Originally posted by whpsh Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by edmonal I think quite a few of the SWG Vets are going to become very disenheartened as this game evolves; it won't be even close to what they are looking for, but that's what happens when you try and shoehorn your expectations into something that will never meet them.
I don't mind Bioware as a game company, but I find that their games have limited appeal to me. I'm starting out with the same expectations with this game. I may find it amusing for the first 30 days, but after that it will be time to move onto something else.
Why would we care about what SWG vets think? Bioware makes good games and i will take a look at this, as all other games. If it is good, i will buy & play. If not, i won't. Very simple. And i applaud them to take MMO to a new, unproven directin (story driven). it may work, it may not .. who knows? But at least it is innovative and new.
You should care about the SWG Vets because they are a large customer base that has been craving a replacement. I have no idea how many subscribers there were at peak, but even if it was as low as 300k that's 4.5 million USD per month. And story driven isn't innovative or new. They're called "Chose Your Own Adventure" books. No matter how much you want to turn left, if left isn't a choice ... sorry for ya'. Galaxies was innovative because you weren't a reader ... you were an author.
It was 450 000 users in 2004 then it started dropping. And at that time it was a pretty impressive number.
I agree with the "choose your own adventure" comment. Bioware TOR shall be a good game but not one where you really have the choice.
I just got one question for you OP. How many triple A titles have you developed? Bioware has been doing it for a while. So I would like to hear how many you have made, that makes you so sure you know better then them.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
I just got one question for you OP. How many triple A titles have you developed? Bioware has been doing it for a while. So I would like to hear how many you have made, that makes you so sure you know better then them.
Thats entirely irrelevant. You dont have to have cooked a Schnitzel to qualify if it tastes good. Hilarious argument.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It's an apt argument. I've never cooked a schnitzel but I could only tell you if I liked it or not. If a cook came to me and showed facts and reports showing that he has cooked several schnitzels that a great many people liked and won awards, then I would take his word over someone else until I had tried it myself. But even then I could just say whether I liked it or not, not whether a large amount of people did.
His argument is not whether YOU like something, it is whether someone has the ability to make something that other people will like and sell. And bioware has a pretty good track record of this, even though I personally thought their games were fairly boring.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I just got one question for you OP. How many triple A titles have you developed? Bioware has been doing it for a while. So I would like to hear how many you have made, that makes you so sure you know better then them.
You don't have to have developed any AAA titles to know what you as an individual think is good or bad. You just have to have the ability to not be a sheep and think for yourself.
A degree doesn't make you somehow omnipotent on a given subject. Just means you know how to regurgitate information. A parrot can do that. Neither does experience. Look at George W. Bush. Many years in politics and still screwed up a presidency. Look at various MMO created lately. Launched with severe lacking in multiple areas even with teams of people with "degrees and experience".
No, sorry. College is not a requirement to look at a company's idea, compare it at its basic level to recent relevant products and come to the conclusion that it really isn't so much different than the others. And those others aren't really fairing so well.
And I'm a Bioware fan from the first Baldur's Gate. I know what they do well, very well in fact. Telling stories. I've also played enough hours in MMOs to know that while a good story is nice, and has been few and far between in MMOs since 1997, story isn't enough by itself enough to keep subscriptions. If Bioware so focuses on telling story and neglects heavily, heavily definging/detailing other facets of gameplay that make a MMO go from "game" to a "world", well, many players, SWG Vets and other MMO players, will be greatly disappointed.
I pre-order almost all Bioware single player games at first opportunity. I won't be with this title. At first glance it looks like a linear follow-the-story offering and I prefer my MMOs to be worlds. If I want to fish, I can fish. If I want to build a manufacturing business, I can. If I want to smuggle elicit goods, I can. Just hopping from quest to quest can be done in a single player, without paying the monthly fee. The fee, to me, is in part due to the game offering more options of highly defined/detailed things to do.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I told here number of times , for year or so.... dont expect nothing from Bioware MMO ,it is going to be rolercoaster ride , as the other half baked crow pie we are seeing ever since the rise of WOW.
Still, even after that i stepped back amazed that Bioware actually managed to make it even worse!
There is nothing to see here.
To put it very simple
SWOTOR is not MMO. SWOTOR is sequal of KOTOR with multiplayer connectivity.
It is going to be on par with latest Bioware games , they are good , so we know what to expect.
why post it here? i mean nobody here can do anything about it and most people are starting to care less and less. go email bioware or lucas arts ffs, atleast then theres a slim chance your crying out can change their course.
Elikal , mate ... I told here number of times , for year or so.... dont expect nothing from Bioware MMO ,it is going to be rolercoaster ride , as the other half baked crow pie we are seeing ever since the rise of WOW. Still, even after that i stepped back amazed that Bioware actually managed to make it even worse! There is nothing to see here. To put it very simple SWOTOR is not MMO. SWOTOR is sequal of KOTOR with multiplayer connectivity.
It is going to be on par with latest Bioware games , they are good , so we know what to expect. But it will not be MMO.... Plain and simple
Sometimes I am thinking that too, but then, it would be such an oddity, my hope is they just presented it kinda the wrong way and didnt think the presentation through. I hope, despite all the riff-raff we read and see now it may come as a pretty normal MMO, and thats a big hope. We heard many announcements of "breathtaking new" MMO styles, take AoC or WAR or Vanguard, and NONE of them really re-invented the wheel. TOR will most likely see the same fate, 80-90% standard MMO fare with some innovations, and would be the best that can happen, given that they dont fall too much into the "theme park" ideology. THAT is acutally my worst fear, and its another WAR-like Disney World were ppl are led from one event encounter to the next.
