans would be let down with the overall focus of the game being RvR and not lore based pve (that would realy make it wow like wouldn it?)
If you want pve based lore (war does have it, its just overshadowed by RvR) you may want to look at one of the many pve p2p games that follow this model, hell they all do it, this game was never meant to be that type of game.
remember that in the present mmo world (thanks wow) all games in the near future are going to be released to not appeal to the hardcore lore fan minority, but the genaric mass appeal.
Creating a game that coul really only be enjoyed with someone with a vast knowledge of warhammer lore, would be a recepie for a game with 20k subscriptions ( not to say the game wouldnt rock)
So since 2004 the trend has been set: substitute lore for mass appeal. Untill something rocks the boat and dethrones the game that set this trend, i wouldnt expect anything for the hardcore lore fans in any story based series.
Actually WAR delivers better written "lore" in the ToK than any other mmo. However I dont think thats what Gylfi was talking about. The "lore" that the game provides is essentially irrelavant fluff that doesnt have any impact at all on the experience of playing the game. It just provides snippets of stuff to read and to be honest I much prefer reading a book for that. I dont play online games just to read stuff unless that stuff is relevant to my game experience. Can I interact with the "lore" of the game? Nope.....cos its just fluff.
I think the reason why Gylfi and any other fans of Warhammer may feel let down is because the entire game is just so generic. It looks like Warhammer but it certainly doesnt feel like it. We can see all of this action going on and yet none of it can really be interacted with. I know this is generally the case with all other mmos but for some reason it just seems even more glaring to me in WAR. Maybe its because I have read quite a few of the books and I know what the tabletop games are like or maybe its simply because I have seen the whole level-grindy questy bollocks before and feel its all just getting old now.
Its just that I feel this game could have been something really interesting. Instead we seem to have ended up with another vanilla flavoured mmo that has been painted in the Warhammer theme colours. No matter what race or class I pick I actually find myself having no interest whatsoever in the actual game world itself. The awesome world of Warhammer has been reduced to yet another set of maps where people can grind up some more levels.
My housemate (who doesnt really play mmos) was watching me play WAR earlier and initially he was interested as he likes Warhammer. He watched as a mortar round exploded. He said "Wow! That looked neat. Can you get hit by mortar rounds?" I had to reply "No you cant". "Oh.....thats odd.....all those orcs and dwarves that are fighting each other.....can you get involved and influence the battle?". Again I had to reply "No you cant. Its just graphics and doesnt actually mean anything. Its not actually there". "Oh.....so whats the point of the game then if you cant effect anything?" I paused before saying "Well....errmm....its an mmo so there isnt any point really. You just go up levels and thats it" to which he replied "But thats fucking rubbish! Why are you playing a game in which you cant do anything?". I didnt really have an answer to that to be honest except to just shrug my shoulders and say "Dunno really. Its just an addiction thing I guess".
I'm continuing to play WAR because I paid for it so I want to get my moneys worth. Its odd because I know it isnt actually a good game at all and yet it does pull off some of the "mythical golden carrot" addictive qualities fairly well. I have a friend who also has WAR and he said that it feels more like he is trying to like it rather than actually really liking it. I think I sort of feel the same way too. I will probably carry on churning my way through it until hopefully something more interesting with a bit more depth comes along. Its also a sad fact that its actually the best mmo around at the moment unless I go back to playing some other older mmo. I'm drawing some fun out of it as the PvP battles can be entertaining but I'm really getting no sense at all of fighting in some epic war in the Warhammer world. It feels more like its just full of individuals busy climbing the levelling ladder on the same server that happens to look like Warhammer.
All im saying is that like 95% (i love random statistics) of the playerbase is playing this game for the RvR, i bet a majority of them wouldnt care what lore they used. There is a small % of hardcore warhammer lore fans, and from what i can understand, is that they are dissapointed in the fact that the game isnt all about the lore.
I never said that warhammer online lacked the lore, its got a ton of pve content and lore i have yet to scratch the surface of.
Im just saying that a majority of the players are playing because the RvR is fun as hell (this ties back into the whole trend of making fun games rather than complex lore heavy games of the past)
The thing is that most these players will most likely ignore the lore, and the developers know this, you know the kind of player that "fast forwards" past quest text to get to the objective part.
but yeah they kind of have to "vanilla-fie" the game to appeal to the large majority of mmo players who just want to play a game that is fun mechanically, not fun like a book fun. This is what i descibe as the wow effect on the mmo community. Its not all about making a huge complex story based mmo with tons of lore, its all about making a fun game appealing to everyone, not just those who like to read quests and get involved with the lore (real role players ect)
hopefully one day in the future we will get a game with it all, right now though im just playing the game for what it is, a really fun rvr game (considering the only other really fun RvR game that was ever made is DAoC, the market is completely lacking this type of game)
i understand the letdown for the guys who love their lore and story based game objectives, but i wouldnt get you hopes up anytime soon (unless a new game is announced)
The bit highlighted in red made me laugh by the way. I liked that
But yeah I agree with everything you say actually. I'm playing the game for the RvR as well and although the mini battlegrounds are fun I do think they are having a detrimental effect on what I want to be getting out of the game. The PvE is boring though and the sooner mmos stop churning out that crap the better.
The lore fans shouldnt be disapointed though because as in any mmo all the lore actually is, is an online book split up into little patches of text and dotted around the game. Warhammer does that in the same way that any mmo does it. In Warhammer you dont need to read it to play the game and thats just the same with any mmo. Basicly the lore is as irrelevant to the game as it is with any other mmo. Like I said before, if reading the lore could somehow give me an insight into the game that I could act upon then I might actually bother to read it all but as its just meaningless fluff then I really dont give a shit about it. In fact I have turned into one of those "fast forward" people you mentioned when I'm playing these mmos because after a while my brain starts to get all melted and soggy from trying to pay attention to the meaningles drivel that passes as a quest explanation. I just look at the quest tracker now and see how many numbers I have to grind. I dont exhibit that behaviour with anything else. Very sad indeed.
Heavy roleplayers always seem really desperate to me in these mmos as we all know that they cant actually do jack-shit so its beyond me why they even bother. I do like talking like a gobbo though just for the amusement factor but to create an entire history and background for your character and then try and engage someone in a conversation about the happenings of the gameworld......yikes now thats desperate. I suppose it could work if the plot of the game was that some evil wizard had frozen time and forced everything to repeat itself like groundhog day.
