Doing same thing over and over again to train your skills up...maybe?
The mechanics behind the game is unchanged - you have to grind your skills/levels/equippment, w/e to progress in game.
This is unproven, for one we have no idea how long it will take to raise your skills, and two it's been stated that having higher level skills will not make a game winning difference. This in not a 6-12 month leveling game like Lineage 2, where you are forced to gain enormous amounts of xp just to be able to play the game, or like wow where you are forced to due repetitive tasks over and over to be able to "play the game". There are no levels and gear will be allegedly quite easy to procure, so where is the grind?
That being said if this games like eve, you may need to grind money, even so this having a small amount of grind in now infers a grind-fest. You could play thru the game being an explorer and never raise a single skill and still have a great time. There is no imperative to raise any skills in DF, or for that matter to do anything in particular.
I dispute your claim sir, on a basis of lack of evidence supporting it, as well as a fair amount of evidence supporting the contrary.
We are years away from a true Sandbox MMO. I will probaly say that Oblivion Online will be the first. Darkfall will not even be close.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Originally posted by BlackWizards This is unproven, for one we have no idea how long it will take to raise your skills, and two it's been stated that having higher level skills will not make a game winning difference. This in not a 6-12 month leveling game like Lineage 2, where you are forced to gain enormous amounts of xp just to be able to play the game, or like wow where you are forced to due repetitive tasks over and over to be able to "play the game". There are no levels and gear will be allegedly quite easy to procure, so where is the grind? That being said if this games like eve, you may need to grind money, even so this having a small amount of grind in now infers a grind-fest. You could play thru the game being an explorer and never raise a single skill and still have a great time. There is no imperative to raise any skills in DF, or for that matter to do anything in particular. I dispute your claim sir, on a basis of lack of evidence supporting it, as well as a fair amount of evidence supporting the contrary.
Since there is no game yet, there are no proofs about anything, however all hints given by devs are pro gindfest. As Devs said countless time, DF is based on UO and UO is grind game all way long.
Well, you mind to explain what 1000 planned skills are for when they 'will not make a game winning difference'?
Skills purely define what your character is capable of. Do you really think skills won't make any difference? Let's be reasonable...
This Tasos quote from interview posted on lordsofdeath.com pretty much sums up well what the game is gonna look like:
'The idea of the game is to provide something enjoyable for every niche of player. To not only give them something they cant help but continue (investment into a grind), but to allow them to enjoy the diversity of theyre choices.'
'The idea of the game is to provide something enjoyable for every niche of player. To not only give them something they can’t help but continue (investment into a grind), but to allow them to enjoy the diversity of they’re choices.'
This dev comment counters pro grind argument.
Instead of having to grind out a level to compete with someone else there will be "a diversity of choices".
I read it that way, for example , i get me the mix of skills that are unique to me, or do something else as being competitive to exactly something what someone else is - If someone is good in let say using his bow , i ll go and get me some mastership in fishing , if the Bow master has never fished i will be better then him with the first fish i catch.
Or i get me shield skill and the bow master never hit me. The point is i can be competetive in more ways to someone else then me having the exact level of someone else, thus i don't have necessary to grind something out for feeling good like in WoW and WoW clones.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
This dev comment counters pro grind argument. Instead of having to grind out a level to compete with someone else there will be "a diversity of choices". I read it that way, for example , i get me the mix of skills that are unique to me, or do something else as being competitive to exactly something what someone else is - If someone is good in let say using his bow , i ll go and get me some mastership in fishing , if the Bow master has never fished i will be better then him with the first fish i catch. Or i get me shield skill and the bow master never hit me. The point is i can be competetive in more ways to someone else then me having the exact level of someone else, thus i don't have necessary to grind something out for feeling good like in WoW and WoW clones.
Comment does not counter anything nor it changes anything about the fact the game is gonna be a grindfest.
It is a grind game, fair enough, it does not mean it is a bad game but it won't be a sandbox game since the game concept is pretty much the same as nowadays MMORPGs.
The game seems interesting, it would be very refreshing to see some 'old hard-core' RPG again but I refuse to fall to hype - dreaming instead of reading and glorify the game that is not even in any form of public beta.
We are years away from a true Sandbox MMO. I will probaly say that Oblivion Online will be the first. Darkfall will not even be close.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Sandbox is where a player exists in a gaming world where the content is dynamic and changes around the player. In otherwords players actions have a direct impact on the environment and people around you. It's also about character freedom and progression and not being restricted by elements of the game. Theme Park MMO's differ in this regard as they only allow one direction of progression. They may have different paths, say different classes etc but they all point in the same direction and don't have the freedom to allow you to change if and when you want to. The world is also static and rarely changes, if I log out today and log back on in a weeks time, they are still fixing that bridge in Lakeshire and still rebuilding those houses at Sentinel Hill, nothing changes.
SWG & UO where very basic sandboxes as they gave freedom for the player to choose their own direction and develop their character their own way. However as I said I think these were very basic sandboxes and do lack severely in certain areas.
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
Originally posted by weg886 sandbox games was missing one major thing in mmos years ago and one thing only. That is the sandbox games did not have no good combat systems and no good graphics. If they had this i can bet that almost everyone would still be playing that game right now. Sandbox games rule because you can live in that type of game. Not just get loot off monsters ,, but have a real job to.
I disagree on this. UO had to my eyes maybe a simple but very balanced combat system(pre AoS). Beyond a certain level of complexity it does not add more fun .... it only adds arbitrariness. Just take chess as an example, by 6 different types of chess pieces and bunch of simple movement rules for these chess pieces a complexity is spawn, that makes it one of the most fascinating games in the world. Now, lets have a "improved chess" with 60 different types chess pieces ... i promise you, i would not be fun anymore.
Now with sandboxes its the same. Simple Rules, Complex Consequences and Opportunities, thats what makes it a burner.
I think the reason, why theme park games became so fashioned is more about the target market. Before WoW, MMOs aimed for quite mature computer freaks, that have played RPG and Simulations for some years and now wanted to do that online. With the sucess of WoW, the industry now aims for people, who have not realy played any of these games but maybe just start with the MMO as their first computer game. I guess these people are just overwhelmed by the level of complexity a sandbox game has, they want the easy clicky-clicky and not a 6 month period of understanding the game setup. This does not make them dumber or something. You would also not start learning to fly airplanes in a jumbo jet but start with a chesna, right ?