But its still away. Bioware made their first mistake by only talking so much about their story idea and not at all about the other aspects. But then, history shows Devs are rather unwilling to learn until its too late, usually months or years after launch.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern. Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...
And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.
I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.
What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.
You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.
I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea. I am a former SWG Vet and there are things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR. Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way? Nope. I'm not looking for SWG2 either though. I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was. It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG. This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR. They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE.
See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!
Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.
As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.
I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.
No one here said he wanted SWG 2.0, so I dunno where you make the of. You point and gamer who have experiences and wishes. Having a problem with critique?
So as long as anyone who wants the features of the "greatness" of swg in SWTOR they just have to make sure they don't write swg2 in thier post. This way they can push for swg 2 and then claim "innocently "no one here said he wanted SWG 2.0". It's too obvious.
I think they already said they are aiming at the WoW type suscriber base..so you see they already decided the fate of the game, and with lucas in charge most likely you wont' see that change ever.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
I think they already said they are aiming at the WoW type suscriber base..so you see they already decided the fate of the game, and with lucas in charge most likely you wont' see that change ever.
This the the best post i read so far about the new starwars mmorpg.
If they had rather made a stawars jedi knight jedi academy gameplay and put it in a mmorpg, it be the best mmorpg. But now, i dont think the new starwars online will survive versus other new games. I read the whole 1st post and yeah, i agree with you.
1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids.
I agree on this one, if it looks more like a game based on that SW cartoon on Cartoon Netowrk than SW itself no thanks, I won't even take a look at it in that case.
they're taking the wrong path what do you mean I always thought they were taking the right path but it seems as if they are taking the wroing one what?
I am an SWG vet myself, and first of all let me explain what really attracted me to SWG;
- the sheer number of possibilities there were, i.a. 10000000 things to do.. it sounds strange because people complained about end game content but i never ever was bored..
- the possibility to play a jedi, but, it has to be VERY hard to acomplish this imho.
- the lore offc.. Im a huge SW fan.
Now, i honestly thing that BW and LA can make this happen, those 3 points are no problem for them at all. The only thing what really would make a setback for me personally is that Jedi would be a starting class.. that would really suck tbh.
For the rest i know biowares games and i have no doubt in my mind that this game will be superfuntime.
I just got one question for you OP. How many triple A titles have you developed? Bioware has been doing it for a while. So I would like to hear how many you have made, that makes you so sure you know better then them.
You don't have to have developed any AAA titles to know what you as an individual think is good or bad. You just have to have the ability to not be a sheep and think for yourself.
A degree doesn't make you somehow omnipotent on a given subject. Just means you know how to regurgitate information. A parrot can do that. Neither does experience. Look at George W. Bush. Many years in politics and still screwed up a presidency. Look at various MMO created lately. Launched with severe lacking in multiple areas even with teams of people with "degrees and experience".
No, sorry. College is not a requirement to look at a company's idea, compare it at its basic level to recent relevant products and come to the conclusion that it really isn't so much different than the others. And those others aren't really fairing so well.
And I'm a Bioware fan from the first Baldur's Gate. I know what they do well, very well in fact. Telling stories. I've also played enough hours in MMOs to know that while a good story is nice, and has been few and far between in MMOs since 1997, story isn't enough by itself enough to keep subscriptions. If Bioware so focuses on telling story and neglects heavily, heavily definging/detailing other facets of gameplay that make a MMO go from "game" to a "world", well, many players, SWG Vets and other MMO players, will be greatly disappointed.
I pre-order almost all Bioware single player games at first opportunity. I won't be with this title. At first glance it looks like a linear follow-the-story offering and I prefer my MMOs to be worlds. If I want to fish, I can fish. If I want to build a manufacturing business, I can. If I want to smuggle elicit goods, I can. Just hopping from quest to quest can be done in a single player, without paying the monthly fee. The fee, to me, is in part due to the game offering more options of highly defined/detailed things to do.
I agree, I dont want to be led around doing quest after quest...despite most others, I enjoy just fighting somedays...somedays I just wanna sit around and chat, and some days i wanna craft or harvest goods. As much as I play, if you lead me through quests non stop and don't let me play the game the way I want to I will be done with it in a about a month... I'm not going to want to start a new character over just to try "different" content.
No matter what any other player says, the templates used in SWG were the best thing any MMO has ever done...I could be a master rifleman then switch it up and be a master brawler/Teras Kasi in the next few days if I wanted to....
Then later being done with all the professions I wanted to be, I still had to work on becoming a Jedi...
If they had not changed things, they would still be getting money from my 6 SWG accounts.
First a comment on SWG, I was a beta tester and loved the pre CU SWG, but the problem was that Sony was not getting the player base they wanted after the release of WoW in 2004, and made a mistake that caused a lot of old timer cancellations, and even thou it did increase the overal pop within the first few months of release, in evitably was their downfall. So while the pre-CU was fun, it was not enticing enough people to the game, so if Bioware mimicked SWG theyd just end up with the same old SWG vets, but once again have a problem attracting the millions that are already hooked on WoW, WAR, etc... So while any SWG vet will tell you the original system was the best that there has ever been, the player population told us otherwise.
But the real thing i wanted to comment on was I read alot of posts about soloing and grouping and whether either should be mandated. Im always a fan of why not both, If someone wants to solo, let them solo, if someone wants to group, let them group. Why have any barriers in the way of attracting more population? People forget that this is a game first and foremost, so when people make the comment that nothing should be spoon fed, they are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun, not nerve racking. But on the flip side, as some people want to play games to be challenged they should have that kind of content too. Wow did a good job with that, where there was plenty of easy solo content for days you just wanted to relax, and some real nice party encounters for when you wanted to be on your game and knew you had a chance to wipe. IMO, a developer should do everything in their power to cater to the needs of as many as possible. Thus providing a larger, more full world.
