i never expect much from a MMORPG release, so when the release sucks i'm not as disapointed as all the fanbois reading and believing every single word said by the developers who "dont lie because the company has other reputable games on the market" (lol AOC and WAR). If you expect too much, then you will be disapointed and you will be makeing threads like this on the forum. If you dont expect much you dont get your hopes crushed, because there are no hopes to be crushed.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Bladin really gets pissy when it comes to sandbox games, and it is that fact that doesn't allow him to understand why people try to explain how certain aspects of sandbox games make for a more challenging experience. Being held accountable for your actions makes the game harder. It is as simple as that. But that is just one of the many reasons why EVE and games like it are harder than the WoWs and the WARs of the genre. EVE has a huge learning curve, and it puts the themepark easymode games to shame. Hell even the economy of EVE is more challenging than all of WoW imo. The different ways to fit your ship, combinations of ships, but most importantly flying your ship accordingly and your team work skills actually present a challenge vs the target/lock and spam 1 key pvp of WoW (and the pve, especially today, itsnt much more difficult).
I think some very interesting parallels can be drawn between this topic and human development.
As children, we are coddled by our parents and able to make many mistakes without consequence, but we also have no freedoms.
As teenagers, we are provided more freedoms and start to feel the first sting of real consequences, but ultimately parents are still responsible for our well being. A failure of the teenager is often seen as a failure of the parent. Teenagers are famous world wide for thinking their lives during this phase are more important and difficult than everyone else.
It is not until adulthood that our own mistakes and the consequences are fully felt, are fully ours alone, but also when we obtain the glory of total freedom.
I think these three phases of life are analogous to the different kinds of mmos out there. Some are nothing more than a ride on rails, pre determined experiences with no way to make mistakes. This is like the child. Some give you more freedom but only weak repercussions for mistakes. This is like the teenager. And some give you total control but total accountability for actions. This is like the adult.
I won't list what games I think fit in which categories And I am not insinuating one typeof game is better than any other. There are plenty of adults that wish they could be teenagers or kids again. As there are children that wish they could be adults. So it follows, there are all types of people that are looking for different things out of life. So it would make sense that the more types of games out there, the greater chance everyone can find something they like.
The only enemy in all this are the people trying to make the genre have less to choose from, because something doesn't fit the world they want to play in.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them. If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that
But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.
Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.
I agree that more MMO's need to focus on specific niche markets. No MMO out there can cater to all playstyles not even WoW and it would be foolish to try to. Once a company tries to cater to all playstyles the end result becomes watered down. The reason being the majority of the costumers will dictate what is the most accepted way to play the game and any good developer will atleast cater to that.
Look at EVE, it is a prime example of niche market and it is a success because of it. EVE does not look remotely like any other MMO on the market and they cater to their customers needs. They can atleast stand out from the herd of clones and provide content that no other MMO currently provides. I do not play EVE myself because it does not suit me, but I applaud them for being different and more focused.
Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.
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Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.
What is the niche vs. mass appeal argument exactly? That one produces a more fun game? Or a greater financial success? What constitutes a win in this fictional war between mmos?
To answer the former, you insinuate that one very specific type of gamer is the only one that matters, since everyone has their own tastes, and not everyone likes WoW. I don't think anyone argues with the financial success of WoW. But many feel that catering to too many playstyles at once results in a watered down experience for many. WoW has certainly been described as such. Wow is good at certain things. Niche games are good at other things. Which game is better depends entirely on which things you feel are important, and which arent.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.
It's all relative. If a studio can put together a small team and acquire a great little niche, they can do well for themselves. Look at CCP which is on TV now advertising EVE, making other games, and buying other studios.
What's a success?
Blizzard has to share the dibs with all their stockholders and their owners. A small studio that can kickout a moderately successful MMO can kick back on those royalties and expand aggressively similar to CCP
Becoming clearer now? Whats easier to make- a WoW clone that the WoW fans will ignore anyway or something thats aimed at a niche?
Going after WoW is just too risky. See, if you liked WoW the smart thing to do woulda been to support WAR/AoC. But since you guys pissed on it guess what titles are getting funded now?
Earthrise, Champions Online, APB, WELL Online, Jumpgate Evolution, etc.
Its your own fault. Guess where my money be going? EVE Online. So that will help show publishers many of us want something fresh
i never expect much from a MMORPG release, so when the release sucks i'm not as disapointed as all the fanbois reading and believing every single word said by the developers who "dont lie because the company has other reputable games on the market" (lol AOC and WAR). If you expect too much, then you will be disapointed and you will be makeing threads like this on the forum. If you dont expect much you dont get your hopes crushed, because there are no hopes to be crushed.
To a certain extent the fans are part of the problem. They hype games up to such a high level theirs no way the game can live up to their expectations. While its great to get cuaght up in the flush of a new MMO that might be the one we've dreamed of its best to always keep ones feet firmly on the ground and not loose touch with reality and whats logically possible.
In all fairness, WAR had a very smooth launch - a few problems with log-in queues but not a whole lot else wrong with the game. I didn't experience any of the nightmares of Star Wars Galaxies, where first I was told by the customer service rep I needed a major system upgrade to play (my computer specs were well above the minimum advertised). Then my character disappears from the server and I'm told, "sorry."
Mythic has also done an incredible job in fixing known problems and giving players what they want, usually within days. I logged on for the Heavy Metal event and most of the top servers were hopping. Sure, the game experienced some drop-off since launch - but that's because WOTLK came out. I fully expect WAR to be like LOTRO - a little bit of a slow start, but the population will continue to grow until it hits a million + players again.
