long live theme parks, where you're giving the oppotunity to enhance your power not only your skill!! Keep in mind, never forget.. MMOs are about time-investing. Grinds are at the heart of every MMO. Thats why there are levels. Sandbox mmo = lukewarm MMO if you want sandbox pvp, where everybody has basically the same amount of power, and skill is really the only determinate for victory... then you should go play a FPS instead MMOs are for time.
There's about a dozen misconceptions there.
Skill is power is gear is stats is levels. It's all just a way of having progression.
People invest time in what they find fun. To make something time consuming but not fun is to fail. Not everyone finds the same thing fun.
Sandbox MMO = Themepark MMO. All MMOs are both only the mechanics vary.
A FPS has no progression, a MMOs does that's one of the differences. Player skill is always a determinant in any game. What player skills you use is game dependant though.
Subscription MMOs are for keeping players subscribed time has no real meaning. If you play one hour a month you pay the same subscription as someone who plays 720.
Thinking skill is "just a way of having progression" and then saying a FPS has not progression is just wrong. (if skill = progession, and FPS has skill, then FPS has progression; I don't agree with your terms but am pointing out the inherent contradiction I see)
Saying a sandbox MMO = thempark MMO is also wrong.
You may wish to blur the lines since by definition an MMO must have levels, but then you're simply missing the point. There's a reason the two terms have been created. To give a name to an MMO that has a level-grind and then instance-grinds (or other gear-grinds).. which is theme park; and a name to an MMO that has a level-grind and then no (or few) gear grinds.
The latter (sandbox MMO) wishes endgame pvp content to be similiar to an FPS game, in that most people have the same general power as one another and matches are determined mostly by skill.
I say, why do that when you could have your skill-based FPS game right now, rather than going through a level-grind? Because personally I would rather get my skill-based, instant satisfaction from a game designed specifically for that. Likewise I would rather get my grind(time)-based, invest-satisfaction from a game designed for that.
Sandbox MMO is like lukewarm water. Some warm, some cold.
I'd rather play my FPS games when I want that skill, and a Themepark (correctly understood as such) MMO when I want time-investing.
but thats me
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
-hobbles from the back of the room with my robe and wizard hat on-
-ahem-
I remember 8 years ago when i started playing EQ 1 and I had to sit in Overthere for hours a day and only to get a level every week or so, and that was in the 40s to 50s, I remember when you where going after an epic it would take you almost a year to get that one weapon that was supposed to compliment your class to the letter only for it to be so disappointing, it was like masterbating with sandpaper. Now epics are an entire suit that everyone in the game has because they are easy to get.
I have always looked forward to a game that has a story driven level based theme, think about, it may take you a year of real time to get there, you achieve your destiny as it where then you are maxed and can do whatever you want. But of course just like life you can falter from your path and do what ever you want making it take longer to get there.
Anyone who still believes in these game companies is a moron. If after the consistent flow of crap this industry has given us you still defend them without the evidence to do so its you who has the problem, not the OP. This industry has lost the benefit of the doubt when it comes to development of decent mmos, it makes crap and the mindless f**cking drones just keep disparaging anyone who gets tired of it and says so. Fact is, you're probably never gonna get any decent discourse about any unreleased/newly released games on this forum because any criticism gets drowned out by mindless fanbois until its absolutely obvious that a game is crap. If mmos were like big old subway trains comin down a dark tunnel with us forum posters walkin down the track, I wonder if everytime some of us saw a big bright light they'd say "that could be a lantern" and when they heard the train whistle "that could be some sort of rat mating call" and keep walking on the tracks. How many times as a consumerbase do we have to be run over until we start out with skepticism when we see that first sign of trouble instead of unfaultering optimism?
I see, so your point is guilty till proven innocent. All games are crap untill they prove to you otherwise, and of course just because say a game like WoW has 12 million subscribers its still crap because its not a open world sanboxy skill based game that you want?
So tell me what exactly is the first sign of trouble you see in SWTOR. That its not a sand box, which is something biowares devs have been stating for a long time? That its not skill based, hell skills are just micro levels (ie advancements on a smaller scale)
I don't believe one should have blind faith, but on the other hand I really don't think theres been enough information released on a MMo that still has 3-4 years left in developement to leap to the accusations you have
Never said anything about wanting it to be a sandbox, my problem is that almost every game that's come out in the last few years has been crap and there were early signs there were issues but their fanbois always shouted down any opposition. My rant is against that mindset, I could care less about KOTOR.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" (Psalm 94:16)
OP, you seem upset that the new game won't be SWG. It was never going to be. Bioware has its own vision of what sort of game it plans on making (big selling, just like WOW) and followning the path of SWG was never on the table. (I recall early interviews with their CEO) They tell stories and do it better than anyone else. People used to play their single player games for the stories, not the inspiring combat mechanics. Like you, I'd love to see another world simulation game, but you'll have to hope a smallet development house takes the leap and creates it. The big boys are all going for mass market appeal. Besides, they'll probably want to put it on a console.
If you read what I wrote you would understand that it is not about whether or not they re-make SWG but whether or not they charge 20$ for a lazy production which is not a real open world. Why pay many $ for essentially single/multiplayer online games that are not massive? Or even roleplaying..?
By the way - console is no argument. The consoles of today are advanced enough that you could create open worlds like I describe on them ...
Bioware with SW:TOR went the lazy / greedy way..
OK, I'll double back for you and take the SWG out of the equation. (since that's all you saw)
Games sell well. Open worlds don't. Bioware wants to sell a lot. They won't be making an open world.
Oh yes, regarding greed, remember what Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". Companies exist to make as much money as possible, no other purpose. They will develop games that they feel will accomplish this goal. (regardless whether they manage to actually do it)
Open worlds don't? I'm sorry but I have to agree with the OP even though he seems a bit preachy, I mean why do you think WAR is falling apart as we speak. Players expected the entire Warhammer universe to be interpreted in the game. And all they got was another game that aimed at grind for pointless gear in a box(battlegrounds/scenarios). Either then the technical issues and class balancing that that game is dealing with. If WAR could have held it's promise to be an ORVR game it wouldn't be in the state it is now.....