LucasArts is the one that said all those goals, not Bioware, however Bioware probably has to follow it if they want to keep the IP going. LucasArt's idea of pursuing WoW numbers is a mistake right off the bat, the mistake about 10 other companies and their MMORPGs tried to do the past 4 years and all turned out to be a sad disappointment. I don't mind story driven gameplay, Tabula Rasa was sort of that way and it always kept you occupied, it didn't mean that was all there was to do, you take a break, pvp/duel a little, shop around, explore- these will definitely be in SWTOR.
City of Heroes/Villains is heavily team based, now you gain xp and level up faster in a team than you do solo though you CAN solo if you have to or want to, I hope SWTOR will have a way to strongly encourage teaming.
I haven't seen any screenshots of "oversized" weapons, I only saw the pre-alpha screenshot and things looked normal in that picture except a tad cartoony
But the real thing i wanted to comment on was I read alot of posts about soloing and grouping and whether either should be mandated. Im always a fan of why not both, If someone wants to solo, let them solo, if someone wants to group, let them group. Why have any barriers in the way of attracting more population? People forget that this is a game first and foremost, so when people make the comment that nothing should be spoon fed, they are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun, not nerve racking. But on the flip side, as some people want to play games to be challenged they should have that kind of content too. Wow did a good job with that, where there was plenty of easy solo content for days you just wanted to relax, and some real nice party encounters for when you wanted to be on your game and knew you had a chance to wipe. IMO, a developer should do everything in their power to cater to the needs of as many as possible. Thus providing a larger, more full world.
The problem is the people that want to solo the entire time want the exact same gear as someone who takes the time to get a group of people together to kill the harder stuff.
I am not looking for my EQ raiding days back..god knows I loved them though. If someone is willing to work together and accomplish something that is not possible to solo they should get better stuff...otherwise whats the point of even putting it in there? If I can get just as good of gear as the guy taking on a npc 200x tougher than the solo one why should I even bother? Only an idiot would do something like that. Unless its very end game content and at the top tier of equipment for the game currently your just going to replace it anyway once you level past it. Much easier to get that gear through the solo quests and move on.
1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids.
I agree on this one, if it looks more like a game based on that SW cartoon on Cartoon Netowrk than SW itself no thanks, I won't even take a look at it in that case.
Same here, first impressions are that this game is being aimed at 8-12 yr olds(or ppl whose IQ is there abouts) maybe they are wrong but i doubt it more and more
I am an SWG vet myself, and first of all let me explain what really attracted me to SWG; - the sheer number of possibilities there were, i.a. 10000000 things to do.. it sounds strange because people complained about end game content but i never ever was bored.. - the possibility to play a jedi, but, it has to be VERY hard to acomplish this imho. - the lore offc.. Im a huge SW fan. Now, i honestly thing that BW and LA can make this happen, those 3 points are no problem for them at all. The only thing what really would make a setback for me personally is that Jedi would be a starting class.. that would really suck tbh. For the rest i know biowares games and i have no doubt in my mind that this game will be superfuntime.
I just got done posting this some place else, but I will post it here as well. This was to someone who had obvious ties to SWG , which i do as well. But with that said, I believe people need to let go of this, cause you could be very disappointed. Below was a response to the same point of jedi not being a starting class. here ya go...
I cannot agree with your above statement. I am going to quote one of your sources wookiepedia, "[edit] Training Main article: Jedi training
Padawans would typically go on missions with their Jedi Masters to learn from experience; here Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi on a mission to Naboo.Almost all youthful Jedi were initially called Younglings and instructed in "clans" by a venerable, experienced Jedi Master, learning the ways of the Jedi and the powers of the Force. After Ruusan it had become normal that the [Jedi trainees were always children]. Once Yavin 4 had been established as Jedi headquarters, the Jedi initiates, which were no longer children, were trained first under the direction of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and, in time, under another Master's direction in groups. When the New Jedi Order began, the Younglings were again trained in clans from childhood.When an individual student achieved satisfactory understanding of the Jedi way, they were usually taken under the wing of another Jedi member and instructed individually to complete their training. Masters typically brought their Padawans along on missions, and later sent them on missions of their own, to allow them to gain experience and learn from practice."
With that said, The class of Jedi should not be an unlockable job. If becoming a Jedi was purely based on training from a young age, then why would anyone suggest that it would be a unlockable job? Based on the portion that was quoted, it would suggest that a Jedi should be a starting class. Not one that you could work into. I would say that Kyle Katarn would be an exception to the rule but again it is an EXCEPTION versus the rule. In this case if we were to suggest that Bioware would have to make it a unlockable job then we are definitely making the job an EXCEPTION and not the rule. If this is to curb the amount of people of playing Jedi then have to be other ways.
Such as nerfing the class until you get to level 30, Simple abilities can not be unlocked at low levels. Jedi have been known to have a low armor class, that could be an area to expose. There is other ways to do this and the ones that I have stated were examples not the solution.....Making parity will be a creative task for Bioware & a must! But simply making it something that you have to unlock is attempting to not only work harder at trying to obtain the job, but it seems that if you put more time in than the other guy/gal, then you should be rewarded....... That sounds LAME!
If you are going to play the game to be a Jedi you should start that way. This isnt SWG where they are going to make it an obtainable job after you have Mastered 4 professions. That is what caused its demise in the first place. When SOE learned of how many people were leaving the game cause the impossiblity to be able to devote that much time into game was simply ridiculous. People do have lives outside of Video games! This should be an escape from the real world, when you can escape you should be able to enjoy your Jedi, not loath the idea that you have to Master 4 professions then you can be a Jedi.