I've read some posts by some people who say that they cant roleplay properly in WAR and yet I never thought you could roleplay properly in any mmo so I fail to see why they would have a problem. Just find someone who is willing to type crap into the text box and all should be well.
Anyway I think stories are for single player games. They dont belong in mmos.
Here's the thing. They give the player choices. Open RvR, PvE/PQ, Scenario. Pick one to level and you are free to forge your own destiny! Only the flaw in the design is that one of them offers a much faster rate of advancement (how is this a flaw, again some peopel like leveling fast some don't, how does this effect YOU? are you the competative type that everyone is outleveling you?), and ALL 3 of them require a large number of players to be fun, and offer a decent rate of advancement (PQs can be done with 3-5 people, Keep defense 5-10, Questing Solo, how is that LARGE?). Also from beta they raised the xp/rate of advancement drastically causing the PvE advancement to show drastic slowdown.( ok so that is a good thing right?) No not really a good thing. In beta I felt there was the perfect blend of PvE/world RvR/Scenarios. Now it is horribly skewed. In beta there was always plentiful action in all three areas. Comparing it to now is just sad. If you think that it is a good thing then this is the perfect direction in your eyes. I am just explaining why it is not the direction for me. The reason that it is a flaw is that it detaches a huge number of players from the game world making the game world seem more empty and barren, and when the servers support a lower pop than many other games and players are already divided by tiers this can combine to make a very shallow feeling for gamers who aren't into scenarios. So the result is 90% of the people playing just use the one method that offers the fastest and easiest rate of advancement leaving the other 10% scattered and largely unable to make the other two forms of advancement worthwhile and eventually joining in on the Scenario grinding.(I mentioned how easy it is to do... I have no problem leveling with PQs, Solo, Scenarios and even defending Keeps. are you on a LOW LOW server???) No i am in a high pop server, but it still rare to find people doing more than one or two PQ's and again it is a drastic drop from beta and launch to today. Solo is boring as hell. The solo gameplay in MMO's hasn't improved in some 10 years and I definitely don't play MMO's just to get to the end. I long for the old days when it was the journey that was important, and that journey did not equal grinding out instanced events like capture the flag. WAR had something beautiful going with PvP advancement and world RvR but without players it doesn't work out so well. This is great for the players who love that one method of advancement, but for those of us who can't stand scenario/bg/instance grinding over and over it makes the game lose all of its appeal real fast. (trust me .. it wouldn't be much different.. you would still have to go out of your way to get a group going.. you cant' just walk up on things.. even on HIGH HIGH servers you can't just walk up to a PQ at 11PM and see 20 people there) I played FFXI for like 5 years on and off and know as good as anyone how to get groups going. I leveled a dragoon, dark knight, and samurai to 75 and if you know about FFXI that would explain enough. It is different in WAR. Hardly anyone wants to group, those that do rarely talk even on my RP server, and if we lose just one fight half the time the party disbands. Randomly people enter scenarios and don't say anything so half the party just goes missing. I guess another thing that bugs me about WAR right now is the lack of comraderie in a RvR game.
I dont think ProfRed is at all bothered about people out-levelling him. Thats part of the point he was trying to make. He isnt interested in going up levels. Neither am I actually. WAR has the potential to be a pretty awesome RvR game. However because players have the choice to jump into scenarios or grind their way through tedious quests to gain exp, renown points, phat loot or whatever rewards the game can throw their way then they will choose the easist option to get them to the top quicker.
You keep saying things like "I can level well doing this" or "players can gain exp just as well doing this or that". I feel that the majority of WAR's gamers are thinking along the same lines......levels, levels, levels......more levels. Yes players can "level up" by doing anything but not everyone gets enjoyment from just "leveling up". I certainly dont and I'm sure there are plenty of mature people that want more from their gaming experience. The point is what are we all doing while we level up because gaining levels is just an after effect of playing the game. It shouldnt be the players objective should it? Isnt there something more to aim for other than the false satisfaction of achievement from dinging up to the next level?
Of course if the only reason you are playing the game is to collect stuff then sure people doing their own thing wont really effect you all that much as you will be cocooned in your own "level up bubble" and you will be happy as long as the exp keeps flowing in.......which it always will no matter what you do.
But for people who want to take part in an epic ongoing RvR war that covers the map then actually peoples obsession with scenarios, quests & levels will actually effect them. I was rather looking forward to some great RvR battles but because the game is split into 3 choices (as ProfRed said) it means that the real RvR aspect of the game just isnt anywhere near as good as it could be. Its really all because of the design of the game and the mentality of the playbase. There is no real incentive to fight over areas of the map in WAR because all people are interested in is what rewards they will receive. If players HAD to fight their way through areas to reach different places on the map to progress through the game then we might possibly have an awesome RvR war game taking place. Instead we have a game that is divided into seperate mini-games that are just a means to go up levels which seems like a shame to me.
Scenarios can be fun dont get me wrong but they DO have a negative effect on the RvR aspect of the game. Like you said though we should take the game for what it is.....afterall what else can we do? So yeah unfortunately WAR could be a really decent RvR mmo but instead its only another themepark where the players can choose the flavour of their levelling treadmill. Oh well there is still hope on the horizon I suppose.
Yeah I could care less about anyone else's levels. I just know that the one part of the game that really draws me in is the world RvR. Just like world PvP was the one aspect of WoW that kept me logging in. Sure people can still world PvP in WoW and world RvR in Warhammer but they just barely ever do anymore. Everyone in both games grinds scenarios/bg's, mostly solo PvE's, etc. Most players are detached and barely ever talk. I was on a RP server too and people barely talked. I kept talking anyway but over half the parties I was in someone would be a jerk and either:
a) Make fun of me if I was RP'ing,
b) If I was giving orders to try and organize us someone would always complain about someone giving orders, and half the time they would be fighting a tank with two healers up on a hill behind him,
c) Get their objective then leave the party immediately
When I could get guild mates together, and actually together, which was hard as hell because their idea of guild play was to join a group together, play solo, but queue for scenarios as a group then the only group play turned into Scenarios and just annoyed me more.