This topic is in regards to the fanbois on this forum. We aren't new to online gaming, mmorpgs aren't new and unique. We don't have to deal with your crappy release anymore. Yet the excuse that people still use "It's release, give it time to polish. The other games weren't polished at release either" Simply doesn't fly, and it's been proven OVER AND OVER. Yet the fans still use it. If you release a mmo, you have to be ready to go. You have to be able to stand against the current mmo titans. If you release space game you have to compete vs EVE, if you release a leveling quester, you have to compete with WoW. If you release a PvP centric game, you have to compete with the pvp aspect of current mmos. Not to just be something different, but vastly inferior(AoC and WAR). And then hope to be able to compete with the main games in a few years. Because in a few years, those games you might be FINALLY catching up to, have already moved ahead into bigger and better territory. Why would anyone settle for a poorly released game, when they have the option to play ones which have already established themselves? They wouldn't. And us as gamers need to realize this, and stop letting developers believe this. Halfway through development, a developer should have a clear idea of how much they will truely be able to get done by release. The problem is they still TRY to get too much in. And nothing is truely remarkable and nothing really makes it stand out.
Give it a few months? Maybe for some bugs Give it a few years? Maybe to get extra content to last me after i experience the content in game for those years
Sorry, but there is no excuse for mmos to not come out on day 1 swinging. If it's a buggy unbalanced, contentless, empty mess, then there is no excuse, the game simply isn't very good. And it will die. AoC and WAR both suffered the same fate, high box sales, TERRIBLE retention. Tabula Rasa is going down in flames, HGL is going down. AA died, AC2 died. Vanguard, and MxO both would have died without SOE's life support. Then theres the few which are still clinging onto hope but never really amounted to anything, PotBS, ryzom, shadowbane, swg, ww2o.
So I take it your honeymoon with WAR is over? Not to long ago you were talking it up like it was the cure for cancer or something like that. You want to point the "fanboy" finger at others you should be careful as I and I'm sure a lot of others remember not to long ago when you were the biggest WAR fanboy on this site. Not trying to insult you just stating my opinion on the subject. Nothing you say or do is going to stop rampant fanboyism as it's been around longer than games have. You better just get used to it as it's not going anywhere.
Hm, Bren's right don't give out advice if you're not going to follow it yourself. I forgot; you were a huge WAR fan.
The problem with WAR, is not the game, it's nothing that could have been predicted.
Empty servers.
Barren Areas.
Quiet community.
Beta was more populated, than release. That's what killed the game for me.
I'll say it again, the reason i quit war, and why the community is generally leaving WAR, is because the game was designed for more people in each area, than what the servers upon release can support. And to add insult to injury, there were too many servers.
It's a server/launch problem, admittedly a major major one. But the actual game was fun enough(i played in beta btw, and it's why i was so surprised it was like it was at release)
Well you need to realize there is a real world outside of the gaming world.A lot of developers probably every single one of them will not meet there deadlines for there entire pre planned content.I would garner a bet that 100% of the games out there have removed some content in there initial releases.Another fact is that 100% of the games out there will have patches made up within the first two weeks,so they are also admitting there games need improvements. Yes, this is true. You have to also realize that these developers have time lines and budgets to follow,you think they are just going to eat millions of dollars?Nope they will find some way to hasten there launch.Heck look no further than EQ2 and WOW releases,they were both battling each other to see who could release first,both moved up there launch dates dramatically.You think they all of a sudden they were ready?NO WAY they released there games because of marketing and the Christmas time line and competition with each other . Agreed Like i already said,you can bet your ass that 100% of the games out are released unfinished or have removed content.This is why that one Blizzard rep stated they choose to tell there clients NOTHING,that avoids breaking promises,lies and people can't flame them for not releasing content they never knew existed.Then of course Blizzard as well as all the other developers will sneak there removed content into updates or even low ball us consumers by selling it to us in expansions. If they remove the content because it wasn't done, then I don't see how you can call it lowballing and sneaking it in. Blizz always wanted hero classes, and siege weapons, and they've been working on them since release, does that mean since they added one and them in wotlk that it's somehow less of a addition?
But was wow hurting for lack of these @ release? not really. Honestly,i think Square Enix bulls all the developers over.I have seen VERY FEW patches ever released to fix there game,only a patch to make it Vista useable[expected] and of course update patches for holiday events.There game FFXI was completely ready and update free on launch,of course that is the USA launch ,i guess it is a fair assumption that they probably already fixed issues in there JPN release one year earlier.However just watch every single game that comes out and you wil lsee the patches rolling in almost instantly,at least give the developers credit for doing it ,rather than sit idle on there product.
Heres the thing. Theres a big difference between having a few bugs, and being broken/empty.
Let's look at wow.
Servers were overcrowded, not a issue with the game
The server system wasn't setup for that many people, a issue with the servers.
A few bugged quests, to be expected
A few bugged abilities, again to be expected.
Then let's look at AoC
Servers crashed a lot, but since they instanced zones each instance crashed seperately hence leaving a illusion of solidarity. It's a release problem.
Completely worthless classes, and almost every feat in the "talent trees" broken. Not acceptable.
BArren levels which required grinding to get through.
COMPLETELY UNTESTED/BALANCED CRAFTING SYSTEM.
Utterly trashy and shitty itemization system.
Bugged instances
Terrible respawn times on quest mobs.
No PvP systems in place(acceptable with wow, since it had a decent pve system). But AoCs PvE was terrible and broken also.
Terrible world design.
Huge Memory leaks.
Can you honestly say that AoC was okay to release like that? Just because of patches.
It's understandable to release with some bugs, perhaps server issues. But the game itself should be whole and playable, with the majority in and working.(as wow was, again judging by the current mmorpg population, nobody expected wow to be as big of a hit as it was).
I'll say it again.
Us as gamers don't have to accept crappy releases, and poor games. If developers can't cut the game on their budget. It's not our fault, and they deserve to fail.
We don't NEED to put up with it. And look at WAR and AoCs floundering, Vanguards failure, etc etc. It's all proof of this.