My point..... This is why I am excited about Bioware making this game. They are well aware of SWG's issues and what has been a dismal game since that change. People were dissappointed that they worked so hard to get to Jedi, while others either could not simply put that much time into get to Jedi or the latter..... Simply put and maybe harder to do, creating this parity for the Jedi class to allow other Characters/Classes to be able to inter mingle will be a big task for Bioware and will have to be pursued with a lot of diligence and objective thinking. Something that I believe Bioware has the ability to do and implement.
I am an SWG vet myself, and first of all let me explain what really attracted me to SWG; - the sheer number of possibilities there were, i.a. 10000000 things to do.. it sounds strange because people complained about end game content but i never ever was bored.. - the possibility to play a jedi, but, it has to be VERY hard to acomplish this imho. - the lore offc.. Im a huge SW fan. Now, i honestly thing that BW and LA can make this happen, those 3 points are no problem for them at all. The only thing what really would make a setback for me personally is that Jedi would be a starting class.. that would really suck tbh. For the rest i know biowares games and i have no doubt in my mind that this game will be superfuntime.
I just got done posting this some place else, but I will post it here as well. This was to someone who had obvious ties to SWG , which i do as well. But with that said, I believe people need to let go of this, cause you could be very disappointed. Below was a response to the same point of jedi not being a starting class.
here ya go...
I cannot agree with your above statement. I am going to quote one of your sources wookiepedia, "[edit] Training Main article: Jedi training
Padawans would typically go on missions with their Jedi Masters to learn from experience; here Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi on a mission to Naboo.Almost all youthful Jedi were initially called Younglings and instructed in "clans" by a venerable, experienced Jedi Master, learning the ways of the Jedi and the powers of the Force. After Ruusan it had become normal that the [Jedi trainees were always children]. Once Yavin 4 had been established as Jedi headquarters, the Jedi initiates, which were no longer children, were trained first under the direction of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and, in time, under another Master's direction in groups. When the New Jedi Order began, the Younglings were again trained in clans from childhood.When an individual student achieved satisfactory understanding of the Jedi way, they were usually taken under the wing of another Jedi member and instructed individually to complete their training. Masters typically brought their Padawans along on missions, and later sent them on missions of their own, to allow them to gain experience and learn from practice."
With that said, The class of Jedi should not be an unlockable job. If becoming a Jedi was purely based on training from a young age, then why would anyone suggest that it would be a unlockable job? Based on the portion that was quoted, it would suggest that a Jedi should be a starting class. Not one that you could work into. I would say that Kyle Katarn would be an exception to the rule but again it is an EXCEPTION versus the rule. In this case if we were to suggest that Bioware would have to make it a unlockable job then we are definitely making the job an EXCEPTION and not the rule. If this is to curb the amount of people of playing Jedi then have to be other ways.
Such as nerfing the class until you get to level 30, Simple abilities can not be unlocked at low levels. Jedi have been known to have a low armor class, that could be an area to expose. There is other ways to do this and the ones that I have stated were examples not the solution.....Making parity will be a creative task for Bioware & a must! But simply making it something that you have to unlock is attempting to not only work harder at trying to obtain the job, but it seems that if you put more time in than the other guy/gal, then you should be rewarded....... That sounds LAME!
If you are going to play the game to be a Jedi you should start that way. This isnt SWG where they are going to make it an obtainable job after you have Mastered 4 professions. That is what caused its demise in the first place. When SOE learned of how many people were leaving the game cause the impossiblity to be able to devote that much time into game was simply ridiculous. People do have lives outside of Video games! This should be an escape from the real world, when you can escape you should be able to enjoy your Jedi, not loath the idea that you have to Master 4 professions then you can be a Jedi.
My point..... This is why I am excited about Bioware making this game. They are well aware of SWG's issues and what has been a dismal game since that change. People were dissappointed that they worked so hard to get to Jedi, while others either could not simply put that much time into get to Jedi or the latter..... Simply put and maybe harder to do, creating this parity for the Jedi class to allow other Characters/Classes to be able to inter mingle will be a big task for Bioware and will have to be pursued with a lot of diligence and objective thinking. Something that I believe Bioware has the ability to do and implement.
I was merely trying to assess Jedi as a starting class. Which I believe that Bioware can do. But after thinking about it. There are other ways than I suggested and one that I thought of came from Final Fantasy online.
I played FF for 4 years and ended up loving this game obviously. It had its own problems... Grouping and the particular grind was outrageous.
But for example, Samurai was an unlockable job. You could only get the advance jobs if you reached level 30 (did not matter what job it was, as long as it was level 30) and did the Samurai quest in order to achieve the status of Samurai. You would need assistance to do the Quest but it was an experience that I was able to share with some of my friends that played FF and were willing to help.
I believe this would work for what you are looking for. Although, since Jedi is a integral part of the story of Star Wars it would be hard to suggest that it cannot be a "starting class". Although, i think it should be, the method I stated above would work for me. But I do believe if there is no other way for Bioware to apply this to there MMO, then this method should work.....
For me as a SWG vet I really want to move past SWG. I know SWTOR will not be a sandpit and I can live with that even though I do not trust Lucas Arts as a management team for any MMORPG they are involved in.
Originally posted by Karahandras Originally posted by AgtSmith Originally posted by Elikal 1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids.
I agree on this one, if it looks more like a game based on that SW cartoon on Cartoon Netowrk than SW itself no thanks, I won't even take a look at it in that case.