But now with 10+ Millions MMO players,many of them have gained their experiences with their first MMO and they are looking for more than just collecting 10 hear's-ears and 5 porcupine quills in order to get that purple kitchen knife of doom ....
So yes its an evoultion, but more an evolution of the target market, which opens the opprtunity to find fundings for developing a state of the art sandbox MMO
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
Also a ideal sandbox fills every functionality with player and their actions and there is not a single NPC around. Same applies to "mobs" to hunt. In ideal sandbox those have to be real player.
With PvP everywhere and full loot DarkFall fulfills somewhat these condition. As for animals and monster mobs , real players wouldn't want to play them but DarkFall devs promised that they will migrate and interact with player actions (if at one location one type of Mob get hunted over and over it will extinct there and move elsewhere etc.)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
We are years away from a true Sandbox MMO. I will probaly say that Oblivion Online will be the first. Darkfall will not even be close.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Sandbox is where a player exists in a gaming world where the content is dynamic and changes around the player. In otherwords players actions have a direct impact on the environment and people around you. It's also about character freedom and progression and not being restricted by elements of the game. Theme Park MMO's differ in this regard as they only allow one direction of progression. They may have different paths, say different classes etc but they all point in the same direction and don't have the freedom to allow you to change if and when you want to. The world is also static and rarely changes, if I log out today and log back on in a weeks time, they are still fixing that bridge in Lakeshire and still rebuilding those houses at Sentinel Hill, nothing changes.
SWG & UO where very basic sandboxes as they gave freedom for the player to choose their own direction and develop their character their own way. However as I said I think these were very basic sandboxes and do lack severely in certain areas.
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
So... you want to play a single person in a form of Simcity Online? Alright, but you had better start developing it now if you want to play within the next 25 years. The complexity of the AI programming to make what you are suggesting work would take many years to program by itself. Really, to create a game like this would take virtually unlimted funds and time, no matter how good technology gets.
Edit: That said, I would be delighted to see someone pull it off.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
We are years away from a true Sandbox MMO. I will probaly say that Oblivion Online will be the first. Darkfall will not even be close.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Sandbox is where a player exists in a gaming world where the content is dynamic and changes around the player. In otherwords players actions have a direct impact on the environment and people around you. It's also about character freedom and progression and not being restricted by elements of the game. Theme Park MMO's differ in this regard as they only allow one direction of progression. They may have different paths, say different classes etc but they all point in the same direction and don't have the freedom to allow you to change if and when you want to. The world is also static and rarely changes, if I log out today and log back on in a weeks time, they are still fixing that bridge in Lakeshire and still rebuilding those houses at Sentinel Hill, nothing changes.
SWG & UO where very basic sandboxes as they gave freedom for the player to choose their own direction and develop their character their own way. However as I said I think these were very basic sandboxes and do lack severely in certain areas.
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
According to you.. then, WAR would be a sandbox game.. because the players SHAPE the world (who controls what.. etc)..
But it's not.
A sandbox game.. is a game where you aren't told where to go. A place that lets you do what you want. There is no "set" leveling path, or Zone for you to level. .. Hell.. there can be NO leveling even. The point
There are no "classes", just career choices a player can make. That's what makes a true sand box..
I'm confused, First time i hear about the "Sandbox" concept i was looking at the Wikypedia and thought i understand something,
Now i see that each one have a different concept.
I read in this thread idealized utopias about a game when you can do what you want. Do you think it is posible? I dont think so. There will be allways limits.
I read things like "no grind at all" "no leveling". I can't think it is posible in an mmorpg environment. You will need to work for resources, you will need to level your skills.
I read opinions that make a Sandbox game closer to a FPS game that a MMORPG. I read here opinions about how some aspects have to be in a Sandbox game that fit perfectly in how these aspects were in the "theme park" "grinding feasts" "linear games" i have been playing.
At the end thought its all just about degrees, isnt it?
Comment does not counter anything nor it changes anything about the fact the game is gonna be a grindfest. It is a grind game, fair enough, it does not mean it is a bad game but it won't be a sandbox game since the game concept is pretty much the same as nowadays MMORPGs. The game seems interesting, it would be very refreshing to see some 'old hard-core' RPG again but I refuse to fall to hype - dreaming instead of reading and glorify the game that is not even in any form of public beta.
Grindfest or not! The way in which skills are improved has absolutely no bearing on whether a game is considered "sandbox." Themepark and sandbox differences refer only to the direction a player is given from the game itself, or lack there of. All MMORPGs have some form of grind included, its the main aspect that defines the gameplay differences between RPGs and other genres.
That being said, having to grind out anything, without being told to do so, further supports that Darkfall is a sandbox MMO. On the contrary, a themepark game would simply tell you what to grind, how many, for how long, and/or where to do it.
Think about what the term, "sandbox," even refers to. A sandbox is an area in which someone can manipulate the materials provided, usually sand, and entertain one's self. You can pick it up and throw it in someone's eyes, make a castle, write in it, pee in it, etc. Even, if you do it more than once, that doesn't make it any less of a sandbox.
Themepark is a word which by the way fails to describe the gameplay most accurately (a better term would be "Linear") . These give you very specific instructions in order to advance through the game. They even point you to the next NPC for further direction when you have completed a certain area. These games are the mainstream of today's MMORPG market.
Some examples of "Sandbox" games:
Ultima Online
Everquest
Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-NGE)
EVE Online
"Themepark" or "Linear" games:
World of Warcraft
Everquest 2
Star Wars Galaxies (NGE Version)
Lord of the Rings Online
Age of Conan
Warhammer Online
You'll notice that SWG is listed twice, with its status change in parenthesis. The battle between Sandbox vs. Themeparks is responsible for what was the most controversial patch in MMO history. For those who have never played in the genre before WoW's release are truly missing out. The fans of SWG cried out in agony for good reason.
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sorry I think that's a little elitist.
I've seen people make that statement before and it smacks more of "my way of life and my goals are more right and others are not".
The average person doesn't follow forums or game boards or have a lot of time to spend in games. The average person wants to enjoy some adventures and log out and do other things.
To spend an entire game session finding any meaningful quests or crafting or looking for a group is not their idea of fun. And more power to them I say.
Seriously, how can you sell a game to the average person when you say "well, you might spend 2 hours just finding the right group so you can go in a dungeon and kill the same monsters over and over for another few hours, then you will gather your mats and craft for 30 minutes so you can make components to make equipment you wil then try to sell to players.