I feel bad for the OP. He seems hellbent on destroying "themepark" MMOs. There's this great open world simulation called "real life" and I think it'll give you much more enjoyment. I think MMOs are far away from the things you want because, frankly, for every person who wants a sandbox there are a thousand more silent voices that are just fine with this "easymode dumby omgwtfbbq so simple lawl themepark" thing that WoW and its familiars are doing. Hint, they don't come to this site very often
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
This post is about as practical as openining a book, reading three paragraphs, and then giving a summary about it. I tried this in high school many times, and like the OP, I failed with outrageous misery as my companion.
I loved the quote about how he wants to make his own story, insulting BioWare's ability to provide interesting gameplay. Because as we all know in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Mass Effect, no one ever had the opportunity to create their own story.
Insert YouTube clip of debate moderator in Billy Madison after Adam Sandler's reply. Nibb High Football rules, Draccan.
This post is about as practical as openining a book, reading three paragraphs, and then giving a summary about it. I tried this in high school many times, and like the OP, I failed with outrageous misery as my companion. I loved the quote about how he wants to make his own story, insulting BioWare's ability to provide interesting gameplay. Because as we all know in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Mass Effect, no one ever had the opportunity to create their own story. Insert YouTube clip of debate moderator in Billy Madison after Adam Sandler's reply. Nibb High Football rules, Draccan.
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
Both of those examples would give a player interested in such just as much a fulfilling gameplay experience as the guy trudging along the main story arch and saving the galaxy. Personally I think both options are key to a great MMO. It does require a level of depth and variety in various other gameplay features that, at this point in time, I don't believe Bioware is going to devote much attention to, if any.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
This post is about as practical as openining a book, reading three paragraphs, and then giving a summary about it. I tried this in high school many times, and like the OP, I failed with outrageous misery as my companion. I loved the quote about how he wants to make his own story, insulting BioWare's ability to provide interesting gameplay. Because as we all know in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Mass Effect, no one ever had the opportunity to create their own story. Insert YouTube clip of debate moderator in Billy Madison after Adam Sandler's reply. Nibb High Football rules, Draccan.
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
In regards to the story. I have truly, never understood this apparent train of thought that if there IS a story present, you can't have your own. That is, quite frankly, hilarious. What keeps you from coming up with your own stories, even if you have a story provided in the game? It didn't keep me from coming up with many stories when I played DAoC (yes, I RPed there, *gasp*) or WoW, or EVE, or other games.
The rest of this paragraph is based on plain adbsence of knowledge. No one knows the crafting system in the game yet. No one knows what kind of options you will have. All you know so far, is that it will be story-driven. Period. Yet the OP takes that and deduces from it that it will be (his personal) nightmare without really knowing anything about the game.
Both of those examples would give a player interested in such just as much a fulfilling gameplay experience as the guy trudging along the main story arch and saving the galaxy. Personally I think both options are key to a great MMO. It does require a level of depth and variety in various other gameplay features that, at this point in time, I don't believe Bioware is going to devote much attention to, if any.
And that is exactly why people dislike posts like those from the OP. No one has a clue yet what kind of systems BioWare will implement. No one knows any details and still, people make up their minds as though they have already tested a finished product. This, above all else, is what is annoying as hell. We all know -NOTHING- of how this game is going to play and educated guesses is the best we can do. Saying that the game will be totally instanced, linear to the max, and without any deep crafting or other social aspects at this point of time is NOT an educated guess, it is plain trolling.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
And what keeps BioWare from taking the StoryAspect of their game and ADD it to other MMO components? You know, like they actually said they would. They said they want to -FOCUS- on the story as a fourth pillar, but not ignore all the rest. I highly doubt you'll be able to be a farmer, that is a topic for another thread (and there are oh so many about it), but that does not mean there won't be CHOICES for you. In fact, BiOWare have said repeatedly that CHOICE is actually a very big issue in this game.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
In any case. I have no problem with the Sandbox-Fans, as long as they don't do what the OP did. He takes what little information there is on a game and twists it into some kind of horror-scenario and denounces the game without any solid info/proof. That is, in my eyes, what ticks off most people.
If he doesn't like the game, fine and well. if he doesn't like the sort of game BioWare makes...well then why did he even bother to check it out? And why bother ranting on the forum that "the hot air is out of the baloon". See, the topic sort of suggests that BioWare promised something and failed to deliver...yet they haven't promised anything they could have failed to deliver.
It's not his choice of game or his choice of world people are angry about, it's his way of trying to put down a game about which he knows zip and obviously also has no interest in.
Can't believe this thread is 4 pages now, who cares what this guy thinks?
I do because of all the hilarious assumptions and "predictions" that are tossed across the forum. I'm just entertained how people can be so blindfolded
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The op just seems to have the belief that his style of mmo (open sandbox world simulation) is superior to a story driven mmo. There is a reason story driven games are more popular than simulation type games.. Arcade racers do much better then more technical driving simulators, madden/fifa do better then coach/managing simulations, command and conquer do better then war simulators, etc, etc.. it's not that I'm saying one style is better then the other, but more casual friendly, story driven games will always sell better then their "simulator" counterpart. Bioware can easily make an incredible story driven mmo if they do it correctly, and just because it's not a skill based open world sandbox, does NOT mean it will be WoW with lightsabers.
To make such a snap judgment on a game with so little information is incredibly naive. Just because Bioware is not following your preferred "style" of game does not mean it will be a failure. It's astonishing, the near fanaticism that some sandbox game fans spout. I enjoy a good complicated simulation type game from time to time, but to think that one style of game is so superior to another due to your opinion is a bit close minded.
This post is about as practical as openining a book, reading three paragraphs, and then giving a summary about it. I tried this in high school many times, and like the OP, I failed with outrageous misery as my companion. I loved the quote about how he wants to make his own story, insulting BioWare's ability to provide interesting gameplay. Because as we all know in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Mass Effect, no one ever had the opportunity to create their own story. Insert YouTube clip of debate moderator in Billy Madison after Adam Sandler's reply. Nibb High Football rules, Draccan.
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
In regards to the story. I have truly, never understood this apparent train of thought that if there IS a story present, you can't have your own. That is, quite frankly, hilarious. What keeps you from coming up with your own stories, even if you have a story provided in the game? It didn't keep me from coming up with many stories when I played DAoC (yes, I RPed there, *gasp*) or WoW, or EVE, or other games.
The rest of this paragraph is based on plain adbsence of knowledge. No one knows the crafting system in the game yet. No one knows what kind of options you will have. All you know so far, is that it will be story-driven. Period. Yet the OP takes that and deduces from it that it will be (his personal) nightmare without really knowing anything about the game.