Same here, first impressions are that this game is being aimed at 8-12 yr olds(or ppl whose IQ is there abouts) maybe they are wrong but i doubt it more and more hopefully STO will do better As far as I know STO is aiming for console format rather than PC, but don't quote me on that.
Could someone please clear something up for me. Whats STO? I understand this game is TOR, which stands for, "The Old Republic" so what exactly is STO? Thanks
Now, I tried SWG the first day it was released. I played it for a week and couldn't get into the game due to all the problems it had. But, a couple years passed and many SWG fans referred to the game as the holy grail of MMO's,, before the dreadful NGE of course. Which was basically the same way I think about the Ooooold Everquest before PoP was introduced... Anyway, ever since those nightmarish changes to SWG, the true hardcore fans of the game they came to love pleaded for either a pre NGE server, or a completely new SWG game with new tweaks and improvements.
When I first read Bioware was making a, "new and improved Stars Wars MMO" I immediately went to check it out. After reading the overview, my excitement quickly faded and i let out a very loooong sigh.. Personally, as an avid 10 year MMORPG fan, I don't want to see a new Star wars MMO be turned into some single player structured platform game with the "option" of playing with a few friends if they want. I'M SORRY, BUT THATS NOT A TRUE MMORPG. This game will only appeal to young kids, and give it a couple months before they get bored doing the same old stuff and this game will fail because it's not a true MMORPG. Why did AoC fail?? Well because the game claims to be an MMORPG, BUT what i played was a single player rpg with a chat box. Thats not immersive. It's boring playing a game designed to be a MMORPG by yourself. If I wanted to play a structured rpg, i'd do so on my PS3, and not on my pc.
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
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Why would we care about what SWG vets think?
Bioware makes good games and i will take a look at this, as all other games. If it is good, i will buy & play. If not, i won't. Very simple.
And i applaud them to take MMO to a new, unproven directin (story driven). it may work, it may not .. who knows? But at least it is innovative and new.
You should care about the SWG Vets because they are a large customer base that has been craving a replacement. I have no idea how many subscribers there were at peak, but even if it was as low as 300k that's 4.5 million USD per month.
And story driven isn't innovative or new. They're called "Chose Your Own Adventure" books. No matter how much you want to turn left, if left isn't a choice ... sorry for ya'.
Galaxies was innovative because you weren't a reader ... you were an author.
It was 450 000 users in 2004 then it started dropping. And at that time it was a pretty impressive number.
I agree with the "choose your own adventure" comment. Bioware TOR shall be a good game but not one where you really have the choice.
I just got one question for you OP. How many triple A titles have you developed? Bioware has been doing it for a while. So I would like to hear how many you have made, that makes you so sure you know better then them.
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In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Thats entirely irrelevant. You dont have to have cooked a Schnitzel to qualify if it tastes good. Hilarious argument.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It's an apt argument. I've never cooked a schnitzel but I could only tell you if I liked it or not. If a cook came to me and showed facts and reports showing that he has cooked several schnitzels that a great many people liked and won awards, then I would take his word over someone else until I had tried it myself. But even then I could just say whether I liked it or not, not whether a large amount of people did.
His argument is not whether YOU like something, it is whether someone has the ability to make something that other people will like and sell. And bioware has a pretty good track record of this, even though I personally thought their games were fairly boring.
Venge Sunsoar
You don't have to have developed any AAA titles to know what you as an individual think is good or bad. You just have to have the ability to not be a sheep and think for yourself.
A degree doesn't make you somehow omnipotent on a given subject. Just means you know how to regurgitate information. A parrot can do that. Neither does experience. Look at George W. Bush. Many years in politics and still screwed up a presidency. Look at various MMO created lately. Launched with severe lacking in multiple areas even with teams of people with "degrees and experience".
No, sorry. College is not a requirement to look at a company's idea, compare it at its basic level to recent relevant products and come to the conclusion that it really isn't so much different than the others. And those others aren't really fairing so well.
And I'm a Bioware fan from the first Baldur's Gate. I know what they do well, very well in fact. Telling stories. I've also played enough hours in MMOs to know that while a good story is nice, and has been few and far between in MMOs since 1997, story isn't enough by itself enough to keep subscriptions. If Bioware so focuses on telling story and neglects heavily, heavily definging/detailing other facets of gameplay that make a MMO go from "game" to a "world", well, many players, SWG Vets and other MMO players, will be greatly disappointed.
I pre-order almost all Bioware single player games at first opportunity. I won't be with this title. At first glance it looks like a linear follow-the-story offering and I prefer my MMOs to be worlds. If I want to fish, I can fish. If I want to build a manufacturing business, I can. If I want to smuggle elicit goods, I can. Just hopping from quest to quest can be done in a single player, without paying the monthly fee. The fee, to me, is in part due to the game offering more options of highly defined/detailed things to do.
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Chavez y Chavez
Elikal , mate ...
I told here number of times , for year or so.... dont expect nothing from Bioware MMO ,it is going to be rolercoaster ride , as the other half baked crow pie we are seeing ever since the rise of WOW.
Still, even after that i stepped back amazed that Bioware actually managed to make it even worse!
There is nothing to see here.
To put it very simple
SWOTOR is not MMO. SWOTOR is sequal of KOTOR with multiplayer connectivity.
It is going to be on par with latest Bioware games , they are good , so we know what to expect.
But it will not be MMO....
Plain and simple
why post it here? i mean nobody here can do anything about it and most people are starting to care less and less. go email bioware or lucas arts ffs, atleast then theres a slim chance your crying out can change their course.
