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Is PVE to blame?
AlexanderTD
Member Posts: 97
I've been reading forums and to my surprise - many people are whining about PVP in mmorpgs. They actualy say that some games in development should not be "heavily PVP based"...they bring WOW as example 
Now...i even forgot that such thing as PVE servers exist 
Without PVP this game (or others) just do not make sense. People who want "static" content should play offline games and get a lot more graphics/quality/story etc.
But my point is - i can easily see how PVE half of AOC players could get bored quickly and start whining. I played AOC for 3 months now i think. If i had only PVE part of it i'd quit in 3 days at most.
"PVE only" is beyound my understanding so i won't even ask, but question is - do you think that AOC failed mostly as PVE game and first wave of unhappy players came from PVE servers? I've only seen increase in activity on my PVP server (wildsoul) during last couple of months..
Could somebody give an example of MMORPG with good PVE content so i'd have something to compare AOC with?
Comments
From reading the AoC forums, I think you'll see that the patches AoC has implemented, along with some of the proposed things they may implement, have the potential to adversely impact PvE. In short, the focus seems to be primarily on PvP at the moment, and the PvE'ers think they are being ignored. There may be some truth to that.
Otherwise, it's been my experience that the majority of complaints within any game that has PvP in it, centers around issues stemming from PvP itself. Class balance being one MAJOR issue - nerf this, buff that, such-and-such class is OP, exploits and hacks, etc. Nothing seems to raise the ire like PvP....
For an example of a PvE based game, I'd probably point you toward LOTRO. It's message board is generally serene when compared to most others.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
PvP and PvE should never be mixed imo. You cant balance for one without adversly effecting the other. I dont think a PvP ONLY game can cut it though. Has there ever been a PVP ONLY mmo? no PvE at all?
actually, the first part of the PvE content patch is coming out in the next update. Crafting is getting reworded, raids are getting added, fixed, and changed for the better, and more PvE content has made its way into the game before the PvP patch has hit. I wouldn't say either PvP or PvE is being "ignored" but rather are being worked on seprately.
To the person that said that PvE and PvP should not be mixed the problem I have with that is that if a class is OP in PvP its OP in PvE. The difference is the mobs can't complain about you being OP and as such PvEers are happy with their OPness because they are more useful. IMO for an MMO to be worth anything all classes reguardless of play style should be fair balanced with strs and weaknesss; however, an OP class has all str and hardly any weaknesses. I just don't understand why hardcore PvE players can't see this issue like the people who play both aspects do.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
I can help you out here. I play AoC as well as I have played other PvE games, and right away I can say AoC has the best PvE content out there. I have multiple alts and really enjoy doing the Quests. AoC has it's own ability to just suck you into the plot of the game. I think it's the music, the graphics and the atmosphere that separates AoC from other games. Also, are you aware of that PvE servers in AoC has PvP. There are PvP minigames on PvE servers. I have been doing some of that too, and it's cool enough and if you do a lot of that you can get PvP gear and gain PvP levels..
I would disagree. While the music is good, the visuals are pretty dull in my opinion. More than that, however, the quests are of the same variety you'll find in any other game - perhaps even slightly less imaginitive than in some other games. Additionally, there is a lack of overall content in the game, and the endgame is seriously lacking (both in the fact that there isn't enough of it, it's simplistic, and that what there is of it is very broken/bugged right now).
I wouldn't say it has great PvE based on what it might have in the future. If FC adds a lot to it, and improves what it already has, I think it will at least be average. But not until then.
As it is now, PvE in Age of Conan is less than adequate. Hopefully, it will improve.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I would disagree. While the music is good, the visuals are pretty dull in my opinion. More than that, however, the quests are of the same variety you'll find in any other game - perhaps even slightly less imaginitive than in some other games. Additionally, there is a lack of overall content in the game, and the endgame is seriously lacking (both in the fact that there isn't enough of it, it's simplistic, and that what there is of it is very broken/bugged right now).
I wouldn't say it has great PvE based on what it might have in the future. If FC adds a lot to it, and improves what it already has, I think it will at least be average. But not until then.
As it is now, PvE in Age of Conan is less than adequate. Hopefully, it will improve.