Well first of all you can not compare a VERY low tech game like WOW that copied Everquest to the tee.Therefore they had the game template no thinking there,then they used low tech,they would be total noobs to mess that up,so they had no excuses if they did botch it up.
AOC tried a slightly different approach and designed there own game template ,they did not outright copy another game.They have a much higher tech,that means tweaking to get it runnable for many.
I think the fact that so many players ripped through 50-60 levels so fast shows the game was ready,there is no doubt about it.First of all if it was not, then why the heck did so many power level so fast?would they not just leave the game if it was in such bad shape?
Other factors are that WOW had only ONE game to compete with at there release unlike nowadays there are players that have a lot more gaming knowledge and far too many games to choose from.Also when mentioning about the WOW ordeal,you seem to forget that you already paid them once so adding it in later and charging you again is not good.It would not have hurt them back in the day because fans were not crying for more content in games and different types of games,they were all happy with the EQ clones.
It is a MUCH different world out there amongst MMORPG gamers than when WOW launched,it is like night and day.If WOW released today,everyone would be saying "WTF another Everquest clone"we need that like we need a hole in the head.They were lucky to get away with that back in the day.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Hm, Bren's right don't give out advice if you're not going to follow it yourself. I forgot; you were a huge WAR fan.
The problem with WAR, is not the game, it's nothing that could have been predicted.
Empty servers.
Barren Areas.
Quiet community.
Beta was more populated, than release. That's what killed the game for me.
I'll say it again, the reason i quit war, and why the community is generally leaving WAR, is because the game was designed for more people in each area, than what the servers upon release can support. And to add insult to injury, there were too many servers.
It's a server/launch problem, admittedly a major major one. But the actual game was fun enough(i played in beta btw, and it's why i was so surprised it was like it was at release)
Okay fair enough. I think I'm clear now on that part of the topic. I thought you were saying fanboi's shouldnt even try WAR to begin with. It appears I was not clear on that point at all
Well first of all you can not compare a VERY low tech game like WOW that copied Everquest to the tee.Therefore they had the game template no thinking there,then they used low tech,they would be total noobs to mess that up,so they had no excuses if they did botch it up. AOC tried a slightly different approach and designed there own game template ,they did not outright copy another game.They have a much higher tech,that means tweaking to get it runnable for many. I love how you can say aoc didn't copy any game, and wow copied eq, when aoc is far more like wow then wow is like eq. I can play l4d with 300 zombies running at me attacking, while mowing em down with a shotgun, and have better performance, standing in a field in aoc after the leak started to kill me. I think the fact that so many players ripped through 50-60 levels so fast shows the game was ready,there is no doubt about it.First of all if it was not, then why the heck did so many power level so fast?would they not just leave the game if it was in such bad shape? Fast? Leveling in AoC is pretty dang easy. The thing is, theres 80 levels. why does the content run out at 50? Did they expect people to take till NOW to get to 50? How naive they must have been. And how must you be to consider that "complete" Other factors are that WOW had only ONE game to compete with at there release unlike nowadays there are players that have a lot more gaming knowledge and far too many games to choose from.Also when mentioning about the WOW ordeal,you seem to forget that you already paid them once so adding it in later and charging you again is not good.It would not have hurt them back in the day because fans were not crying for more content in games and different types of games,they were all happy with the EQ clones. You just proved my point. There is a ton more competition now. You can't release substandard. It is a MUCH different world out there amongst MMORPG gamers than when WOW launched,it is like night and day.If WOW released today,everyone would be saying "WTF another Everquest clone"we need that like we need a hole in the head.They were lucky to get away with that back in the day. If people today would hate on wow for being a everquest clone, why did their expansion sell more copies in one day, then aoc and war sold copies alone. It's obvious players like this type of game. Just because the crowd here at mmorpg, have developed a elitist feeling toward mmorpgs doesn't mean that that's the general feeling between all gamers.
In this climate of mmo's I think reality will be the continued cycle of unfinished games.
Why?
The fact is that a development team generally speaking is not holding the purse strings.
This means that the developers have to continually politic and shmooz the accountants to get more money to finish their game before release.
This is a very very difficult sale. Let's say, taking an arbitrary number, that you know it will take 30 million dollars to fully polish your game.
Would it be easier to convince the money holders 30 million now, all now.
Or 15 million now, release game, game does well, invest more + the added bonus of sub $.
If you were investing in a game, would you be more willing to lose 30 million or 15 million? That's the question. The profit margin is potentially the same.
A fully polished game on release is a huge huge huge amount of money to gamble. No one knows what subscription numbers will be on release no matter how polished the game is. IMO, WAR is every bit as polished as WoW was on release, and judging by the hype and fanboism, it would have been very difficult for an investor to NOT see $$$$$ around the corner. Although WAR is doing well, it certainly isn't anywhere near the numbers hype would have had us believe it would be. How does that make an investor feel the next time they are asked for all the money up front? A little itchy to say the least.
And it isn't just money it is also TIME. How much time has been invested in developing these 'unfinished' games? Vanguard was like 5 years. WAR like 3 years. AoC, what 3 to 5 years? dunno. Each of these games should have had more time to finish. Some say another 6 months or year, in VG's case it probably could have taken 2 or 3 years more, as it is still got huge big holes in it.
So you also have to convince them to give you more money and that it could be 6, 7 years, maybe even a decade before they see any return on that initial investment. Tell me, what do you think the gaming business atmosphere will be like in 2018. If you think you can predict business trends in 'luxury' sales that far into the future you'd be crazy. And the investor would think you would be too.
Therefore:
Developers have a different tact. It is much easier to get enough money to get the game started, release it and then you have not only revenue coming in, but you can use those sub numbers (if they are good - and face it; the devs all think their game will do well) to get more financing.
This is a golden solution for the people gambling their money on an unknown. They can invest a little money with the possibility of high returns while lowering the risk of losing the entire sum.