I don't understand that train of thought either. Good thing I didn't state that, right? I just hope Bioware understands that as well and in tandem with the "Story" elements they are pushing in PR they don't forget that many others would like the option of playing out a story they have in mind for their character and implement in depth the necessary tools that allow players to tell those tales. You RP'd in DAOC? Wow! I did too, on Percival. It was great!
As far as the absence of knowledge, sure, I can agree about that. In that same vein that absence doesn't prove that Bioware will implement an in depth crafting system or any other option in a healthy dose so that players can be creative and actually have meaningful "props" to use on their "stage" to tell their individual tales. We indeed just have to wait and see. Recent past experiences from MMO releases prove that this isn't included in the forumla for making MMOs. And as it has been mentioned time and again the devlopers from the different companies do talk alot amongst each other.
Both of those examples would give a player interested in such just as much a fulfilling gameplay experience as the guy trudging along the main story arch and saving the galaxy. Personally I think both options are key to a great MMO. It does require a level of depth and variety in various other gameplay features that, at this point in time, I don't believe Bioware is going to devote much attention to, if any.
And that is exactly why people dislike posts like those from the OP. No one has a clue yet what kind of systems BioWare will implement. No one knows any details and still, people make up their minds as though they have already tested a finished product. This, above all else, is what is annoying as hell. We all know -NOTHING- of how this game is going to play and educated guesses is the best we can do. Saying that the game will be totally instanced, linear to the max, and without any deep crafting or other social aspects at this point of time is NOT an educated guess, it is plain trolling.
Nothing I don't already know here and haven't said to a certain degree in my first post on this thread. Some people don't have a penchant for expressing themselves in an objective manner. Given the response on this thread I'd step out on a limb and say the OP is guilty of that this go around.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
And what keeps BioWare from taking the StoryAspect of their game and ADD it to other MMO components? You know, like they actually said they would. They said they want to -FOCUS- on the story as a fourth pillar, but not ignore all the rest. I highly doubt you'll be able to be a farmer, that is a topic for another thread (and there are oh so many about it), but that does not mean there won't be CHOICES for you. In fact, BiOWare have said repeatedly that CHOICE is actually a very big issue in this game.
The only thing that possibly could: Bioware. It's not only a measure of them incorporating other proven aspects into the game along with their Story focus. It also, and extremely key, is a matter of them doing it in a very healthy, abundant manner. Funcom rang the halls of the forums of MMO gamers with their focus on "Combat, combat, combat" while half-heartedly putting any focus (though they said at the time, because they had to, that they had a good crafting system in place as well) on any other aspects of MMO gameplay. Giving due to their other issues, look where it got them. Mythic' WAR has very little else to do but grind Scenarios. Open RVR if virtually non-existent (when looking at all servers combined) and their is no crafting or other gameplay mechanics that would bring players together, either to war or to create, and that game is slowly fading.
The worrying part, at least for me, is that, while yes we have only gotten limited information, it would have been just a little bit inspiring if they had made significant mention of some of the gameplay mechanics in a way that let even the most dense of folks know that some heavy thought was going into them. I know there is a high probability they will be there. But the degree to which they will is my concern. And I'm not advocating they cut corners on the Story focus point.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
In any case. I have no problem with the Sandbox-Fans, as long as they don't do what the OP did. He takes what little information there is on a game and twists it into some kind of horror-scenario and denounces the game without any solid info/proof. That is, in my eyes, what ticks off most people.
If he doesn't like the game, fine and well. if he doesn't like the sort of game BioWare makes...well then why did he even bother to check it out? And why bother ranting on the forum that "the hot air is out of the baloon". See, the topic sort of suggests that BioWare promised something and failed to deliver...yet they haven't promised anything they could have failed to deliver.
It's not his choice of game or his choice of world people are angry about, it's his way of trying to put down a game about which he knows zip and obviously also has no interest in.
I can agree that the manner in which the OP posted isn't the most....agreeable manner in which to state an opinion. That said, and looking past how he said it (stating it as a fact) and taking it in as being stated as a concerned opinion, the OP has some merit. I can't name one AAA development house that is taking a big time IP and mould together and well thought out story, combat system, crafting system, emotes, housing and mount system. By well thought out, imagine if you will all of the above systems had the breadth and diversity of (oh my god he's going to invoke that game name) SWG(pre-nge) crafting system. Believe me, I HATE the phrase, but these kiddos around here talk about "WoW-killer". A game like that would make a serious run at those subscription numbers.
I just don't think Bioware is going to give that much attention to all those systems. the Story element they will. But the others, I highly doubt. I would absolutly love to be wrong, mind you. But from what I've read from interviews so far, especially the "iconic" word being thrown around (that word was one of the catch words for the NGE, which leaves no doubt in my mind now of the role Lucas Arts played in it), I can certainly begin to form an educated opinion/guess/hypothesis of what this game is heading toward at the moment.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
In regard to Kalathwyr's epic novella in response to two sentences I wrote:
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
If by making the bold assertion that the original poster is poorly summarizing a game that hasn't come out yet is wrong, then I stand corrected. Despite your sarcastically candid remarks about my liking "pre planned (sic)" stories, they are in fact insulting. Mostly because I never once asserted I like said stories. You must have completely missed the concept, and the references for that matter, of my post. What story that one may or may not want is irrelevant to the context of my post. I just don't care.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
I have never, or will never, subjectively criticize ones style or taste of game. The point of the post is that one can't objectively make an educated guess regarding BioWare's product that hasn't even been launched. What you've essentially done here is not only assume that I like linear games, but also that I'm so narrowly subjective that I can't comprehend that other people may like to play games that I don't. This is simply stupid, for lack of a better word because I'm tired. Your argument, despite a faux populistic approach to objectivity (I now dub you Ayn Rand), is that I should take a more macro view when criticising gamers' tastes. What I find hypocritical and ironic is that in the same breath you assert that simply because a game entails a linear play environment, one can't have a personal story (Have you played Planescape:Torment?). In your praise for sandbox games you've completely contridicted your statements. One could argue that every story is linear in the most basic of principles. Should I include an insult about how you should be the space pioneer that CCP wants you to be? Should I start telling you that linear game styles are what some players may want to play, and that you should be more objective in praising games that are more open-ended?