Are we talking about the same game? I talk about AoC, the way I just played it 30 min ago.
I think people need to learn to look past themselves and their own play style preferences and realize that there are those who don't share them.
It irks me when I see pro-PvP people stating that PvE should die... It irks me when I see pro-PvE people saying that PvP shouldn't exist.
I get sick of seeing every single new MMO in development that I follow get flooded with the rantings of the self-described "hardcore" people insisting the game *must* have PvP or it will suck and fail and that the "carebears" should go play a different genre. I'm sick of the people stating that it's not a "real MMO" if it doesn't have PvP. I'm sick of the rabidly anti-PvP people arguing incessantly that no MMO should have PvP for whatever reasons.
I don't understand why either side feels so damn threatened by the idea that some MMO out there might not be centered around the playstyle they prefer... even if they have no intention of playing it. It's like it's some threat to their existence if others don't enjoy the same thing they do. They have this obsession with feeling like they have to ram their preferred play style down everyone else's throat... and if they don't like it then they need to "gtfo" of MMOs.
There should be PvE MMOs for those who prefer that. There should be PvP MMOs for those who prefer that. There should be some with a mix, perhaps with servers with different rulesets, or even mixed on the same server (though it is rarely done to anyone's satisfaction when devs try)...
There should be something for everybody and people should just get the hell over the fact that not everyone is going to share their preferences and that it's *okay*.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No one is obligated to anyone else's.
Anyway... slightly rant-ish.. but that's a topic that always aggravates me.. the self-centered, ignorant and closed-minded mentality of so many people when it comes to games and the people who play them.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
AoC should have chosen a niche and ran with it, that is the way for companys to compete with WoW, they tried to be everything to everyone and didn't have the time nore the money, nore the competance to do that (for instance it doesn't work to have a game with a pve raid game at the same time as a game with little focus on gear, they are polar oposites), they ended up failing to be the best at pve or pvp and thus are failing badly.
There is Fury. It had a good concept but bad execution. It's F2P at the moment.
Also there is Guild Wars which has both pve and pvp, but you can skip pve and roll a max level pvp character, and start endgame pvp from day one. I recommend you try it if you like skill based pvp. There is no open world pvp, but there is some nice, fast, high paced 4vs4, 8vs8 and 12vs12. And there is no monthly fee, you just need to buy the box
Thanks evryone for your replies.
Ok, so based on what you all say i came to the conclusion that in the end - AOC has a pretty good PVE side. I do agree - quests are as close to games like Neverwinter nights or other offline RPGs as possible so i guess PVE is not to be blamed for AOCs reputation.
Though i realy believe that AOC PVE side (like of any other MMO) is restricted compared to offline games, but when compared to other MMOs it's ok.
I realize that PVE part is important, even for PVP. Any game needs detailed enviroument for player immersion, there needs for story/plot, believeable characters and something to do to cover your PVP expenses
I guess perfect MMO would combine PVP and PVE well, though it would take a lot of talent to make. But i still believe that MMOs without PVP do not make sense unless it is players vs very smart computer (tabula rasa concept, but better), yet so far noone even got close enough in my opinion so PVP is the way to go if you want something that let you use your brain and not just your fingers..
AOC has very nice 1vs1 PVP thanks to it's combat system. It's as different from other fantasy RPGs as Jumpgate Evolution is different from EVE online. Being EVE player for more than 2 years i always wanted to have something that would let me fight with my own skills instead of skills of my character. I guess i should thank AOC for showing that stupid clickers like some of popular MMOs out there is not the only way to go... But i decided to suspend my subscription till there's more of new content and changes for now.
AOC is not the game i can play for long, i guess it lack depth for me. PVP feels somewhat pointless since there's no loot/item drop, faction wars etc. and PVE....well - a lot of nice offline games coming out. It will take months to play them all
I think AoC as a whole, is a failure, but I will say this: AoC has the best pve I've ever played.
Now I hate pve. I hate it with a passion. I just don't get it, how someone likes killings mindless NPC's. I've quit many MMO's because they forced me to do pve and grind. In AoC however, it was not that boring. For the most part at least.
Unlike most players here, I hated boring single player Tortage. But after that, the game got a lot better. Doing pve in a group was ok. It was not "great fun", but it wasn't as painful as pve usually is in MMO's.