Sometimes I am thinking that too, but then, it would be such an oddity, my hope is they just presented it kinda the wrong way and didnt think the presentation through. I hope, despite all the riff-raff we read and see now it may come as a pretty normal MMO, and thats a big hope. We heard many announcements of "breathtaking new" MMO styles, take AoC or WAR or Vanguard, and NONE of them really re-invented the wheel. TOR will most likely see the same fate, 80-90% standard MMO fare with some innovations, and would be the best that can happen, given that they dont fall too much into the "theme park" ideology. THAT is acutally my worst fear, and its another WAR-like Disney World were ppl are led from one event encounter to the next.
But its still away. Bioware made their first mistake by only talking so much about their story idea and not at all about the other aspects. But then, history shows Devs are rather unwilling to learn until its too late, usually months or years after launch.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.
I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.
What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.
You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.
I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea. I am a former SWG Vet and there are things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR. Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way? Nope. I'm not looking for SWG2 either though. I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was. It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG. This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR. They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE.
See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!
Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.
As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.
I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.
No one here said he wanted SWG 2.0, so I dunno where you make the of. You point and gamer who have experiences and wishes. Having a problem with critique?
So as long as anyone who wants the features of the "greatness" of swg in SWTOR they just have to make sure they don't write swg2 in thier post. This way they can push for swg 2 and then claim "innocently "no one here said he wanted SWG 2.0". It's too obvious.
I think they already said they are aiming at the WoW type suscriber base..so you see they already decided the fate of the game, and with lucas in charge most likely you wont' see that change ever.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
Of course you won't.
Why would they want another flop like SWG?
This the the best post i read so far about the new starwars mmorpg.
If they had rather made a stawars jedi knight jedi academy gameplay and put it in a mmorpg, it be the best mmorpg. But now, i dont think the new starwars online will survive versus other new games. I read the whole 1st post and yeah, i agree with you.
Like i always say, darkfall online for life.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
I agree on this one, if it looks more like a game based on that SW cartoon on Cartoon Netowrk than SW itself no thanks, I won't even take a look at it in that case.
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they're taking the wrong path what do you mean I always thought they were taking the right path but it seems as if they are taking the wroing one what?
I am an SWG vet myself, and first of all let me explain what really attracted me to SWG;
- the sheer number of possibilities there were, i.a. 10000000 things to do.. it sounds strange because people complained about end game content but i never ever was bored..
- the possibility to play a jedi, but, it has to be VERY hard to acomplish this imho.
- the lore offc.. Im a huge SW fan.
Now, i honestly thing that BW and LA can make this happen, those 3 points are no problem for them at all. The only thing what really would make a setback for me personally is that Jedi would be a starting class.. that would really suck tbh.
For the rest i know biowares games and i have no doubt in my mind that this game will be superfuntime.
You don't have to have developed any AAA titles to know what you as an individual think is good or bad. You just have to have the ability to not be a sheep and think for yourself.
A degree doesn't make you somehow omnipotent on a given subject. Just means you know how to regurgitate information. A parrot can do that. Neither does experience. Look at George W. Bush. Many years in politics and still screwed up a presidency. Look at various MMO created lately. Launched with severe lacking in multiple areas even with teams of people with "degrees and experience".
No, sorry. College is not a requirement to look at a company's idea, compare it at its basic level to recent relevant products and come to the conclusion that it really isn't so much different than the others. And those others aren't really fairing so well.
And I'm a Bioware fan from the first Baldur's Gate. I know what they do well, very well in fact. Telling stories. I've also played enough hours in MMOs to know that while a good story is nice, and has been few and far between in MMOs since 1997, story isn't enough by itself enough to keep subscriptions. If Bioware so focuses on telling story and neglects heavily, heavily definging/detailing other facets of gameplay that make a MMO go from "game" to a "world", well, many players, SWG Vets and other MMO players, will be greatly disappointed.
I pre-order almost all Bioware single player games at first opportunity. I won't be with this title. At first glance it looks like a linear follow-the-story offering and I prefer my MMOs to be worlds. If I want to fish, I can fish. If I want to build a manufacturing business, I can. If I want to smuggle elicit goods, I can. Just hopping from quest to quest can be done in a single player, without paying the monthly fee. The fee, to me, is in part due to the game offering more options of highly defined/detailed things to do.
I agree, I dont want to be led around doing quest after quest...despite most others, I enjoy just fighting somedays...somedays I just wanna sit around and chat, and some days i wanna craft or harvest goods. As much as I play, if you lead me through quests non stop and don't let me play the game the way I want to I will be done with it in a about a month... I'm not going to want to start a new character over just to try "different" content.
No matter what any other player says, the templates used in SWG were the best thing any MMO has ever done...I could be a master rifleman then switch it up and be a master brawler/Teras Kasi in the next few days if I wanted to....
Then later being done with all the professions I wanted to be, I still had to work on becoming a Jedi...
If they had not changed things, they would still be getting money from my 6 SWG accounts.
First a comment on SWG, I was a beta tester and loved the pre CU SWG, but the problem was that Sony was not getting the player base they wanted after the release of WoW in 2004, and made a mistake that caused a lot of old timer cancellations, and even thou it did increase the overal pop within the first few months of release, in evitably was their downfall. So while the pre-CU was fun, it was not enticing enough people to the game, so if Bioware mimicked SWG theyd just end up with the same old SWG vets, but once again have a problem attracting the millions that are already hooked on WoW, WAR, etc... So while any SWG vet will tell you the original system was the best that there has ever been, the player population told us otherwise.