In sum, I have no idea how you could remotely go off on this ridiculous tangent derived from two lines I wrote. I don't think it was out of the question to assume that the origianl poster was filing a grievance against BioWare's ability to produce this game. Anyone who asserts that they can make an educated guess at the final outcome of this game needs to re-evaluate their methods, or most importantly, their education. I'm sorry I made a clever post response and you felt it was your duty to one-up me while at the same time defend the OP, who made absolutely no merit or sense in his post.
If they want 20$ a month they should do something to deserve it.
You can agree or disagree but it is plain for all those who dare open their eyes, that this game will cater to the "ohh wow jedis with lightsabers kiddy crowd" - and not to mature players. Bioware stresses their love of story only as an excuse to not make a real full mmo. This saves them money and they hope they get that SW kiddy crowd. Fine. It is a design choice maybe - just don't charge a monthly fee if you just plan on holding a player's hand through X levels through a so-called story..
I would think that spending $100 million making a game is reasonable justification for asking for a return on your investment - like $20 a month.
I also doubt that their design is saving them money. Sure they could create a wide open sandbox with no story line and say - hey pay us $20 a month and create your own story. That would bring the OP and a handful of other people - again not a good return on a $100 million investment.
And I do disagree - I think they are catering to the crowd that want to play a hero (the usual single player game territory) than the I want to recreate my day job crowd. By focusing on the story hopefully we will see a difference from the usual nobody is a hero type MMO. ie put the Role play back into the genre, whilst allowing people to play a non heroic but useful role if they wish.
In regard to Kalathwyr's epic novella in response to two sentences I wrote: There's an "h" missing in my name. It's right after the "K". I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players. If by making the bold assertion that the original poster is poorly summarizing a game that hasn't come out yet is wrong, then I stand corrected. Despite your sarcastically candid remarks about my liking "pre planned (sic)" stories, they are in fact insulting. Mostly because I never once asserted I like said stories. You must have completely missed the concept, and the references for that matter, of my post. What story that one may or may not want is irrelevant to the context of my post. I just don't care. Perception is reality, granted. that said, your perception is way out of whack. I wasn't being sarcastic. Maybe it is you that may need to take up writing "epic novellas" as opposed to "two sentences" when attempting to make a point. Sure, I am the one who responded, but I know I'm not the only one who had no idea, as you suggest, where you were going. (sarcasm) Don't be afraid to wrote more than two sentences.(/sarcasm) See, I let you know up front when I'm being sarcastic. And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies. Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be. I have never, or will never, subjectively criticize ones style or taste of game. The point of the post is that one can't objectively make an educated guess regarding BioWare's product that hasn't even been launched. There would be no point in making an "educated guess" on something that has launched. At that point people would pretty much know what to expect in concrete terms. It is perfectl;y acceptable, maybe not to you but to others, to look at current industry trends from a variety of AAA companies and see that their offerings pretty much offer the same. It is then fair to guess in an educated manner that Bioware will in turn follow suit. They may not, but odds are they will because at current it is an oft used template for pushing out a MMO. What you've essentially done here is not only assume that I like linear games, but also that I'm so narrowly subjective that I can't comprehend that other people may like to play games that I don't. I don't take for granted that other folks are capable of understanding that other people like different things when posting on forums. Especially with someone that I just met. On that point my apologies. This is simply stupid, for lack of a better word because I'm tired. Your argument, despite a faux populistic approach to objectivity (I now dub you Ayn Rand), I'm not a Russian woman. is that I should take a more macro view when criticising gamers' tastes. In terms of looking at the core of what they are writing and its overall releveance, yes. Looking at what someone is saying as opposed to how they are saying it can find truths veiled in anger. What I find hypocritical and ironic is that in the same breath you assert that simply because a game entails a linear play environment, one can't have a personal story (Have you played Planescape:Torment?). Okay, I'm not sure where you came to that conclusion as I have never stated such. In fact, you can read my reply above your last and I state there that the two can exist and that the concern for this game, as has been glaring clear in recent AAA releases, is that little is any attention will be given to gameplay elements that will aid in players having a personal story. Your assumption here is wrong. In your praise for sandbox games you've completely contridicted your statements. It may seem that way only because you made an incorrect assumption, of which point was indeed clarified in the post written before your rebuttal. One could argue that every story is linear in the most basic of principles. Should I include an insult about how you should be the space pioneer that CCP wants you to be? Only if you deem it necessary to illustrating your point. Again, you're of the mind that I have somehow personally attacked you. I don't know you, so I have no reason to have "attacked" you. Neither will I decorate my posts with roses and honey and please and thank you's. Should I start telling you that linear game styles are what some players may want to play, and that you should be more objective in praising games that are more open-ended? Sure, if I have represented myself in a way that warrants it. But I have never stated that a strong main story arch shouldn't be present. I have only stated that the tools, the gameplay elements should also be there so that those who want to deviate from that arch can do so and in a meaningful, tangible way. In sum, I have no idea how you could remotely go off on this ridiculous tangent derived from two lines I wrote. Believe me, if I "went off" on you, I'd be banned from this board and the post would be deleted. I confronted what you wrote is all. I don't think it was out of the question to assume that the origianl poster was filing a grievance against BioWare's ability to produce this game. And the OP may have been brash in doing so, yet, again, if you look under the surface of his anger you can see real cause that what he states does have a high chance of coming to fruition. Anyone who asserts that they can make an educated guess at the final outcome of this game needs to re-evaluate their methods, or most importantly, their education. I'll take it that you mean the education from whence the educated guess is made about this title and not my actual degrees. As such, looking at WAR, AoC, LOTRO, SWG:NGE, COH/COV, TR, the more recently release AAA titles, I believe it is justified to have some concern acknowledging that the concerns could be eased with the release of future information. I'm sorry I made a clever post response and you felt it was your duty to one-up me while at the same time defend the OP, who made absolutely no merit or sense in his post. And I'm sorry that you take forum posts so personally from people that you don't know. If you feel you've been "one-upped", then that is yours to deal with as it was not my intention, nor was it my intention to "defend" the OP, per se. I'll also disagree in that there is some merit indeed in his post if you consider the MMO genre as a whole and its current direction. People kept saying WAR and AoC would be different, too. That is all. El Fin. Good day. Cheers. Godspeed. Blessed Be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
OK, I'll double back for you and take the SWG out of the equation. (since that's all you saw) Games sell well. Open worlds don't. Bioware wants to sell a lot. They won't be making an open world. Oh yes, regarding greed, remember what Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". Companies exist to make as much money as possible, no other purpose. They will develop games that they feel will accomplish this goal. (regardless whether they manage to actually do it)
Eve didn't make money?