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Now that being said; what investors have to become convinced of is that their risk of the game failing exponentially rises in relation to how polished the game is at release.
But apparently, this isn't panning out in reality. The bean counters rarely care whether the devs are producing quality work. They are concerned with profitable work.
So...from the gamers perspective? AoC and WAR may be a huge let down. But from the bean counters perspective, they have hundreds of thousands of people giving them 15 bucks a month. Gamers know that those could be millions of subs each month, if only the games were polished. But how do you convince the person giving up the cash that they are 'guarenteed' millions of subs if they just put up more money up front.
If I had someone walk into my office and say, "I know for a fact that if you give me 30 million dollars now, I can capture as many subs as WoW", oh yeah, but youll have to wait 10 years". I would laugh them out of the office or they'd have to show me some EXTREMELY good data to prove their case.
On the other hand, if they said, "I believe we have a game that could capture wow sub numbers, give me 10 million now, in 2 years we will release the 'core' game, and then you can see what you are investing in". MUCH easier to swallow.
But I tell you what, if you are willing, give ME 30 million dollars. I guarentee you that in 10 years I will give you a fully polished game that will capture WoW subs. PM me your email and we can get the ball rolling. Not convinced? Now you know why we get unfinished games on release.
yeah but if you were around of the WoW launch it wasnt the best launch, they still have to put out alot of patches and updates to improve there mistakes. if you look at the popuation of WoW in its first months it was quite small compared to now but after the first few patches the population increased.
Played: Archlord, GW, RFO, Knight Online, Silkroad, WoW, Rappelz, shaiya, Flyff, Fury, Space Cowboy, Perfect World Beta, Rakion, sword of the new world, Linage 1 and 2, Savage 1
yeah but if you were around of the WoW launch it wasnt the best launch, they still have to put out alot of patches and updates to improve there mistakes. if you look at the popuation of WoW in its first months it was quite small compared to now but after the first few patches the population increased.
The thing about wows release, was the servers were terribly laggy, but the actual game was there, it worked, it was A LOT of FUN. Despite the lag situation. The actual game itself was able to hold the population despite the lag issues. Why are there games with tons less lag on release, but hold far less retention?
I think the most important thing to consider here as to why MMOs launch the way they do is RETURN ON INVESTMENT. MMOs naturally have a much longer development cycle than any single player title (unless you're Valve). Five years is about the average development time when you consider the pre-production stage; this is the stage no one ever hears about, because usually the title wont be announced until a quarter of the way into production (Pre-alpha - Alpha) and sometimes later.
At the very least, it costs about 20 million dollars (and usually much more than that) to fund an entire MMO development cycle, unless of course you're an independent company who has very few employees with very few expenses.
Game development companies are either funded through a publisher, (usually publisher, or both) a 3rd party investor (Venture Capital, Seed, Angel), and in combination with bits of revenue generated from previous games(if previous games exist). When thinking about revenue generated from previous games, we have to take into account for the publisher or investor (or both) cut on profits; this usually leaves the developer with a lot less than you would think.
So, to sum this up -- developers usually don't have a choice of when to release their game; the people who paid upfront to have this game developed want their return on investment as soon as possible.
So why don't these influence pedallers (investors publishers) allow developers to continue developing until the game is content and feature complete? It's likely that waiting until the game is complete will increase profits gained over time, but they've (the investors, publishers) already spent millions of dollars on the project, and likely don't want to cough up more than they absolutely need to, so they rely on the ability to patch the game; the game launches, people buy it, and some people resubscribe = revenue generated. This eases the pain on the money suppliers, and even if the game releases too early and a portion of consumers decide not to resubscribe due to imperfections, the game in most cases will still sustain a decently sized player base to where eventually, profit is made.
Examples:
AoC
Warhammer
HellGate London
EQ2
WoW
and the list goes on, just try not to jump to conclusions that it's always the developers fault, because in most cases it's not at all.
The thing about wows release, was the servers were terribly laggy, but the actual game was there, it worked, it was A LOT of FUN. Despite the lag situation. The actual game itself was able to hold the population despite the lag issues. Why are there games with tons less lag on release, but hold far less retention?
Exactly. I had a brand new Porche. It was a great car. It didn't have a steering wheel though. But just because it was undrivable didn't make it a bad car. The car was all still there, you just couldn't drive it. I see all these other people driving their cars the day they bought them, but not me - who cares though the car is still great.
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This is simply ludicrous. Who cares which part of the Blizzard operation screwed up. Just because the game was there and 'finished' as you say didn't make the game any more playable between the queue and server issues. It is still a failure on the part of the business that brought you the game - just as you say 'unfinished' games are. If you can split hairs when it comes to WoW, then you see why fans of other games allow themselves to 'split hairs'. And just because your issue pisses you off, it doesn't mean you should gain control to decide what should piss off other gamers. They will split their hairs the way they choose, just as you have done. Its a free country. I'm sorry, I don't mind the 'unfinishedness' of games nearly as much as you do. Nothing you can say will ever convince me of it. I simply don't feel sorry enough for your bad experience to change the way I spend money and enjoy my time off.
And you even point out that these 'unfinished' games are playable day 1 without the same server issues and queue issues WoW had. Y'know why? Because these companies learned from Blizzard's huge FAILURE at launch.
I couldn't play WoW for 2 and a half weeks after release. And I had just paid them 50 bucks for the game and put my credit card in for 15 more bucks after my first month. I did not receive services I had paid for until 2 and a half weeks after I was suppose to get them. That is every single bit as valid an argument as yours. You don't just pay for a finished product, you pay for a playable product. Your paying for their servers too.
And btw, I told you to wire me 30 million dollars and in ten years development time I'd give you a polished finished mmo. Haven't heard from you. Are you still skeptical you'd get your money back? It'd be polished. It'd be finished. So give me 30 million dollars. Or are you starting to understand why developers are having a hard time convincing their bean counters?