There were a few amazing moments when I got groups together for World RvR, there actually was competition, and we fought for what seemed like hours over objectives and keeps. From beta, to launch, to now though they have dropped in occurence drastically and it is only getting worse.
Originally posted by neonwire The bit highlighted in red made me laugh by the way. I liked that But yeah I agree with everything you say actually. I'm playing the game for the RvR as well and although the mini battlegrounds are fun I do think they are having a detrimental effect on what I want to be getting out of the game. The PvE is boring though and the sooner mmos stop churning out that crap the better. The lore fans shouldnt be disapointed though because as in any mmo all the lore actually is, is an online book split up into little patches of text and dotted around the game. Warhammer does that in the same way that any mmo does it. In Warhammer you dont need to read it to play the game and thats just the same with any mmo. Basicly the lore is as irrelevant to the game as it is with any other mmo. Like I said before, if reading the lore could somehow give me an insight into the game that I could act upon then I might actually bother to read it all but as its just meaningless fluff then I really dont give a shit about it. In fact I have turned into one of those "fast forward" people you mentioned when I'm playing these mmos because after a while my brain starts to get all melted and soggy from trying to pay attention to the meaningles drivel that passes as a quest explanation. I just look at the quest tracker now and see how many numbers I have to grind. I dont exhibit that behaviour with anything else. Very sad indeed. Heavy roleplayers always seem really desperate to me in these mmos as we all know that they cant actually do jack-shit so its beyond me why they even bother. I do like talking like a gobbo though just for the amusement factor but to create an entire history and background for your character and then try and engage someone in a conversation about the happenings of the gameworld......yikes now thats desperate. I suppose it could work if the plot of the game was that some evil wizard had frozen time and forced everything to repeat itself like groundhog day. I've read some posts by some people who say that they cant roleplay properly in WAR and yet I never thought you could roleplay properly in any mmo so I fail to see why they would have a problem. Just find someone who is willing to type crap into the text box and all should be well. Anyway I think stories are for single player games. They dont belong in mmos.
We share the exact same thoughts.
The point is that both roleplaying and lore taken alone are useless... it's through interaction (that is, gameplay specific mechanics) that each of them finds an active dimension.
Originally posted by neonwire The bit highlighted in red made me laugh by the way. I liked that But yeah I agree with everything you say actually. I'm playing the game for the RvR as well and although the mini battlegrounds are fun I do think they are having a detrimental effect on what I want to be getting out of the game. The PvE is boring though and the sooner mmos stop churning out that crap the better. The lore fans shouldnt be disapointed though because as in any mmo all the lore actually is, is an online book split up into little patches of text and dotted around the game. Warhammer does that in the same way that any mmo does it. In Warhammer you dont need to read it to play the game and thats just the same with any mmo. Basicly the lore is as irrelevant to the game as it is with any other mmo. Like I said before, if reading the lore could somehow give me an insight into the game that I could act upon then I might actually bother to read it all but as its just meaningless fluff then I really dont give a shit about it. In fact I have turned into one of those "fast forward" people you mentioned when I'm playing these mmos because after a while my brain starts to get all melted and soggy from trying to pay attention to the meaningles drivel that passes as a quest explanation. I just look at the quest tracker now and see how many numbers I have to grind. I dont exhibit that behaviour with anything else. Very sad indeed. Heavy roleplayers always seem really desperate to me in these mmos as we all know that they cant actually do jack-shit so its beyond me why they even bother. I do like talking like a gobbo though just for the amusement factor but to create an entire history and background for your character and then try and engage someone in a conversation about the happenings of the gameworld......yikes now thats desperate. I suppose it could work if the plot of the game was that some evil wizard had frozen time and forced everything to repeat itself like groundhog day. I've read some posts by some people who say that they cant roleplay properly in WAR and yet I never thought you could roleplay properly in any mmo so I fail to see why they would have a problem. Just find someone who is willing to type crap into the text box and all should be well. Anyway I think stories are for single player games. They dont belong in mmos.
We share the exact same thoughts.
The point is that both roleplaying and lore taken alone are useless... it's through interaction (that is, gameplay specific mechanics) that each of them finds an active dimension.
....and unfortunately great game mechanics that allow interesting interaction between players just dont exist in any mmo which is a real shame. As a result we get games like WAR where the only thing you can ever really do is climb up the level ladder along with everyone else. I wonder if we will ever see a decent mmo come out? They have stayed pretty much the same for the past 15 years or so....how many more years will it be before they actually move on from this tired old formulae?
Here's the thing. They give the player choices. Open RvR, PvE/PQ, Scenario. Pick one to level and you are free to forge your own destiny! Only the flaw in the design is that one of them offers a much faster rate of advancement, and ALL 3 of them require a large number of players to be fun, and offer a decent rate of advancement. Also from beta they raised the xp/rate of advancement drastically causing the PvE advancement to show drastic slowdown. So the result is 90% of the people playing just use the one method that offers the fastest and easiest rate of advancement leaving the other 10% scattered and largely unable to make the other two forms of advancement worthwhile and eventually joining in on the Scenario grinding. What's funny is back when the game was still in beta, I said that, despite how the game was designed, players would quickly zero in on the way that meant the fastest xp/leveling and then that would become the way everyone plays the game, other content be damned. A couple people told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that WAR's design would make that impossible and so forth... And yet here we are ... This isn't me patting myself on the back by any stretch. It didn't take any kind of brilliant insight predict it. Just the hind-sight to see how it's happened in every other MMO. Ah well, perhaps Mythic will find a way to balance it out. However, chances are one or two activities will still remain the most popular - will be deemed "the best path through the game". Those areas/activities will get the most players. Then, in turn, everyone else will just hop on the bandwagon and follow suit for fear of being left behind if they don't. New MMO. Same old story.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Here's the thing. They give the player choices. Open RvR, PvE/PQ, Scenario. Pick one to level and you are free to forge your own destiny! Only the flaw in the design is that one of them offers a much faster rate of advancement, and ALL 3 of them require a large number of players to be fun, and offer a decent rate of advancement. Also from beta they raised the xp/rate of advancement drastically causing the PvE advancement to show drastic slowdown. So the result is 90% of the people playing just use the one method that offers the fastest and easiest rate of advancement leaving the other 10% scattered and largely unable to make the other two forms of advancement worthwhile and eventually joining in on the Scenario grinding. What's funny is back when the game was still in beta, I said that, despite how the game was designed, players would quickly zero in on the way that meant the fastest xp/leveling and then that would become the way everyone plays the game, other content be damned. A couple people told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that WAR's design would make that impossible and so forth... And yet here we are ... This isn't me patting myself on the back by any stretch. It didn't take any kind of brilliant insight predict it. Just the hind-sight to see how it's happened in every other MMO. Ah well, perhaps Mythic will find a way to balance it out. However, chances are one or two activities will still remain the most popular - will be deemed "the best path through the game". Those areas/activities will get the most players. Then, in turn, everyone else will just hop on the bandwagon and follow suit for fear of being left behind if they don't. New MMO. Same old story.