But the real thing i wanted to comment on was I read alot of posts about soloing and grouping and whether either should be mandated. Im always a fan of why not both, If someone wants to solo, let them solo, if someone wants to group, let them group. Why have any barriers in the way of attracting more population? People forget that this is a game first and foremost, so when people make the comment that nothing should be spoon fed, they are forgetting that games are supposed to be fun, not nerve racking. But on the flip side, as some people want to play games to be challenged they should have that kind of content too. Wow did a good job with that, where there was plenty of easy solo content for days you just wanted to relax, and some real nice party encounters for when you wanted to be on your game and knew you had a chance to wipe. IMO, a developer should do everything in their power to cater to the needs of as many as possible. Thus providing a larger, more full world.
LucasArts is the one that said all those goals, not Bioware, however Bioware probably has to follow it if they want to keep the IP going. LucasArt's idea of pursuing WoW numbers is a mistake right off the bat, the mistake about 10 other companies and their MMORPGs tried to do the past 4 years and all turned out to be a sad disappointment. I don't mind story driven gameplay, Tabula Rasa was sort of that way and it always kept you occupied, it didn't mean that was all there was to do, you take a break, pvp/duel a little, shop around, explore- these will definitely be in SWTOR.
City of Heroes/Villains is heavily team based, now you gain xp and level up faster in a team than you do solo though you CAN solo if you have to or want to, I hope SWTOR will have a way to strongly encourage teaming.
I haven't seen any screenshots of "oversized" weapons, I only saw the pre-alpha screenshot and things looked normal in that picture except a tad cartoony
The problem is the people that want to solo the entire time want the exact same gear as someone who takes the time to get a group of people together to kill the harder stuff.
I am not looking for my EQ raiding days back..god knows I loved them though. If someone is willing to work together and accomplish something that is not possible to solo they should get better stuff...otherwise whats the point of even putting it in there? If I can get just as good of gear as the guy taking on a npc 200x tougher than the solo one why should I even bother? Only an idiot would do something like that. Unless its very end game content and at the top tier of equipment for the game currently your just going to replace it anyway once you level past it. Much easier to get that gear through the solo quests and move on.
I agree on this one, if it looks more like a game based on that SW cartoon on Cartoon Netowrk than SW itself no thanks, I won't even take a look at it in that case.
Same here, first impressions are that this game is being aimed at 8-12 yr olds(or ppl whose IQ is there abouts
) maybe they are wrong but i doubt it more and more
hopefully STO will do better
I just got done posting this some place else, but I will post it here as well. This was to someone who had obvious ties to SWG , which i do as well. But with that said, I believe people need to let go of this, cause you could be very disappointed. Below was a response to the same point of jedi not being a starting class. here ya go...
I cannot agree with your above statement. I am going to quote one of your sources wookiepedia, "[edit] Training Main article: Jedi training
Padawans would typically go on missions with their Jedi Masters to learn from experience; here Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi on a mission to Naboo.Almost all youthful Jedi were initially called Younglings and instructed in "clans" by a venerable, experienced Jedi Master, learning the ways of the Jedi and the powers of the Force. After Ruusan it had become normal that the [Jedi trainees were always children]. Once Yavin 4 had been established as Jedi headquarters, the Jedi initiates, which were no longer children, were trained first under the direction of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and, in time, under another Master's direction in groups. When the New Jedi Order began, the Younglings were again trained in clans from childhood.When an individual student achieved satisfactory understanding of the Jedi way, they were usually taken under the wing of another Jedi member and instructed individually to complete their training. Masters typically brought their Padawans along on missions, and later sent them on missions of their own, to allow them to gain experience and learn from practice."
With that said, The class of Jedi should not be an unlockable job. If becoming a Jedi was purely based on training from a young age, then why would anyone suggest that it would be a unlockable job? Based on the portion that was quoted, it would suggest that a Jedi should be a starting class. Not one that you could work into. I would say that Kyle Katarn would be an exception to the rule but again it is an EXCEPTION versus the rule. In this case if we were to suggest that Bioware would have to make it a unlockable job then we are definitely making the job an EXCEPTION and not the rule. If this is to curb the amount of people of playing Jedi then have to be other ways.
Such as nerfing the class until you get to level 30, Simple abilities can not be unlocked at low levels. Jedi have been known to have a low armor class, that could be an area to expose. There is other ways to do this and the ones that I have stated were examples not the solution.....Making parity will be a creative task for Bioware & a must! But simply making it something that you have to unlock is attempting to not only work harder at trying to obtain the job, but it seems that if you put more time in than the other guy/gal, then you should be rewarded....... That sounds LAME!
If you are going to play the game to be a Jedi you should start that way. This isnt SWG where they are going to make it an obtainable job after you have Mastered 4 professions. That is what caused its demise in the first place. When SOE learned of how many people were leaving the game cause the impossiblity to be able to devote that much time into game was simply ridiculous. People do have lives outside of Video games! This should be an escape from the real world, when you can escape you should be able to enjoy your Jedi, not loath the idea that you have to Master 4 professions then you can be a Jedi.
My point..... This is why I am excited about Bioware making this game. They are well aware of SWG's issues and what has been a dismal game since that change. People were dissappointed that they worked so hard to get to Jedi, while others either could not simply put that much time into get to Jedi or the latter..... Simply put and maybe harder to do, creating this parity for the Jedi class to allow other Characters/Classes to be able to inter mingle will be a big task for Bioware and will have to be pursued with a lot of diligence and objective thinking. Something that I believe Bioware has the ability to do and implement.
I just got done posting this some place else, but I will post it here as well. This was to someone who had obvious ties to SWG , which i do as well. But with that said, I believe people need to let go of this, cause you could be very disappointed. Below was a response to the same point of jedi not being a starting class.
here ya go...