I agree with the OP. I wish these new mmo's would quit shooting themselves in the foot. It's like the people at the top are completely clueless at the crap condition they are releasing their games. Either that or they know it's crap and are just hoping to sell boxes.
The thing about wows release, was the servers were terribly laggy, but the actual game was there, it worked, it was A LOT of FUN. Despite the lag situation. The actual game itself was able to hold the population despite the lag issues. Why are there games with tons less lag on release, but hold far less retention?
Exactly. I had a brand new Porche. It was a great car. It didn't have a steering wheel though. But just because it was undrivable didn't make it a bad car. The car was all still there, you just couldn't drive it. I see all these other people driving their cars the day they bought them, but not me - who cares though the car is still great.
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This is simply ludicrous. Who cares which part of the Blizzard operation screwed up. Just because the game was there and 'finished' as you say didn't make the game any more playable between the queue and server issues. It is still a failure on the part of the business that brought you the game - just as you say 'unfinished' games are. If you can split hairs when it comes to WoW, then you see why fans of other games allow themselves to 'split hairs'. And just because your issue pisses you off, it doesn't mean you should gain control to decide what should piss off other gamers. They will split their hairs the way they choose, just as you have done. Its a free country. I'm sorry, I don't mind the 'unfinishedness' of games nearly as much as you do. Nothing you can say will ever convince me of it. I simply don't feel sorry enough for your bad experience to change the way I spend money and enjoy my time off.
And you even point out that these 'unfinished' games are playable day 1 without the same server issues and queue issues WoW had. Y'know why? Because these companies learned from Blizzard's huge FAILURE at launch.
I couldn't play WoW for 2 and a half weeks after release. And I had just paid them 50 bucks for the game and put my credit card in for 15 more bucks after my first month. I did not receive services I had paid for until 2 and a half weeks after I was suppose to get them. That is every single bit as valid an argument as yours. You don't just pay for a finished product, you pay for a playable product. Your paying for their servers too.
And btw, I told you to wire me 30 million dollars and in ten years development time I'd give you a polished finished mmo. Haven't heard from you. Are you still skeptical you'd get your money back? It'd be polished. It'd be finished. So give me 30 million dollars. Or are you starting to understand why developers are having a hard time convincing their bean counters?
Then why don't they retain/grow from release? But rather lose more then 70-80% of their box sales in subscribers and then never grow?
I agree. Its all hype hype hype until it releases and then all fanbois defend their game. They spend so many years developing and the simplest things go wrong. See WAR.. world of scenarios online. No anti aliasing by default and horrible performance.
This topic is in regards to the fanbois on this forum. We aren't new to online gaming, mmorpgs aren't new and unique. We don't have to deal with your crappy release anymore. Yet the excuse that people still use "It's release, give it time to polish. The other games weren't polished at release either" Simply doesn't fly, and it's been proven OVER AND OVER. Yet the fans still use it. If you release a mmo, you have to be ready to go. You have to be able to stand against the current mmo titans. If you release space game you have to compete vs EVE, if you release a leveling quester, you have to compete with WoW. If you release a PvP centric game, you have to compete with the pvp aspect of current mmos. Not to just be something different, but vastly inferior(AoC and WAR). And then hope to be able to compete with the main games in a few years. Because in a few years, those games you might be FINALLY catching up to, have already moved ahead into bigger and better territory. Why would anyone settle for a poorly released game, when they have the option to play ones which have already established themselves? They wouldn't. And us as gamers need to realize this, and stop letting developers believe this. Halfway through development, a developer should have a clear idea of how much they will truely be able to get done by release. The problem is they still TRY to get too much in. And nothing is truely remarkable and nothing really makes it stand out.
Give it a few months? Maybe for some bugs Give it a few years? Maybe to get extra content to last me after i experience the content in game for those years
Sorry, but there is no excuse for mmos to not come out on day 1 swinging. If it's a buggy unbalanced, contentless, empty mess, then there is no excuse, the game simply isn't very good. And it will die. AoC and WAR both suffered the same fate, high box sales, TERRIBLE retention. Tabula Rasa is going down in flames, HGL is going down. AA died, AC2 died. Vanguard, and MxO both would have died without SOE's life support. Then theres the few which are still clinging onto hope but never really amounted to anything, PotBS, ryzom, shadowbane, swg, ww2o.
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i never expect much from a MMORPG release, so when the release sucks i'm not as disapointed as all the fanbois reading and believing every single word said by the developers who "dont lie because the company has other reputable games on the market" (lol AOC and WAR). If you expect too much, then you will be disapointed and you will be makeing threads like this on the forum. If you dont expect much you dont get your hopes crushed, because there are no hopes to be crushed.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
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I think some very interesting parallels can be drawn between this topic and human development.
As children, we are coddled by our parents and able to make many mistakes without consequence, but we also have no freedoms.
As teenagers, we are provided more freedoms and start to feel the first sting of real consequences, but ultimately parents are still responsible for our well being. A failure of the teenager is often seen as a failure of the parent. Teenagers are famous world wide for thinking their lives during this phase are more important and difficult than everyone else.
It is not until adulthood that our own mistakes and the consequences are fully felt, are fully ours alone, but also when we obtain the glory of total freedom.
I think these three phases of life are analogous to the different kinds of mmos out there. Some are nothing more than a ride on rails, pre determined experiences with no way to make mistakes. This is like the child. Some give you more freedom but only weak repercussions for mistakes. This is like the teenager. And some give you total control but total accountability for actions. This is like the adult.
I won't list what games I think fit in which categories
And I am not insinuating one typeof game is better than any other. There are plenty of adults that wish they could be teenagers or kids again. As there are children that wish they could be adults. So it follows, there are all types of people that are looking for different things out of life. So it would make sense that the more types of games out there, the greater chance everyone can find something they like.