AoC is a good pve game but it fails in pvp on so many levels, that I just cannot recommend it to anyone who likes pvp.
That is a great compliment to the game coming from a passionate FC hater (look your avatar) as yourself. I agree, AoC's PvE is absolutely something special.10/10
I dunno, this is a complex question.
I am totally a PvE player myself, I see no interest whatsoever in PvP and I did discard AoC without trying it.
That's been said, I can look and try to understand, from outside the game, what is "wrong". PvE players is an oxymoron, you have at least 5 or 6 differents types of "PvE players. You will not please each and every type.
It was my understanding that AoC has a heavy focus on PvP/RvR...and the only way to avoid that was to Raid in PvE. Basically, this crude simplification would make AoC, WoW, EQ2, EQ, DAoC and WAR extremely similar, in facts, AoC offer more choices than some other games which force you to either Raid or PvP or RvR; if my understanding of AoC is right. However, these players which enjoy raiding or RvR or PvP, they are spoiled, each and every MMO cater to some of them.
In PvE, let's take the most simplist type of player...a soloer. Granted, we are playing in MMOs and it is normal that a game doesn't cater totally to them...or is it? Anyway, I am not really a soloer myself, so I am kinda detached here...but the point is, this soloer, why would he stick to AoC instead of WoW or WAR? He is gonna be screwed anyway in any game!
In PvE, you also have groupers, now these players are usually award a 2nd seat in most games; yet a MMO such as CoX will grant them the front seat, which is probably why a game as shallow as CoX is soo enjoyable, it is/was full of groupers. These groupers don't have many options, they are either subpar in most MMOs, yet not completely weak...or they play CoX. For me, it was a no brainer, really...even if I never like the spandex and superheroes!
In PvE you also have socialisers...now these players...I don't think they have much of a gameplay for them anyway...and I dunno if they really care about it. They will do anything to be part of the community. I won't say anymore on them. You also have tradeskillers, raiders and many other.
Now my point is, AoC caters either to raiders (which most MMOs already do) or to RvRers/PvPers (which again most MMOs do). The game althought nice was apparently not bringing anything to outclass the competition, so it shrink on itself.
Blame it on PvE? Well, you have a point, but your point is more global than that. They fail to grab a player base, aka a market, aka a niche....just as Vanguard did fail. Been a better PvE game COULD have been the solution, yet it wasn't necessarily the path they have to take, especially with a subject such as...CONAN...I find it hilarious to think of an expansion name...Conan the Librarian, Conan the bottanist, Conan the baker...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Lol I wouldn't say it's "absolutely something special". And it's definitely not 10/10. Nothing in AoC is 10/10. I still felt pve was mostly boring, I never even read the boring stuff quest givers said. Probably the main reason why I could make myself play pve in AoC was the fact that leveling was so fast. If I had to do those "go kill 20 of these" -quests twice as much before leveling, I would have left the game a long time ago.
My AoC rating:
pve 7/10
pvp 5/10
By the way, if you want pve with a good quest story, go get WAR and play greenskins. Those quests are really funny.
p.s. Please stop saying 10/10. People don't take you seriously when you do it. Eurogamer gave AoC 6/10, which I'm sure most sensible people would agree.
Lol I wouldn't say it's "absolutely something special". And it's definitely not 10/10. Nothing in AoC is 10/10. I still felt pve was mostly boring, I never even read the boring stuff quest givers said. Probably the main reason why I could make myself play pve in AoC was the fact that leveling was so fast. If I had to do those "go kill 20 of these" -quests twice as much before leveling, I would have left the game a long time ago.
My AoC rating:
pve 7/10
pvp 5/10
By the way, if you want pve with a good quest story, go get WAR and play greenskins. Those quests are really funny.
p.s. Please stop saying 10/10. People don't take you seriously when you do it. Eurogamer gave AoC 6/10, which I'm sure most sensible people would agree.
10/10 is just my opinion, and most people are aware of that. My goal is not to convince somebody of anything or even to be taken seriously. I'm just a gamer telling you my honest opinion on this game
You have played AoC for 2 weeks. You know almost nothing about the game, so why should anyone care about your "honest opinion"?