Ugh I don't understand why you people play "mmos" when you just enjoy 1 player games with a chat box (that has a monthly subscription)... hey you were the same guy that said Aventurine can't redeem themselves from vaporware, and aren't ANYTHING like valve because valve was always a big company, completely forgetting that Half-life also had a vaporware period when valve was a baby company, look how that turned out.
OK, I'll double back for you and take the SWG out of the equation. (since that's all you saw) Games sell well. Open worlds don't. Bioware wants to sell a lot. They won't be making an open world. Oh yes, regarding greed, remember what Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". Companies exist to make as much money as possible, no other purpose. They will develop games that they feel will accomplish this goal. (regardless whether they manage to actually do it)
I believe that to be largely false, most people start companies to make a living (as opposed to lots and lots of money!) and part of that has to do with making a good product. Something Bioware has done many times in the past. Whether or not that means Old Republic is good remains to be seen.
Originally posted by Midnitte Originally posted by Kyleran
OK, I'll double back for you and take the SWG out of the equation. (since that's all you saw) Games sell well. Open worlds don't. Bioware wants to sell a lot. They won't be making an open world. Oh yes, regarding greed, remember what Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". Companies exist to make as much money as possible, no other purpose. They will develop games that they feel will accomplish this goal. (regardless whether they manage to actually do it)
I believe that to be largely false, most people start companies to make a living (as opposed to lots and lots of money!) and part of that has to do with making a good product. Something Bioware has done many times in the past. Whether or not that means Old Republic is good remains to be seen.
However you have to consider the fact that EA own Bioware and if the game costs $100 million to make - EA are providing the funds. As EA is a publicly listed company htye need to provide a return to their shareholders. Which means they want to make a reasonable return on their investment.
SO when they look around at what games are on the market , and how much revenue they bring in - if you were EA would you invest $100 million in a sandbox game( Eve , Galaxies, Darkfall etc), or a theme park game (WOW, War, AOC, LOTRO etc).
OK, I'll double back for you and take the SWG out of the equation. (since that's all you saw) Games sell well. Open worlds don't. Bioware wants to sell a lot. They won't be making an open world. Oh yes, regarding greed, remember what Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". Companies exist to make as much money as possible, no other purpose. They will develop games that they feel will accomplish this goal. (regardless whether they manage to actually do it)
I believe that to be largely false, most people start companies to make a living (as opposed to lots and lots of money!) and part of that has to do with making a good product. Something Bioware has done many times in the past. Whether or not that means Old Republic is good remains to be seen.
However you have to consider the fact that EA own Bioware and if the game costs $100 million to make - EA are providing the funds. As EA is a publicly listed company htye need to provide a return to their shareholders. Which means they want to make a reasonable return on their investment.
SO when they look around at what games are on the market , and how much revenue they bring in - if you were EA would you invest $100 million in a sandbox game( Eve , Galaxies, Darkfall etc), or a theme park game (WOW, War, AOC, LOTRO etc).
I hope a sandbox game because Eve makes quite a bit of money and darkfall isnt out yet (and SWG is no longer "sandbox" in my mind). Out of the games listed for a "theme park game", WoW is the only one making money. [Though I miss the random bear noises from LOTRO beta!]
Guess it just remains seen if SWOR will reward us, certainly a decent amount of people wishing for a truly open game.
People can attack sandbox all they want, but only games with lots of variety, depth, endgame etc. is worth my time. The Internet, our powerful PCs, the technology of today BEG for a game that is truly EPIC and LARGE with CHOICES. People talk about simulation as if it was a bad thing, I don't. Make a good game - with awesome gameplay, classes with SKILLs rather than levels - or even classless - make depth, endgame, player housing, a real player economy, make player vendors meaningful and not just an AH - give us a REAL deep crafting system and a hunt and fight for ressources - drop those damn instances that removes the players from the game world - engage us in a large open world -- and don't even THINK on making a Star Wars game where space is a frigging expansion - give us all that, and then ......... and then ................ then... I WILL MAKE MY OWN FRIGGIN STORY _ THANK YOU EVER SO MUCH !!
Draccan
i agree with you! But i do think we need more information about this game. We've already waited this long might as well give it a shot.
To the two guys debating skill and whatnot, that is rediculous. There is no "skill" required in any MMORPG. You see a number, you make it bigger by grinding, then you go PVP against other people who did the same and whoevers number is bigger wins. Hence, the winner is who has invested the most time in the game. I say this as a long time MMORPG player who is an avid PVPER in almost any Ive played. To say it requires skill is laughable.
Comments
There's about a dozen misconceptions there.
Skill is power is gear is stats is levels. It's all just a way of having progression.
People invest time in what they find fun. To make something time consuming but not fun is to fail. Not everyone finds the same thing fun.
Sandbox MMO = Themepark MMO. All MMOs are both only the mechanics vary.
A FPS has no progression, a MMOs does that's one of the differences. Player skill is always a determinant in any game. What player skills you use is game dependant though.
Subscription MMOs are for keeping players subscribed time has no real meaning. If you play one hour a month you pay the same subscription as someone who plays 720.
Thinking skill is "just a way of having progression" and then saying a FPS has not progression is just wrong. (if skill = progession, and FPS has skill, then FPS has progression; I don't agree with your terms but am pointing out the inherent contradiction I see)
Saying a sandbox MMO = thempark MMO is also wrong.
You may wish to blur the lines since by definition an MMO must have levels, but then you're simply missing the point. There's a reason the two terms have been created. To give a name to an MMO that has a level-grind and then instance-grinds (or other gear-grinds).. which is theme park; and a name to an MMO that has a level-grind and then no (or few) gear grinds.
The latter (sandbox MMO) wishes endgame pvp content to be similiar to an FPS game, in that most people have the same general power as one another and matches are determined mostly by skill.
I say, why do that when you could have your skill-based FPS game right now, rather than going through a level-grind? Because personally I would rather get my skill-based, instant satisfaction from a game designed specifically for that. Likewise I would rather get my grind(time)-based, invest-satisfaction from a game designed for that.
Sandbox MMO is like lukewarm water. Some warm, some cold.