The only enemy in all this are the people trying to make the genre have less to choose from, because something doesn't fit the world they want to play in.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?
I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.
Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.
MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.
No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that
But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.
Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.
I agree that more MMO's need to focus on specific niche markets. No MMO out there can cater to all playstyles not even WoW and it would be foolish to try to. Once a company tries to cater to all playstyles the end result becomes watered down. The reason being the majority of the costumers will dictate what is the most accepted way to play the game and any good developer will atleast cater to that.
Look at EVE, it is a prime example of niche market and it is a success because of it. EVE does not look remotely like any other MMO on the market and they cater to their customers needs. They can atleast stand out from the herd of clones and provide content that no other MMO currently provides. I do not play EVE myself because it does not suit me, but I applaud them for being different and more focused.
Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.
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What is the niche vs. mass appeal argument exactly? That one produces a more fun game? Or a greater financial success? What constitutes a win in this fictional war between mmos?
To answer the former, you insinuate that one very specific type of gamer is the only one that matters, since everyone has their own tastes, and not everyone likes WoW. I don't think anyone argues with the financial success of WoW. But many feel that catering to too many playstyles at once results in a watered down experience for many. WoW has certainly been described as such. Wow is good at certain things. Niche games are good at other things. Which game is better depends entirely on which things you feel are important, and which arent.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
It's all relative. If a studio can put together a small team and acquire a great little niche, they can do well for themselves. Look at CCP which is on TV now advertising EVE, making other games, and buying other studios.
What's a success?
Blizzard has to share the dibs with all their stockholders and their owners. A small studio that can kickout a moderately successful MMO can kick back on those royalties and expand aggressively similar to CCP
Becoming clearer now? Whats easier to make- a WoW clone that the WoW fans will ignore anyway or something thats aimed at a niche?
Going after WoW is just too risky. See, if you liked WoW the smart thing to do woulda been to support WAR/AoC. But since you guys pissed on it guess what titles are getting funded now?
Earthrise, Champions Online, APB, WELL Online, Jumpgate Evolution, etc.
Its your own fault. Guess where my money be going? EVE Online. So that will help show publishers many of us want something fresh
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To a certain extent the fans are part of the problem. They hype games up to such a high level theirs no way the game can live up to their expectations. While its great to get cuaght up in the flush of a new MMO that might be the one we've dreamed of its best to always keep ones feet firmly on the ground and not loose touch with reality and whats logically possible.
In all fairness, WAR had a very smooth launch - a few problems with log-in queues but not a whole lot else wrong with the game. I didn't experience any of the nightmares of Star Wars Galaxies, where first I was told by the customer service rep I needed a major system upgrade to play (my computer specs were well above the minimum advertised). Then my character disappears from the server and I'm told, "sorry."
Mythic has also done an incredible job in fixing known problems and giving players what they want, usually within days. I logged on for the Heavy Metal event and most of the top servers were hopping. Sure, the game experienced some drop-off since launch - but that's because WOTLK came out. I fully expect WAR to be like LOTRO - a little bit of a slow start, but the population will continue to grow until it hits a million + players again.
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So I take it your honeymoon with WAR is over? Not to long ago you were talking it up like it was the cure for cancer or something like that. You want to point the "fanboy" finger at others you should be careful as I and I'm sure a lot of others remember not to long ago when you were the biggest WAR fanboy on this site. Not trying to insult you just stating my opinion on the subject. Nothing you say or do is going to stop rampant fanboyism as it's been around longer than games have. You better just get used to it as it's not going anywhere.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Hm, Bren's right don't give out advice if you're not going to follow it yourself. I forgot; you were a huge WAR fan.
The problem with WAR, is not the game, it's nothing that could have been predicted.
Empty servers.
Barren Areas.
Quiet community.
Beta was more populated, than release. That's what killed the game for me.
I'll say it again, the reason i quit war, and why the community is generally leaving WAR, is because the game was designed for more people in each area, than what the servers upon release can support. And to add insult to injury, there were too many servers.
It's a server/launch problem, admittedly a major major one. But the actual game was fun enough(i played in beta btw, and it's why i was so surprised it was like it was at release)
just like to say:
prior to wow you had UO, EQ1, SWG, and a few other games.
EQ1 boasted almost 500k players, SWG 350k.
hardly desolate in the mmorpg world prior to wow, and not all asians.
Heres the thing. Theres a big difference between having a few bugs, and being broken/empty.
Let's look at wow.
Servers were overcrowded, not a issue with the game
The server system wasn't setup for that many people, a issue with the servers.
A few bugged quests, to be expected
A few bugged abilities, again to be expected.
Then let's look at AoC
Servers crashed a lot, but since they instanced zones each instance crashed seperately hence leaving a illusion of solidarity. It's a release problem.
Completely worthless classes, and almost every feat in the "talent trees" broken. Not acceptable.
BArren levels which required grinding to get through.
COMPLETELY UNTESTED/BALANCED CRAFTING SYSTEM.
Utterly trashy and shitty itemization system.
Bugged instances
Terrible respawn times on quest mobs.
No PvP systems in place(acceptable with wow, since it had a decent pve system). But AoCs PvE was terrible and broken also.
Terrible world design.
Huge Memory leaks.
Can you honestly say that AoC was okay to release like that? Just because of patches.
It's understandable to release with some bugs, perhaps server issues. But the game itself should be whole and playable, with the majority in and working.(as wow was, again judging by the current mmorpg population, nobody expected wow to be as big of a hit as it was).
I'll say it again.
Us as gamers don't have to accept crappy releases, and poor games. If developers can't cut the game on their budget. It's not our fault, and they deserve to fail.
We don't NEED to put up with it. And look at WAR and AoCs floundering, Vanguards failure, etc etc. It's all proof of this.