Thats what they get for trying to cater to everyones style of play. If they had made the game a pure RvR game and ditched all the boring PvE questing bullshit which we have all seen in every other mmo then WAR could have been an awesome game. Instead its just average and feels like any other mainstream mmo. Oh well thats what happens when creativity gets thrown out the window in favour for what they think the masses want.
If I wanted to pve and do scenerios, I would do them in WOW. Which does pve better and scenarios about the same (but you don't because you are here. Your play style will have to change as will your expectations, and FYI the Scenarios in War are more creative and there are over all 8 more scenarios than WOW BGS. So I dont' really get how you can say they are about the same)
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
Agreed, we are "here" because of the RvR. If this game doesn't have it, then it becomes a poor man's WoW.
If I wanted to pve and do scenerios, I would do them in WOW. Which does pve better and scenarios about the same (but you don't because you are here. Your play style will have to change as will your expectations, and FYI the Scenarios in War are more creative and there are over all 8 more scenarios than WOW BGS. So I dont' really get how you can say they are about the same)
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
lol wait a minute.
So you are saying tha if a person doesn't do his/her research and goes to a movie expecting something but it's another thing then it's the fault of the creators of the movie?
How about it's his/her fault because he/she didn't do research.
So is that the way it is? People can't even bother to find out what something is about? And because they are unhappy because they didn't do their research there is no blame on their part?
That's like all the people in Lineage 2 who cried because they were being pk'ed. And yet, from the very start, the game was promoted as a hardcore game.
I"m sorry but people have to start claiming ownership for their lives and stop blaming others for their lack of effort.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If I wanted to pve and do scenerios, I would do them in WOW. Which does pve better and scenarios about the same (but you don't because you are here. Your play style will have to change as will your expectations, and FYI the Scenarios in War are more creative and there are over all 8 more scenarios than WOW BGS. So I dont' really get how you can say they are about the same)
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
So you are saying tha if a person doesn't do his/her research and goes to a movie expecting something but it's another thing then it's the fault of the creators of the movie?
That's the extent of it, yeah. If they advertised it as one thing and it turns out to be another, then yes, that is called bait and switch. Now if you say that you should look at reviews and talk to people playing the game before making a decision, I agree completely. But it does not alleviate the creator's culpability in false advertising their product.
If I wanted to pve and do scenerios, I would do them in WOW. Which does pve better and scenarios about the same (but you don't because you are here. Your play style will have to change as will your expectations, and FYI the Scenarios in War are more creative and there are over all 8 more scenarios than WOW BGS. So I dont' really get how you can say they are about the same)
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
So you are saying tha if a person doesn't do his/her research and goes to a movie expecting something but it's another thing then it's the fault of the creators of the movie?
That's the extent of it, yeah. If they advertised it as one thing and it turns out to be another, then yes, that is called bait and switch. Now if you say that you should look at reviews and talk to people playing the game before making a decision, I agree completely. But it does not alleviate the creator's culpability in false advertising their product.
I missed the part where you say they advertised it as one thing and it turned out to be another. If that is the case then of course that is wrong.
However, I always got from the Warhammer devs that PvE was secondary to PvP.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think some people are trying too hard to like WAR.
I don't think one has to try to hard to like it. It is a good game for those who are looking for this type of game.
Does it have issues? Sure. But I have not found anything that is game breaking. Some things that are a bit sloppy but for the most part I have found (and many others) it to be very fun.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think some people are trying too hard to like WAR.
I don't think one has to try to hard to like it. It is a good game for those who are looking for this type of game.
Does it have issues? Sure. But I have not found anything that is game breaking. Some things that are a bit sloppy but for the most part I have found (and many others) it to be very fun.
Comments
My god Ultima was wonderful, agreed.
And maybe yeah making a realistic Warhammer would have to be way too complex and multi-layered.
But the only beef one should have with this game is this, nothing else.
Well I'll accept to be sad but at least i will still have...
dreams to dream.
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My god Ultima was wonderful, agreed.
And maybe yeah making a realistic Warhammer would have to be way too complex and multi-layered.
But the only beef one should have with this game is this, nothing else.
Well I'll accept to be sad but at least i will still have...
dreams to dream.
I re-read my post and it sounded kind of offensive. It wasn't my intention, since I'm really in the same situation.
Ultima Online 98~04
Dark Age of Camelot 03~07
Final Fantasy XI 04~06
Guild Wars 05~08
World of Warcraft 04~05
Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
A valid reason for not liking warhammer at heart.
But i think you got some facts messed up. THe quests are everquest like quests, not wow type quests. Wow took everquests style for questing, along with mechanics and focus.
I think that your right that if you looking for more lore based "politics" or what have you, this game might not be what your looking for.
Remember the focus here is RvR.
While your right that what you do on your own has little effect on the enviroment or the lore, the RvR does effect certain aspects of the game, nothing serious though.
But yeah i think a lot of hardcore warhammer lore fans would be let down with the overall focus of the game being RvR and not lore based pve (that would realy make it wow like wouldn it?)
If you want pve based lore (war does have it, its just overshadowed by RvR) you may want to look at one of the many pve p2p games that follow this model, hell they all do it, this game was never meant to be that type of game.
remember that in the present mmo world (thanks wow) all games in the near future are going to be released to not appeal to the hardcore lore fan minority, but the genaric mass appeal.
Creating a game that coul really only be enjoyed with someone with a vast knowledge of warhammer lore, would be a recepie for a game with 20k subscriptions ( not to say the game wouldnt rock)
So since 2004 the trend has been set: substitute lore for mass appeal. Untill something rocks the boat and dethrones the game that set this trend, i wouldnt expect anything for the hardcore lore fans in any story based series.