I'd rather play my FPS games when I want that skill, and a Themepark (correctly understood as such) MMO when I want time-investing.
but thats me
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
-hobbles from the back of the room with my robe and wizard hat on-
-ahem-
I remember 8 years ago when i started playing EQ 1 and I had to sit in Overthere for hours a day and only to get a level every week or so, and that was in the 40s to 50s, I remember when you where going after an epic it would take you almost a year to get that one weapon that was supposed to compliment your class to the letter only for it to be so disappointing, it was like masterbating with sandpaper. Now epics are an entire suit that everyone in the game has because they are easy to get.
I have always looked forward to a game that has a story driven level based theme, think about, it may take you a year of real time to get there, you achieve your destiny as it where then you are maxed and can do whatever you want. But of course just like life you can falter from your path and do what ever you want making it take longer to get there.
Anyway thats my thoughts.
I see, so your point is guilty till proven innocent. All games are crap untill they prove to you otherwise, and of course just because say a game like WoW has 12 million subscribers its still crap because its not a open world sanboxy skill based game that you want?
So tell me what exactly is the first sign of trouble you see in SWTOR. That its not a sand box, which is something biowares devs have been stating for a long time? That its not skill based, hell skills are just micro levels (ie advancements on a smaller scale)
I don't believe one should have blind faith, but on the other hand I really don't think theres been enough information released on a MMo that still has 3-4 years left in developement to leap to the accusations you have
Never said anything about wanting it to be a sandbox, my problem is that almost every game that's come out in the last few years has been crap and there were early signs there were issues but their fanbois always shouted down any opposition. My rant is against that mindset, I could care less about KOTOR.
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." -Edmund Burke
Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?"
(Psalm 94:16)
If you read what I wrote you would understand that it is not about whether or not they re-make SWG but whether or not they charge 20$ for a lazy production which is not a real open world. Why pay many $ for essentially single/multiplayer online games that are not massive? Or even roleplaying..?
By the way - console is no argument. The consoles of today are advanced enough that you could create open worlds like I describe on them ...
Bioware with SW:TOR went the lazy / greedy way..
OK, I'll double back for you and take the SWG out of the equation. (since that's all you saw)
Games sell well. Open worlds don't. Bioware wants to sell a lot. They won't be making an open world.
Oh yes, regarding greed, remember what Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good". Companies exist to make as much money as possible, no other purpose. They will develop games that they feel will accomplish this goal. (regardless whether they manage to actually do it)
Open worlds don't? I'm sorry but I have to agree with the OP even though he seems a bit preachy, I mean why do you think WAR is falling apart as we speak. Players expected the entire Warhammer universe to be interpreted in the game. And all they got was another game that aimed at grind for pointless gear in a box(battlegrounds/scenarios). Either then the technical issues and class balancing that that game is dealing with. If WAR could have held it's promise to be an ORVR game it wouldn't be in the state it is now.....
Who really cares what other people think about TOR? I don't. lol no need to go all Darkfall fan over it xD
I feel bad for the OP. He seems hellbent on destroying "themepark" MMOs. There's this great open world simulation called "real life" and I think it'll give you much more enjoyment. I think MMOs are far away from the things you want because, frankly, for every person who wants a sandbox there are a thousand more silent voices that are just fine with this "easymode dumby omgwtfbbq so simple lawl themepark" thing that WoW and its familiars are doing. Hint, they don't come to this site very often
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
This post is about as practical as openining a book, reading three paragraphs, and then giving a summary about it. I tried this in high school many times, and like the OP, I failed with outrageous misery as my companion.
I loved the quote about how he wants to make his own story, insulting BioWare's ability to provide interesting gameplay. Because as we all know in Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Mass Effect, no one ever had the opportunity to create their own story.
Insert YouTube clip of debate moderator in Billy Madison after Adam Sandler's reply. Nibb High Football rules, Draccan.
"Woah....Wait......Dude, am I driving right now?"
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
Both of those examples would give a player interested in such just as much a fulfilling gameplay experience as the guy trudging along the main story arch and saving the galaxy. Personally I think both options are key to a great MMO. It does require a level of depth and variety in various other gameplay features that, at this point in time, I don't believe Bioware is going to devote much attention to, if any.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
In regards to the story. I have truly, never understood this apparent train of thought that if there IS a story present, you can't have your own. That is, quite frankly, hilarious. What keeps you from coming up with your own stories, even if you have a story provided in the game? It didn't keep me from coming up with many stories when I played DAoC (yes, I RPed there, *gasp*) or WoW, or EVE, or other games.
The rest of this paragraph is based on plain adbsence of knowledge. No one knows the crafting system in the game yet. No one knows what kind of options you will have. All you know so far, is that it will be story-driven. Period. Yet the OP takes that and deduces from it that it will be (his personal) nightmare without really knowing anything about the game.
Both of those examples would give a player interested in such just as much a fulfilling gameplay experience as the guy trudging along the main story arch and saving the galaxy. Personally I think both options are key to a great MMO. It does require a level of depth and variety in various other gameplay features that, at this point in time, I don't believe Bioware is going to devote much attention to, if any.
And that is exactly why people dislike posts like those from the OP. No one has a clue yet what kind of systems BioWare will implement. No one knows any details and still, people make up their minds as though they have already tested a finished product. This, above all else, is what is annoying as hell. We all know -NOTHING- of how this game is going to play and educated guesses is the best we can do. Saying that the game will be totally instanced, linear to the max, and without any deep crafting or other social aspects at this point of time is NOT an educated guess, it is plain trolling.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
And what keeps BioWare from taking the StoryAspect of their game and ADD it to other MMO components? You know, like they actually said they would. They said they want to -FOCUS- on the story as a fourth pillar, but not ignore all the rest. I highly doubt you'll be able to be a farmer, that is a topic for another thread (and there are oh so many about it), but that does not mean there won't be CHOICES for you. In fact, BiOWare have said repeatedly that CHOICE is actually a very big issue in this game.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
In any case. I have no problem with the Sandbox-Fans, as long as they don't do what the OP did. He takes what little information there is on a game and twists it into some kind of horror-scenario and denounces the game without any solid info/proof. That is, in my eyes, what ticks off most people.
If he doesn't like the game, fine and well. if he doesn't like the sort of game BioWare makes...well then why did he even bother to check it out? And why bother ranting on the forum that "the hot air is out of the baloon". See, the topic sort of suggests that BioWare promised something and failed to deliver...yet they haven't promised anything they could have failed to deliver.