Well first of all you can not compare a VERY low tech game like WOW that copied Everquest to the tee.Therefore they had the game template no thinking there,then they used low tech,they would be total noobs to mess that up,so they had no excuses if they did botch it up.
AOC tried a slightly different approach and designed there own game template ,they did not outright copy another game.They have a much higher tech,that means tweaking to get it runnable for many.
I think the fact that so many players ripped through 50-60 levels so fast shows the game was ready,there is no doubt about it.First of all if it was not, then why the heck did so many power level so fast?would they not just leave the game if it was in such bad shape?
Other factors are that WOW had only ONE game to compete with at there release unlike nowadays there are players that have a lot more gaming knowledge and far too many games to choose from.Also when mentioning about the WOW ordeal,you seem to forget that you already paid them once so adding it in later and charging you again is not good.It would not have hurt them back in the day because fans were not crying for more content in games and different types of games,they were all happy with the EQ clones.
It is a MUCH different world out there amongst MMORPG gamers than when WOW launched,it is like night and day.If WOW released today,everyone would be saying "WTF another Everquest clone"we need that like we need a hole in the head.They were lucky to get away with that back in the day.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The problem with WAR, is not the game, it's nothing that could have been predicted.
Empty servers.
Barren Areas.
Quiet community.
Beta was more populated, than release. That's what killed the game for me.
I'll say it again, the reason i quit war, and why the community is generally leaving WAR, is because the game was designed for more people in each area, than what the servers upon release can support. And to add insult to injury, there were too many servers.
It's a server/launch problem, admittedly a major major one. But the actual game was fun enough(i played in beta btw, and it's why i was so surprised it was like it was at release)
Okay fair enough. I think I'm clear now on that part of the topic. I thought you were saying fanboi's shouldnt even try WAR to begin with. It appears I was not clear on that point at all
Here's my take.
In this climate of mmo's I think reality will be the continued cycle of unfinished games.
Why?
The fact is that a development team generally speaking is not holding the purse strings.
This means that the developers have to continually politic and shmooz the accountants to get more money to finish their game before release.
This is a very very difficult sale. Let's say, taking an arbitrary number, that you know it will take 30 million dollars to fully polish your game.
Would it be easier to convince the money holders 30 million now, all now.
Or 15 million now, release game, game does well, invest more + the added bonus of sub $.
If you were investing in a game, would you be more willing to lose 30 million or 15 million? That's the question. The profit margin is potentially the same.
A fully polished game on release is a huge huge huge amount of money to gamble. No one knows what subscription numbers will be on release no matter how polished the game is. IMO, WAR is every bit as polished as WoW was on release, and judging by the hype and fanboism, it would have been very difficult for an investor to NOT see $$$$$ around the corner. Although WAR is doing well, it certainly isn't anywhere near the numbers hype would have had us believe it would be. How does that make an investor feel the next time they are asked for all the money up front? A little itchy to say the least.
And it isn't just money it is also TIME. How much time has been invested in developing these 'unfinished' games? Vanguard was like 5 years. WAR like 3 years. AoC, what 3 to 5 years? dunno. Each of these games should have had more time to finish. Some say another 6 months or year, in VG's case it probably could have taken 2 or 3 years more, as it is still got huge big holes in it.
So you also have to convince them to give you more money and that it could be 6, 7 years, maybe even a decade before they see any return on that initial investment. Tell me, what do you think the gaming business atmosphere will be like in 2018. If you think you can predict business trends in 'luxury' sales that far into the future you'd be crazy. And the investor would think you would be too.
Therefore:
Developers have a different tact. It is much easier to get enough money to get the game started, release it and then you have not only revenue coming in, but you can use those sub numbers (if they are good - and face it; the devs all think their game will do well) to get more financing.
This is a golden solution for the people gambling their money on an unknown. They can invest a little money with the possibility of high returns while lowering the risk of losing the entire sum.
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Now that being said; what investors have to become convinced of is that their risk of the game failing exponentially rises in relation to how polished the game is at release.
But apparently, this isn't panning out in reality. The bean counters rarely care whether the devs are producing quality work. They are concerned with profitable work.
So...from the gamers perspective? AoC and WAR may be a huge let down. But from the bean counters perspective, they have hundreds of thousands of people giving them 15 bucks a month. Gamers know that those could be millions of subs each month, if only the games were polished. But how do you convince the person giving up the cash that they are 'guarenteed' millions of subs if they just put up more money up front.
If I had someone walk into my office and say, "I know for a fact that if you give me 30 million dollars now, I can capture as many subs as WoW", oh yeah, but youll have to wait 10 years". I would laugh them out of the office or they'd have to show me some EXTREMELY good data to prove their case.
On the other hand, if they said, "I believe we have a game that could capture wow sub numbers, give me 10 million now, in 2 years we will release the 'core' game, and then you can see what you are investing in". MUCH easier to swallow.
But I tell you what, if you are willing, give ME 30 million dollars. I guarentee you that in 10 years I will give you a fully polished game that will capture WoW subs. PM me your email and we can get the ball rolling. Not convinced? Now you know why we get unfinished games on release.
yeah but if you were around of the WoW launch it wasnt the best launch, they still have to put out alot of patches and updates to improve there mistakes. if you look at the popuation of WoW in its first months it was quite small compared to now but after the first few patches the population increased.
Played: Archlord, GW, RFO, Knight Online, Silkroad, WoW, Rappelz, shaiya, Flyff, Fury, Space Cowboy, Perfect World Beta, Rakion, sword of the new world, Linage 1 and 2, Savage 1
Playing: CSS
The thing about wows release, was the servers were terribly laggy, but the actual game was there, it worked, it was A LOT of FUN. Despite the lag situation. The actual game itself was able to hold the population despite the lag issues. Why are there games with tons less lag on release, but hold far less retention?