Actually WAR delivers better written "lore" in the ToK than any other mmo. However I dont think thats what Gylfi was talking about. The "lore" that the game provides is essentially irrelavant fluff that doesnt have any impact at all on the experience of playing the game. It just provides snippets of stuff to read and to be honest I much prefer reading a book for that. I dont play online games just to read stuff unless that stuff is relevant to my game experience. Can I interact with the "lore" of the game? Nope.....cos its just fluff.
I think the reason why Gylfi and any other fans of Warhammer may feel let down is because the entire game is just so generic. It looks like Warhammer but it certainly doesnt feel like it. We can see all of this action going on and yet none of it can really be interacted with. I know this is generally the case with all other mmos but for some reason it just seems even more glaring to me in WAR. Maybe its because I have read quite a few of the books and I know what the tabletop games are like or maybe its simply because I have seen the whole level-grindy questy bollocks before and feel its all just getting old now.
Its just that I feel this game could have been something really interesting. Instead we seem to have ended up with another vanilla flavoured mmo that has been painted in the Warhammer theme colours. No matter what race or class I pick I actually find myself having no interest whatsoever in the actual game world itself. The awesome world of Warhammer has been reduced to yet another set of maps where people can grind up some more levels.
My housemate (who doesnt really play mmos) was watching me play WAR earlier and initially he was interested as he likes Warhammer. He watched as a mortar round exploded. He said "Wow! That looked neat. Can you get hit by mortar rounds?" I had to reply "No you cant". "Oh.....thats odd.....all those orcs and dwarves that are fighting each other.....can you get involved and influence the battle?". Again I had to reply "No you cant. Its just graphics and doesnt actually mean anything. Its not actually there". "Oh.....so whats the point of the game then if you cant effect anything?" I paused before saying "Well....errmm....its an mmo so there isnt any point really. You just go up levels and thats it" to which he replied "But thats fucking rubbish! Why are you playing a game in which you cant do anything?". I didnt really have an answer to that to be honest except to just shrug my shoulders and say "Dunno really. Its just an addiction thing I guess".
I'm continuing to play WAR because I paid for it so I want to get my moneys worth. Its odd because I know it isnt actually a good game at all and yet it does pull off some of the "mythical golden carrot" addictive qualities fairly well. I have a friend who also has WAR and he said that it feels more like he is trying to like it rather than actually really liking it. I think I sort of feel the same way too. I will probably carry on churning my way through it until hopefully something more interesting with a bit more depth comes along. Its also a sad fact that its actually the best mmo around at the moment unless I go back to playing some other older mmo. I'm drawing some fun out of it as the PvP battles can be entertaining but I'm really getting no sense at all of fighting in some epic war in the Warhammer world. It feels more like its just full of individuals busy climbing the levelling ladder on the same server that happens to look like Warhammer.
no offence taken at all
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I dont think ProfRed is at all bothered about people out-levelling him. Thats part of the point he was trying to make. He isnt interested in going up levels. Neither am I actually. WAR has the potential to be a pretty awesome RvR game. However because players have the choice to jump into scenarios or grind their way through tedious quests to gain exp, renown points, phat loot or whatever rewards the game can throw their way then they will choose the easist option to get them to the top quicker.
You keep saying things like "I can level well doing this" or "players can gain exp just as well doing this or that". I feel that the majority of WAR's gamers are thinking along the same lines......levels, levels, levels......more levels. Yes players can "level up" by doing anything but not everyone gets enjoyment from just "leveling up". I certainly dont and I'm sure there are plenty of mature people that want more from their gaming experience. The point is what are we all doing while we level up because gaining levels is just an after effect of playing the game. It shouldnt be the players objective should it? Isnt there something more to aim for other than the false satisfaction of achievement from dinging up to the next level?
Of course if the only reason you are playing the game is to collect stuff then sure people doing their own thing wont really effect you all that much as you will be cocooned in your own "level up bubble" and you will be happy as long as the exp keeps flowing in.......which it always will no matter what you do.
But for people who want to take part in an epic ongoing RvR war that covers the map then actually peoples obsession with scenarios, quests & levels will actually effect them. I was rather looking forward to some great RvR battles but because the game is split into 3 choices (as ProfRed said) it means that the real RvR aspect of the game just isnt anywhere near as good as it could be. Its really all because of the design of the game and the mentality of the playbase. There is no real incentive to fight over areas of the map in WAR because all people are interested in is what rewards they will receive. If players HAD to fight their way through areas to reach different places on the map to progress through the game then we might possibly have an awesome RvR war game taking place. Instead we have a game that is divided into seperate mini-games that are just a means to go up levels which seems like a shame to me.
Scenarios can be fun dont get me wrong but they DO have a negative effect on the RvR aspect of the game. Like you said though we should take the game for what it is.....afterall what else can we do? So yeah unfortunately WAR could be a really decent RvR mmo but instead its only another themepark where the players can choose the flavour of their levelling treadmill. Oh well there is still hope on the horizon I suppose.
A valid reason for not liking warhammer at heart.
But i think you got some facts messed up. THe quests are everquest like quests, not wow type quests. Wow took everquests style for questing, along with mechanics and focus.
I think that your right that if you looking for more lore based "politics" or what have you, this game might not be what your looking for.
Remember the focus here is RvR.
While your right that what you do on your own has little effect on the enviroment or the lore, the RvR does effect certain aspects of the game, nothing serious though.
But yeah i think a lot of hardcore warhammer lore fans would be let down with the overall focus of the game being RvR and not lore based pve (that would realy make it wow like wouldn it?)
If you want pve based lore (war does have it, its just overshadowed by RvR) you may want to look at one of the many pve p2p games that follow this model, hell they all do it, this game was never meant to be that type of game.
remember that in the present mmo world (thanks wow) all games in the near future are going to be released to not appeal to the hardcore lore fan minority, but the genaric mass appeal.
Creating a game that coul really only be enjoyed with someone with a vast knowledge of warhammer lore, would be a recepie for a game with 20k subscriptions ( not to say the game wouldnt rock)
So since 2004 the trend has been set: substitute lore for mass appeal. Untill something rocks the boat and dethrones the game that set this trend, i wouldnt expect anything for the hardcore lore fans in any story based series.