They might respond back "2 hours?!?!?!"
they might have an hour. Maybe more some days, maybe less on others. Running for 20 minutes to get somewhere or to search for a spawn point is not going to sell them on the concept of "time well spent". I've played these games and it's hard to believe that I've spent time sitting at my computer crafting (which I despise" just so I can make money to equip myself with consumables so that I can grind a bit.
Games like WoW give average people a chance to play a bit, have some adventures and then log off. What? What's that you say? WoW is the biggest grind because of the endgame raiding? Well, thing is, only gamers do that. Raid 5 days a week for hours? Average person doesn't do that. They have things to do and can (and do) enjoy Wow for what it is when they can.
Sandbox games are great for people who have a lot of time or don't mind spending the time they do have on very specific things. Doesn't mean they are more creative (and quite frankly, I think the person who spends 1 hour in WoW and then logs off to paint or sculpt or play in a band or write is the one who is more creative) or smarter or any of those things. Quite frankly I think it means they have good and very real goals and have their priorities straight.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sorry I think that's a little elitist.
I've seen people make that statement before and it smacks more of "my way of life and my goals are more right and others are not".
The average person doesn't follow forums or game boards or have a lot of time to spend in games. The average person wants to enjoy some adventures and log out and do other things.
To spend an entire game session finding any meaningful quests or crafting or looking for a group is not their idea of fun. And more power to them I say.
Seriously, how can you sell a game to the average person when you say "well, you might spend 2 hours just finding the right group so you can go in a dungeon and kill the same monsters over and over for another few hours, then you will gather your mats and craft for 30 minutes so you can make components to make equipment you wil then try to sell to players.
They might respond back "2 hours?!?!?!"
they might have an hour. Maybe more some days, maybe less on others. Running for 20 minutes to get somewhere or to search for a spawn point is not going to sell them on the concept of "time well spent". I've played these games and it's hard to believe that I've spent time sitting at my computer crafting (which I despise" just so I can make money to equip myself with consumables so that I can grind a bit.
Games like WoW give average people a chance to play a bit, have some adventures and then log off. What? What's that you say? WoW is the biggest grind because of the endgame raiding? Well, thing is, only gamers do that. Raid 5 days a week for hours? Average person doesn't do that. They have things to do and can (and do) enjoy Wow for what it is when they can.
Sandbox games are great for people who have a lot of time or don't mind spending the time they do have on very specific things. Doesn't mean they are more creative (and quite frankly, I think the person who spends 1 hour in WoW and then logs off to paint or sculpt or play in a band or write is the one who is more creative) or smarter or any of those things. Quite frankly I think it means they have good and very real goals and have their priorities straight.
If you can only play for an hour or less at a time why on earth would pay a subscription fee when you could be playing a different type of multiplayer game that you only pay for once and isn't so time consuming?
I can't honestly say I have ever met anyone in a mmorpg who plays like this, normally people play for most of an evening a few times a week.
You wouldn't be taking full advantage the features mmorpgs provide, you wouldn't have enough time.
If I could only play in one hour sessions a couple of times a week then there is no way I would bother playing a mmorpg.
There are mulitudes of other types of games, many with peristant elements, that do not require a sub that are more suited to this style of play.
If you can only play for an hour or less at a time why on earth would pay a subscription fee when you could be playing a different type of multiplayer game that you only pay for once and isn't so time consuming? I can't honestly say I have ever met anyone in a mmorpg who plays like this, normally people play for most of an evening a few times a week. You wouldn't be taking full advantage the features mmorpgs provide, you wouldn't have enough time. If I could only play in one hour sessions a couple of times a week then there is no way I would bother playing a mmorpg. You do realise that there are mulitudes of other types of games, many with peristant elements, that do not require a sub that are more suited to this style of play?
I'm sorry but what you are saying doesn't matter. Not that your opinion is invalid but you are essentially saying that if a person doesn't fall into your criteria they should be doing something else.
I've never understood this mode of thinking. It's like the "I need solo content"/"If you want solo content you shouldn't be paying to play an mmo" arguement.
It doesn't matter whether I play 15 mintues or 15 hours or 150 hours. It only matters that I (or the player) wants to play and is willing to pay.
If I can only log into a game for an hour at a time (and quite frankly sometimes I CAN only log in for an hour at a time) then I am going to find a game that allows me to do that.
In no way, shape or form am I saying that all games need to cater to this tyep of time usage. But a game like WoW or LOTRO does allow one to do that.
And, since I already said I was willing to pay for access to these game then that should be enough.
And this is why games like WoW are so popular. I'm sorry but the average person does not log into an online game in the same way that many of you (or me) do. They do not play 7 hours on a Saturday.
And since I can log into WoW or LOTRO for a small bit, do some things that are fun and log off then it is time well spent.
You can't in any seriousness lay down a proclamation that the only way to enjoy an online game is to play "x" hours. That might be for you but not for others. And again, since they are willing to pay then it makes the point moot.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Wow does not allow you to do that unless you never intend to reach max level and do not run dungeons or do much of anything else.
It takes 15 days of played time to reach max level so you would just be hitting level 60 about now if you only played 3 hours a week and would have missed the vast majority of the content.
I can't find these people in game who are just hitting 60 now after starting at launch, therefore I conclude that they don't exist! Or are less than 1% of total wow players maybe.
Either you play much more than you are admitting or you have missed a huge proportion of the content and would probably better off playing something else.
Sandboxes are not more time intensive than themeparks, in fact probably less so.
Hate to break it to ya, man, but I could (can) log into pre-CU SWG (best sandbox MMO ever designed, IMO) and find PLENTY of things to do if I only had a few minutes to play.
Sandboxes offer more variety as far as activities within the game go.
Only have a few minutes to play? You don't NEED to group, or quest. Maybe work on decorating your house, or your shop, or stock your vendors, or do a bit of crafting, or some quick space combat, or any of a million things that can be done in a virtual world game model.
People like to try to say that a sandbox game can't offer instant gratification, and I say that they must have never played one.