I think the most important thing to consider here as to why MMOs launch the way they do is RETURN ON INVESTMENT. MMOs naturally have a much longer development cycle than any single player title (unless you're Valve). Five years is about the average development time when you consider the pre-production stage; this is the stage no one ever hears about, because usually the title wont be announced until a quarter of the way into production (Pre-alpha - Alpha) and sometimes later.
At the very least, it costs about 20 million dollars (and usually much more than that) to fund an entire MMO development cycle, unless of course you're an independent company who has very few employees with very few expenses.
Game development companies are either funded through a publisher, (usually publisher, or both) a 3rd party investor (Venture Capital, Seed, Angel), and in combination with bits of revenue generated from previous games(if previous games exist). When thinking about revenue generated from previous games, we have to take into account for the publisher or investor (or both) cut on profits; this usually leaves the developer with a lot less than you would think.
So, to sum this up -- developers usually don't have a choice of when to release their game; the people who paid upfront to have this game developed want their return on investment as soon as possible.
So why don't these influence pedallers (investors publishers) allow developers to continue developing until the game is content and feature complete? It's likely that waiting until the game is complete will increase profits gained over time, but they've (the investors, publishers) already spent millions of dollars on the project, and likely don't want to cough up more than they absolutely need to, so they rely on the ability to patch the game; the game launches, people buy it, and some people resubscribe = revenue generated. This eases the pain on the money suppliers, and even if the game releases too early and a portion of consumers decide not to resubscribe due to imperfections, the game in most cases will still sustain a decently sized player base to where eventually, profit is made.
Examples:
AoC
Warhammer
HellGate London
EQ2
WoW
and the list goes on, just try not to jump to conclusions that it's always the developers fault, because in most cases it's not at all.
Exactly. I had a brand new Porche. It was a great car. It didn't have a steering wheel though. But just because it was undrivable didn't make it a bad car. The car was all still there, you just couldn't drive it. I see all these other people driving their cars the day they bought them, but not me - who cares though the car is still great.
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This is simply ludicrous. Who cares which part of the Blizzard operation screwed up. Just because the game was there and 'finished' as you say didn't make the game any more playable between the queue and server issues. It is still a failure on the part of the business that brought you the game - just as you say 'unfinished' games are. If you can split hairs when it comes to WoW, then you see why fans of other games allow themselves to 'split hairs'. And just because your issue pisses you off, it doesn't mean you should gain control to decide what should piss off other gamers. They will split their hairs the way they choose, just as you have done. Its a free country. I'm sorry, I don't mind the 'unfinishedness' of games nearly as much as you do. Nothing you can say will ever convince me of it. I simply don't feel sorry enough for your bad experience to change the way I spend money and enjoy my time off.
And you even point out that these 'unfinished' games are playable day 1 without the same server issues and queue issues WoW had. Y'know why? Because these companies learned from Blizzard's huge FAILURE at launch.
I couldn't play WoW for 2 and a half weeks after release. And I had just paid them 50 bucks for the game and put my credit card in for 15 more bucks after my first month. I did not receive services I had paid for until 2 and a half weeks after I was suppose to get them. That is every single bit as valid an argument as yours. You don't just pay for a finished product, you pay for a playable product. Your paying for their servers too.
And btw, I told you to wire me 30 million dollars and in ten years development time I'd give you a polished finished mmo. Haven't heard from you. Are you still skeptical you'd get your money back? It'd be polished. It'd be finished. So give me 30 million dollars. Or are you starting to understand why developers are having a hard time convincing their bean counters?
I agree with the OP. I wish these new mmo's would quit shooting themselves in the foot. It's like the people at the top are completely clueless at the crap condition they are releasing their games. Either that or they know it's crap and are just hoping to sell boxes.
Exactly. I had a brand new Porche. It was a great car. It didn't have a steering wheel though. But just because it was undrivable didn't make it a bad car. The car was all still there, you just couldn't drive it. I see all these other people driving their cars the day they bought them, but not me - who cares though the car is still great.
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This is simply ludicrous. Who cares which part of the Blizzard operation screwed up. Just because the game was there and 'finished' as you say didn't make the game any more playable between the queue and server issues. It is still a failure on the part of the business that brought you the game - just as you say 'unfinished' games are. If you can split hairs when it comes to WoW, then you see why fans of other games allow themselves to 'split hairs'. And just because your issue pisses you off, it doesn't mean you should gain control to decide what should piss off other gamers. They will split their hairs the way they choose, just as you have done. Its a free country. I'm sorry, I don't mind the 'unfinishedness' of games nearly as much as you do. Nothing you can say will ever convince me of it. I simply don't feel sorry enough for your bad experience to change the way I spend money and enjoy my time off.
And you even point out that these 'unfinished' games are playable day 1 without the same server issues and queue issues WoW had. Y'know why? Because these companies learned from Blizzard's huge FAILURE at launch.
I couldn't play WoW for 2 and a half weeks after release. And I had just paid them 50 bucks for the game and put my credit card in for 15 more bucks after my first month. I did not receive services I had paid for until 2 and a half weeks after I was suppose to get them. That is every single bit as valid an argument as yours. You don't just pay for a finished product, you pay for a playable product. Your paying for their servers too.
And btw, I told you to wire me 30 million dollars and in ten years development time I'd give you a polished finished mmo. Haven't heard from you. Are you still skeptical you'd get your money back? It'd be polished. It'd be finished. So give me 30 million dollars. Or are you starting to understand why developers are having a hard time convincing their bean counters?
Then why don't they retain/grow from release? But rather lose more then 70-80% of their box sales in subscribers and then never grow?
I agree. Its all hype hype hype until it releases and then all fanbois defend their game. They spend so many years developing and the simplest things go wrong. See WAR.. world of scenarios online. No anti aliasing by default and horrible performance.
so what's your point?