Actually WAR delivers better written "lore" in the ToK than any other mmo. However I dont think thats what Gylfi was talking about. The "lore" that the game provides is essentially irrelavant fluff that doesnt have any impact at all on the experience of playing the game. It just provides snippets of stuff to read and to be honest I much prefer reading a book for that. I dont play online games just to read stuff unless that stuff is relevant to my game experience. Can I interact with the "lore" of the game? Nope.....cos its just fluff.
I think the reason why Gylfi and any other fans of Warhammer may feel let down is because the entire game is just so generic. It looks like Warhammer but it certainly doesnt feel like it. We can see all of this action going on and yet none of it can really be interacted with. I know this is generally the case with all other mmos but for some reason it just seems even more glaring to me in WAR. Maybe its because I have read quite a few of the books and I know what the tabletop games are like or maybe its simply because I have seen the whole level-grindy questy bollocks before and feel its all just getting old now.
Its just that I feel this game could have been something really interesting. Instead we seem to have ended up with another vanilla flavoured mmo that has been painted in the Warhammer theme colours. No matter what race or class I pick I actually find myself having no interest whatsoever in the actual game world itself. The awesome world of Warhammer has been reduced to yet another set of maps where people can grind up some more levels.
My housemate (who doesnt really play mmos) was watching me play WAR earlier and initially he was interested as he likes Warhammer. He watched as a mortar round exploded. He said "Wow! That looked neat. Can you get hit by mortar rounds?" I had to reply "No you cant". "Oh.....thats odd.....all those orcs and dwarves that are fighting each other.....can you get involved and influence the battle?". Again I had to reply "No you cant. Its just graphics and doesnt actually mean anything. Its not actually there". "Oh.....so whats the point of the game then if you cant effect anything?" I paused before saying "Well....errmm....its an mmo so there isnt any point really. You just go up levels and thats it" to which he replied "But thats fucking rubbish! Why are you playing a game in which you cant do anything?". I didnt really have an answer to that to be honest except to just shrug my shoulders and say "Dunno really. Its just an addiction thing I guess".
I'm continuing to play WAR because I paid for it so I want to get my moneys worth. Its odd because I know it isnt actually a good game at all and yet it does pull off some of the "mythical golden carrot" addictive qualities fairly well. I have a friend who also has WAR and he said that it feels more like he is trying to like it rather than actually really liking it. I think I sort of feel the same way too. I will probably carry on churning my way through it until hopefully something more interesting with a bit more depth comes along. Its also a sad fact that its actually the best mmo around at the moment unless I go back to playing some other older mmo. I'm drawing some fun out of it as the PvP battles can be entertaining but I'm really getting no sense at all of fighting in some epic war in the Warhammer world. It feels more like its just full of individuals busy climbing the levelling ladder on the same server that happens to look like Warhammer.
All im saying is that like 95% (i love random statistics) of the playerbase is playing this game for the RvR, i bet a majority of them wouldnt care what lore they used. There is a small % of hardcore warhammer lore fans, and from what i can understand, is that they are dissapointed in the fact that the game isnt all about the lore.
I never said that warhammer online lacked the lore, its got a ton of pve content and lore i have yet to scratch the surface of.
Im just saying that a majority of the players are playing because the RvR is fun as hell (this ties back into the whole trend of making fun games rather than complex lore heavy games of the past)
The thing is that most these players will most likely ignore the lore, and the developers know this, you know the kind of player that "fast forwards" past quest text to get to the objective part.
but yeah they kind of have to "vanilla-fie" the game to appeal to the large majority of mmo players who just want to play a game that is fun mechanically, not fun like a book fun. This is what i descibe as the wow effect on the mmo community. Its not all about making a huge complex story based mmo with tons of lore, its all about making a fun game appealing to everyone, not just those who like to read quests and get involved with the lore (real role players ect)
hopefully one day in the future we will get a game with it all, right now though im just playing the game for what it is, a really fun rvr game (considering the only other really fun RvR game that was ever made is DAoC, the market is completely lacking this type of game)
i understand the letdown for the guys who love their lore and story based game objectives, but i wouldnt get you hopes up anytime soon (unless a new game is announced)
I like what you typed there. It was a breath of fresh air amongst the stale mediocrity that passes for the mmo genre that has grown up around us today. It made me smile.
Unfortunately I do feel that we could be waiting for a long time before a games company plucks up the courage to actually try feeding the masses something different. I think the lucky company that dares to put some intelligence into their mmo might be pleasantly surprised by the response they receive.
Oh to dream of an mmo where you can actually do something meaningful that isnt a static PvE quest or the pursuit of the next level. Of course I never expected anything like that from WAR but after playing it for the past week or two I'm beginning to get the yearning for an interesting and detailed mmo even more now.
A valid reason for not liking warhammer at heart.
But i think you got some facts messed up. THe quests are everquest like quests, not wow type quests. Wow took everquests style for questing, along with mechanics and focus.
I think that your right that if you looking for more lore based "politics" or what have you, this game might not be what your looking for.
Remember the focus here is RvR.
While your right that what you do on your own has little effect on the enviroment or the lore, the RvR does effect certain aspects of the game, nothing serious though.
But yeah i think a lot of hardcore warhammer lore fans would be let down with the overall focus of the game being RvR and not lore based pve (that would realy make it wow like wouldn it?)
If you want pve based lore (war does have it, its just overshadowed by RvR) you may want to look at one of the many pve p2p games that follow this model, hell they all do it, this game was never meant to be that type of game.
remember that in the present mmo world (thanks wow) all games in the near future are going to be released to not appeal to the hardcore lore fan minority, but the genaric mass appeal.
Creating a game that coul really only be enjoyed with someone with a vast knowledge of warhammer lore, would be a recepie for a game with 20k subscriptions ( not to say the game wouldnt rock)
So since 2004 the trend has been set: substitute lore for mass appeal. Untill something rocks the boat and dethrones the game that set this trend, i wouldnt expect anything for the hardcore lore fans in any story based series.
Actually WAR delivers better written "lore" in the ToK than any other mmo. However I dont think thats what Gylfi was talking about. The "lore" that the game provides is essentially irrelavant fluff that doesnt have any impact at all on the experience of playing the game. It just provides snippets of stuff to read and to be honest I much prefer reading a book for that. I dont play online games just to read stuff unless that stuff is relevant to my game experience. Can I interact with the "lore" of the game? Nope.....cos its just fluff.