The amount of time you use posting on these forums, makes me guess you are not a very active player. Are you even out of Tortage yet?
Most people here have played this game for months. And we know what we are talking about. You on the other hand don't. Not yet.
Come back when you hit 80. By then your eyes have hopefully been opened and you can look past the graphics and see the real AoC.
I would disagree. While the music is good, the visuals are pretty dull in my opinion. More than that, however, the quests are of the same variety you'll find in any other game - perhaps even slightly less imaginitive than in some other games. Additionally, there is a lack of overall content in the game, and the endgame is seriously lacking (both in the fact that there isn't enough of it, it's simplistic, and that what there is of it is very broken/bugged right now).
I wouldn't say it has great PvE based on what it might have in the future. If FC adds a lot to it, and improves what it already has, I think it will at least be average. But not until then.
As it is now, PvE in Age of Conan is less than adequate. Hopefully, it will improve.
Are we talking about the same game? I talk about AoC, the way I just played it 30 min ago.
Yes, we're talking about the same game. PvE in Age of Conan is pretty standard fare as far as questing and zones are concerned, though it lacks content, and the endgame raids are extremely buggy/exploitable (both of which FC has acknowledged).
The little arrows that point you toward your quest objectives, where X marks the spot, makes AoC seem like "Questing for Dummies".
Are you sure you're playing AoC?
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I can help you out here. I play AoC as well as I have played other PvE games, and right away I can say AoC has the best PvE content out there. I have multiple alts and really enjoy doing the Quests. AoC has it's own ability to just suck you into the plot of the game. I think it's the music, the graphics and the atmosphere that separates AoC from other games. Also, are you aware of that PvE servers in AoC has PvP. There are PvP minigames on PvE servers. I have been doing some of that too, and it's cool enough and if you do a lot of that you can get PvP gear and gain PvP levels..
What he said, I primarily PVE in AoC and it's the best I've played in any MMO. But I also occasionally group up. Also PvP minigames on my server are atrocious. There never seems to be enough people looking for the same map and objective.
Killing mindless NPCs or mindless PCs, both can be lacking.
I would disagree. While the music is good, the visuals are pretty dull in my opinion. More than that, however, the quests are of the same variety you'll find in any other game - perhaps even slightly less imaginitive than in some other games. Additionally, there is a lack of overall content in the game, and the endgame is seriously lacking (both in the fact that there isn't enough of it, it's simplistic, and that what there is of it is very broken/bugged right now).
I wouldn't say it has great PvE based on what it might have in the future. If FC adds a lot to it, and improves what it already has, I think it will at least be average. But not until then.
As it is now, PvE in Age of Conan is less than adequate. Hopefully, it will improve.
Are we talking about the same game? I talk about AoC, the way I just played it 30 min ago.
Yes, we're talking about the same game. PvE in Age of Conan is pretty standard fare as far as questing and zones are concerned, though it lacks content, and the endgame raids are extremely buggy/exploitable (both of which FC has acknowledged).
The little arrows that point you toward your quest objectives, where X marks the spot, makes AoC seem like "Questing for Dummies".
Are you sure you're playing AoC?
I would be interested in hearing what PVE in other MMOs you did find to be good? Specific examples please. Also, you said the graphics were dull. Again, what MMOs do you find the graphics to be good?
I would disagree. While the music is good, the visuals are pretty dull in my opinion. More than that, however, the quests are of the same variety you'll find in any other game - perhaps even slightly less imaginitive than in some other games. Additionally, there is a lack of overall content in the game, and the endgame is seriously lacking (both in the fact that there isn't enough of it, it's simplistic, and that what there is of it is very broken/bugged right now).
I wouldn't say it has great PvE based on what it might have in the future. If FC adds a lot to it, and improves what it already has, I think it will at least be average. But not until then.
As it is now, PvE in Age of Conan is less than adequate. Hopefully, it will improve.
Are we talking about the same game? I talk about AoC, the way I just played it 30 min ago.
Yes, we're talking about the same game. PvE in Age of Conan is pretty standard fare as far as questing and zones are concerned, though it lacks content, and the endgame raids are extremely buggy/exploitable (both of which FC has acknowledged).