It's not his choice of game or his choice of world people are angry about, it's his way of trying to put down a game about which he knows zip and obviously also has no interest in.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Can't believe this thread is 4 pages now, who cares what this guy thinks?
I do because of all the hilarious assumptions and "predictions" that are tossed across the forum. I'm just entertained how people can be so blindfolded
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The op just seems to have the belief that his style of mmo (open sandbox world simulation) is superior to a story driven mmo. There is a reason story driven games are more popular than simulation type games.. Arcade racers do much better then more technical driving simulators, madden/fifa do better then coach/managing simulations, command and conquer do better then war simulators, etc, etc.. it's not that I'm saying one style is better then the other, but more casual friendly, story driven games will always sell better then their "simulator" counterpart. Bioware can easily make an incredible story driven mmo if they do it correctly, and just because it's not a skill based open world sandbox, does NOT mean it will be WoW with lightsabers.
To make such a snap judgment on a game with so little information is incredibly naive. Just because Bioware is not following your preferred "style" of game does not mean it will be a failure. It's astonishing, the near fanaticism that some sandbox game fans spout. I enjoy a good complicated simulation type game from time to time, but to think that one style of game is so superior to another due to your opinion is a bit close minded.
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
In regards to the story. I have truly, never understood this apparent train of thought that if there IS a story present, you can't have your own. That is, quite frankly, hilarious. What keeps you from coming up with your own stories, even if you have a story provided in the game? It didn't keep me from coming up with many stories when I played DAoC (yes, I RPed there, *gasp*) or WoW, or EVE, or other games.
The rest of this paragraph is based on plain adbsence of knowledge. No one knows the crafting system in the game yet. No one knows what kind of options you will have. All you know so far, is that it will be story-driven. Period. Yet the OP takes that and deduces from it that it will be (his personal) nightmare without really knowing anything about the game.
I don't understand that train of thought either. Good thing I didn't state that, right? I just hope Bioware understands that as well and in tandem with the "Story" elements they are pushing in PR they don't forget that many others would like the option of playing out a story they have in mind for their character and implement in depth the necessary tools that allow players to tell those tales. You RP'd in DAOC? Wow! I did too, on Percival. It was great!
As far as the absence of knowledge, sure, I can agree about that. In that same vein that absence doesn't prove that Bioware will implement an in depth crafting system or any other option in a healthy dose so that players can be creative and actually have meaningful "props" to use on their "stage" to tell their individual tales. We indeed just have to wait and see. Recent past experiences from MMO releases prove that this isn't included in the forumla for making MMOs. And as it has been mentioned time and again the devlopers from the different companies do talk alot amongst each other.
Both of those examples would give a player interested in such just as much a fulfilling gameplay experience as the guy trudging along the main story arch and saving the galaxy. Personally I think both options are key to a great MMO. It does require a level of depth and variety in various other gameplay features that, at this point in time, I don't believe Bioware is going to devote much attention to, if any.
And that is exactly why people dislike posts like those from the OP. No one has a clue yet what kind of systems BioWare will implement. No one knows any details and still, people make up their minds as though they have already tested a finished product. This, above all else, is what is annoying as hell. We all know -NOTHING- of how this game is going to play and educated guesses is the best we can do. Saying that the game will be totally instanced, linear to the max, and without any deep crafting or other social aspects at this point of time is NOT an educated guess, it is plain trolling.
Nothing I don't already know here and haven't said to a certain degree in my first post on this thread. Some people don't have a penchant for expressing themselves in an objective manner. Given the response on this thread I'd step out on a limb and say the OP is guilty of that this go around.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
And what keeps BioWare from taking the StoryAspect of their game and ADD it to other MMO components? You know, like they actually said they would. They said they want to -FOCUS- on the story as a fourth pillar, but not ignore all the rest. I highly doubt you'll be able to be a farmer, that is a topic for another thread (and there are oh so many about it), but that does not mean there won't be CHOICES for you. In fact, BiOWare have said repeatedly that CHOICE is actually a very big issue in this game.
The only thing that possibly could: Bioware. It's not only a measure of them incorporating other proven aspects into the game along with their Story focus. It also, and extremely key, is a matter of them doing it in a very healthy, abundant manner. Funcom rang the halls of the forums of MMO gamers with their focus on "Combat, combat, combat" while half-heartedly putting any focus (though they said at the time, because they had to, that they had a good crafting system in place as well) on any other aspects of MMO gameplay. Giving due to their other issues, look where it got them. Mythic' WAR has very little else to do but grind Scenarios. Open RVR if virtually non-existent (when looking at all servers combined) and their is no crafting or other gameplay mechanics that would bring players together, either to war or to create, and that game is slowly fading.
The worrying part, at least for me, is that, while yes we have only gotten limited information, it would have been just a little bit inspiring if they had made significant mention of some of the gameplay mechanics in a way that let even the most dense of folks know that some heavy thought was going into them. I know there is a high probability they will be there. But the degree to which they will is my concern. And I'm not advocating they cut corners on the Story focus point.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
In any case. I have no problem with the Sandbox-Fans, as long as they don't do what the OP did. He takes what little information there is on a game and twists it into some kind of horror-scenario and denounces the game without any solid info/proof. That is, in my eyes, what ticks off most people.
If he doesn't like the game, fine and well. if he doesn't like the sort of game BioWare makes...well then why did he even bother to check it out? And why bother ranting on the forum that "the hot air is out of the baloon". See, the topic sort of suggests that BioWare promised something and failed to deliver...yet they haven't promised anything they could have failed to deliver.
It's not his choice of game or his choice of world people are angry about, it's his way of trying to put down a game about which he knows zip and obviously also has no interest in.
I can agree that the manner in which the OP posted isn't the most....agreeable manner in which to state an opinion. That said, and looking past how he said it (stating it as a fact) and taking it in as being stated as a concerned opinion, the OP has some merit. I can't name one AAA development house that is taking a big time IP and mould together and well thought out story, combat system, crafting system, emotes, housing and mount system. By well thought out, imagine if you will all of the above systems had the breadth and diversity of (oh my god he's going to invoke that game name) SWG(pre-nge) crafting system. Believe me, I HATE the phrase, but these kiddos around here talk about "WoW-killer". A game like that would make a serious run at those subscription numbers.