I think the reason why Gylfi and any other fans of Warhammer may feel let down is because the entire game is just so generic. It looks like Warhammer but it certainly doesnt feel like it. We can see all of this action going on and yet none of it can really be interacted with. I know this is generally the case with all other mmos but for some reason it just seems even more glaring to me in WAR. Maybe its because I have read quite a few of the books and I know what the tabletop games are like or maybe its simply because I have seen the whole level-grindy questy bollocks before and feel its all just getting old now.
Its just that I feel this game could have been something really interesting. Instead we seem to have ended up with another vanilla flavoured mmo that has been painted in the Warhammer theme colours. No matter what race or class I pick I actually find myself having no interest whatsoever in the actual game world itself. The awesome world of Warhammer has been reduced to yet another set of maps where people can grind up some more levels.
My housemate (who doesnt really play mmos) was watching me play WAR earlier and initially he was interested as he likes Warhammer. He watched as a mortar round exploded. He said "Wow! That looked neat. Can you get hit by mortar rounds?" I had to reply "No you cant". "Oh.....thats odd.....all those orcs and dwarves that are fighting each other.....can you get involved and influence the battle?". Again I had to reply "No you cant. Its just graphics and doesnt actually mean anything. Its not actually there". "Oh.....so whats the point of the game then if you cant effect anything?" I paused before saying "Well....errmm....its an mmo so there isnt any point really. You just go up levels and thats it" to which he replied "But thats fucking rubbish! Why are you playing a game in which you cant do anything?". I didnt really have an answer to that to be honest except to just shrug my shoulders and say "Dunno really. Its just an addiction thing I guess".
I'm continuing to play WAR because I paid for it so I want to get my moneys worth. Its odd because I know it isnt actually a good game at all and yet it does pull off some of the "mythical golden carrot" addictive qualities fairly well. I have a friend who also has WAR and he said that it feels more like he is trying to like it rather than actually really liking it. I think I sort of feel the same way too. I will probably carry on churning my way through it until hopefully something more interesting with a bit more depth comes along. Its also a sad fact that its actually the best mmo around at the moment unless I go back to playing some other older mmo. I'm drawing some fun out of it as the PvP battles can be entertaining but I'm really getting no sense at all of fighting in some epic war in the Warhammer world. It feels more like its just full of individuals busy climbing the levelling ladder on the same server that happens to look like Warhammer.
All im saying is that like 95% (i love random statistics) of the playerbase is playing this game for the RvR, i bet a majority of them wouldnt care what lore they used. There is a small % of hardcore warhammer lore fans, and from what i can understand, is that they are dissapointed in the fact that the game isnt all about the lore.
I never said that warhammer online lacked the lore, its got a ton of pve content and lore i have yet to scratch the surface of.
Im just saying that a majority of the players are playing because the RvR is fun as hell (this ties back into the whole trend of making fun games rather than complex lore heavy games of the past)
The thing is that most these players will most likely ignore the lore, and the developers know this, you know the kind of player that "fast forwards" past quest text to get to the objective part.
but yeah they kind of have to "vanilla-fie" the game to appeal to the large majority of mmo players who just want to play a game that is fun mechanically, not fun like a book fun. This is what i descibe as the wow effect on the mmo community. Its not all about making a huge complex story based mmo with tons of lore, its all about making a fun game appealing to everyone, not just those who like to read quests and get involved with the lore (real role players ect)
hopefully one day in the future we will get a game with it all, right now though im just playing the game for what it is, a really fun rvr game (considering the only other really fun RvR game that was ever made is DAoC, the market is completely lacking this type of game)
i understand the letdown for the guys who love their lore and story based game objectives, but i wouldnt get you hopes up anytime soon (unless a new game is announced)
The bit highlighted in red made me laugh by the way. I liked that
But yeah I agree with everything you say actually. I'm playing the game for the RvR as well and although the mini battlegrounds are fun I do think they are having a detrimental effect on what I want to be getting out of the game. The PvE is boring though and the sooner mmos stop churning out that crap the better.
The lore fans shouldnt be disapointed though because as in any mmo all the lore actually is, is an online book split up into little patches of text and dotted around the game. Warhammer does that in the same way that any mmo does it. In Warhammer you dont need to read it to play the game and thats just the same with any mmo. Basicly the lore is as irrelevant to the game as it is with any other mmo. Like I said before, if reading the lore could somehow give me an insight into the game that I could act upon then I might actually bother to read it all but as its just meaningless fluff then I really dont give a shit about it. In fact I have turned into one of those "fast forward" people you mentioned when I'm playing these mmos because after a while my brain starts to get all melted and soggy from trying to pay attention to the meaningles drivel that passes as a quest explanation. I just look at the quest tracker now and see how many numbers I have to grind. I dont exhibit that behaviour with anything else. Very sad indeed.
Heavy roleplayers always seem really desperate to me in these mmos as we all know that they cant actually do jack-shit so its beyond me why they even bother. I do like talking like a gobbo though just for the amusement factor but to create an entire history and background for your character and then try and engage someone in a conversation about the happenings of the gameworld......yikes now thats desperate. I suppose it could work if the plot of the game was that some evil wizard had frozen time and forced everything to repeat itself like groundhog day.
I've read some posts by some people who say that they cant roleplay properly in WAR and yet I never thought you could roleplay properly in any mmo so I fail to see why they would have a problem. Just find someone who is willing to type crap into the text box and all should be well.
Anyway I think stories are for single player games. They dont belong in mmos.
I dont think ProfRed is at all bothered about people out-levelling him. Thats part of the point he was trying to make. He isnt interested in going up levels. Neither am I actually. WAR has the potential to be a pretty awesome RvR game. However because players have the choice to jump into scenarios or grind their way through tedious quests to gain exp, renown points, phat loot or whatever rewards the game can throw their way then they will choose the easist option to get them to the top quicker.