I remember back in 1999, folks kept asking me if I was stockpiling food. I always answered, "No, I'm stockpiling ammo and making a list of people who are stockpiling food"
Originally posted by bws1980 Grindfest or not! The way in which skills are improved has absolutely no bearing on whether a game is considered "sandbox." Themepark and sandbox differences refer only to the direction a player is given from the game itself, or lack there of. All MMORPGs have some form of grind included, its the main aspect that defines the gameplay differences between RPGs and other genres. That being said, having to grind out anything, without being told to do so, further supports that Darkfall is a sandbox MMO. On the contrary, a themepark game would simply tell you what to grind, how many, for how long, and/or where to do it. Think about what the term, "sandbox," even refers to. A sandbox is an area in which someone can manipulate the materials provided, usually sand, and entertain one's self. You can pick it up and throw it in someone's eyes, make a castle, write in it, pee in it, etc. Even, if you do it more than once, that doesn't make it any less of a sandbox. Themepark is a word which by the way fails to describe the gameplay most accurately (a better term would be "Linear") . These give you very specific instructions in order to advance through the game. They even point you to the next NPC for further direction when you have completed a certain area. These games are the mainstream of today's MMORPG market. Some examples of "Sandbox" games:
You'll notice that SWG is listed twice, with its status change in parenthesis. The battle between Sandbox vs. Themeparks is responsible for what was the most controversial patch in MMO history. For those who have never played in the genre before WoW's release are truly missing out. The fans of SWG cried out in agony for good reason. Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
No need to say anything more than read bold text in your post.
Wow does not allow you to do that unless you never intend to reach max level and do not run dungeons or do much of anything else. It takes 15 days of played time to reach max level so you would just be hitting level 60 about now if you only played 3 hours a week and would have missed the vast majority of the content. Either you play much more than you are admitting or you have missed a huge proportion of the content and would probably better off playing something else. Sandboxes are not more time intensive than themeparks, in fact probably less so.
Again, you are trying to base everything on how you see the game. Of all the players I know who play woW non of them run raids. They log in to do the quests with their families and friends.
So, if a Raid is going to take hours then that is obviously a part of the game that will be closed off to them (and me as I don't play WoW that much).
But you are assuming that the players who play WoW will "of course" want to get into raids and high lvl content. This is because many players see these games as "end game" games. But again, you can enjoy the content of WoW or LOTRO without doing these things.
As an example, the Book Quests in LOTRO sometimes require a group. Sometimes I can get a group or even help from guild members and sometimes "not". No problem there, I just do other things. I can happily say I have a lvl 50 Guardian which I started when the game was released and I am exactly on book 5 of the book quests which span 14 books.
That's ok by me as I can enjoy many other aspects of the game. So yes, there are things in online games that take greater effort and time. But one doesn't have always do those things. That's the beauty of online games.
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Wow does not allow you to do that unless you never intend to reach max level and do not run dungeons or do much of anything else. It takes 15 days of played time to reach max level so you would just be hitting level 60 about now if you only played 3 hours a week and would have missed the vast majority of the content. Either you play much more than you are admitting or you have missed a huge proportion of the content and would probably better off playing something else. Sandboxes are not more time intensive than themeparks, in fact probably less so.
Again, you are trying to base everything on how you see the game. Of all the players I know who play woW non of them run raids. They log in to do the quests with their families and friends.
So, if a Raid is going to take hours then that is obviously a part of the game that will be closed off to them (and me as I don't play WoW that much).
But you are assuming that the players who play WoW will "of course" want to get into raids and high lvl content. This is because many players see these games as "end game" games. But again, you can enjoy the content of WoW or LOTRO without doing these things.
As an example, the Book Quests in LOTRO sometimes require a group. Sometimes I can get a group or even help from guild members and sometimes "not". No problem there, I just do other things. I can happily say I have a lvl 50 Guardian which I started when the game was released and I am exactly on book 5 of the book quests which span 14 books.
That's ok by me as I can enjoy many other aspects of the game. So yes, there are things in online games that take greater effort and time. But one doesn't have always do those things. That's the beauty of online games.
If you play like that then that is fair enough, but in reality you are in the extreme minority of mmorpg gamers.
From my wow experience, which I played for several years, most people have 1 or more max level characters.
You cannot realistically say your example of the typical mmorpg gamer is accurate.
The fact that most people even reach max level shows that it is not true.
After Wotlk releases I would guess that most people will have a max level character within 3 months, as was the case with BC, so clearly they must be playing much more than an hour here and there.
If this is not the case then why is WoW chock full of full epic 70's and there are hardly any low levels?
Wow does not allow you to do that unless you never intend to reach max level and do not run dungeons or do much of anything else. It takes 15 days of played time to reach max level so you would just be hitting level 60 about now if you only played 3 hours a week and would have missed the vast majority of the content. Either you play much more than you are admitting or you have missed a huge proportion of the content and would probably better off playing something else. Sandboxes are not more time intensive than themeparks, in fact probably less so.
Again, you are trying to base everything on how you see the game. Of all the players I know who play woW non of them run raids. They log in to do the quests with their families and friends.
So, if a Raid is going to take hours then that is obviously a part of the game that will be closed off to them (and me as I don't play WoW that much).
But you are assuming that the players who play WoW will "of course" want to get into raids and high lvl content. This is because many players see these games as "end game" games. But again, you can enjoy the content of WoW or LOTRO without doing these things.
As an example, the Book Quests in LOTRO sometimes require a group. Sometimes I can get a group or even help from guild members and sometimes "not". No problem there, I just do other things. I can happily say I have a lvl 50 Guardian which I started when the game was released and I am exactly on book 5 of the book quests which span 14 books.
That's ok by me as I can enjoy many other aspects of the game. So yes, there are things in online games that take greater effort and time. But one doesn't have always do those things. That's the beauty of online games.
If you play like that then that is fair enough, but in reality you are in the extreme minority of mmorpg gamers.
From my wow experience, which I played for several years, most people have 1 or more max level characters.
You cannot realistically say your example of the typical mmorpg gamer is accurate.
The fact that most people even reach max level shows that it is not true.
After Wotlk releases I would guess that most people will have a max level character within 3 months, as was the case with BC, so clearly they must be playing much more than an hour here and there.
If this is not the case then why is WoW chock full of full epic 70's and there are hardly any low levels?
The people I know who play WoW have families, they play with their kids, or they Are office workers who have max lvl characters but don't fret about the whole raiding/gear thing.
There is a reason that a game like WoW has 10 million players. MMO's were out before WoW. But WoW allows for casual play in a relatively bug free game.
The problem with your statem is the term mmorpg gamer. The average person is not really an mmorpg gamer. They are people who have been turned on to online games.