The little arrows that point you toward your quest objectives, where X marks the spot, makes AoC seem like "Questing for Dummies".
Are you sure you're playing AoC?
I would be interested in hearing what PVE in other MMOs you did find to be good? Specific examples please. Also, you said the graphics were dull. Again, what MMOs do you find the graphics to be good?
I could ask the same of you, since you've stated that you think that AoC has the best PvE experience in any current MMO, but I won't. It would be pointless, given the high degree of subjectivity involved in trying to answer.
Same thing with the graphics. A lot of people have awarded AoC the "Best Graphics Ever" award, and believe it's beyond dispute, based on detail, polygon count... whatever. You'll note I said visuals in my statement above, and by that I mean the art direction and style of what is being presented, more than an award for technical achievement. High detail does not always equate to good art. Of course, this is also subjective.
With either topic, with any game I could mention, you could respond with a "nuh-uh, I think X is better", which would be just as valid as my opinion (and at the same time, not invalidating mine). In effect, it's pointless.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
This is 100% correct. I've always found AoC graphics bland and boring. It is detailed but not very.. pretty. A little darker overall feeling would have been so much better. The way they have it now is not how I imagined Hyboria.
I agree. Just my personal experience, but there are very few times I can recall looking at the images presented in AoC and thinking "Wow, look at that!" The visual presentation is very mundane, in my opinion, which is probably a hazard of going for a more realistic look. Even with the realistic style, it isn't as if the game looks like a live-action movie - it's still looks like a computer generated cartoon, if a fairly well detailed one.
I don't think they've done a horrible job of capturing Hyboria, but I agree that it could be a lot darker and grittier, and they could have done a lot more with the mature rating. Again, just my opinion, but everything from the armor models to the environments in the zones seem bland and uninspired to me.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I agree. Just my personal experience, but there are very few times I can recall looking at the images presented in AoC and thinking "Wow, look at that!" The visual presentation is very mundane, in my opinion, which is probably a hazard of going for a more realistic look. Even with the realistic style, it isn't as if the game looks like a live-action movie - it's still looks like a computer generated cartoon, if a fairly well detailed one.
I don't think they've done a horrible job of capturing Hyboria, but I agree that it could be a lot darker and grittier, and they could have done a lot more with the mature rating. Again, just my opinion, but everything from the armor models to the environments in the zones seem bland and uninspired to me.
Seems like the Art Director had never seen one of hundred Frank Frazetta paintings / sketches of Conan.
I expected avatars with purple veined muscles, rusting iron, tarnished bronze, covered in stains of mud and blood. Too much of the armor sets sparkle like a Jiffy-Pop tinfoil with a fresh coat of carnauba wax.
If it had been my call the world and the people would look like 'Oil painting' not 'Auto paint'.
(P.S. I would have settled for Simon Bisley-esqe Conan)
I agree. Just my personal experience, but there are very few times I can recall looking at the images presented in AoC and thinking "Wow, look at that!" The visual presentation is very mundane, in my opinion, which is probably a hazard of going for a more realistic look. Even with the realistic style, it isn't as if the game looks like a live-action movie - it's still looks like a computer generated cartoon, if a fairly well detailed one.
I don't think they've done a horrible job of capturing Hyboria, but I agree that it could be a lot darker and grittier, and they could have done a lot more with the mature rating. Again, just my opinion, but everything from the armor models to the environments in the zones seem bland and uninspired to me.
Seems like the Art Director had never seen one of hundred Frank Frazetta paintings / sketches of Conan.
I expected avatars with purple veined muscles, rusting iron, tarnished bronze, covered in stains of mud and blood. Too much of the armor sets sparkle like a Jiffy-Pop tinfoil with a fresh coat of carnauba wax.
If it had been my call the world and the people would look like 'Oil painting' not 'Auto paint'.
(P.S. I would have settled for Simon Bisley-esqe Conan)
You, sir, have hit the nail squarely on the head. I wasn't able to adequately describe my meaning, but you have done so much better than I could.
You're right - visually speaking, much of the game seems overly "bright, shiny, and new". Definitely not the grittiness I expected or hoped for. I love the work by Frazetta - he really established a look that I believe pretty much sets the standard.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.