You keep saying things like "I can level well doing this" or "players can gain exp just as well doing this or that". I feel that the majority of WAR's gamers are thinking along the same lines......levels, levels, levels......more levels. Yes players can "level up" by doing anything but not everyone gets enjoyment from just "leveling up". I certainly dont and I'm sure there are plenty of mature people that want more from their gaming experience. The point is what are we all doing while we level up because gaining levels is just an after effect of playing the game. It shouldnt be the players objective should it? Isnt there something more to aim for other than the false satisfaction of achievement from dinging up to the next level?
Of course if the only reason you are playing the game is to collect stuff then sure people doing their own thing wont really effect you all that much as you will be cocooned in your own "level up bubble" and you will be happy as long as the exp keeps flowing in.......which it always will no matter what you do.
But for people who want to take part in an epic ongoing RvR war that covers the map then actually peoples obsession with scenarios, quests & levels will actually effect them. I was rather looking forward to some great RvR battles but because the game is split into 3 choices (as ProfRed said) it means that the real RvR aspect of the game just isnt anywhere near as good as it could be. Its really all because of the design of the game and the mentality of the playbase. There is no real incentive to fight over areas of the map in WAR because all people are interested in is what rewards they will receive. If players HAD to fight their way through areas to reach different places on the map to progress through the game then we might possibly have an awesome RvR war game taking place. Instead we have a game that is divided into seperate mini-games that are just a means to go up levels which seems like a shame to me.
Scenarios can be fun dont get me wrong but they DO have a negative effect on the RvR aspect of the game. Like you said though we should take the game for what it is.....afterall what else can we do? So yeah unfortunately WAR could be a really decent RvR mmo but instead its only another themepark where the players can choose the flavour of their levelling treadmill. Oh well there is still hope on the horizon I suppose.
Yeah I could care less about anyone else's levels. I just know that the one part of the game that really draws me in is the world RvR. Just like world PvP was the one aspect of WoW that kept me logging in. Sure people can still world PvP in WoW and world RvR in Warhammer but they just barely ever do anymore. Everyone in both games grinds scenarios/bg's, mostly solo PvE's, etc. Most players are detached and barely ever talk. I was on a RP server too and people barely talked. I kept talking anyway but over half the parties I was in someone would be a jerk and either:
a) Make fun of me if I was RP'ing,
b) If I was giving orders to try and organize us someone would always complain about someone giving orders, and half the time they would be fighting a tank with two healers up on a hill behind him,
c) Get their objective then leave the party immediately
When I could get guild mates together, and actually together, which was hard as hell because their idea of guild play was to join a group together, play solo, but queue for scenarios as a group then the only group play turned into Scenarios and just annoyed me more.
There were a few amazing moments when I got groups together for World RvR, there actually was competition, and we fought for what seemed like hours over objectives and keeps. From beta, to launch, to now though they have dropped in occurence drastically and it is only getting worse.
We share the exact same thoughts.
The point is that both roleplaying and lore taken alone are useless... it's through interaction (that is, gameplay specific mechanics) that each of them finds an active dimension.
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We share the exact same thoughts.
The point is that both roleplaying and lore taken alone are useless... it's through interaction (that is, gameplay specific mechanics) that each of them finds an active dimension.
....and unfortunately great game mechanics that allow interesting interaction between players just dont exist in any mmo which is a real shame. As a result we get games like WAR where the only thing you can ever really do is climb up the level ladder along with everyone else. I wonder if we will ever see a decent mmo come out? They have stayed pretty much the same for the past 15 years or so....how many more years will it be before they actually move on from this tired old formulae?
It's the same quesiton I ask myself everytime.
Usually I stay optimistic and think that "something has been already set in motion"
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and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Thats what they get for trying to cater to everyones style of play. If they had made the game a pure RvR game and ditched all the boring PvE questing bullshit which we have all seen in every other mmo then WAR could have been an awesome game. Instead its just average and feels like any other mainstream mmo. Oh well thats what happens when creativity gets thrown out the window in favour for what they think the masses want.
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
Agreed, we are "here" because of the RvR. If this game doesn't have it, then it becomes a poor man's WoW.
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
lol wait a minute.
So you are saying tha if a person doesn't do his/her research and goes to a movie expecting something but it's another thing then it's the fault of the creators of the movie?
How about it's his/her fault because he/she didn't do research.
So is that the way it is? People can't even bother to find out what something is about? And because they are unhappy because they didn't do their research there is no blame on their part?
That's like all the people in Lineage 2 who cried because they were being pk'ed. And yet, from the very start, the game was promoted as a hardcore game.
I"m sorry but people have to start claiming ownership for their lives and stop blaming others for their lack of effort.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
So you are saying tha if a person doesn't do his/her research and goes to a movie expecting something but it's another thing then it's the fault of the creators of the movie?
That's the extent of it, yeah. If they advertised it as one thing and it turns out to be another, then yes, that is called bait and switch. Now if you say that you should look at reviews and talk to people playing the game before making a decision, I agree completely. But it does not alleviate the creator's culpability in false advertising their product.
You know, I disagreed with a lot of what you said and I was just going to leave it at that but this is ridiculous. You're basically saying that, as a customer, this guy should change his desires to meet the reality of the product.
That's like taking a trip to the movies to see an action film, only to find out it's a romantic comedy. When you complain about it, somebody tells you that it's not the movies fault, it's your fault and that you need to adjust your preferences. This has to be the most ridiculous and probably least intelligent thing I've seen on these forums.
So you are saying tha if a person doesn't do his/her research and goes to a movie expecting something but it's another thing then it's the fault of the creators of the movie?
That's the extent of it, yeah. If they advertised it as one thing and it turns out to be another, then yes, that is called bait and switch. Now if you say that you should look at reviews and talk to people playing the game before making a decision, I agree completely. But it does not alleviate the creator's culpability in false advertising their product.
I missed the part where you say they advertised it as one thing and it turned out to be another. If that is the case then of course that is wrong.
However, I always got from the Warhammer devs that PvE was secondary to PvP.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think some people are trying too hard to like WAR.
I don't think one has to try to hard to like it. It is a good game for those who are looking for this type of game.
Does it have issues? Sure. But I have not found anything that is game breaking. Some things that are a bit sloppy but for the most part I have found (and many others) it to be very fun.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't think one has to try to hard to like it. It is a good game for those who are looking for this type of game.
Does it have issues? Sure. But I have not found anything that is game breaking. Some things that are a bit sloppy but for the most part I have found (and many others) it to be very fun.
This game has been smashed already, let it go