And as far as the other gentleman who stated that he could log into SWG and do meaningful things in a few mintues, that's great. I can't doubt it. I could log into Lineage 2 and make some shots in a few minutes.
But the average person - read: not gamer - average person wants a very focused gameplay experience so that he/she can log on, do something that is very fun and then get on with his or her life.
There is a reason that games are moving away from sandbox play, time sink sort of games. It's not because people are stupid (well, of course there are stupid people but I"m not going to lambaste society based upon whether they like sandbox or linear games) but because they have other things to do and the games they play need to support that.
edit: I'll add that society is no more dumb or slow or bad than it was 50 years ago. People didn't suddenly become unimaginative and can't understand the concept of the sandbox game.
What I think happened is that the people who were turned on to these games were the people who were turned onto computers and the web. It was a novel idea.
I'm sure there must have been many people who tried games like UO and thought "wow, (no pun intended) what a horrible waste of time" and never tried it again.
But what you did get was a concentraged group of people who did love this type of game. I mean there were (are) people who still love muds. And the level of imagination that one must have for that is far greater than a more graphical game. Yet it seems that there are less mud players and less of these games around and certainly not marketed to the same degree as games on this site.
Granted a game like WoW had the Blizzard name behind it but it was easy to get into, to understand and easy to have quick clean fun. That is all that was needed to start sucking in the average person. Especially if their kids played it. But there are 10 million + players (give or take) who now play WoW. Where did they come from? My guess is that they make up previously non-mmo players and regular people who might like games but just didn't see what the big deal was.
So, since it seems that we are in the Darkfall forum, the question is "can dark fall succeed".
Well, assuming that the devs are legit and this game is coming out (yes I know there is a limited beta but I wonder where all the people are who scream that no NDA can hold them) I would say yes it can succeed.
There certainly is a market for it. As long as they don't have to make WoW numbers (and no reason they should) it should do well.
The question is whether or not you players are too jaded at this point. Are you going to accept glitches and bugs? Are you going to stick around while they fix things.
and are you going to find it to your liking or has the hype blown it completely out of the stratoshere so that when people play it they will realize it is just a game like any other game?
I seriously hope it succeeds. In spite of fickle players.
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Comments
Doing same thing over and over again to train your skills up...maybe?
The mechanics behind the game is unchanged - you have to grind your skills/levels/equippment, w/e to progress in game.
This is unproven, for one we have no idea how long it will take to raise your skills, and two it's been stated that having higher level skills will not make a game winning difference. This in not a 6-12 month leveling game like Lineage 2, where you are forced to gain enormous amounts of xp just to be able to play the game, or like wow where you are forced to due repetitive tasks over and over to be able to "play the game". There are no levels and gear will be allegedly quite easy to procure, so where is the grind?
That being said if this games like eve, you may need to grind money, even so this having a small amount of grind in now infers a grind-fest. You could play thru the game being an explorer and never raise a single skill and still have a great time. There is no imperative to raise any skills in DF, or for that matter to do anything in particular.
I dispute your claim sir, on a basis of lack of evidence supporting it, as well as a fair amount of evidence supporting the contrary.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Since there is no game yet, there are no proofs about anything, however all hints given by devs are pro gindfest. As Devs said countless time, DF is based on UO and UO is grind game all way long.
Well, you mind to explain what 1000 planned skills are for when they 'will not make a game winning difference'?
Skills purely define what your character is capable of. Do you really think skills won't make any difference? Let's be reasonable...
This Tasos quote from interview posted on lordsofdeath.com pretty much sums up well what the game is gonna look like:
'The idea of the game is to provide something enjoyable for every niche of player. To not only give them something they cant help but continue (investment into a grind), but to allow them to enjoy the diversity of theyre choices.'
This dev comment counters pro grind argument.
Instead of having to grind out a level to compete with someone else there will be "a diversity of choices".
I read it that way, for example , i get me the mix of skills that are unique to me, or do something else as being competitive to exactly something what someone else is - If someone is good in let say using his bow , i ll go and get me some mastership in fishing , if the Bow master has never fished i will be better then him with the first fish i catch.
Or i get me shield skill and the bow master never hit me. The point is i can be competetive in more ways to someone else then me having the exact level of someone else, thus i don't have necessary to grind something out for feeling good like in WoW and WoW clones.
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Comment does not counter anything nor it changes anything about the fact the game is gonna be a grindfest.
It is a grind game, fair enough, it does not mean it is a bad game but it won't be a sandbox game since the game concept is pretty much the same as nowadays MMORPGs.
The game seems interesting, it would be very refreshing to see some 'old hard-core' RPG again but I refuse to fall to hype - dreaming instead of reading and glorify the game that is not even in any form of public beta.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Sandbox is where a player exists in a gaming world where the content is dynamic and changes around the player. In otherwords players actions have a direct impact on the environment and people around you. It's also about character freedom and progression and not being restricted by elements of the game. Theme Park MMO's differ in this regard as they only allow one direction of progression. They may have different paths, say different classes etc but they all point in the same direction and don't have the freedom to allow you to change if and when you want to. The world is also static and rarely changes, if I log out today and log back on in a weeks time, they are still fixing that bridge in Lakeshire and still rebuilding those houses at Sentinel Hill, nothing changes.
SWG & UO where very basic sandboxes as they gave freedom for the player to choose their own direction and develop their character their own way. However as I said I think these were very basic sandboxes and do lack severely in certain areas.
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
Yes. it is evolution.
I disagree on this. UO had to my eyes maybe a simple but very balanced combat system(pre AoS). Beyond a certain level of complexity it does not add more fun .... it only adds arbitrariness. Just take chess as an example, by 6 different types of chess pieces and bunch of simple movement rules for these chess pieces a complexity is spawn, that makes it one of the most fascinating games in the world. Now, lets have a "improved chess" with 60 different types chess pieces ... i promise you, i would not be fun anymore.
Now with sandboxes its the same. Simple Rules, Complex Consequences and Opportunities, thats what makes it a burner.
I think the reason, why theme park games became so fashioned is more about the target market. Before WoW, MMOs aimed for quite mature computer freaks, that have played RPG and Simulations for some years and now wanted to do that online. With the sucess of WoW, the industry now aims for people, who have not realy played any of these games but maybe just start with the MMO as their first computer game. I guess these people are just overwhelmed by the level of complexity a sandbox game has, they want the easy clicky-clicky and not a 6 month period of understanding the game setup. This does not make them dumber or something. You would also not start learning to fly airplanes in a jumbo jet but start with a chesna, right ?