I just don't think Bioware is going to give that much attention to all those systems. the Story element they will. But the others, I highly doubt. I would absolutly love to be wrong, mind you. But from what I've read from interviews so far, especially the "iconic" word being thrown around (that word was one of the catch words for the NGE, which leaves no doubt in my mind now of the role Lucas Arts played in it), I can certainly begin to form an educated opinion/guess/hypothesis of what this game is heading toward at the moment.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
In regard to Kalathwyr's epic novella in response to two sentences I wrote:
I don't think anyone insulted Bioware's ability to tell a story. I think you just have no concept of what the OP was saying. There's nothing wrong with having a main story arch for people like yourself to follow along the rail, stopping at pre planned locations and doing what has been mapped out for you. That's all fine and good. Many other folks, the more creative folks (not meant as an insult to your creative prowess) would like the ability to make up their own story. Instead of following the vanilla main story arch they'd like to instead, for example, build a criminal empire manufacturing and selling illicit goods to other players. They may want to become well known for crafting the finest medical supplies on the server, providing a needed service for their fellow players.
If by making the bold assertion that the original poster is poorly summarizing a game that hasn't come out yet is wrong, then I stand corrected. Despite your sarcastically candid remarks about my liking "pre planned (sic)" stories, they are in fact insulting. Mostly because I never once asserted I like said stories. You must have completely missed the concept, and the references for that matter, of my post. What story that one may or may not want is irrelevant to the context of my post. I just don't care.
And I've played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights (Getting Storm of Zehir expansion tomorrow as a matter of fact). Both had great stories. Again, noone is doubting Bioware's ability to spin a yarn. Neither, however, allowed you to just say "Hey, I think I want to just become a farmer and grow reagents and sell them to adventuring wizards or go mine ore and sell it to the local blacksmiths to make weapons that the local lords need to outfit their armies.
Again, I don't expect you to find any of that fun, but step out of yourself for a moment and try to understand that many others do find it fun and that including such options in a game won't keep folks like yourself from being the iconic hero Lucas wants you to be.
I have never, or will never, subjectively criticize ones style or taste of game. The point of the post is that one can't objectively make an educated guess regarding BioWare's product that hasn't even been launched. What you've essentially done here is not only assume that I like linear games, but also that I'm so narrowly subjective that I can't comprehend that other people may like to play games that I don't. This is simply stupid, for lack of a better word because I'm tired. Your argument, despite a faux populistic approach to objectivity (I now dub you Ayn Rand), is that I should take a more macro view when criticising gamers' tastes. What I find hypocritical and ironic is that in the same breath you assert that simply because a game entails a linear play environment, one can't have a personal story (Have you played Planescape:Torment?). In your praise for sandbox games you've completely contridicted your statements. One could argue that every story is linear in the most basic of principles. Should I include an insult about how you should be the space pioneer that CCP wants you to be? Should I start telling you that linear game styles are what some players may want to play, and that you should be more objective in praising games that are more open-ended?
In sum, I have no idea how you could remotely go off on this ridiculous tangent derived from two lines I wrote. I don't think it was out of the question to assume that the origianl poster was filing a grievance against BioWare's ability to produce this game. Anyone who asserts that they can make an educated guess at the final outcome of this game needs to re-evaluate their methods, or most importantly, their education. I'm sorry I made a clever post response and you felt it was your duty to one-up me while at the same time defend the OP, who made absolutely no merit or sense in his post.
That is all.
Good day.
Godspeed.
"Woah....Wait......Dude, am I driving right now?"
I would think that spending $100 million making a game is reasonable justification for asking for a return on your investment - like $20 a month.
I also doubt that their design is saving them money. Sure they could create a wide open sandbox with no story line and say - hey pay us $20 a month and create your own story. That would bring the OP and a handful of other people - again not a good return on a $100 million investment.
And I do disagree - I think they are catering to the crowd that want to play a hero (the usual single player game territory) than the I want to recreate my day job crowd. By focusing on the story hopefully we will see a difference from the usual nobody is a hero type MMO. ie put the Role play back into the genre, whilst allowing people to play a non heroic but useful role if they wish.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I probably shouldn't even dignify that idyllic invective with a response, but I will.
Defensive much?
"Woah....Wait......Dude, am I driving right now?"
Not really, just responding to your replys. One might as the same of you, though.
That said, no point in continuing with you, Crazy, so feel free to get in the last word. I'd be genuinely surprised if you didn't want it.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Eve didn't make money?
Ugh I don't understand why you people play "mmos" when you just enjoy 1 player games with a chat box (that has a monthly subscription)... hey you were the same guy that said Aventurine can't redeem themselves from vaporware, and aren't ANYTHING like valve because valve was always a big company, completely forgetting that Half-life also had a vaporware period when valve was a baby company, look how that turned out.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
I believe that to be largely false, most people start companies to make a living (as opposed to lots and lots of money!) and part of that has to do with making a good product. Something Bioware has done many times in the past. Whether or not that means Old Republic is good remains to be seen.
Just chill, we don't know a damn thing yet about this game yet. Relax, take a volume, take the whole bottle.
When we get with in 6 months or so and we know a lot more, then you can cry like a baby all you want.
In the mean time, don't get your panties in a bunch.
I believe that to be largely false, most people start companies to make a living (as opposed to lots and lots of money!) and part of that has to do with making a good product. Something Bioware has done many times in the past. Whether or not that means Old Republic is good remains to be seen.
However you have to consider the fact that EA own Bioware and if the game costs $100 million to make - EA are providing the funds. As EA is a publicly listed company htye need to provide a return to their shareholders. Which means they want to make a reasonable return on their investment.
SO when they look around at what games are on the market , and how much revenue they bring in - if you were EA would you invest $100 million in a sandbox game( Eve , Galaxies, Darkfall etc), or a theme park game (WOW, War, AOC, LOTRO etc).
Guess it just remains seen if SWOR will reward us, certainly a decent amount of people wishing for a truly open game.
i agree with you! But i do think we need more information about this game. We've already waited this long might as well give it a shot.
To the two guys debating skill and whatnot, that is rediculous. There is no "skill" required in any MMORPG. You see a number, you make it bigger by grinding, then you go PVP against other people who did the same and whoevers number is bigger wins. Hence, the winner is who has invested the most time in the game. I say this as a long time MMORPG player who is an avid PVPER in almost any Ive played. To say it requires skill is laughable.