I cannot agree with your above statement. I am going to quote one of your sources wookiepedia, "[edit] Training Main article: Jedi training
Padawans would typically go on missions with their Jedi Masters to learn from experience; here Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi on a mission to Naboo.Almost all youthful Jedi were initially called Younglings and instructed in "clans" by a venerable, experienced Jedi Master, learning the ways of the Jedi and the powers of the Force. After Ruusan it had become normal that the [Jedi trainees were always children]. Once Yavin 4 had been established as Jedi headquarters, the Jedi initiates, which were no longer children, were trained first under the direction of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and, in time, under another Master's direction in groups. When the New Jedi Order began, the Younglings were again trained in clans from childhood.When an individual student achieved satisfactory understanding of the Jedi way, they were usually taken under the wing of another Jedi member and instructed individually to complete their training. Masters typically brought their Padawans along on missions, and later sent them on missions of their own, to allow them to gain experience and learn from practice."
With that said, The class of Jedi should not be an unlockable job. If becoming a Jedi was purely based on training from a young age, then why would anyone suggest that it would be a unlockable job? Based on the portion that was quoted, it would suggest that a Jedi should be a starting class. Not one that you could work into. I would say that Kyle Katarn would be an exception to the rule but again it is an EXCEPTION versus the rule. In this case if we were to suggest that Bioware would have to make it a unlockable job then we are definitely making the job an EXCEPTION and not the rule. If this is to curb the amount of people of playing Jedi then have to be other ways.
Such as nerfing the class until you get to level 30, Simple abilities can not be unlocked at low levels. Jedi have been known to have a low armor class, that could be an area to expose. There is other ways to do this and the ones that I have stated were examples not the solution.....Making parity will be a creative task for Bioware & a must! But simply making it something that you have to unlock is attempting to not only work harder at trying to obtain the job, but it seems that if you put more time in than the other guy/gal, then you should be rewarded....... That sounds LAME!
If you are going to play the game to be a Jedi you should start that way. This isnt SWG where they are going to make it an obtainable job after you have Mastered 4 professions. That is what caused its demise in the first place. When SOE learned of how many people were leaving the game cause the impossiblity to be able to devote that much time into game was simply ridiculous. People do have lives outside of Video games! This should be an escape from the real world, when you can escape you should be able to enjoy your Jedi, not loath the idea that you have to Master 4 professions then you can be a Jedi.
My point..... This is why I am excited about Bioware making this game. They are well aware of SWG's issues and what has been a dismal game since that change. People were dissappointed that they worked so hard to get to Jedi, while others either could not simply put that much time into get to Jedi or the latter..... Simply put and maybe harder to do, creating this parity for the Jedi class to allow other Characters/Classes to be able to inter mingle will be a big task for Bioware and will have to be pursued with a lot of diligence and objective thinking. Something that I believe Bioware has the ability to do and implement.
I was merely trying to assess Jedi as a starting class. Which I believe that Bioware can do. But after thinking about it. There are other ways than I suggested and one that I thought of came from Final Fantasy online.
I played FF for 4 years and ended up loving this game obviously. It had its own problems... Grouping and the particular grind was outrageous.
But for example, Samurai was an unlockable job. You could only get the advance jobs if you reached level 30 (did not matter what job it was, as long as it was level 30) and did the Samurai quest in order to achieve the status of Samurai. You would need assistance to do the Quest but it was an experience that I was able to share with some of my friends that played FF and were willing to help.
I believe this would work for what you are looking for. Although, since Jedi is a integral part of the story of Star Wars it would be hard to suggest that it cannot be a "starting class". Although, i think it should be, the method I stated above would work for me. But I do believe if there is no other way for Bioware to apply this to there MMO, then this method should work.....
For me as a SWG vet I really want to move past SWG. I know SWTOR will not be a sandpit and I can live with that even though I do not trust Lucas Arts as a management team for any MMORPG they are involved in.
I agree on this one, if it looks more like a game based on that SW cartoon on Cartoon Netowrk than SW itself no thanks, I won't even take a look at it in that case.
Same here, first impressions are that this game is being aimed at 8-12 yr olds(or ppl whose IQ is there abouts) maybe they are wrong but i doubt it more and more
hopefully STO will do better
As far as I know STO is aiming for console format rather than PC, but don't quote me on that.
Could someone please clear something up for me. Whats STO? I understand this game is TOR, which stands for, "The Old Republic" so what exactly is STO? Thanks
Now, I tried SWG the first day it was released. I played it for a week and couldn't get into the game due to all the problems it had. But, a couple years passed and many SWG fans referred to the game as the holy grail of MMO's,, before the dreadful NGE of course. Which was basically the same way I think about the Ooooold Everquest before PoP was introduced... Anyway, ever since those nightmarish changes to SWG, the true hardcore fans of the game they came to love pleaded for either a pre NGE server, or a completely new SWG game with new tweaks and improvements.
When I first read Bioware was making a, "new and improved Stars Wars MMO" I immediately went to check it out. After reading the overview, my excitement quickly faded and i let out a very loooong sigh..
Personally, as an avid 10 year MMORPG fan, I don't want to see a new Star wars MMO be turned into some single player structured platform game with the "option" of playing with a few friends if they want. I'M SORRY, BUT THATS NOT A TRUE MMORPG. This game will only appeal to young kids, and give it a couple months before they get bored doing the same old stuff and this game will fail because it's not a true MMORPG. Why did AoC fail?? Well because the game claims to be an MMORPG, BUT what i played was a single player rpg with a chat box. Thats not immersive. It's boring playing a game designed to be a MMORPG by yourself. If I wanted to play a structured rpg, i'd do so on my PS3, and not on my pc.
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)