But now with 10+ Millions MMO players,many of them have gained their experiences with their first MMO and they are looking for more than just collecting 10 hear's-ears and 5 porcupine quills in order to get that purple kitchen knife of doom ....
So yes its an evoultion, but more an evolution of the target market, which opens the opprtunity to find fundings for developing a state of the art sandbox MMO
Also a ideal sandbox fills every functionality with player and their actions and there is not a single NPC around. Same applies to "mobs" to hunt. In ideal sandbox those have to be real player.
With PvP everywhere and full loot DarkFall fulfills somewhat these condition. As for animals and monster mobs , real players wouldn't want to play them but DarkFall devs promised that they will migrate and interact with player actions (if at one location one type of Mob get hunted over and over it will extinct there and move elsewhere etc.)
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Sandbox is where a player exists in a gaming world where the content is dynamic and changes around the player. In otherwords players actions have a direct impact on the environment and people around you. It's also about character freedom and progression and not being restricted by elements of the game. Theme Park MMO's differ in this regard as they only allow one direction of progression. They may have different paths, say different classes etc but they all point in the same direction and don't have the freedom to allow you to change if and when you want to. The world is also static and rarely changes, if I log out today and log back on in a weeks time, they are still fixing that bridge in Lakeshire and still rebuilding those houses at Sentinel Hill, nothing changes.
SWG & UO where very basic sandboxes as they gave freedom for the player to choose their own direction and develop their character their own way. However as I said I think these were very basic sandboxes and do lack severely in certain areas.
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
So... you want to play a single person in a form of Simcity Online? Alright, but you had better start developing it now if you want to play within the next 25 years. The complexity of the AI programming to make what you are suggesting work would take many years to program by itself. Really, to create a game like this would take virtually unlimted funds and time, no matter how good technology gets.
Edit: That said, I would be delighted to see someone pull it off.
I am a skeptical supporter of DF. I am not a fanboi nor a troll. I seek the truth in every discussion, and I am truly sorry if I mistakenly state a fallacy.
Define "true sandbox", I don't believe Darkfall will be the be all, end all of sandbox mmos, I hope that it's just a step in a new direction, but "true sandbox", please elaborate, I think I get your meaning but it is unclear.
Sandbox is where a player exists in a gaming world where the content is dynamic and changes around the player. In otherwords players actions have a direct impact on the environment and people around you. It's also about character freedom and progression and not being restricted by elements of the game. Theme Park MMO's differ in this regard as they only allow one direction of progression. They may have different paths, say different classes etc but they all point in the same direction and don't have the freedom to allow you to change if and when you want to. The world is also static and rarely changes, if I log out today and log back on in a weeks time, they are still fixing that bridge in Lakeshire and still rebuilding those houses at Sentinel Hill, nothing changes.
SWG & UO where very basic sandboxes as they gave freedom for the player to choose their own direction and develop their character their own way. However as I said I think these were very basic sandboxes and do lack severely in certain areas.
For me there is no true sandbox game out there at the moment. Darkfall promises a lot that will push it in that direction but for me a true sandbox is a game that is intuitive that not only evolves around you but changes based on player actions. People and events cannot be the same the next time. I don't want to go to a town and see the NPC in the same place they were last time, I want that NPC to move around go and shop, spread news and gossip as they hear it, I want buildings to develop and evolve that are and are not based on character actions, I want plagues, fires, festivals, crime, politics, famine to all occur randomly as if they would in real live and player actions make a difference in combating them. If an enemy blocks a food caravan to the city or a farm is burned I want a famine to occur, then if I want to buy food I want to see the price gone up or if they dont have any food I want people including NPC's to go to a player shop and buy from there. That is just a small example of what I see as a true sandbox, a self contained world completely existing on it's on and always changing. Whether this is possible today I dunno.
According to you.. then, WAR would be a sandbox game.. because the players SHAPE the world (who controls what.. etc)..
But it's not.
A sandbox game.. is a game where you aren't told where to go. A place that lets you do what you want. There is no "set" leveling path, or Zone for you to level. .. Hell.. there can be NO leveling even. The point
There are no "classes", just career choices a player can make. That's what makes a true sand box..
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I'm confused, First time i hear about the "Sandbox" concept i was looking at the Wikypedia and thought i understand something,
Now i see that each one have a different concept.
I read in this thread idealized utopias about a game when you can do what you want. Do you think it is posible? I dont think so. There will be allways limits.
I read things like "no grind at all" "no leveling". I can't think it is posible in an mmorpg environment. You will need to work for resources, you will need to level your skills.
I read opinions that make a Sandbox game closer to a FPS game that a MMORPG. I read here opinions about how some aspects have to be in a Sandbox game that fit perfectly in how these aspects were in the "theme park" "grinding feasts" "linear games" i have been playing.
At the end thought its all just about degrees, isnt it?
As you can see i'm very confused.
Have a nice day.
Grindfest or not! The way in which skills are improved has absolutely no bearing on whether a game is considered "sandbox." Themepark and sandbox differences refer only to the direction a player is given from the game itself, or lack there of. All MMORPGs have some form of grind included, its the main aspect that defines the gameplay differences between RPGs and other genres.
That being said, having to grind out anything, without being told to do so, further supports that Darkfall is a sandbox MMO. On the contrary, a themepark game would simply tell you what to grind, how many, for how long, and/or where to do it.
Think about what the term, "sandbox," even refers to. A sandbox is an area in which someone can manipulate the materials provided, usually sand, and entertain one's self. You can pick it up and throw it in someone's eyes, make a castle, write in it, pee in it, etc. Even, if you do it more than once, that doesn't make it any less of a sandbox.
Themepark is a word which by the way fails to describe the gameplay most accurately (a better term would be "Linear") . These give you very specific instructions in order to advance through the game. They even point you to the next NPC for further direction when you have completed a certain area. These games are the mainstream of today's MMORPG market.
Some examples of "Sandbox" games:
"Themepark" or "Linear" games:
You'll notice that SWG is listed twice, with its status change in parenthesis. The battle between Sandbox vs. Themeparks is responsible for what was the most controversial patch in MMO history. For those who have never played in the genre before WoW's release are truly missing out. The fans of SWG cried out in agony for good reason.
Sandbox is the future, and is what should have remained years ago.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
the reason is why?
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
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the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sorry I think that's a little elitist.
I've seen people make that statement before and it smacks more of "my way of life and my goals are more right and others are not".
The average person doesn't follow forums or game boards or have a lot of time to spend in games. The average person wants to enjoy some adventures and log out and do other things.
To spend an entire game session finding any meaningful quests or crafting or looking for a group is not their idea of fun. And more power to them I say.
Seriously, how can you sell a game to the average person when you say "well, you might spend 2 hours just finding the right group so you can go in a dungeon and kill the same monsters over and over for another few hours, then you will gather your mats and craft for 30 minutes so you can make components to make equipment you wil then try to sell to players.
They might respond back "2 hours?!?!?!"
they might have an hour. Maybe more some days, maybe less on others. Running for 20 minutes to get somewhere or to search for a spawn point is not going to sell them on the concept of "time well spent". I've played these games and it's hard to believe that I've spent time sitting at my computer crafting (which I despise" just so I can make money to equip myself with consumables so that I can grind a bit.
Games like WoW give average people a chance to play a bit, have some adventures and then log off. What? What's that you say? WoW is the biggest grind because of the endgame raiding? Well, thing is, only gamers do that. Raid 5 days a week for hours? Average person doesn't do that. They have things to do and can (and do) enjoy Wow for what it is when they can.
Sandbox games are great for people who have a lot of time or don't mind spending the time they do have on very specific things. Doesn't mean they are more creative (and quite frankly, I think the person who spends 1 hour in WoW and then logs off to paint or sculpt or play in a band or write is the one who is more creative) or smarter or any of those things. Quite frankly I think it means they have good and very real goals and have their priorities straight.
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the reason is why?
As long as WoW continues to be a success.. NO sandboxes will NOT be the future. People crave structure. The linear games offer that. One reason why you have more themepark games than sandbox games.
Is that another way of saying that most people don't want to think for themselves and lack creativitiy, or are afraid to show creativity ?
Sorry I think that's a little elitist.
I've seen people make that statement before and it smacks more of "my way of life and my goals are more right and others are not".
The average person doesn't follow forums or game boards or have a lot of time to spend in games. The average person wants to enjoy some adventures and log out and do other things.
To spend an entire game session finding any meaningful quests or crafting or looking for a group is not their idea of fun. And more power to them I say.
Seriously, how can you sell a game to the average person when you say "well, you might spend 2 hours just finding the right group so you can go in a dungeon and kill the same monsters over and over for another few hours, then you will gather your mats and craft for 30 minutes so you can make components to make equipment you wil then try to sell to players.
They might respond back "2 hours?!?!?!"
they might have an hour. Maybe more some days, maybe less on others. Running for 20 minutes to get somewhere or to search for a spawn point is not going to sell them on the concept of "time well spent". I've played these games and it's hard to believe that I've spent time sitting at my computer crafting (which I despise" just so I can make money to equip myself with consumables so that I can grind a bit.
Games like WoW give average people a chance to play a bit, have some adventures and then log off. What? What's that you say? WoW is the biggest grind because of the endgame raiding? Well, thing is, only gamers do that. Raid 5 days a week for hours? Average person doesn't do that. They have things to do and can (and do) enjoy Wow for what it is when they can.
Sandbox games are great for people who have a lot of time or don't mind spending the time they do have on very specific things. Doesn't mean they are more creative (and quite frankly, I think the person who spends 1 hour in WoW and then logs off to paint or sculpt or play in a band or write is the one who is more creative) or smarter or any of those things. Quite frankly I think it means they have good and very real goals and have their priorities straight.
If you can only play for an hour or less at a time why on earth would pay a subscription fee when you could be playing a different type of multiplayer game that you only pay for once and isn't so time consuming?
I can't honestly say I have ever met anyone in a mmorpg who plays like this, normally people play for most of an evening a few times a week.
You wouldn't be taking full advantage the features mmorpgs provide, you wouldn't have enough time.
If I could only play in one hour sessions a couple of times a week then there is no way I would bother playing a mmorpg.
There are mulitudes of other types of games, many with peristant elements, that do not require a sub that are more suited to this style of play.
I'm sorry but what you are saying doesn't matter. Not that your opinion is invalid but you are essentially saying that if a person doesn't fall into your criteria they should be doing something else.
I've never understood this mode of thinking. It's like the "I need solo content"/"If you want solo content you shouldn't be paying to play an mmo" arguement.
It doesn't matter whether I play 15 mintues or 15 hours or 150 hours. It only matters that I (or the player) wants to play and is willing to pay.
If I can only log into a game for an hour at a time (and quite frankly sometimes I CAN only log in for an hour at a time) then I am going to find a game that allows me to do that.
In no way, shape or form am I saying that all games need to cater to this tyep of time usage. But a game like WoW or LOTRO does allow one to do that.
And, since I already said I was willing to pay for access to these game then that should be enough.
And this is why games like WoW are so popular. I'm sorry but the average person does not log into an online game in the same way that many of you (or me) do. They do not play 7 hours on a Saturday.
And since I can log into WoW or LOTRO for a small bit, do some things that are fun and log off then it is time well spent.
You can't in any seriousness lay down a proclamation that the only way to enjoy an online game is to play "x" hours. That might be for you but not for others. And again, since they are willing to pay then it makes the point moot.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Wow does not allow you to do that unless you never intend to reach max level and do not run dungeons or do much of anything else.
It takes 15 days of played time to reach max level so you would just be hitting level 60 about now if you only played 3 hours a week and would have missed the vast majority of the content.
I can't find these people in game who are just hitting 60 now after starting at launch, therefore I conclude that they don't exist! Or are less than 1% of total wow players maybe.
Either you play much more than you are admitting or you have missed a huge proportion of the content and would probably better off playing something else.
Sandboxes are not more time intensive than themeparks, in fact probably less so.
Hate to break it to ya, man, but I could (can) log into pre-CU SWG (best sandbox MMO ever designed, IMO) and find PLENTY of things to do if I only had a few minutes to play.
Sandboxes offer more variety as far as activities within the game go.
Only have a few minutes to play? You don't NEED to group, or quest. Maybe work on decorating your house, or your shop, or stock your vendors, or do a bit of crafting, or some quick space combat, or any of a million things that can be done in a virtual world game model.
People like to try to say that a sandbox game can't offer instant gratification, and I say that they must have never played one.
I remember back in 1999, folks kept asking me if I was stockpiling food. I always answered, "No, I'm stockpiling ammo and making a list of people who are stockpiling food"
No need to say anything more than read bold text in your post.
Again, you are trying to base everything on how you see the game. Of all the players I know who play woW non of them run raids. They log in to do the quests with their families and friends.
So, if a Raid is going to take hours then that is obviously a part of the game that will be closed off to them (and me as I don't play WoW that much).
But you are assuming that the players who play WoW will "of course" want to get into raids and high lvl content. This is because many players see these games as "end game" games. But again, you can enjoy the content of WoW or LOTRO without doing these things.
As an example, the Book Quests in LOTRO sometimes require a group. Sometimes I can get a group or even help from guild members and sometimes "not". No problem there, I just do other things. I can happily say I have a lvl 50 Guardian which I started when the game was released and I am exactly on book 5 of the book quests which span 14 books.
That's ok by me as I can enjoy many other aspects of the game. So yes, there are things in online games that take greater effort and time. But one doesn't have always do those things. That's the beauty of online games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Again, you are trying to base everything on how you see the game. Of all the players I know who play woW non of them run raids. They log in to do the quests with their families and friends.
So, if a Raid is going to take hours then that is obviously a part of the game that will be closed off to them (and me as I don't play WoW that much).
But you are assuming that the players who play WoW will "of course" want to get into raids and high lvl content. This is because many players see these games as "end game" games. But again, you can enjoy the content of WoW or LOTRO without doing these things.
As an example, the Book Quests in LOTRO sometimes require a group. Sometimes I can get a group or even help from guild members and sometimes "not". No problem there, I just do other things. I can happily say I have a lvl 50 Guardian which I started when the game was released and I am exactly on book 5 of the book quests which span 14 books.
That's ok by me as I can enjoy many other aspects of the game. So yes, there are things in online games that take greater effort and time. But one doesn't have always do those things. That's the beauty of online games.
If you play like that then that is fair enough, but in reality you are in the extreme minority of mmorpg gamers.
From my wow experience, which I played for several years, most people have 1 or more max level characters.
You cannot realistically say your example of the typical mmorpg gamer is accurate.
The fact that most people even reach max level shows that it is not true.
After Wotlk releases I would guess that most people will have a max level character within 3 months, as was the case with BC, so clearly they must be playing much more than an hour here and there.
If this is not the case then why is WoW chock full of full epic 70's and there are hardly any low levels?
Again, you are trying to base everything on how you see the game. Of all the players I know who play woW non of them run raids. They log in to do the quests with their families and friends.
So, if a Raid is going to take hours then that is obviously a part of the game that will be closed off to them (and me as I don't play WoW that much).
But you are assuming that the players who play WoW will "of course" want to get into raids and high lvl content. This is because many players see these games as "end game" games. But again, you can enjoy the content of WoW or LOTRO without doing these things.
As an example, the Book Quests in LOTRO sometimes require a group. Sometimes I can get a group or even help from guild members and sometimes "not". No problem there, I just do other things. I can happily say I have a lvl 50 Guardian which I started when the game was released and I am exactly on book 5 of the book quests which span 14 books.
That's ok by me as I can enjoy many other aspects of the game. So yes, there are things in online games that take greater effort and time. But one doesn't have always do those things. That's the beauty of online games.
If you play like that then that is fair enough, but in reality you are in the extreme minority of mmorpg gamers.
From my wow experience, which I played for several years, most people have 1 or more max level characters.
You cannot realistically say your example of the typical mmorpg gamer is accurate.
The fact that most people even reach max level shows that it is not true.
After Wotlk releases I would guess that most people will have a max level character within 3 months, as was the case with BC, so clearly they must be playing much more than an hour here and there.
If this is not the case then why is WoW chock full of full epic 70's and there are hardly any low levels?
The people I know who play WoW have families, they play with their kids, or they Are office workers who have max lvl characters but don't fret about the whole raiding/gear thing.
There is a reason that a game like WoW has 10 million players. MMO's were out before WoW. But WoW allows for casual play in a relatively bug free game.
The problem with your statem is the term mmorpg gamer. The average person is not really an mmorpg gamer. They are people who have been turned on to online games.
And as far as the other gentleman who stated that he could log into SWG and do meaningful things in a few mintues, that's great. I can't doubt it. I could log into Lineage 2 and make some shots in a few minutes.
But the average person - read: not gamer - average person wants a very focused gameplay experience so that he/she can log on, do something that is very fun and then get on with his or her life.
There is a reason that games are moving away from sandbox play, time sink sort of games. It's not because people are stupid (well, of course there are stupid people but I"m not going to lambaste society based upon whether they like sandbox or linear games) but because they have other things to do and the games they play need to support that.
edit: I'll add that society is no more dumb or slow or bad than it was 50 years ago. People didn't suddenly become unimaginative and can't understand the concept of the sandbox game.
What I think happened is that the people who were turned on to these games were the people who were turned onto computers and the web. It was a novel idea.
I'm sure there must have been many people who tried games like UO and thought "wow, (no pun intended) what a horrible waste of time" and never tried it again.
But what you did get was a concentraged group of people who did love this type of game. I mean there were (are) people who still love muds. And the level of imagination that one must have for that is far greater than a more graphical game. Yet it seems that there are less mud players and less of these games around and certainly not marketed to the same degree as games on this site.
Granted a game like WoW had the Blizzard name behind it but it was easy to get into, to understand and easy to have quick clean fun. That is all that was needed to start sucking in the average person. Especially if their kids played it. But there are 10 million + players (give or take) who now play WoW. Where did they come from? My guess is that they make up previously non-mmo players and regular people who might like games but just didn't see what the big deal was.
So, since it seems that we are in the Darkfall forum, the question is "can dark fall succeed".
Well, assuming that the devs are legit and this game is coming out (yes I know there is a limited beta but I wonder where all the people are who scream that no NDA can hold them) I would say yes it can succeed.
There certainly is a market for it. As long as they don't have to make WoW numbers (and no reason they should) it should do well.
The question is whether or not you players are too jaded at this point. Are you going to accept glitches and bugs? Are you going to stick around while they fix things.
and are you going to find it to your liking or has the hype blown it completely out of the stratoshere so that when people play it they will realize it is just a game like any other game?
I seriously hope it succeeds. In spite of fickle players.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo